Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline 20240704

Department of justice at the time. Hes also accused of lying to investigators. Again, it is not the crime, folks. It is the coverup, but there is a delay. De oliveira hasnt secured local counsel to represent him in florida so the judge asked him to return later, next thursday, to go about the arraignment. If all of this sounds familiar, thats because the other trump aide indicted in the classified Documents Case, the valet, walt nauta, twice had his not guilty plea postponed for the very same reason and perhaps youre saying to yourself, what a stroke of bad fortune. Both indicted Trump Associates somehow unable to find a florida lawyer, thereby delaying their trials with the 2024 election fast approaching. Go figure. This afternoon, there are also significant concerns surrounding de oliveiras legal fees, specifically who is going to pay for them. Its reportedly a trump pact and that raises a number of major questions that we will address throughout the hour, but first, consider how this particular moment in time reflects a pattern between the early 2000s and today. Carlos de oliveira went from parking cars and fixing stuff at maralago for around 10,000 a year to filing for bankruptcy before rising to the position of property manager, and the New York Times takes it from there. Quote, The Pact De Oliveira follows is familiar in the world of trump who often uses leverage and obsesses constantly about loilt in his Business Career as a candidate and as president , mr. Trump has frequently plucked subordinates from trouble and obscurity and given them a lifeline and by extension, a sense of obligation to him. Those opportunities and obligations have sometimes come with a cost including, as in the case of mr. De oliveira, serious legal jeopardy, but in terms of legal jeopardy, its actually hard to top trump himself. The maralago Documents Case is after all, onehalf of Special Counsel jack smiths dual investigations. Today trump posted an indictment having to do with january 6th will be coming out any day now. So in the broader scheme, a period of reckoning and consequences for donald trump is really just getting started. Joining our conversation this hour, former u. S. Senator Claire Mccaskill, Betsy Woodruff swann and with me at the table former a Deputy Assistant attorney general harry lipman. Its great to have all of you with us. Betsy, lets start with you and fill in the blanks with what happened. Carlos de oliveira was supposed to be arraigned and figure how he figures into the classified Documents Case and how does the Justice Department proceed from here . Thats right. From the Process Standpoint Oliveira went to court today. The judge told him what the charges against him are, but he did not enter a plea because, as you said, he doesnt yet have local counts will in florida. That will slow things down, but listen, there are a lot of lawyers in florida. So hell only be able to argue for so long that he couldnt find somebody local on the ground to help represent him in this case, and though, of course, hes strictly unlikely to avail himself of this right as any criminal defendant he also has the right to use courtappointed counsel and a public defender available to him. In terms of the way he fits more broadly into this sprawling, classified documents saga, de oliveira was a property manager at maralago, and he worked for trump for many, many years and starting lower on the wrung of trumps former entity. Trump likes having these people who work with him for a long time who build their entire careers around him as a person, around him as a company. Trump cares more than just about everybody about loyalty, about feeling that people are indebted to him and feeling like people owe him something and Carlos De Oliveira would have appeared to fit into that mold given the extraordinary amount of time he spent working for trump and the indictment describes activity that almost feels like it was ripped from a crime tv show. De oliveira and other characters working through hallways in maralago with a flashlight to see if they can find Security Cameras that might have captured wrongdoing and trying to delete an entire server that are reminiscent of the way this trump himself rivalled Hillary Clinton and the way that he and mike called for Hillary Clinton to be locked up and using the same verbage, and called for trumps subordinates to do on his very own behalf. So de oliveiras now an addition to this criminal case against trump points not just to the repetition of themes that weve seen at least as alleged by the Justice Department of trump leaning on subordinates that are, treatmently loyal to engage in activity that he himself didnt want to engage in, but it also points to that extremely granular approach and people that worked at all levels of mara lag and people who were the foot soldiers of trumps entity rather than the more prominent, political allies and government allies that trumps accumulated. Donald trump addressed the indictments this weekend in pennsylvania. I want to play that for our viewers. Watch. They waited two and a half, almost three years so that they could bring them right in the middle of my president ial election because it is Election Interference. Deranged jack smith and the doj will probably bring another case along with the d. A. We have a racist d. A. And crimeridden atlanta. Thats a great badge of honor because im being indicted for you. A badge of honor because im being indicted for you and again, reporting indicates that trump is privately rattled over these indictments. What is the latest on his State Of Mind . What is the reporting on that front particularly with another indictment seemingly on the horizon . Trump continues to be treating his legal troubles like they are actually political troubles. Thats the approach hes taken for so much of his time in public life as hes dealt with all sorts of legal issues related to his actions and now that is very much is continuing. What we are also seeing is trump simultaneously, of course, experiencing the level of concern anyone would experience when they face the Justice Department indictment, but in a turn of events and appearing to have the president ial primary from the fact that hes in so much legal Jep Art P E Trump and his team are very much working to make the most out of these indict ams to use them for fundraising, to use them to suck up all of the media oxygen that otherwise could be focused on republican rivals and of course, in that clip that you just played for trump himself to telegraph that hes some sort of martyr that is taking slings and arrows on behalf of his supporters that if they werent busy criminal charges against him, theyd be bringing criminal charges against the countless people that support him politically which, of course, is just not true. Politically, it is something that he and his team see as helpful and we should expect that to continue for the foreseeable future in the primary. He will continue to continue to project himself as the martyr for his followers, but let me ask yah what we saw today and that is the lack of an arraignment, so to speak. Is it surprising that de oliveira wasnt able to find counsel and this indictment was supposed to happen and two, when you look at the pattern of behavior between what has happened with him and walt nauta, and you cant help, but see a pattern emerge here. One that benefit grinds to a halt and delayed two, three or four weeks this only benefits donald trump in the long run. Absolutely. The goal is to get this past November 2024 and he only needs six more months and the strategy is to do it in bits and pieces and one big chunk. The big chunk being the classified document and in terms of bits and pieces and now ittate up a month in finding local counsel. The short answer to your question its not very hard to find local counsel. Local counsel is someone who pretty much just stands up with you and is not in any sense the strategist that you need and well see when it absolutely is part of the playbook that nauta had. Thats one more bid. One more bid. Check that box. Check that box and little by little were looking at september, october and then an argument by trump, oh, you cant bring it now because its supposed to be december and here we are in may. And it may make sense, but they need, i think, little bits and pieces and so far de oliveira is good for his own starting piece. Let me ask you about the Legal Defense here. So delay is the tactic, but let me play for you what one of trumps lawyers said on fox news this weekend . What was the obstruction of justice because no tapes were deleted. He turned them over and he cooperated as he always does. You will see that every single video, every single Surveillance Tape that was requested was turned over. If President Trump didnt want something turned over i assure you that is something that could have been done, but he never would act like that. Hes the most ethical american i know. Besides that last part, the most ethical american i know, what do you make of that as a legal argument that if he wanted to destroy the tapes, if he wanted to hide something he is certainly competent enough to do it and not get busted. Of course, he isnt. One of the vulnerability, he cant act alone and he always has to act with other people. As a legal matter, its bankrupt. This is a Conspiracy Charge. A Conspiracy Charge is to pursue something illegal and hes definitely done. Theres no requirement that the tapes wind up being deleted. Come on, as soon as he finds out that they want the Surveillance Tape he has a 24minute conversation with de oliveira who along with theres a real gang who couldnt shoot straight aspect that ensues. Theyre in the tunnels and trying to figure it out. The whole idea that there are Surveillance Tapes seem to take them by surprise, but anyway, tell it to the jury. Its really clear that the effort is to delete them and thats all thats require urn the conspiracy law. So its a legal argument thats all wet. Speaking of a gang that cant shoot. De oliveira, one trump employee said who the hell is that . Does that speak to the obscure nature of de oliveiras position in the broader trump world or is this a classic of coffee boy, never knew the guy strategy where he tries to separate himself from aides under scrutiny. If trump would have talked to some of the people higher up and around him maybe lawyers that have now fallen away, they obviously would have said no, you cant delete the Security Tapes after receiving the subpoena for the Security Tapes. Instead, he reached out to someone he perceived was very loyal to him that would have access to the people that would have the Security Tapes and for the first time we have now a direct line from donald trump to a conspiracy to break the law, and what we have is we have this property manager who went to others it try to do what donald trump wanted and would delete this tape and they have come forward and they have provided credible evidence and testimony about what they were told, and they have the phone records. They have the videotape. So this is really a big deal. This would be like us having pence testifying that trump said i want to steal the election. Or this would be like mark meadows admitting to a grand jury that yes, trump was trying to make up that the election was a fraud when he knew it wasnt. This is a big deal and if you read the indictment it is unbelievable powerful what they have laid out in this indictment. This is a very strong case. To your point, claire. Weve discussed this moblike behavior or nature of trump and his inner circle before we saw it with people like Michael Cohen, and i want to play this clip from Michael Cohen when he was describing the way trump asks for things. Watch. It would be no different if i said thats the nicestlooking tie ive ever seen, isnt it . What are you going to do . Are you going to fight with him . No. Its the nicest looking tie ive ever seen. Thats how he speaks. He doesnt give you questions. He doesnt give you orders. He speaks in a code, and i understand the code because ive been around him for a decade. It is your impression that others who work for him understand the code, as well . Most people, yes. How does jack smith decipher that code for a jury . Because, you know, we have, potentially as we saw in the indictment the evidence that Carlos De Oliveira says the boss wants the server deleted and how do you know that that code is explicit enough for jurors to know this came from donald trump or this is something donald trump wanted . Ultimately, and this is all about the jury deciding whos telling the truth, and this all boils down to credibility of the witnesses. Clearly, jack smith believes the witness, and i think the witness that is has come forward and told all this is, in fact, the i. T. Guy that was asked to delete it and said i dont think i can do that. I think thats where they got this. Thats where they got the admissions from the property manager that he has been asked to get it deleted by boss, and that is admission and furtherance of the conspiracy and that is hearsay, so it would be an omission. Its a pretty strong case is the only way that the jury can find out if donald trump did not comet in The Con Spur See that theyre simply not believable and that theyre lying. Harry, what do you think about the evidence jack smith might have, and the strength that hes bringing the Superseding Indictment and a prosecutor would not be opening that layer of scrutiny if the evidence was, i would argue, substantial. If it werent. 100 . First, i want to be clear, to claires point, when you say Surveillance Tapes, once the government has said we want Surveillance Tapes you might as well be Flushing Cocaine or guns. These are now evidence of a crime, the United States wants them. To credibility, look, whats the possibility of them to lie and these are flunkies that had conversations with trump. To your point, remember, theres a cost here. It possibly will engender greater delay. Smith is aware of that and heres what i think happened. I think he went to de oliveira as he did, and said look, ive got you lying to the fbi three different ways and if you dont cooperate were going to bring obstruction charges. Ive got those on you, too, and de oliveira said in the first instance no and its just his prosecutorial style and creedo, i would have done the same thing. I told you i would do it and you didnt cooperate, here you go. See you in court, and so part of whats happening is him following through with hard no negotiations which still may bear fruit, but yes, without a doubt. You can read the indictment and they have them there to write and theres no other possible explanation for anything that happened. To your point, he wouldnt have done it knowing how much the cost of delay is and the fact that he probably anticipated some of these tactics early on. Betry swann, claire, harry, stek around. We will talk to you throughout the hour and whats in the classify Documents Case, and details as you just heard was jaw dropping and just what jack smith and his team about how vulnerable americas seekets may have been as they moved freely from florida and new jersey. Plus new questions that doj prosecutors are raising in millions of legal fees that donald trump is paying out to his witnesses. There are multiple indictments well head for george to be coming into effort fos overturn the president ial election and all those more when Deadline White House continues after this quick break. Dont go anywhere. After th quick break dont go anywhere. Its got to be tide. fan 1 there ya go thats what im talkin about josh allen is this your plan to watch the game today . hero fan uh, yea. 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Ill show you an example. He said that i wanted to attack iran. Isnt it amazing . I have a big pile of papers this thing these were the papers. This was done by the military, and given to me. I think we can probably, right . I dont know. Well have to see. Well have to try to declassify, right . See, as president i could have declassified it. Now i cant, but this is classified. Yeah. Now we have a problem. Isnt that interesting . Its so cool. So the Superseding Indictment confirms that this new count, count 32 is, in fact, quote, the document that trump possessed and showed on july 21st, 2021 and files it under presentation concerning Military Activity in a foreign country. Lets bring in former cia director now and msnbc Senior Security analyst brennan. I want to continue with this indictment for a moment because they elaborate for a moment between january 2021 and august of 2022, the Maralago Club hosted more than 150 social, vents that included weddings, movie premieres and fund raisers and all of them drawing Tens Of Thousands of guests. What is your reaction to this confirmed recklessness with our National Security and now possible accountability . Well, ayman, it confirms that donald trump divulged to unauthorized individuals some of the most Sensitive Information within the u. S. Government which is military plans in the event of some type of engagement overseas and we had that one incident in bedminster new jersey, but given the amount of individuals that passed through maralago and the number of individuals that he dealt with, you have to wonder who else he might have talked to including foreigners who had visited him and so it really does just underscore the recklessness as you point out of donald trump and what really is amazing that that recklessness and the u. S. Military relies on the element of surprise in order to be effective in terms of its Military Operations and also relies on the element of supplies to keep its personnel safe and by divulging his information he has put the lives of u. S. Personnel at risk. It is so puzzling whyo many individuals within trumps maga base who have children or spouses or siblings in the u. S. Military would be dismissive of his recklessness which puts their loved ones at risk and thats what i think incredibly important that this indictment proceed focusing on his recklessness in terms of divulging this information that is so critical of our National Security and to the safety and welfare of u. S. Military personnel. How do you begin, certainly from the position that you had, how do you begin to assess the damage. We can confirm there was travel at some point between florida and bedminster. We dont know who transported that document. We dont know who has seen that document. We dont know if somebody copied that document and as former Counter Intelligence peter strzok said during these 150 social events at maralago theres plenty of Photo Evidence that the door to the Basement Area was frequently open and unattended during those events. How do you begin as a former National Security official begin to assess the damage that this document had been floating around for months without anyone knowing where it was . Its exceptionally difficult task and possibly impossible one because there are so many documents involved and so many sensitive programs that rely on so many sensitive technical Collection Systems and Human Sources abroad and if that information has been exposed and has been compromised we dont know the extent of the damage because theres no way to determine exactly who might have access to that information and what information donald trump might have shared with others. I know my former colleagues are doing well level best based on those documents based on what were relied upon and to see if there were any other indications that might have been compromised. They might have to suspend those activities and put those sources and technical sources on ice, but it is quite a dilemma for the Intelligence Community to try to understand the scope, the extent and the gravity of the damage that has been done. How do you envision this ending, this saga of the National Security lapse because of donald trump. Jack smith waited to add this charge even though hes had this iran document and weve known about it and this could significantly add to trumps criminal exposure and how do you envision this particular Situation Ending . What i find most horrifying is donald trump is the leading republican candidate for president. It is clear that anybody who did this could not have achieved any type of security clearance, but he has the potential to be back in the white house and the oval office with access to the most sensitive secrets and the most sensitive National Security information that our country has, and so i know that our Intelligence Community and our Law Enforcement community and others are trying their best to try to understand the, tent of the damage that has been done, but what i worry about is that somebody as reckless, as careless and irresponsible as donald trump continues to lead the republican pac in terms of the president ial election. That to me is whats most concerning and most worrisome about our countrys National Security in the future. Harry, how does jack smith prosecute a case of this magnitude with very sensitive, Classified Information . Does the content of that document even matter to the jurors, to the courtroom or is it about the fact that he just had it and was reckless with it . So charge is simply that he had it under the indictment, its defined in a certain way and its not based on the content. However, this is remember i was talking about bits and pieces and the one big chunk. The one big chunk, the defense will have a right to say we really need this part of it to give context to the jury, maybe even some other information, as well and there have been cases in the past when the doj has actually folded its hand rather than go forward. Its a technique that people will do in classified documents. Thats on judge theyll say, hey, this is not a big document. They want this out in the public so they can basically tell everyone its not as sensitive. This one in particular, were it not for what Director Brennan was saying it would be almost comical and it so shows that trump wakes up lying and lies all day. Hes pretends he has it and then its in the indictment and then oh, no, no, no. I didnt have it, and now it turns out that he really did, and the content is very sensitive, but the charge doesnt depend on the content and thats why there are 32 there. This one, i think, was added because it has such probative value because of the lies he tells to brett bayer and in the public sphere. I can lose these arguments to the judge and ill still have enough to really go after him because again, its not the content that matters. Its the fact of its classification. Director brennan, thank you so much for your time. Always a pleasure, sir. Thank you. Coming up, it is no surprise that trumps legal troubles are costing a lot of money, but as those bills stack up, not just for himself, but for his employees, now turned witnesses, there is new Reporting Signaling prosecutors are looking at potential conflicts of interest in those payments. Well get into that next. 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The first time you made a sale online with godaddy was also the first time you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. We just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. Start an easy to build, powerful website for free with a partner that always puts you first. Start for free at godaddy. Com as the disgraced expresident donald trump faces 40 criminal counts in connection to the mishandling of classified do you means and another looming indictment from Special Counsel jack smith, of course, along with the State Charges in new york and even potentially future State Charges in Fulton County, georgia, you might be wondering how is trump paying for all those legal fees . Now a new report from the Washington Post says trumps pac is footing the bill. Trumps Political Group spent 40 million on legal costs in the first half of 2023 to defend trump, his advisers and others according to people familiar with the matter. Prosecutors have raised pointed questions about who is paying for their lawyers and why. People familiar with the questions said, trump advisers told the Washington Post that the pac who raises most of its money from smalldollar contributions by Trump Supporters across the country, is actually footing the legal bills for almost anyone drawn into the investigations who requests help from the former president and his advisers. We are back with former senator Claire Mccaskill and harry littman. This kind of spending is officially legal, but the question is more about the ethics of it and its an unprecedented number to spend 40 million out of a Political Action committee. What concerns you most about whats at play here . Well, theres a lot about this that stinks, even if it might be technically legal. What really stinks is how hes treating his donors that he is coming to them and saying help me reelect me, help me be president again, help me be your leader and in reality hes milking them. Many of them who are not wealthy people, giving 10, 15 to pay for lawyers. Highbrow, expensive lawyers for a huge group of people that were silly enough to go to work with him without an Employment Rider that provided lawyers because anyone who works for donald trump eventually needs a lawyer. Harry, let me read for you from the Washington Post part of the arrangement that during the course of their investigation, prosecutors have repeatedly asked witnesses about how and why entities have paid for witnesses to get lawyers. They have asked whether legal representation was designed to shield trump from criminal exposure and people familiar with those exchanges. Prosecutors have asked to see legal agreements of legal retainers according to subpoenas reviewed by the post. What kind of charges do you think prosecutors are considering connected to this exposure . Well, remember, smith in the first instance is actually looking at the establishment of this pac which may be bogus in and of itself because and many a Wire Fraud Under federal law because trump said its because the election was stolen, but even leaving that, side, so claires right. You can do this legally, but it starts to really stink. Its become a full employment act for one lawyer in particular and one very worrisome fact is if are both nauta and de oliveira it seems clear that they should be cooperating and so ones concern is just that their lawyers which are dutybound to do arent representing the interests of their clients rather than trump himself and that would be both an ethical problem and potentially depending on how its done, a crime. Its not technically it could be kosher, but it sure seems like a lot of pork. [ laughter ] to Michael Cohens point, claire, he doesnt have to ask you. He knows if hes offering up the services and the pac is willing to cover your bill hes probably expecting loyalty and silence in return. We can all remember reallife examples of where people have been paid by the lawyers. The lawyers have been paid for by someone else. We had it in the Fox Dominion Suit where one of the witnesses was told by the lawyers, try to forget everything, and of course, they were looking after fox. They werent looking after the client. We had the same thing with Cassidy Hutchinson in the j6 testimony. She had been represented by lawyers and she got her own lawyer and all of a sudden realized i need to speak out. I need to talk about what i saw and what i witnessed. This was about whether or not theyre using lawyers to shut people up or whether theyre legitimately getting their lawyers to help them through legal problems and that will be a difficult thing for the pros courts to sort out. Please, go ahead. Remember here, its in the indictment, Will De Oliveira be loyal, and they get the word back and that day donald trump, former president of the United States, calls him up and says im going to give you a lawyer. Ill pay for your lawyer. All in all, you know, thats unsavory, lets put it that way. Claire brought up the point about Cassidy Hutchinsons closeddoor testimony, and i want to hone in on that for a moment, because she accepted the help of former Trump White House to fail to recall, and the less you remember, hutchinson recalled pass an tino remembers telling him her especially if you put together timeliness we have to give those over to the committee. Do we have any reason to believe that that is not being suggested to walt nauta and Charles De Oliveira . Any reason . You know, its the its the its the modus operandi. Its what the lawyer call the proof of character, but youre right, passantino, i think his license is in real jeopardy and she went in and gave testimony as he told her to and she realized im in big trouble, ive lied here and everything unraveled after that and look at what happened in the January 6th Committee as a result. So its of concern and as claire said its a hard thing to really get at because its the attorneyclient relationship. And i think correct me if im wrong, claire. Its part of the reason why donald trump is not going out saying look, im the political martyr for you. I need your money. Give me your money because i am the one going to bat for you. If its not me theyre going to come after you. Hey, donald trump is maybe a one or twotrick pony. It is i am a victim. I am a martyr, and by the way, im going to lie and youre going to believe me. And the grist continues. No one is going anywhere. Up next, how the growing criminal charges against the 2024 gop frontrunner are being received by his political rivals. Stay with us. Y his political rivals stay with us prescribed Hiv Treatment, biktarvy. Biktarvy is a complete, onepill, onceaday treatment used for hiv in many people whether youre 18 or 80. With one small pill, biktarvy fights hiv to help you get to undetectable and stay there whether youre just starting or replacing your current treatment. Research shows that taking Hiv Treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting hiv through sex. Serious side effects can occur, including Kidney Problems and kidney failure. Rare, lifethreatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and Liver Problems. Do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. Tell your Healthcare Provider about all the medicines and supplements you take, if you are pregnant or breastfeeding, or if you have kidney or Liver Problems, including hepatitis. 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These guys were acting like the the corleones with no experience. I mean, the day after a Grand Jury Subpoena is served which includes the Surveillance Tapes they go down to maralago and walt nauta appears to be the fredo of this family. They send him to go down there, and they send him to go and delete it. This is bad stuff. I want voters to listen to this. It is most likely that by time we get on the debate stage on august 23rd the frontrunner will be out on bail in four different jurisdictions, florida, washington, georgia and new york. So that was former new Jersey Governor Chris Christie trying to make his case to Republican Voters about just how dire things will be for them if the godfather everyting, remains their nominee and despite the potential for him to be out on bail for jurisdictions by the time of the gop debate at the end of august who are and trump is leading ron desantis and the closest runnerup by a whopping 37 points and his grip on the gop remains incredibly strong. Check this out. According to that poll, 22 of people who believe trump committed serious federal crimes would still be support him for the nomination. It is a headscratcher. Lets bring in editoratlarge for the bull work, Charlie Sykes, claire and harry are still with us. Charlie, i mean, lets just start with the basic here. What does it say about the republicans who believe that trump still deserves their support. Well, this is shocking, but its not surprising because this is what you would expect from a call and what you would expect from a Political Party where so many of the leaders refused to actually tell the base exactly what is at stake to hold donald trump accountable for his lawbreaking. I mean, after years and years and years of rationalization, of enabling various tortured defenses of Donald Trumps behavior, its not surprising that you would see the consequences of this alternative reality. You have more than 70 who think hes done nothing wrong and you have the 20 that still think that he should be returned to the oval office. This is alarming and this is what a postdemocratic political cult would look like, and ron desantis is not going to break Donald Trumps hold if hes not willing to take it to donald trump and speak truth to power in this particular case and hes apparently unable or unwilling to do that. Charlie, let me follow up and ask you. There are the Asa Hutchinson and the will herd and Chris Christies that are trying to say that now . Is it too little too late because they themselves did not vote to impeach donald trump. Chris christie worked for donald trump, Asa Hutchinson has been critical, but not as nationally recognized, if you will, or not as loud of a voice as some of these others. How do you explain how they themselves do not have any traction with the message . Everything you just said is true and these are all legitimate concerns, but i do think that its important to say that that it is crucial that they are doing what they are doing. Right. They are not getting any traction. Right. But they are saying what needs to be said and so, you know, with all due respect to those of us on msnbc, are we breaking through the republican base, but Chris Christie might. Will hurd said what is willing to be said and hes willing to go to the lions den and Asa Hutchinson is willing to do this, as well and none of them are going to win the republican nomination and none of them will be president and there is baggage. Hopefully they will be on the stage or at least Chris Christie will be on that debate stage and he will say things about donald trump that Republican Voters need to hear. Whether it makes a difference, we dont know. History would suggest that it wont, but it is very important that the voice come from within the house, from within the room at this point. Claire, harry, stick around and well get your thoughts on this just after a quick break, as well. Charlie, dont go anywhere. Wel. Charlie, dont go anywhere n. 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We have champagne taste. On a hard seltzer budget. Wayfairs got just what you need what. Yall this is nice. Salad plates . Kelly clarkson . Im fancy now i have always wanted statement lighting. Get nice things at nice prices at wayfair wayfair, youve got just what i need for too long, Big Oil Companies have bought off politicians so they can get away with ripping us off. Thats changing now. Joe biden passed a plan to jumpstart Clean Energy Production in america. Its creating good jobs that cant be outsourced and will lower energy costs. 1800. Thats how much a new report says the Inflation Reduction Act could save just the average American Family on energy costs. [narrator] learn how the Inflation Reduction Act will save you money. You said trump should have done more on january 6th. Like what . Well, look, i think its been well documented, kind of his conduct when it first started, how he sat there, could have obviously leaned in harder. I think even his own kids were texting saying he needs to do more, he needs to do more. Is that criminal, though . I mean, thats the thing when you talk about a grand jury and a potential criminal indictment. Claire, for every will hurd, Asa Hutchinson youve got a ron desantis, a lindsey graham, a kevin mccarthy, a Mitch Mcconnell who are basically apologizing for donald trump. Ron desantis, whos running against him, cant even get himself to be critical of how the president former president reacted on january 6th when the government was under attack. Hey, ive got one clear message for ron desantis. Hes been at this a while. Hes raised a bunch of money. Hes hired all these experienced people. He is not going to get there by being trumps mini me. Period. This poll shows it very clear. Him being like oh, yeah, well, trumps really not bad. As charlie said, this is not going to work. 37 of the republican electorate is not moving off trump. 25 of them arent going to be for trump. That leaves another chunk of people that are up for grabs. And the only way youre going to get those people is by attacking the guy that is winning the race. It is politics 101. Nikki haley, by the way, take the same memo. Right. All the others. Take the same memo. Tim scott. Theyre all dancing around trying to pretend that donald trump is not the problem. And what theyre doing is theyre electing donald trump. I wonder if thats because theyre vying for the vice presidency. I mean, donald trump tweeted as much out on his social media platform, basically saying let them debate, let them go after each other, right there, let them debate so i can see who i might consider for Vice President. What do you think, claire . Is that what this is . They dont want to go too hard after trump because theyre still applying for a job . Isnt that depressing . Isnt that depressing . I mean, think about that. They have watched this man up close, especially people like nikki haley and tim scott. They know what a disaster he was as president. And are they really stepping lightly because they want to be his number two . Have they talked to mike pence . Howd that work out for mike pence . Mike pence is barely registering in the polls. And he was number two. I would not recommend number two around donald trump unless you have a lot of lawyers on standby. Yeah, i agree with you on that. Harry, really quickly, youre saying theres smog else more at play here which is its not just politics. Youve got to speak up for the constitution in this case. Thats exactly right. Its not just politics 101. Its constitutional culture 101. I agree with Everything Charlie said and the most sobering word he used, postdemocratic. Were watching a constitutional trainwreck in real time, and were really in the territory of a republic if you can keep it, as lincoln famously said. I have not seen anyone debase his republican opponents the way that ive seen donald trump do it, and they still keep coming back for more. Harry litman, thank you so much. Claire mccaskill, thank you as well. Charlie, please stick around. Im going to talk to you a little later on in this hour. Up next for us, the Fulton County, georgia d. A. Signaling her team is ready to go. What that means in yet another possible indictment for the expresident. A very short break. Deadline white house returns in just a moment. Rns in just a moment choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more can be overwhelming. So, ask your doctor about botox®. Botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. Its the 1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. So far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over Eight Hundred And Fifty Thousand chronic migraine patients. 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And im going to hold true to that commitment. The work is accomplished. Weve been working for 2 1 2 years. Were ready to go. Hi again, everyone. It is 5 00 in new york. Im ayman mule hedin in for nicolle wallace. Ready to go. The latest and strongest indication yet from Fulton County District Attorney fani willis that the indictment of the expresident for his role in trying to overturn georgias 2020 president ial Election Results is likely and likely soon. Tomorrow is august 1st, meaning we will hear williss Charging Decisions within the month since she has signaled. You just heard her repeat it this weekend, that her decision will come before september 1st. This highly anticipated announcement from willis will mark the end of an over two years long investigation into the former president s actions that involved a grand jury and ensnared many of trumps allies including mark meadows and Rudy Giuliani and it be the third or even fourth indictment this year for the current gop frontrunner. As we also await an announcement from Special Counsel jack smith on his probe into Election Interference as well. Williss stated deadline approaching as trumps team suffered another legal defeat today. The judge overseeing the Fulton County grand jury, Superior Court judge robert mcburney, rejecting attempts by trumps lawyers to disqualify willis and quash the special grand jurys report. From his ninepage ruling, they are insufficient because while being the subject or even target of a highly publicized Criminal Investigation is likely an unwelcome and unpleasant experience no court ever has held that the status alone provides a basis for the courts to interfere with or halt the investigation. As nbc news reports, the ruling is the second against trump on the issue in two weeks. The Georgia Supreme Court denied a similar request from trump on july 17th. A third petition to the Fulton County Superior Court is pending with a hearing scheduled for august 10th. In his monday ruling mcburney suggested his ruling should make the third action moot. Willis has made clear her understanding of the Monumental Task before her, potentially criminally indicting a former president. In a may letter she asked judges to refrain from Scheduling Trials or inperson hearings between july 31st and august 18th and said she would have 70 of her staff work remotely during that period. And recently, Orange Barricades were set up outside the Fulton County courthouse. This weekend willis acknowledged the heightened security precautions. Sometimes when people are unhappy they act in a way that could create harm. Im not willing to put my employees in harms way. Im not willing to put any of the employees or the constituents that come to the courthouse in harms way. And so i think that the sheriff is doing something smart and making sure that the courthouse stays safe. Joining us now Political Columnist for the Atlanta Journalconstitution patricia murphy. Also with us former Justice Department prosecutor and Senior Member of Robert Muellers Special Counsel investigation andrew weissmann. And Editor At Large for the bulwark, Charlie Sykes is back with us. Patricia, ill start with you. Youve been keeping up with all of the updates on this case. What do you make of d. A. Williss comments this weekend, specifically the ready to go remark . And when are you expecting to hear an announcement from her office . Yeah, so the d. A. s comments over the weekend that the work has been accomplished and shes ready to go, theyve been working for 2 1 2 years, this is very, very consistent with what weve been hearing from miss willis for more than two years. I speak with her about two years ago about this kind of looming suspicion of donald trump, and she said im going to take my time, im going to go through the facts, if i can go through each fact, fact a, fact b, fact c, if it leads to an indictment thats where im going to go. She said it doesnt matter if youre a homeless person on the streets or somebody whos the former president of the United States, if you commit a crime in her county she will bring an indictment if she thinks she can close the case. Weve heard obviously from special grand jurors earlier that they expected to bring indictments. Weve heard that there wont be any surprises. So we do expect something from the d. A. Obviously, the tension in atlanta is getting really high. Those staffers now have been told to work remotely. Theyre down to about 70 staff, as your package said. So we are anticipating anything, really any day now. We know it could be over the next couple of weeks. Special grand juries meet in two panels during the week. All eyes are certainly on the Fulton County courthouse and the d. A. Will come out immediately after those are announced, when theyre announced, and explain the decision whether she decided to go forward or not. Let me ask you about that tension for a moment. When it comes to the security concerns. You have new reporting about a warning that d. A. Willis sent to County Leaders. And i just want to read a little bit from that. Willis warned a group of County Leaders over the weekend to stay alert and make decisions that keep your staff safe. In the same group email obtained by the ajc willis forwarded an obscene message she had recently received as an example of the threats her office has gotten since opening an investigation into possible Election Interference back in 2020. The message called Willis A Corrupt Racial Expletive and threatened you are going to fail, you Jim Crow Democrat expletive. Its obviously reaching a fever pitch. We have seen the consequences of words in the past turn over to violence. Tell us about the threats and vitriol that willis and her team have been facing. Donald trump just over the weekend referred to her as a racist d. A. And its not the first time he has gone after her in this vulgar, offensive manner. Yeah. Thats exactly right. Shes getting those threats and racial epithets from the top to the bottom, from the former president all the way down to her email inbox, to her voicemail. We know that she has had personal protection for quite some time now. And she sent this email that she had gotten, she forwarded it to the Fulton County commission as well as their staff and other members of the Solicitor Generals Office because its all one large complex in downtown atlanta. Its not just the Fulton County courthouse its also where the Fulton County commission meets, aund roh the corner is city hall, around the conner from that is the state capitol. So its all in this government complex, a very tight perimeter. And once those Orange Barricades went up in particular and once she did set a time frame starting today through the end of the month when shed be coming down with a decision the tensions have become very real. She sent this email to let commissioners know that its a really serious situation. They have multiple murder trials going on in that complex. They have multiple very highprofile trials just about all the time. But shes signaling that this is something really different, that this is going to be a level of scrutiny, of intensity and of potential and hopefully not but potential violence that she wants everybody to take very seriously down there for themselves as well as their staff and anybody in the area as well. Charlie, speak to this moment that we find ourselves in. I mean, this collision between the rule of law and the threat of Political Violence which we in this country are not immune to. Weve seen it time and time again. But were as patricia was saying, were seeing this on a whole new level because of what happened in the elections of 2020 and what we have now with the former president , this socalled, you know, party of law, republicans who are not doing enough to quell the anger or the vitriol that is directed to Law Officials in this country, Law Enforcement officials in this country. Well, im not hearing much effort to quell this at all. In fact, if anything you see the escalation of the violence. And after january 6th were in longer talking just theoretically about the possibility that the former president might incite violence. And the fact that he keeps coming back to fani williss race is a real tell. This is not a dog whistle. This is very much part of trumps attempt to freeze and to target this particular d. A. And he will make an issue of her race. He brings it up every single time. And i think that if you take Donald Trumps rhetoric seriously, as millions of americans do, you see that the threat is quite real. I know there are some people who think maybe we should just ignore donald trump. I think thats a huge mistake. Because it does not take a huge number of people to act on the kind of rhetoric that theyre hearing from their leader. And i think that this is a very dangerous moment. Think about the next week, the next 14 days. You may have indictments coming out of atlanta, then followed by or preceded by indictments from the Special Counsel. So everything is going to reach a Boiling Point frankly in the middle of the summer of 2023. Its a very legitimate concern and it is a completely unprecedented moment in american politics. Speak to that moment for us, andrew. When willis does bring forward her charges, what are you expecting . And more importantly, the possibility that you may have two charges from jack smith and fani willis more or less about the same effort, the effort to overturn or the same crime i should say, which is the effort to overturn the 2020 election in some capacity. Sure. Well, i think in short order that is exactly what were going to see with a larger case brought by jack smith and a subset of that case brought by fani willis. And so you will end up with four criminal cases against the former president and leading candidate for the presidency of the United States, a remarkable situation for our history. I think that for the fan wi willis case im going to be particularly interested in the judge who is drawn and what that judge is going to do with respect to the trial date and any other defendants. And the same thing for jack smith. What judge is assigned to the case in d. C. And any other defendants. I think those are the key open issues. And i think sort of tying in charlies point, it is going to be very interesting to see what the different sets of prosecutors do with respect to treating donald trump the way they would any other defendant who is engaging in this kind of conduct while on bail. Just remember, he is on bail in two criminal cases and in short order may be on bail in four criminal cases. Anyone who engaged in this kind of conduct in my experience would be brought in in no short order in front of the judge to at the very least get a tonguelashing about the Rules Of The Road and a warning about continuing this kind of behavior to inflame a jury, to incite violence. And there are judges certainly in d. C. , where the january 6th indictment if its brought will be, who are not going to tolerate this kind of behavior. Nor should they. Donald trump should be treated like everyone else, and that means that what he says at this point is not the same thing that anyone could say if they werent under indictment. Speak to us about the judge in atlanta who today judge mcburney who today ruled against trumps efforts to dismiss the case before the charges or charges are even brought, saying they dont have standing to mount a challenge in this preindictment phase. The significance of that, if you can, andrew, and more importantly is this a strategy that trump will employ or deploy in every legal proceeding, which is delay and try to buy more time . And, you know, challenge basically every single step along the way. Sure. Well, first on the challenge along the way, i mean, just to be clear, thats what every defendant does. Almost every defendant does not want to go to trial. Why . Because their day in court could will just be one day closer to their actual going to jail. So thats not an unusual strategy. It is important of course for the government to be on top of this to make sure that there isnt undue delay because of it. I think that the decision is so obviously right. What he basically said is these are the kinds of motions you bring after youre indicted, you have no standing at this point. And he notably cited the 11th Circuit Decision reversing judge cannon, saying that youre no different than any other defendant. You have no greater rights. You have no greater standing than any other defendant. I thought it was really heartening that you have judges at these Different Levels in different courts saying that, which is youre not going to be treated worse but youre not going to be treated better because of your former government position. And that meant that this is an entirely frivolous motion at this stage. And it will remain to be seen whether the judge whos having a hearing on august 10th goes forward because as you noted, ayman, it is a largely moot decision. You could imagine the judge Going Forward simply to issue a decision that says yes, i agree with what mcburney did, theres no standing at this point. But it is a moot point at this juncture. Patricia, the efforts to overturn the 2020 Election Span several states at Different Levels. But georgia carries a special significance i think in the collective psyche of this country because of an infamous recording where we actually hear donald trump in his own words calling the Secretary Of State, Brad Raffensperger, and telling him to find him votes. Lets play a clip. Watch. Im notifying you that youre letting it happen. So look. All i want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. And flipping the state is a great testament to our country. A lot of people think it wasnt a mistake. It was much more criminal than that. And as i mentioned, there are several states that are the subject of multiple investigations, but georgia is unique because of that but also the broader evidence that has been gathered by fani willis, or what she has been gathering. Talk to us a little about how unique georgia is in this broader effort. Well, georgia is crucial in this effort. It was a place that we saw donald trump and his associates again and again and again from Election Night challenging the results, asking for recounts, demanding hand recounts. Rudy giuliani came before a state senate and made multiple statements that he now admits were false, claiming that all kinds of fraud had happened in Fulton County that did not happen, and multiple recounts showed that the legitimate that the election was legitimate and that all of the statements were not true. These efforts to delay this trial remind me a whole lot of the efforts to delay the Election Results here in georgia, asking again and again, filing more and more court cases to demand that this be recounted, redone, and insisting over and over. And still to this day that the election was stolen. So it continues to animate our politics. It continues to animate state and local politics and National Politics of course. And well know really soon whether or not there were criminal indictments coming down. But this has been the 2020 election in georgia has truly never ended. We have never gotten a break from the results and then Donald Trumps insistence, false insistence and efforts to overturn that election, which he claims were rigged and which were not. It has never stopped here in georgia, and if there is an indictment that comes down this will just be the next chapter in that story. And fani willis told me that she looked to see where Brad Raffensperger lives. The minute she heard that phone call he lives in Fulton County, north Fulton County. That meant that that was immediately within her jurisdiction because he took that call from him. Other events in the state now look like they also in Fulton County may have been criminal as well. Well see very soon whether that was criminal conduct and whether she believes that and whether she thinks she can get a conviction. She told me she wouldnt bring an indictment unless she thought she could get a conviction. And well know very soon what the next chapter of the story looks like here in georgia. It is such an important point the way you framed it, that this election is not over for the people of georgia. Andrew, i do have to ask you really quickly about a point you brought up earlier, which is this comment from d. A. Fani willis that any notion she was coordinating with the Special Counsel jack smith, she kind of dismissed that, saying she doesnt know what jack smith is doing, doesnt know he doesnt know what im doing, in all honesty if jack smith was standing next to me im not sure i would know who he was. Talk to us a little about that. Are you surprised by the fact that even though they are looking at a similar crime in nature, this attempt to overturn the election there is not a coordination, there is not a communication between the two offices . If not now, will there be at some point a convergence of interests and dialogue . I am surprised if that reporting is correct. And the reason is that because the Subject Matter of the two cases overlap you do need to coordinate on witnesses. In other words, youre going to be talking to the same witnesses. You want to know what they have said. Have they said anything inconsistent . You also need to coordinate because you need to know about the discovery. Each the federal government and the state have obligations to turn over discovery to the defense. Well, the federal governments going to be interested in having that State Discovery and vice versa. So just at that basic level there needs to be coordination. It doesnt mean that you have to they all have to be doing everything lockstep. They dont have to coordinate on exactly when theyre going to indict. But there does need to be a line of communication on those kinds of things. Let me give you one other example. If you are interviewing somebody who is a victim, who speaking of your concerns how they were treated, ruby freeman, for example, somebody like that, you may not want them to have to tell their story over and over again to different investigators at the federal and state level. So youd want to just for the sake of the witnesses coordinate so you could lessen the burden on them in terms of reliving that experience. So i do think if they havent coordinated so far there will be a certain amount of coordination that does have to happen. I am sure well find out in the next couple days and weeks. Patricia murphy, andrew weissmann, thank you both. Greatly appreciate it. Charlie, please stick around. Just a quick programming note, andrews podcast Prosecuting Donald Trump will have a new episode out tonight after todays show ends. His guest is judge michael luttig, the judge who advised pence about the powers he did and did not have before january 6th. You do not want to miss it. When we return, echoes of 2019 and trumps first impeachment this weekend as the expresident demands that republicans withhold aid to ukraine over investigations into the biden family, believe it or not. Plus, Supreme Court Justice Samuel alito goes back to the pages of the Wall Street Journal, this time making a bold claim that congress has no right to oversee the Supreme Court. Were going to talk about that. And later in the program nbc news spoke to dozens of people who served in trumps cabinet. Guess what . Just four of them say he should be reelected. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Let Innovation Refunds help with your erc tax refund so you can improve your business however you see fit. Rosie used part of her refund to build an outdoor patio. Clink dr. Marshall used part of his refund to give his practice a facelift. Emily used part of her refund to buy. I run a wax museum. Let Innovation Refunds help you get started on your erc tax refund. Stop waiting. Go to innovationrefunds. Com you really got the brows. Bridgett is here. She has no clue that im here. She has no clue whos in the helmet. Are you ready . Im ready alright. Xfinity rewards creates experiences big and small, and onceinalifetime. Hi, im jason. Ive lost 228 pounds on golo. So when my doctor told me i needed weight loss surgery, i knew i had to make a change. Golos helped me transition to a healthier, sustainable lifestyle. Im so surprised just how crazy my metabolism has fired up. I have a trust in golo cause i know it works. Golo isnt like every other program out there, and im living proof of it. announcer change your life at golo. Com. Thats golo. Com. In what would be a new low except for the fact that weve actually been here before, the disgraced expresident is now publicly pressuring other republicans to withhold military aid from ukraine. Here is what he said at a rally over the weekend. The u. S. Congress should refuse to authorize a single additional payment of our depleted stockpiles. But the Weapon Stockpiles to ukraine until the fbi, doj and irs hand over every scrap of evidence they have on the biden crime familys corrupt business dealings. In addition, congress should immediately vote to block joe bidens recent callup of reserve forces. Were sending now troops over to europe to fight. It is not lost on us that this comes almost exactly four years since trumps infamous Phone Call Pressuring ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy and that he appears to have learned absolutely nothing from that first impeachment. It also speaks volumes about the state of the republican party, that this guy is their frontrunner for 2024. And he is threatening to unseat republicans if they do not fall in line. Joining me here at the table New York Times Editorial Board member gay and founder of Iraq And Afghanistan Veterans Of America and host of the independent americans podcast paul rykoff. Charlie is also still with us. So paul, let me start with you. This is just bonkers. He is again saying the quiet part out loud and doing basically what he did the first time around. Leveraging our National Security, our Foreign Policy all to his own political advantage and arguably to that of vladimir putin. Well, hes holding our National Security hostage. This is the Tommy Tuberville tactic which has become popular in washington the last few weeks and just cost alabama the Space Command. President obama made the decision that Space Command is not going to alabama, its going to colorado in part because of Tommy Tubervilles antics, because of the atmosphere in alabama and the restrictions on abortion rights. How are you going to recruit in alabama for people to join Space Command right now . Thats the strategy Tommy Tuberville put forward, holding National Security hoft ng. This is good for the base, its good for trumps base it gets them riled up but its bad for our National Security its bad for our troops its bad for nato and ultimately i think its bad for his politics with independent americans. Independents arent buying this. Overwhelmingly americans support support for ukraine, independents especially and i think in the ebbed its going to cost him those independents down the stretch. Charlie, speak to that for a moment. How is this going to play out . We know time and time again that republicans are all too willing to do trumps bidding and as paul just mentioned it is now going into National Security. Again, another topic that republicans always try to project themselves as the Stronger Party on, the National Security is one thing theyll never compromise on and yet here they are doing Donald Trumps bidding. Well, not so far. So far they have not lined up in sort of the antiputin wing of the party or the proputin wing of the party. But theres no question donald trump is not just echoing his attempt to extort Volodymyr Zelenskyy, he is repeating it. He is essentially saying look, if you do not give me all of my the dirt on my political opponent i am going to support cutting off ukraine, which is in a life and death struggle against russia. This is real world consequences. As paul pointed out here. And this from a party that has really wrapped itself around National Security. So there is a real vulnerability. You do wonder at one point, you have veterans and their families and people in the military who look at what donald trump is saying and Tommy Tuberville is saying and say wait, this is putting our lives at risk, this is putting our countrys security at risk. And i do think that there is a strong faction of republicans who may not speak out against donald trump in any other context who are going to look at this and go, okay, are we really going to sacrifice the freedom and the lives of ukrainians for your selfish political agenda . Are you really going to put us through this again . And thats a decision theyre going to have to make over the next few months. Mara, what do you think of this . I mean, republicans obviously you have people like susan collins, you know, Senator Braun who at the time in 2019, excuse me, said donald trump has learned his lesson after that first impeachment. And now here he is in a Campaign Event saying as clear as day he wants congress to effectively work against our National Security interests in order to beat his political opponent. What i think is that this is a vivid demonstration of the importance of Holding Donald trump accountable in court if necessary and if the law demands it. I think there has been some conversation and some concern along the lines of whether Prosecuting Donald Trump for any crimes he may have committed would further divide the country or would really be worth it. You know, while i understand those concerns, when you have a former president who may have committed crimes and also has been extremely reckless with american lives, with ukrainian lives, the lives of our allies and the democracy of the nation is at risk, you really need to hold him accountable. If you dont hold him accountable, he will continue to become i believe more and more reckless. And i also just have to say that this is brazen behavior. I mean, not only was he investigated over interference in the election, over foreign interference in the election, and of course we know that famous phone call that took place between he and the ukrainian president , was already extremely inappropriate. You know, now you have a president who is essentially asking for foreign intervention in our elections. There used to be a time where there was a sense that american elections were sacred, that we were all americans even if there are republicans, there are democrats, there are independents. But now its donald trump not just over party, over everything. Well, if youre also a candidate whos asking a foreign country to find 10,000 emails of your political opponent and to leak them so you can weaponize them, i guess nothing should surprise us anymore. Exactly. Mara, paul, please stick around. Charlie, its always great to see you, m i friend. Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. Coming up, outrage after Justice Samuel alito turns to a lawyer with business before the Supreme Court to Tell Congress stay out of the Supreme Courts business. The company goes to the firstborn, audrey. The Model Train Set is entrusted to todd. 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Youll also receive a free tote bag to share your support for children in need. Childhood without food is unimaginable. Get fed up. Call us now or visit getfedupnow. Org today. It is just wrong on the facts to say that congress doesnt have anything to do with the rules guiding the Supreme Court. In fact, from the very beginning congress has set those rules. It is just more evidence that these justices on the Supreme Court, these conservative justices just see themselves as politicians. They just see themselves as a second legislative body that has just as much power and right to impose their political will on the country as congress does. All right. So that was senator chris murphy on the comments made by Supreme Court Justice Samuel alito in an interview published by the Wall Street Journal in its oped page late last week saying that congress has no role in setting ethical standards for the court. The justice saying, i know this is a controversial view, but im willing to say it. No provision in the constitution gives them the authority to regulate the Supreme Court. Period. Alitos latest remarks actually opens him up to even more questions and scrutiny about Supreme Court ethics. One of the authors of the Wall Street Journal piece last week, david rifkin, he is set to argue a case in front of the Supreme Court later this fall. Lets bring in mark joseph stern, Senior Writer for slate. Mara and paul are still with us. So mark, great to see you again. Help us unpack Justice Alitos claims here, that congress has no role in Setting Rules for the ethics of the court. You speak to a lot more legal experts than i do. Is that true or false . It is quite false and an extraordinary claim because in fact article 3 of the constitution expressly grants congress the power to regulate the Supreme Court and in fact uses the word regulation, which Justice Alito claims is totally forbidden. From its start the court has been regulated by congress. Congress sets its budget. Congress sets the number of seats on the court. It can add or subtract seats. It can choose which cases the court must hear and which cases the court cant hear. And theres a very strong consensus across legal experts that of Course Congress can impose an ethical standard on the Supreme Court just as congress imposes an ethical standard on all of the lower courts that judges must follow. So hes really going way out in front of his skis here by making this sweeping claim that goes against not only the text of the constitution but more than 230 years of tradition. And i think there is a reason why the Chief Justice has sometimes shown a little bit of frustration with alito over the past year, because this guy keeps going out and making himself look like quite the clown in front of the american people. As we mentioned, mark, one of the authors of the journal, the oped in the journal, david rifkin, he actually has business before the court and hes also deeply personally enmeshed in the debate over Supreme Court ethics. The Associated Press writes that rifkin represents leonard leo, i think a name a lot of americans are getting more familiar with. This onetime leader of the conservative legal group the federalist society. In his dealings with Senate Democrats who want details of leos dealings with justices. Of course leo helped arrange alitos trip to alaska. Rifkin in a letter tuesday to leading democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee Said the request was politically motivated and violates leos constitutional rights. And rivkin also wrote that a congressionally imposed ethics code for the Supreme Court would falter on constitutional grounds. Are we looking at a campaign to stop Supreme Court reform in its tracks in real time . We absolutely are. And were seeing the justice work hand in hand with at least one attorney, david rivkin, who as you said has a case before the court this coming term that is an attempt to roll back the federal income tax by diminishing the authority of congress under the 16th amendment. Thats a really big deal. And so it doesnt look great to have Justice Alito palling around with this same attorney in the offices of the Wall Street Journal. As you said too, alito is good friends with leonard leo, currently cochair of the federalist society. And rivkin also represents leo in trying to quash the Senate Judiciary committees investigation into leos massive dark money machine. Theres a historical parallel here. Chief Justice Hughes in the 1930s when faced with fdrs campaign to expand the Supreme Court resisted many calls to go out on the offensive like this, to take big swings back at congress and the president and chose instead to show that he was a neutral arbiter, that he could remain impartial, that he could remain the Chief Justice of the judiciary, the Supreme Court without interfering in the political branches. Here we have the exact opposite. We have alito stepping out, interfering with congress, expressing a strong view against legislation thats pending before the senate. I would venture to say that this is unprecedented behavior from a sitting justice and that he has taken a pretty shocking step of meddling in the democratic branches. Can you imagine, mara, for a moment what would happen if you had, you know, Justice Sotomayor appearing on the oped pages of the New York Times or Wall Street Journal . Doing two things, one with somebody who has a case in front of her later this fall. And two, in the very same piece with the guy appearing in front of her in a couple months arguing that congress has no oversight. What do you think the outrage would be from republicans . Well, not only would there be outrage but you wouldnt see it because in the moment, in this moment in American History the far right in the country, which includes several members of the Supreme Court at this point, is far less interested i believe unfortunately in precedent and in Democratic Institutions and far more interested in raw power. And i think whats interesting about this oped to me is its straight out of the rightwing playbook at this point. Throw out an extreme idea that is anathema that everything that any american who has been to a High School Social studies class would recognize as the importance of the balance and checks of power, and then get americans used to it so by the time youve decided that congress, despite section 3 of the constitution, has absolutely no role in altering or regulating the court, then americans will accept that. As though it was true all along. And i cant help but feel that this is especially interesting coming at a time when i think progressives have been talking about expanding the court because the alternative is a generation really or more of rightwing jurisprudence at the court. I also just have to say its so out of touch because just because somebody writes something in the Wall Street Journal oped page isnt going to make it more acceptable to the millions of americans who disagree with the Supreme Court as it is right now on a number of issues like abortion rights. Americans arent going to all of a sudden say oh, well, it was written in the Wall Street Journal oped section . Must be legit. I guess its as good as law. To maras point, americans are waking up with this idea that maybe for the last several years they have not been paying as much attention to the court and now you have a Supreme Court justice that is basically saying to the public you have no oversight over what this court does. That is a scary moment for our democracy. Just the idea that a justice of the Supreme Court thinks there is no congressional oversight to that institution. Yeah, the norms are gone. There is a falling out of integrity. Theres a loss of honor. I mean, we just talked about how the republican party, the party of john mccain, is now attacking the military. Ron desantis is running on attacking the military. Thats upside down world. And now youve got a Supreme Court justice arguing there shouldnt be ethics regulations. Like thats how low weve come. So everything has become politicized. Everyone has become a political actor. And every institution in our country has been compromised. From the department of defense to the Supreme Court. And this is why america doesnt trust anything anymore. They dont trust political leaders. They dont trust institutions. And thats the real loss for all of us, is this loss in the trust and the integrity of our democracy. Yeah, and if we dont restore it i just i fear where were going good here, heading over a cliff. Paul, mara, please stick around. Mark joseph stern, thank you so much. Greatly appreciate it as always. After the break just a handful of the people who have seen donald trump serve as president up close are supporting his bid to return to the white house. You can literally count them on one hand. That story is next. Is next power e trades easytouse tools, like dynamic charting and riskreward analysis help make trading feel effortless. And its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. E trade from morgan stanley. Your Vice President , mike pence, is running against you. Your ambassador to the United Nations nikki haley shes running against you. Your former Secretary Of State mike pompeo said hes not supporting you. You mentioned National Security adviser john bolton hes not supporting you either. You mentioned attorney general bill barr. Says you shouldnt be president again. Well, i mean, you just went through a list. But dont forget, for every one you say i had ten that love us. For every one that doesnt support him trump claims that he has ten that love him. And according to a new report from nbc news that does not appear to be the case. Nbc news reached out to 44 of the dozens of cabinet officials who served in the Trump Administration, and just four, yep four responded saying they support his run for president in 2024. And one of those four endorsements comes from former chief of staff mark meadows, who has been noticeably silent in recent weeks as speculation grows that he could be cooperating in the Special Counsels investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Were just going to leave that right there. Were back with mara and paul. Ill get your thoughts on this. What does it say to you that 4 out of the 44 people that we spoke to i would say 3 arguably no one has ever heard of before with the exception of mark meadows are endorsing him for a second run. I think it shows you that they know his work and they know his danger to the american republic. Some of them in fact have testified to exactly that. Before the January 6th Committee. And we know that these are not democrats, these are not liberals. If you worked in the Trump Administration in a political position and you were higher up, most likely you were a far right republican or adjacent. And you still cant stomach the idea of having donald trump back in the white house. So you know, i think its a really important measure of his character and his threat to the american republic. Yeah, and speaking of that, the four cabinet members, paul, who have endorsed him besides mark meadows include russell vought, Matthew Whitaker and rick grinnell. In trump world do these voices carry more weight than former secretaries of defense, general mattis, john kelly, bill barr, just people who actually served at the highest levels of government . And were at one point, even though they served for trump, were considered the adults in the room. No, they dont carry more weight. But i think even more so, i dont trust any of them. Like they say that now. They say they wont endorse him. But how many times before have we seen people fall in line and do a 180 when trump gets power and he starts to gather steam. So i dont trust any of them and theres plenty of people who would be lining up at the door if hes back at the white house to take a job. This is i think a reflection of how big his movement is, because it really is a social Movement Much more than a political campaign. Theres plenty of people who are in line for power who will be right behind the others ready to stand forward if he gets reelected. And even if he doesnt. Because i continue to say its also a National Security story. Its not just a political story but its how many millions of p story. Its how many angry millions of people can he motivate to do things . How many have guns . Theyd always have to be a National Security threat. And i think esper, who used to be called yesper, but he says no. Republicans are unable to call donald trump up for what he is. Why does ron desantis and nikki theyre cowards. Christie is the only one out there consistently and i think everybody else thinks hes inevitable. And theyre all gunning for possible Vice President. Cya drill, covering their butts. Thank you for joining us on set. A quick break from us. Well be right back. Th ripping. Thats changing now. Joe biden just capped the price of insulin for seniors at 35 a month. Gave medicare the power to negotiate lower Prescription Drug prices. And prices are already starting to go down. The outofpocket cost is dropping for 27 drugs. [narrator] learn how the Inflation Reduction Act will save you money. Best thing ive ever done. Thats what freddie told me. It was the best thing ive ever done, and really . Yes, without a doubt i dont have any anxiety about money anymore. Great people. Different people, thats for sure, and all of them had Different Reasons for getting a reverse mortgage, but you know what, they all felt the same about two things they all loved their home, and they all wanted to stay in that home. 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He only knows what weve already reported, that smith told him that he is a target of the probe. Then there are new developments in the case where smith has already indicted trump, piling on more charges last week over the alleged efforts to cover up the espionage violations that d. O. J. Initially charged. That news hit as many people