He clearly intended to use whatever means were at his disposal, whatever levers he could find to overturn a free and fair election. And it was a project, lets be clear here, that almost the entire Republican Party signed on to before some of them got a little freaked out and tried to distance themselves. The times Reports Trump was enabled by influential republicans motivated by ambition, fear or misplaced belief that he would not go too far. Hm. Mitch mcconnell was okay with the plan because he feared alienating a president whose tee his control of the chamber. He also heeded misplaced assurances from white house aides like jared kushner, mr. Trump would eventually cede to reality. Remember that texas lawsuit challenge the Election Results that 18 republican State Attorneys General signed on to . Right . That was ghostwritten, drafted by lawyers close to the white house. The lie that the election was stolen propelled forward by new and more radical lawyers and financiers including the former Chief Executive of overstock. Com whos financing his own team of cybersleuths to help prove voter fraud and disgraced former National Security adviser michael flynn. Then the day arrived, january 6th. The forces that could have, should have protected the capitol had been disarmed. Do you remember shortly after the election the former president removed a bunch of officials at the very top of the Defense Department and in a totally unprecedented move. Didnt really make much sense at the time, and he replaced them with Handpicked Trumpists whose resumes were, well, pretty insufficient for their jobs. Christopher miller never held a senior role at the pentagon, was elevated to acting secretary of defense, where he signed this bizarre memo. That memo forbade d. C. National guard members present at the Capitol On January 6th from using weapons or having helmets or body armor or employing any riot control agents like pepper spray or sharing any equipment with Law Enforcement agencies. Keep in mind, the planning of january 6th happened in coordination with people in of the rally, now on the lam, publicly proclaimed he had help from three trump loyalists in congress. I was the person who came up with the January 6th Idea with congressmen gosar, mo brooks and andy biggs. We four schemed up of putting maximum pressure on congress while they were voting so that who we couldnt lobby, we could change the hearts and the minds of republicans who were in that body, hearing our loud roar from outside. Hm, hearts and minds. He schemed it up with some of the former president s best allies in the body. And now we have some receipts about the extent of coordination, thanks to new reporting from propublica, a trump fundraiser played a key role in planning the rally that preceded the siege. Text messages and an Event Planning memo indicate that caroline rent played an extensive role in managing operations for the event, the records show that wren oversaw logistics, funding and messaging. Wren seen here with guilfoyle backstage before the rally that led to the riot. Working in a president ial Fundraising Committee called Trump Victory during the Campaign Last year. The reporter who broke that story for propublica, Michael Spies joins me with luke broadwater, reporting on the pentagon memo curtailing the National Guard for the new york times. Its good to have you both. Michael, tell us a little bit about who Caroline Wren is and what role she played in trump world . Caroline wren was and has been a Top Republican fundraiser for some time. Going back to working with Lindsey Graham in 2014, eventually making her way into trump world more recently. Working basically at the hip of Kim Guilfoyle and don jr. Over the last election cycle. And the documents you were able to obtain, what do they show . They showed that she was intimately involved in the planning of the january 6th rally. That evolved overseeing budgeting, messaging, making key decisions, making sure facilitating the president s speaking slot, making sure he was going to speak, basically. When she came in, it became like a much more real, legitimate rally. Was that known before and what was the sort of ostensible story about the rally in which the president appeared . It came together in a strange way. The person who was originally putting it on was a woman named cyndi shavy, affiliated with another group called women for america first, and she was planning an event in december most interestingly. She had been contacted or was in touch with alex jones, the conspiracy theorist, who was interested in funding said event. And jones at some point put her in touch with wren, who was working with a trump fundraiser who wanted to bank roll the affair. Alex jones put her in touch with Caroline Wren, the longtime republican staffer who used to work for Lindsey Graham, now works for Kimberly Guilfoyle and who was at the nexus of this . Correct. Alex jones told her that she had to get in touch with Caroline Wren, because this particular fundraiser wanted to put on an event or contribute heavily to it. Thats right. Luke, i want to talk to you about your reporting about this d. O. D. Memo. The memo strikes me as quite strange and quite anomalous, but i dont look at memos like this all the time. My first question is, is it strange and anomalous . Is this sort of pro forma thing you usually get or did this stick out at the time . So this all originates from the d. C. National guards enforcement of black lives matter protests in june. There was some criticism of the guard at the time they had been too aggressive, and they had flown helicopters too low, buzzing the protesters. And so at the time the Defense Department was ostensibly trying to limit the rough tactics of the guard. And d. C. Mayor bowser had wanted the guard present on january 6th, but had requested they not be as aggressive. So this memo purportedly is for that purpose. What is somewhat worrying about it is as it comes down january 4th, two days before the rally that precedes the riot, and at that same time, Capitol Police say theyre gathering intelligence that white nationalists, other extremist groups, are going to be armed and are going to be attacking the capitol that day or at least there is a potential for that attack on the capitol. So there is intelligence that exists that there could be this insurrection, there could be this attack on the capitol, and at the same time the commander of the d. C. National guard is being told that he needs additional levels of approval to use tactics to suppress a riot. So he testified before a closed Door Committee last week of the House Appropriations that, you know, he felt this slowed him down and limited his authority. There is some question as to whether how much this did slow things down, thats something were still investigating, but certainly he feels that way and thats what he told Committee Members behind closed doors. Luke, how good a sense do you as someone who is reporting on this full time have of like the full story of why they were so underprepared on that day for what presented itself . Well, it was a tremendous failure on many levels. I mean, i think one reading of it is simply they did not truly believe that the trump mob would or the mob of Trump Supporters would attack the capitol, and clearly they didnt prepare for that. Had they truly believed that, i think we would have had a much different response. There are some other indications, though, that perhaps there were some other considerations at play. There has been some talk that the sergeant at arms didnt want the National Guard there because of optics, because they method it would send a bad message. Theres some talk that some in the military did not want the National Guard standing by, they felt it would look bad to have them standing in front of Trump Supporters as they, were you know, outside the capitol. But clearly, i mean, everyone now realizes this was a huge, huge failure on many levels. Thats what we have seen the resignations we have seen, the Capitol Police chief and the sergeant at arms, and i think this is something that were only sort of beginning to understand everything that went wrong, and were going to continue to investigate, and i know congress is certainly going to continue to investigate, and theyll be future hearings and investigations to determine exactly why there was such terrible failures. Luke broadwater and Michael Spies, thank you for sharing your reporting with us. I want to bring in walter dellenger, hes served in several roles, including head of the office of Legal Counsel at the department of justice. Lets start on the reporting over the weekend about the notion of this trial that the president s lawyers presenting this preposterous, invidious lie about the election as their defense. What do you make of that . Well, we dont know why that set of lawyers, you know, resigned from the representation. But, you know, there is a limit to what lawyers can do. And one of the lawyers whom i know, josh howard, a north carolinian, very well respected, one of those who stepped down, there were three possible defenses you could make of the president in the impeachment proceeding. One is that they dont have Constitutional Authority over a former president. Secondly, that what he said was protected by the First Amendment on the morning of january 6th. And the third was that what he did was right. What he did was right because he was trying to incentivize a group to storm the capitol to stop the greatest theft, the greatest fraud in american history. Thats, according to reports, the argument that the former president wanted his lawyers to make. Now the first two arguments, constitutionality, First Amendment, protected speech i think theyre wrong for multiple reasons, but theyre respectable lawyer arguments. The third argument is just false. And thats why its a real dilemma for an attorney did put forward an argument, when what the judicial process showed over 60 cases was that there was simply no basis and these are false allegations. Right. It is striking right there, youre sort of bumping up against the boundaries of professional ethics from just a lawyer standpoint in terms of vigorous defense of a client, former president of the United States, and everyone is owed a defense to just, you know, saying things that you know are not true, which has been what the entire problem has been from the beginning and brought us to this moment. Right. Absolutely. Thats the problem. And, chris, it says something good about our process of law as it operates in the trial courts that it does kind of wash out untruths because you have to get up in court and present affidavits that are sworn to the argument that, for example, republican counters were excluded from the secret counting processes. Well, you put someone on the stand and the lawyer has to answer for it, and the lawyer says in one of the cases the judge says to the lawyer, i am asking you as an officer of the court, were there republicans in the Counting Room as observers . And after a long pause, he finally says, yes. How many, says the judge . A number greater than zero. Thats the point at which no matter what they say in a Press Conference in front of the whatever four seasons and gardening shop it is, its a very different matter than when youre standing in court and i think thats how the truth of the baseless charges came to change. I guess the question was your sense of the contours of what an Impeachment Trial is like. Is an Impeachment Trial more like standing outside four seasons total landscaping . Or is it more like being in an actual court of law . I think it is a mixture. But when it comes to presenting evidence that is not the case, you cant put on an affidavit in any context that you know to contain false information. So any argument that, you know, 13,000 trump votes were switched and turned into biden votes is not something that a lawyer can say without being called up upon his State Bar Authority that there is no basis for it. The other two, you know, there is an interesting wrinkle to this, because The Other Two arguments are also flawed, but they are not false. The argument that the president is in longer in office. But when he was indicted on january the 13th, he was in office. Im sorry, when he was impeached on january 13th, he was in office. And judge Michael Mcconnell has argued i think very persuasively that if you are impeached while you are president , then clearly they have that authority in the and the senate has the authority to try all impeachments. So this is not even a case that raises a serious question about that. As for the second matter, i think his lawyers will try to put on a case that there was not an incitement per se in his remarks, that it was within the zone of the First Amendment protection. But thats beside the point, because its the whole 77 days correct. Of conduct that tells that convinces a lot of the country that there as been a Theft Of American Democracy that leads to the rioting in question. Yeah, in fact theres reporting tonight the case being put together by the Impeachment Managers as the sort of opening of the show would indicate isnt about what he said specifically, devoid of context on that one day. It is the sum total of the actions that led to that moment and then led to the storming of the capitol. Walter dellinger, thank you very much. Always so good to have you on. Youre welcome, chris. Still ahead, why the Republican Partys problem is so much bigger than Marjorie Taylor greene and bigger than donald trump. They have businesses to grow customers to care for lives to get home to they use stamps. Com print discounted postage for any letter any package any time right from your computer all the services of the Post Office Plus ups only cheaper get our special tv offer a 4week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps. Com tv and never go to the post office again. Democrats Just Announced that on wednesday they will start the process of removing republican congresswoman Marjorie Taylor greene from her Committee Assignments if republicans dont act first. Greenes a member of the Education Labor Committee and the Budget Committee and has a history of conspiratorial thinking. She has, for example, endorsed a comment to shoot nancy pelosi in the head, claims School Shootings were hoaxes to generate support for gun control, and on and on and on. She was elected in a landslide in a northwest georgia district, which points to a big part of the problem about the Marjorie Taylor greenes of the world and the Donald Trumps of the world. What they believe is what a lot of the Republican Base believes. And its why many other republicans like Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson just keep refusing to condemn the congresswoman on her position. First of all, the people of her district elected her and that should mean a lot. Given her history, is she fit to serve . Im not going to answer that question as to whether shes fit to serve because she believes in something that everybody else does not accept, i reject that. But shes going to stand for reelection. Joined now by someone who has written how much greene reflects her party, molly jung fast, headline, the scariest thing about Marjorie Taylor greene, shes not alone. I thought of this piece when i was watching this clip of asa hutchinson, you see it repeated among republicans, this representation dodge, right . We saw it in questioning the Election Results, josh hawley would say, a lot of my constituents have questions. At some level it is true, like it is the case that there are probably tens of millions of people that have views similar to Marjorie Taylor greene. Yeah. I mean, there is really scary polling out there, 56 of republicans believe that, you know, some amount of qanon is true, right . I mean, thats madness. And 1 in 3 republicans think that the deep state is working against the president. So there are a lot of crazy beliefs, but i think the fact that republicans are giving up all of their duty and just going along with it is a pretty bad sign. Yeah, i mean, what they need to do is actually wage a frontal war on this, right . And theres very few that want to do it. A few interesting developments on this story today. So Mitch Mcconnell actually just put out this statement that reads in part, looney lies and Conspiracy Theories are cancer for the Republican Party and our country, somebody who suggested that perhaps no airplane hit the Pentagon On 9 11, that horrifying School Shooting were prestaged, and that the clintons crashed jfk jr. s airplane is not living in reality. He goes on to defend congresswoman cheney, who is now the suggest of a trumpist kind of purge. What do you make of that . It is all fine and good, but they need to do something, right . And remember Marjorie Taylor greene, they knew who she was when this was going on. Of course, yeah. And jim jordan actually supported her and so did mark meadows. So this was not, like, some outsider where people didnt say you know, she ran unopposed. So i would say that what republicans need to do is they need to do what they did with steve cane, youre not going to be able to get the numbers to get her out, because thats twothirds and thats just i think going to be impossible. Because a lot of the gop in the house is pretty wacky. But i think they could strip her of her Committee Assignments like steve king and there is no point in being in office. I dont know the Republican Party will do that because they have been very cowardly. I thought congressman kinzinger, from illinois, and voted for impeachment of donald trump, made sort of a good point about that, that path forward, take a listen to what he had to say. Would you vote to evict her . Id certainly vote her off committee. In terms of eviction, im not sure, because kind of in the middle. I think a district has every right to put who they want there, we have every right to take a stand and say you dont get a committee. I thought that was a pretty good point. Again, everyone keeps circling back to this fundamental democratic problem here. She was elected by the people of her district, and they knew what views she had, she did not hide them, right . So its like, its the same problem in some ways as the trump problem, although she actually won her seat with more votes than her nonexistent opponent. But we keep coming back to that as the issue. You know, all of this happened because there was a power vacuum, right . Republicans let themselves be hijacked by trump, and now trump is gone and no one has stepped in. Right . So we have a situation where the Republican Party is largely governed by whoever is the loudest. You have places like oregon where the gop and hawaii where the gop is tweeting crazy qanon stuff because those people are the loudest. I think you need someone like a mitt romney to go in there and say, like, this is madness, you guys have to get it together, but i dont know there are i mean, there are only ten people, ten republican congressmen, who are like that in the house. Right. You could have the factional war, factional wars happen all the time, we see them in different political movements at different times. They happen in the democratic party, during the cold war particularly as regarded communism and henry wallace, there were huge Factional Battles over that. There were huge Factional Battles that the tea party represented, right . You can have Factional Battles. It seems there are not enough members actually willing to have the battle. Yeah. I mean, the problem is there arent many sane members of the gop in the house. You have ten who really said, like, Armed Insurrection is bad. But you had 100 plus who said, Armed Insurrection is okay if you really want to. Which is pretty nuts. So i dont know how you get those people to behave in a rational way, when they havent. Right. The other thing that looms over this is, of course, the expresident , who Marjorie Taylor greene said she had a great call with. And part of this Marjorie Taylor greene discussion seems so bizarre, how did this woman get elected to congress . Did you see who we just had for president for four years . Theyre not that different. Thats again, that theyre channeling something that is vibrant and powerful and dynamic a certain core faction of american politics. Until people beat that force, it is there. Molly jongfast, thank you for your time tonight. Coming up, Bernie Sanders and the Big Covid Relief Bill and the republicans trying to short change it. He joins me live next. These folks, they dont have time to go to the post office they have businesses to grow customers to care for lives to get home to they use stamps. Com print discounted postage for any letter any package any time right from your computer all the services of the Post Office Plus ups only cheaper get our special tv offer a 4week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps. Com tv and never go to the post office again. It was a very Good Exchange of views. I wouldnt say that we came together on a package tonight, no one expected that in a twohour meeting. But what we did agree to do is to follow up and talk further. Maine republican senator Susan Collins speaking on behalf of the nine republican senators who just left the white house a short time ago. Theyre meeting with president bide ton hear his case for a 1. 9 trillion relief bill advancing their version of a bill that is about a third of the size and attempting to negotiate in the spirit of bipartisanship and unity that the president ran on. Heres the thing, bidens Larger Covid Relief Bill is already unifying. It is massively popular with the majority of the American People, it already has bipartisan support, for example, heres the republican governor jim justice of West Virginia, a state trump won by nearly 70 . At this point in time, in this nation, we need to go big. We need to quit counting the eggs sucked and legs on the cows and count the cows and just move, and move forward and move right now. We need to go big and if we waste some money now, well, we waste some money. But absolutely we got too many people hurting, and the economy is going to sputter, and we got to get ourselves out of this mess and this is the way we need to go right now. And im joined now by the incoming chair of the senate Budget Committee, senator Bernie Sanders, independent from vermont. I was very struck, senator, by jim justice of West Virginia making that case in a few different places today. That is one of trumps best states in the union. He is a republican. And it was interesting to me that he feels the need to be so vocal about it. Look, as youve indicated, we are in the midst of the most unprecedented set of crises in the modern history of this country. And the governor of West Virginia understands that. Were talking about people who have lost their jobs, cant feed their families, chris, people worried about being evicted. 90 Million People uninsured or underinsured in the midst of this terrible pandemic. Were losing 3,000 people every single day from the virus. Our kids are unable to go to school. You have a significant uptick in Mental Illness because of all of this separation that people, you know, cant be with their families, cant be with their friends. This is a terrible moment. And the governor is right. Now is not the time to count pennies. Now is the time to address these monumental crises. And i think what the president is proposing is a very good start in doing that. What is your response to understanding of this group of nine senators on the republican side who made this counterproposal at, you know, a third of the total cost, and met with the president today . Well, im glad that the president met with republicans, we want to continue to have a dialogue, and there are going to be issues coming down the pike where i think youre going to see some bipartisan efforts. For example, republicans understand that our infrastructure is crumbling, and we can create millions of good paying jobs, rebuilding our roads and bridges and affordable housing. Republicans or a number of them understand it is absurd that on some cases were paying ten times more than other countries for prescription drugs. We got to lower the costs of prescription drugs. So there are a number of areas where i think we have the potential to work together. Remember, this is the first reconciliation bill, there will be another one coming soon. After this one is passed. But right now, what the republicans are talking about is just totally inadequate to meet the unprecedented crises that we are facing. So you just mentioned reconciliation, a budgetary process that i believe has formally begun in both houses. And because of senate rules, it means that it is not filibusterable, right . You can simple majority bill. Brian shotts, your colleague, said the following, regular people dont care whether we pass something with 51 votes or 60. Do you agree . Absolutely. Look, what goes on Inside The Beltway is unfathomable to many of us Inside The Beltway, nobody outside understands that. You want to talk about bird rules, good luck. The bottom line is, the American People are hurting and theyre hurting badly. Chris what worries me is so many, by the millions, of our people are giving up on democracy. They really do not believe that the government is listening or understands their pain and can respond. That is what we have got to do right now. So i agree with your view of this, and senator schatz, whether 51 or 60 votes. The big question is, are you confident you have the Democratic Caucus together . This is a diverse caucus, you got folks from West Virginia, and arizona, and two new senators from georgia, youve got folks from california. Do you think you can hold the caucus together, you and your colleagues, for a Reconciliation Vote on a package of this size . Well, you know, Leader Schumer has been working 24 7 on just that issue. I think we will. Because at the end of the day, every member of the Democratic Caucus, no matter what their differences may be and look, i have differences and concerns about this bill. In my judgment, it doesnt go far enough. Right. Other people have different concerns. But at the end of the day, we all come from states, we are sick and tired of seeing hundreds of cars lining up for food, kids unable to go to school, people not getting the vaccines as rapidly as they should. We all share that in common. And second of all, chris, we are the majority right now because two great candidates ran in georgia. And that Georgia Election really became a national election. And promises were made in that election. Not just by the candidates, but by many of us. And what we said is, you know, if democrats, if you elect democrats and we take control, were going to get you 1400 on top of the 600, were going to extend unemployment. Were going to significantly increase the child tax credit, were going to get money to states and cities, were going to deal with education. Those were the promises made. And it would be totally unacceptable for any democrat to renege on those promises, that is why people are giving up on the political process. You just mentioned were in the majority, which is true. Slimmest possible majority, 50 50, tie breaking vote from the vice president. I think i lost the thread on here. So remind me here, there was a standoff of the Organizing Resolution. Which actually is the resolution that gives the Committee Power over it. Mcconnell walked away from it after he felt he got assurances in the president got a filibuster. But the Organizing Resolution hasnt passed yet . Am i crazy . Did i miss something here . Welcome to washington, d. C. I literally dont understand, though. Like what is happening . Yes, youre right. It hasnt passed. I think what happens is you got to you got to add new senators to committees, got to be a balance and all that stuff. Gotcha. My understanding is that it will finally pass, i believe, tomorrow. So then you will be then you will actually be the chair of the Budget Committee as opposed to the incoming chair . Right. Something like that. Do you think that there you started this by talking about the possibility of bipartisanship. I wonder if you feel like there is an opportunity here to sort of learn the lessons of 2009, but also if there is a ways in which the way that joe biden approaches the presidency, which is not to sort of dominate the nations attention, not to be out there on every issue, can help in some ways. Like, is there a counterintuitive case to be made that not having the president banging the drum on something can mean there is actually more space for some kind of legislative work outside the spotlight . No, i think thats right. I think, you know, biden is a personality who is very low key, hes inclusive, he wants to involve people in the process. But what he also understands, and i give him a lot of credit for this, is that at this particular moment now is not the time to think small, it is the time to think big and to address the crisis. But, you know, there are republicans who have good ideas. Lets bring them in. At the end of the day, you know, the media keeps talking about bipartisanship, bipartisanship, thats fine. But what is much more important to the average american is that we deal and address the terrible, terrible pain and suffering that they are experiencing right now. Thats what the American People want and thats what we have got to do. What is a realistic timeline for this relief package . It will the debate begins tomorrow, i think. That will go on, we should hopefully pass this by thursday, then we go to impeachment. I think within a few weeks my hope is that the Reconciliation Package is in the house and the senate and will in fact be passed. We got to move as quickly as we can because people are hurting. A few weeks . Yeah. I know that for the rest of the world people are saying, why are you taking so long . But for the u. S. Senate, this is lightning speed. And then how does impeachment play a role in this . I know there is talk about parallel tracks, there is a scheduling issue, there is the fact it will take attention of the body as it should because it is, in my mind, important. What do you think . Well, i think youre right. Its certainly i mean, the goal here is to show the world that the United States senate, despite all visible aspects, that we in fact can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. That is what our challenge is. So do we have to deal with impeachment . You do. It is not something i would have wanted, but when you have a president leading an insurrection to overturn a government that he swore to defend, you know, you got to deal with that. I hope we do it as quickly as possible. I hope we get bidens nominees appointed, confirmed as soon as possible, and i hope very much that we address this Reconciliation Package, pass it as quickly as possible and then i want everybody to know were going to another one. This one deals with the emergency of covid. The next one deals with some of the structural longterm problems of a crumbling infrastructure, of climate change, of education, of a whole lot of other issues so that we can create millions of goodpaying jobs and improve life in our nation. Senator Bernie Sanders, who will be soon, when the resolution passes, be chair of the Budget Committee. Thank you for taking time tonight, senator. Thank you, chris. Coming up, how the nfl managed to play a full season in the middle of a pandemic, thanks in part to what they discovered about the way the virus actually spreads. I have the power to lower my a1c. Because my body can still make its own insulin. And trulicity activates my body to release it, lowering my blood sugar from the first dose. Onceweekly trulicity responds when my body needs it, 24 7. Trulicity is for type 2 diabetes. Its not insulin. It isnt for people with type 1 diabetes. Dont take trulicity if youre allergic to it, you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Stop trulicity and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, changes in vision, or diabetic retinopathy. Serious side effects may include pancreatitis. Taking trulicity with sulfonylurea or insulin raises low blood sugar risk. Side effects include indigestion, fatigue, belly pain, decreased appetite, nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting which can lead to dehydration and may worsen kidney problems. I have it within me to lower my a1c. Ask your doctor about trulicity. There is a race on right now between vaccinating enough people and the more transmissible strains of covid popping up and spreading. Former biden covid adviser dr. Michael osterholm is sounding the alarm. The fact is that the surge that is likely to occur with this new variant from england is going to happen in the next six to 14 weeks. And if we see that happen, which my 45 years in the trenches tells me we will, we are going to see Something Like we have not seen yet in this country. England, for example, hospitalizing twice as many people as we ever hospitalized at our highest number. So we do know that if we look at these first doses, that in fact we can even get higher numbers than you just laid out by the time of the third week after vaccination. So we still want to get two doses in everyone, but i think right now in advance of the surge, we need to get as many one doses in as many people over 65 as we possibly can to reduce the serious illness and deaths that are going to occur over the weeks ahead. Right now the u. S. Is up to an average of 1. 3 million vaccine doses administered daily. It is going up. But heres the thing, thats going in the right direction, but it has to happen much faster. A chart in gray shows we still lost more than 1,500 americans to covid19 today alone. Of course, thats an undercount because it is a monday. While new cases have been trending downward in the pink graph, today saw about 120,000 new cases. Again, were past peak here, the dynamic that set in during this covid winter is that were all laser focused on the vaccine race and its deployment, which makes sense. But no matter how fast the vaccine is, we are still living with the virus in the here and now. And thats what we have been saying for almost a year now there are ways to suppress the virus with enough focus and rigor. One of the places that has figured out how to do it is the National Football league. Thats ahead. Its time for sleep numbers january sale on the new sleep number 360 smart bed what if i sleep hot . Or cold . No problem, with temperature balancing you can sleep better together. 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The idea the nfl would make it to the championship game without any kind of catastrophic disruption because of covid19 was not at all guaranteed. In fact, almost unthinkable when play kicked off in september. Yet without an abbreviated season Like Major League baseball or regional cities like the nhl or a bubble like the nba had in their first run of it, the nfl is headed toward a basically successful completion of their full season and championship, a sport in which obviously social distancing isnt possible. A new piece in the Wall Street Journal explains part of the reason for that success is the league spent a whole lot of money to learn a whole bunch about how the virus is transmitted and how to stop it. One of the Sports Reporters on that story, Andrew Beaton of the Wall Street Journal joins me now. Andrew, thanks for coming on. I learned a lot from your piece. Tell me about how the nfl and Nfl Players Association approached the problem in getting their arms around it this season. Well, if you think back to the start of the season, they werent playing in a bubble. They were playing in america. And so they knew from the very start that they would not be able to stop people from getting infected with the virus, but their whole idea was, okay, if thats going to happen, lets stop it from spreading within teams. And they implored people to wear masks, they tried to enforce social distancing protocols, they instituted daily testing. One of the interesting things they found out, not all that was Stopping Transmission of the virus within teams. And when they started looking at the data, they came to some interesting conclusions that applied to not just their Football Season but you and me here, everybody at home. Right. They have protocols in place, trying to maintain social distancing. Then you start having these outbreaks. Theres the Baltimore Ravens had a huge outbreak. There are a bunch of teams that it sort of ripped through the locker room. They start taking a look at the data which what is the data that theyre looking at . Well, the data theyre looking at is an unmatched type of data set. If you think about what the nfl was doing, there isnt really a business that had the combination of communities and resources to match it. These are 32 teams spread across the country with teams worth billions of dollars that are paying for testing every day, for hightech Contact Tracing devices. Right. That generates a lot of data. They conducted more than 900,000 tests over the course of the season. Theres a lot of information in there. And when you combine that with the Contact Tracing, what they started to find was, you know, we had been told from the start of the pandemic that we should measure our interactions with a stopwatch and a measuring stick, which is 15 minutes, 6 feet, the general guideline. But when they started looking at their cases, they were seeing that people were transmitting the virus in under 15 minutes and over 6 feet. And so that was sort of a real clear moment for them that they could look at this and say, we need to change our protocols because the virus can spread like that, and if we dont account for that, were going to have more of these outbreaks and it could really upend our season. And just reading from your reporting here, an investigation confirmed that cumulative brief interactions exceeding 15 minutes could lead to transmission, didnt have to be 15 consecutive minutes, leading the cdc to change its definition of a close contact. This information, which they were only able to derive because of the wealth of data, right . You said you got Contact Tracing devices on everyone plus testing every day. So they could actually sort of go back and Reverse Engineer how transmission happened. Then they actually published this, right . They talked to the cdc about it. Yeah, this nfl season quite literally became a cdc paper. This was published by the cdc. Whats interesting if you go back to october, there was a paper published about a vermont prison that talked about those cumulative interactions that added up to 15 minutes. It didnt just have to be one 15minute interaction, it could be three interactions in five minutes. What the nfl found is it doesnt even have to be 15 minutes, it could be under that. It doesnt even into to be six feet. It could be longer than six feet if youre in a poorly ventilated space. So what it really adds up to is a more holistic understanding of this idea of transmission, not just time and distance. Its also ventilation. Its mask wearing. Because its very different if you have an encounter outdoors, say, wearing a mask for a long time than even a brief encounter inside a car with partial mask usage. Right. So these contextual the contextual sort of differences which weve been talking about, again, as we come up on year two of the pandemic, they actually just see popping out in their data, right, because theyre able to go back and theyre seeing that poorly ventilated spaces, close contact without masks, theyre seeing transmission underneath these 6 feet, 15 minute sort of benchmarks. Yeah, exactly. You could look at a lot of these outbreaks that happened in football and could be traced back to the simple idea of Eating Dinner together, right . Right. Transmission they found wasnt happening on the football field, which sounds kind of crazy given everything we know about football involves really large people running into each other all day. If you think about it, those interactions actually add up to very brief amount of times and tend to happen in really large wellventilated spaces like an outdoor stadium or just a very large dome. When an outbreak could happen is, lets say, a couple of teammates grab a sandwich together. That data was boosted by the fact not just that they were Contact Tracing but doing genetic sequencing, so they could actually track the strains of the virus that were spreading and see, okay, when two people tested positive, did they get it from each other or get it independently . Right. Right, they had advanced fingerprints on the different types of virus, they knew exactly where it was coming from. Fascinating information. Andrew beaton, thanks very much for sharing your reporting with us. Thanks so much for having me. That is all in on this monday night. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Good evening, rachel. Good evening, chris, much appreciate it. As you can see, i, too, am joining the show from home this evening. Thats why the background here looks the way it does. No reason to worry at all. Looks the way it does. No reason to worry at all. Im snowed in tonight, like so many people are in the northeast with this gigantic winter storm. The roads where i am are totally impassable tonight, even with fourwheel drive, even with good ground clearance. And so, im home better safe than sorry. You may remember that i figured out how to set up my laptop as a makeshift camera from home when i had to broadcast from home because i was in Covid Quarantine back in november. Because i had to do that back in november, i knew i could do this again, so i just wheeled the whole setup back out again tonight. The roads are not fit for man, no