Migrants seeking entry to the us also face dangers including cramped and unhygienic conditions in Holding Camps along the southern border with mexico. Trapped refugees rescue for business thats our title this week on quadriga and here are our guests. Ana Maria Alvarez from costa rica is a refugee activist and founder of the migration hub. She says we dont combat irregular migrants by letting them die while crossing borders we do it by offering safe and regulated pathways. And fair migratory policies both for the country and for those migrating. So then so does show works at the home of university and shes an expert on migration issues she says humanitarian rhetoric alone doesnt make humanitarian policy. U. S. And e. U. Migration policies are more similar than we may face. And its a pleasure to welcome modulating factor the program he works for the daily newspaper de tiger spiegel and he says we will only achieve a humane european refugee policy. If you use it a sense a cent europe has had to tighten its borders in order to prevent right wing populist from gaining the upper hand. So so they let me start out by asking you about the numbers that were seeing as i mentioned this is in fact the biggest wave of refugees worldwide. On record since the Second World War why is that and must we expect this trend in fact to continue rising. Its indeed the case that on the refugee influx to europe has been unprecedented since World War Two but the reasons are very diverse we see people fleeing from warmer but also people searching for opportunities in europe. So im. Theres on the one hand the intensification of war and conflict in the middle east. And hardships in south america that need to large movements of people but theres also economic developments in africa. That leads to an increase in the number of migrants arriving from there and also crossing the mediterranean through libya. A number here those who advocat tighter borders often see refugees as people who are making an economic choice basically looking for a better life. Those who advocate doing more to open borders to receive them. Typically see refugees as victims for example of conflict of environmental disaster and and so on we just heard its a lot more complicated than that what does that mean for policy. Well i to just sort of a gram correctly right i mean we have to make a distinction between was a refugee in who is an Asylum Seeker and was actually looking for a partner canonical opportunities right. So we have to distinguish that in the first place and yes of course especially when when when when we talk about whats happening in the mediterranean and people fleeing out especially from leave yeah these days i mean just. I i guess was just right of the the strike happened and killed. Forty forty people in a in a in a migrant comping a levy a soul so of course hes isnt just right so what what he means for policy means that many countries have signed up and has committed to his Global Compact recently which is basically to save water intake and try. To add tried to prevent these people from dying from the sea and actually creating more safe pathways for for my rest to come all of your sleep countries like italy austria Australia United States were to one schools who sign up. Is a Global Company for example a a in a solution of course not but its a commitment from this company is toto strengthen and actually basically to take care of the pathways of migrants in when theyre migrating. But as you pointed out with your Opening Statement anti migrant sentiment essentially xena phobia often has become a driving force for right wing populism in europe but if you look at this distance statistic. Which europe has taken in only 16 of the total number of people who are fleeing its actually poor african and middle Eastern Countries that have taken in the vast bulk. Of migrants worldwide is that fair. It might not be fair and im i mean youre competing correct i mean the syrian migrants from syria they basically are in turkey and jordan and in the book. I think six million so four seven millions of them on these three countrieies combined. So if you compare to these trees countries europe in its it as a block has not taken in the loft. Thoughts and there is about to hit the but is you have to reconcile the humanitarian imperative to help those people with the acceptance of the local people and it seems to be lacking a huge part of acceptance of it as you mentioned in your question the first part of the question. And your witness as a sick consequence of this the rise of a lot of basically right wing populism in europe that does that. That is the consequence of noble open border policy. That so its not a question of fairness its questioion off how many could be reconciled with societies in the states. Selena as you implied in your Opening Statement there is a lot of humanitarian rhetoric in europe but you were essentially saying that the practice. Is Something Else the fact is there is a strong body of migration law in place we have rules and systems and processes for how to deal with the flow of migrants but obviously that system is broken or we wouldnt be having this conversation. Yes so the body of law does not reflect the political reality and this is something that i want to come back to which is. Making this connection between the influx of refugees and right wing populism is not that clear right. The countries that are most opposed to it in europe namely poland and im hungry there isnt those of the countries that had the least influx of refugees in europe right so they they base their anti refugee rhetoric. On sort of a threat perception around refugees right and this is this is the thing that we have to tackle i dont think. People are opposed to the humanitarian idea of taking in refugees i think what they are afraid of is the unregulated uncontrolled way that refugees are entering. So bice and should not save people from the mediterranean because that will fuel right wing support i dont think is the real narrative the narrative is. To bring people over to europe safely. And have them thatd have them background checked and be humanitarian also in the size of migrants that we want to bring in not just saying we just shut it off in order. To you know drain of the the right wing rhetoric thats not what we should do i think this is also not the i am the solution to this restaurant because it is based on a threat perception rather than on reality in my opinion. I would come back to you mother i know you wanted to respond to that but lets just. Take a brief look at the situation in the meditator mediterranean and particularly a look at just how dysfunctional the practice and there has become it was illustrated in the past few weeks. When we saw a crisis that essentially pitted the captain of a german refugee ship against italys populist leader . Its elise interior minister Matteo Salvini nicknamed capitano. Does this not to his love of the sea but to his strict policy on refugees. She only of the hunt is a real captain german refugee aid worker hello to kato. Many consider her a hero. Two weeks ago she took fifty three refugees aboard the sea watch three important to it to make. Despite cell beanies entry bond she finalally decided on the saturday night and to the ports on the small italian island of lampedusa. We declared a state of necessity because the psychological situation and t the military conditition has been wororsenino much that i cannot guauarantee e safety of the rescue people. The captain was under arrest for several days for entering the fourth illegally because see watch three collided with a Border Patrol by. Ill be neat things she should spend is behind bars. Is that what it says it was a criminal it will like. This couple advocates a hero or criminal. Some of the whos right. The captain of ms racket or so many. The captain is right i mean you have to save lifes point theres no discussion about it and theres no but to it theres nothing else. Its a humanitarian imperative to kind of let people die who are neat. So theres nothing to add for i having said that there is a dilemma we are facing the dilemma is you dont want to encourage people. To go on a on a on an adventurous trip. That might kill you. So by saving lives because sometimes just sending messages. To two people who are coming so this is the dilemma. You cannot escape just easily and saying i want to blend out the the consequences of it. You have to safely but there is no but to it but there is sosomething that youre in coaching people to go on this i want to take that point to the other guests in just a moment let me just ask you. One other thing that goes back to your Opening Statement and the idea that we may have to tighten borders in order to prevent right wing populist from gaining the upper hand in fact dont actions like cell viennese tightening the borders of italy in many ways feed to the kind of xenophobia that silly just described rather than actually reducing it. Its hard to say what what what is first in one second it was the consequence of what i mean its its really seems to be an example that i mean the legal nord. Where shes of the party chief off his game the legal note is up in the polls . I think its now a a a support a rate of 35 of the delegates. This is terrifying even. Even salvini is making all these speeches maybe hes fueling it. But maybe hes just reflecting a sentiment that is an attorney in italy as you mentioned in the first place was one of the countries that most refugees came in from the mediterranean. They had a huge influx of of of of of immigrants so this is a very very complicated it did connection between what causes what there is clearly example phobicic sentiments inviting populace the task before it. You have to fight these xenophobic anti foreigner sentiment on the other hand you have to reflect. That there is no consensus in the societies in europe about how many migrants could be could be. Coming into one country so let me come back now to this question of incentives and disincentives because that in fact was in your Opening Statement on a merry that you said we wont to combat illegal migration by letting people die at the borders is that in fact what you think salvini is doing trying to disincentive ice people. To calm and clearly you dont think it works in that case irregular migration of course im im to my family and i dont i dont think anybodys illegal but absolutely i mean what what we should not falling to attend us and they have a particular agenda and they have. Been using i mean calling United States collins a in italy as well in in countries where they dont have that many refuse or migrants coming. Its an agenda and we we need to find a way how we kind how can we do with the Civil Society and tell them not to fall into these agenda which she is dina mice in the the the fight of migrants exist and basically what we should be working on what we should be doing is to kind of bring by the dignity to migrants which weve been using in the past three years for political agendas. So so of course hes not right i am so so. The the problem here is that the the more with fun under discussion whether see watch the the right thing or not of course it is theres no point out of the spine. I mean but the process that is going to continue out of fear i dont think that he is going to stop there. Because i mean theyre theyre gonna continue coming and whos going to be out there whos going to risk their their their their personal liability in and and their organizations to going continue rescuing. For examample there is this a boat a gererman board call y you and tell who ws just really such a thing this week after two years of being kept by italian government. So they couldnt go out to all parading them in the dirt Mediterranean Sea for two years i mean we would be supporting somebody should be these organizations were actually doing. The most of these sent act of humanity. So from that let me just. Pronounced one thing i mean if you look at stuff just italy from finland to greece from the netherlands to denmark two fronts and all these countries there had been a a backlash of the two thousand fifteen backers from from government saying. And they took over the the rhetoric of reviving pop is we need to secure our borders we need stricter policies and so on and so on because the pressure from all the societies. Were just growing on these governments. So then do you have any sympathy for italys position hasnt the e. U. In many ways let italy bear the brunt of the refugee crisis at least in the mediterranean. Yeah i mean theres two important points that i did that i think are worth making in this debate im. First is i dont think this is a room a crisis of refugee numbers this is a crisis of refugee a commendation and refugee policy. This is why we experience the backlash after two thousand fifteen because the e. U. Hasnt been able to practice real solidarity. And provide an infrastructure that helps countries stem the influx of migrants i dont think its americans themselves. Wed have to take a hard look not at securing our borders and making sure fewer migrants com we have to take a hard look at european solidarity. And how we will manage refugee influxes in the future because this is not a story that is over now this is going to be something that we will deal with in the future as well. And if we just close our eyes and say okay ones if we keep the refugees outside of european borders than our problems solved this is not the case. And the second point i want to make is. This idea of this symbolic discussion about saving refugees from the mediterranean and and this is why were incentivizing them this is closing our eyes towards the real issues that drive migration the real push factors. Its not the push factor or the pull factor if we save people in the mediterranean the real push factors are economic. Are security our Climate Change our Technological Progress and if we keep having those place holder debates about a few both saving lives which is in humanitarian imperative which youuve set. The stop. Talking about thehe real issues and this is what we have to fight we have. To push these these placeholder debabates away and Start Talking about the real push and pull factors and this is not what we do with this. At see whats debate so essentially cillian is saying that this is very much about the fact that once refugees do arrive in europe or in the United States we are not doing enough as you said to accommodate them to integrate them to process their their asylum applications. And so it interestingly enough most of that actually was a point that was made by savini in relation to the sofia missions sophia is enable mission. Of the e e. U. I i t think an operation since twenty fifteenn the idea was to trtry to stop human smuggling. In the mediterranean particularly coming out of libya but elsewhere as well so vinny has complained that the mission has turned into essentially a refugee rescue mission in which the refugees are than simply. Deposited on italian territory rather than being distributed across the e. U. In accordance with existing in you what does he have a point. I think sophia rescued forty four thousand people in the mediterranean and and as i said the the humanitarian imperative is always so strong you say you have to rescue these people on the other hand. I already described what i would call the dilemma. The more the route you rescue the more people feel they will be rescued. I think there is a preventive eyes theyre illegal migration if there is i mean theyre clearly they all and get the connecting themself they all of them felt the mobiles and talking about how to come to your because thats what they want. And i dont blame them that they want to come but its its its just let how the system works i mean i would love to have. A common europeaean refugee poly and would love to have under the muck of the german chancellor try to have it for four years. Every week every month every day was saying we need that we need a fair quota system and so on and so on and she couldnt get because europee iss not united n refugee policy. So this is yes youre right we need one but we dont have. The discussion about incentives and disincentives has played a very big role in the us debate as well so lets now turn to the situation on the southern border of the United States. And take a look at the at the problems theyre refugees are drowning there as well as here as a recent photo showed two very powerful effect. This image has circulated around the world. Oscar ramirez and his nearly two year old daughter and you. Were trying to flee when they drowned in the pool to read every grande. They came from el salvador ading for the United States but like so many others they didnt make it. Home in el salvador oscars mother rosa ramirez clings to belongings and photos of her son and granddaughter. And the demons that had come in monday. The last thing he said to me on saturday. Was mama mama i love you they are moment full time worry with fine we then send us that was his last message. The lady is in fact. Even if the father and daughter how to cross the river things wouldnt have been easy for them in america under donald trump thee police and right wing militia hunting down immigrants from latin america like never before. Tens of thousands of them are being held in us prisons and camps men women a and children. Hardly anyone is allowed to sta. You wouldnt believe the street. These are people. These are animals and were taking them out of the country at a level at the ready thats never happened before. Is the American Dream no longer for everyone. Anna maria donald trump has long been talking about a crisis at the southern border and in fact the recent numbers appear to be bearing him out. Why are we see and what is truly at an enormous tide of people coming across that border and what is prompting acts of such desperation as oscacar ramirez . Trying to swim with his toddler daughter. Nobody would put a their son or daughter in the water if the land would be more dangerous and also lets lets not forget tha. Central america especially the norden triangle has a history with the United States over decades even the last century. But out recently and then we we cannot forget that by the end of last year we saw this car button and all people coming together from the north and north and triangle. Because the journey of the the role which was very dangerous for many of them who are fleeing out ever since two thousand and twelve we saw a real peak and increase of of migrants particularly on the complainant miners. So this is the time to the car when they organize themselves together because the road is very dangerous especially crossing crossing mexico theyre having a lot of deals in non right now donna tron is trying to basically. A push mexico to deal with the whole with the whole situation in fact yesterday a federal court ruled. That edies unconstitutional for donald trump to keep these people in Detention Centers without a hearing because what so now we can say that with donald trump is doing is unconstitutional. Just tell us very briefly what the conditions are like in those Detention Centers there was a lot of there was a big headline recently about the fact that Young Children were being held without access to soap and toothpaste conditions have been called. In humane what is the problem they are why our border authorities unable to provide. Humane care now. I mean lets not forget that these people are fleeing out from violence draw card chills and poverty. Im and and when they arrested a border specially many of them since last year in november with the kind of and their their children were separated from their parents so theyre still there together where it where. There is a numbered around 20002000300 children who many of them are alone and thats already besides this con constitutional before dame their Asylum Seeker process is is going but its completely the probable to have that many people concentrating and bury it and spaces which is not even. Not even for them on top of their data along and nobodys taking care of them so battle ready by. By by itself its already its already run so then is it a is it a funding issue or is it perhaps again an issue of attempting to deter migration by showing people that conditions are abysmal donald trump has said something of that. That nature would you describe that motivation to the entire u. S. Government. I think theres theres a combination of again a management crisis and the inability to prepare for things that they themselves have been warning about for months and but we see parallels with european policy as well right so we see donald trump threatening mexico with terrorists would germany is doing over at the e. U. Is doing is. Traveling around african Offering Development assistance to curb migration right we extend the number of safe third countries in europe and trump wants to make a deal with mexico as a tree tm and immigration security treaty to treat. Mexico as the country sort of a dublin system wherere they haveo claim asylum in mexico themselves so. Theres a lot of parallels not on only in the infantry that you show before but also in the policy level but surely it is not false to give Development Assistance to try to help people in the countries. Where they live . So the question is why do we give Development Assistance right do we give it to actually foster Economic Growth in those countries or is it. Sort of a financial incentive to decrease migration. But but but it is a funding issue because there is there is always lean distant in the centers there needs to be there needs to be a better better conditions. But what we have to do is to basically call the congress to money toward what is happening with that money because that moneys not arriving for the people who are convention cente. Montel naming one sentence let me take us back to our title trust refugees rescue for a bit do you think we will see the system change anytime soon no. This is a very very short answer but i conceal conceited consensus in the European Union i kansi a consensus in the United States even though. The Democratic Party is not an open border party as well because of they even supported for billions of money to secure the borders there so can have to cut you off right there thank you all for being with us thanks to all of you out there for tuning in so you sent bond Common Ground committeeee is a Grassroots Organization and were focused onn bringing light not heat to public discourse, and d one of the thingss wevve learned d is that if youou want to b bring lightht tto a conversatition, itits a goodod idea to listen fifirst. What t is the role ththat our Political Leadership can play in that issue . Aand thats what were going to be focucusing on today, and i have to say i think w we have a p pretty awawesome panenel to talklk abot that t particulalar topic,c, dodont you t think . Dodont you t think . [audience applauds]