That produce them, activities like mining and burning coal. Thousands of protesters say that has to end. But at what price . Climate change, who pays to save the planet . That is the question we are posing today on quadriga. Here are our guests. Claudia kemfert is the head of the energy, transportation, and Environment Department of the German Institute for economic research. She also serves as a member of the German Advisory Council on the environment, which consults with the federal government. She says, smart people dont waste time stuck in the past. They invest in the Growth Markets of the future. Markets that will belong to those who can spot them first. It is a pleasure to welcome my colleague christopher springate, who is a Political Correspondent for dw tv. He is also covering the Climate Change conference in bonn. He says, pumping Greenhouse Gases into the atmosphere is tantamount to sawing off the branch were sitting on. Protecting our planet from Climate Change is a prerequisite for keeping jobs. And finally, its a pleasure to have malte lehming once again on the show. He writes political and opinion columns on german and International Issues for the tagesspiegel. He says, climateprotection goals must be given a stronger legal framework. We also need a precise timetable, for example, on ending the use of coalfired power. I would like to talk, first of all, about the prospects for this years Climate Change conference, which has gotten underway in the city of bonn. Fijis prime minister, who i mentioned is the president of this years conference, says his goals are to garnish support for vulnerable island nations like his own, and to build very concretely on the goals of the Paris Agreement. Focusing for the moment on the first of those things, can a conference like this one truly deliver meaningful help in time . Claudia i would say so. This is a working conference. We have all the Paris Agreement behind us, and all the countries are still on board. The u. S. Is not because they can only step out three years from now, so we have to make itt concrete. Who is paying, and the green bonds, for example, the Clean Technology bond, who is taking which steps . Little boring,a but it is important because we have to keep track and see where we are in the future. Melinda christopher springate, a skeptic might say we are talking about this for years and years and years, and the projected level of temperature rise, the projected level of sea level rise, remains far too high. Say,topher the skeptics why have such huge conferences . The fact is, it is a truly global challenge, and a truly global issue. It is something that all of the globes nations have to agree on. I think the key thing to understand is that fighting Climate Change will only work if everybody is on board. That is why this conference is actually far more important than it appears. If you go back to 2008, the conference in that year failed to do this they do work ahead of in 2009,hagen summit which is why the summit failed. So this Climate Summit this year work thishe spade year, because by next year, the world will have to agree on roles, how to report their emissions cuts in a verifiable way, in a comparable way, in a way that everybody can trust and buy into. Melinda which means in bonn, it comes down to, can the nations taking part actually deliver actions to back up all the nice words that have been issued so far you go so far . Malte the impression is, we have 197 nations participating. Since 1992, we have the kyodo agreement and the Paris Agreement and the omissions are still going up. Are still going up. I think the conference has a value in itself. It shows the whole word the whole world is fighting against something that is hard to comprehend, that the way that we produce energy is causing tornadoes, rising sea levels, and so on, and really affecting the lives of everybody on earth. Just right now, we are talking about this for 25 years. 25 years to combine the whole world of this notion is success. Melinda we will come back to whether the whole world is really on board. First, dear viewers, if you are lucky enough to live in a stable and temperate climate zone, you may still think of Global Warming as a future contingency. That in fact, it is a very distinct reality to the millions already beingare affected by sealevel rise and extreme weather events. Lets take a look. First, hurricane harvey. Then, hurricane irma, plowed into the caribbean and the u. S. Gulf coast, killing over 200 people. Thousands lost their homes. The total damage estimate for both storms is about 200 billion. Asia, millions of people have been affected by severe monsoon rains. The floods this year have been the worst in decades. East africa, on the other hand, has been hit hard by a drought. These conditions are lasting longer than they used to. Europe has seen its share of extreme weather. Last month, hurricane ophelia slammed into ireland, and cyclone xavier tore acacross northern europe. Germany was hit particularly hard. The u. N. Predicts that 2017 will be one of the warmest years since records began in the 19th century. This is making life difficult in many developing countries. Who will pay the price for all of this . Germany, as the world knows, is struggling with that record influx of refugees from 2015. Is migration part of what you might call the price that northern countries will increasingly be paying for Global Warming . Migration is a price, but i think the 1. 2 million refugees that are coming to germany since the fall of 2015, the overwhelming majority dont come for climate reasons. They come from war zones in syria, afghanistan, iraq, african nations that are falling apart, eritrea is one of the big ones. I think right now, it will grow. Migration will grow as a problem in itself. The climate reasons, as well. Right now it isnt. Christopher can i point out, there is a body of scientific theren that believes that was a terrible drought in syria in 2011, the countrys worst a wave ofht, caused refugees within that country, and some studies indicate that that is what actually contributed considerably to the outbreak of civil war in syria, and of course, that civil war produced a huge wave of migration to europe. Argue i would strongly against that. The uprising that started in spilledand to egypt and into syria, i dont think the costs of all of this the cause of all of this is Climate Change. Claudia there is no proof yet christopher there is no proof yet. Malte there may be links but i dont see the real reason is Climate Change. Christopher we have so many african migrants because, and this is a cost of Climate Change, a drought kills farms and jobs. Toy have nothing to lose trek across the sahara, to risk their lives going across the mediterranean and try to find work here. Melinda would you like to be a tiebreaker on this issue . The security conference put climate risk on the agenda as a security risk, not least because of migration. Claudia it is a huge security risk. It will be in the future. It is clear that the scientific findings right now are not that theen right now, but scientific r reports on migratin and Climate Change show that migration will play a crucial role, and especially europe, its a factor here. We have to take this into account and be prepared and do everything we can to reduce Climate Change, to mitigate emissions, and have the regions most affected by Climate Change, and africa for example. The munichthat security conference, and those areas there where they discuss international security, take Climate Change on the agenda, because it is so important. The geopolitical conflicts are there, and Climate Change is increasing those conflicts. This is why it is important. Melinda lets talk about what can be done to mitigate the risk and support those who need to adapt. As we saw in the film, christopher springate, those who are already suffering worst from Climate Change are very often, if not always, those who did least to contribute to the causes. Do the Paris Agreement and into institutions like the Green Climate fund go far enough to remedy that asymmetry . Whostopher it depends on you are asking. If you are asking industrialized western countries, most of the politicians representing those countries would say yes, but if you ask people from poor natiois , the developing world, that is one of the things they criticize about the Paris Agreement, that it didnt force the rich world to make more serious financial compensatory commitments. That is a contentious word. One of the issues that is likely to play secondary perhaps, but an Important Role at this years Climate Summit, is the issue of loss and damage. Fiji will put that on the agenda. Law moves us into courts of , and there is in fact an increasing trend for people taking their own countries, or other countries, to court over the losses and damages that they say they have suffered because of Climate Change. At the moment, the causal relationship between Climate Change and these losses and damages is still difficult to prove, but research, there is so Much Research going on on Climate Science and what they call attributional science. Its Getting Better and better. Malte it is important. I think climate isnt the same as weather conditions. We cant attribute Climate Change to every event we saw in these pictures, the tornadoes and the rising sea levels. Rising sea levels, yes, but not tornadoes and other weather conditions. We need scientific, if the climatologists can p prove the link and the causal link between certain kinds of producing emissions and weather events, that would help a lot. I think the word scientists the work scientists are doing is important, not least because of legal battles. If you can prove it, starting in the United States with Tobacco Companies causing cancer. If we can prove the same amount of casual links on this level, that would prove a lot. Melinda a brief response. Can show the i Scientific Community is that the intensity of these weather events increases, and this is already damage. Higher . He damage much we have to see the economics behind this because in rich nations, we have high damages, like the u. S. In florida. Poor nations like africa, the damages a lot. This is why it is so difficult from the Economic Perspective to get the right answer to this. Melinda you said in your Opening Statement that it is time to invest in the markets of the future. The fact is, many developing countries are going to find themselves putting scarce capital into adaptation, inducible fortifying infrastructure. Resettling displaced people who can no longer live in coastal areas. Again, how can we best support them . What are the best mechanisms, instruments out there . Claudia we have to reduce emissions, and this is the best investment we can do into emission mitigation. Rich country, we can invest and we should invest and we are doing investing into clean technologies, Renewable Energy, energy saving, infrastructure that helps those regions, as well. We saw with the german policy to bring down the cosost for Renewable Energy, that was the investment we did here. It helps already developing countries. China invest heavily into Renewable Energy already, wind and solar. African countries continue, as well. This is our job, to bring down the costs of Clean Technology. Then, those countries have a chance. Nevertheless, we are not fast enough, and that is why this conference is a global conference, and is disappointing to a certain point because a missions are still high and this is why it causes damages to ththose nations. This is why we have to give money for this adaptation fund. We would be more happy to have no adaptation because we couldnt remove climate impact, but that is not likely. Investmentto have into adaptation fund, as well. Priority is, emission mitigation. Atinda lets look closer emission mitigation, which is the central purpose of the paris climate agreement. It was designed to be a hybrid andeen binding plans voluntary action. It sets out goals and plans. They were devised by the countries themselves, and one breakthrough that made the agrereement possible was an agreement between the worlds biggest co2 imagers, namely the u. S. And china. They decided together to sign up. Now, donald trump says that was a mistake. Here is President Trump signing an executive order aimed at dismantling key elements of the obama administrations effort to combat Climate Change. Together, we will create millions of Good American jobs. Also, so many energy jobs. And really, lead to unbelievable prosperity all throughout our country. And a lot of americans were upset that the u. S. Pulled out of the paris climate agreeeemen. Can the agreement survive without the United States . Melinda christopher, the u. S. Has sent a delegation to bonn. Can we be sure its only function will be to resist . We have seen the u. S. Government , a number of government agencies, sign up to a report that says Climate Change israel, drastic andreal, manmade. The government in the United States seems to be speaking out of both sides of its mouth. Christopher this is fascinating. How will the americans behave . They say they will represent u. S. Interests. That can be anything. Interesting, the u. S. Delegation at these types of summits comes from the state department. Rex tillerson, the secretary of state, is thought to be, to have a different opinion about Climate Change compared to his boss, President Trump. U. S. Is still at the table. They are still at the table until 2020, when the announcement to withdraw from the Paris Agreement actually comes into effect. They have even been given, onee of their delegates has been given a leading role in one of the key negotiating panels, and i think the interesting thing is, the u. S. Has played such a positive role at many climate this particular presidency, this particular summit, is trying to keep the u. S. On board. People are perhaps nervous about how the u. S. Is going to behave, but they are also quietly confident. I think if the u. S. Delegates coal to push trumps policies, procoal, progas, everything he has been talking about, they will get angry very quickly with the americans. Their delegation is far smaller. They havent been a preclimate briefing. We are all waiting to see how they will behave. This is a central issue in terms of keeping other countries on board. You said in your Opening Statement that we need clearer rules and real roadmaps going forward. Can we hope to get that while everybody is watching to see whether the major emitter is still on board a not . Malte donald trump is not america. That is good news. When i arrived in the u. S. , shortly before the Supreme Court made the al gore versus george bush at decision, there was a climate fighting president in the white house. I wouldnt call it grassroots level, but the level of the states, like california, colorado, other states, and big cities. You had Something Like a Climate Conference on this level. It is fighting hard and doing a good job. On the electronic level, elon tesla, research and development. You have so many climate fighting technologies invented in the u. S. A couple of decades ago. Donald trump is not the usa, and the moment from his saying no to paris has not been proven right. The g20 summit, 19 of the g20 states were behind the Paris Agreement. The last country except the United States was syria to sign the Paris Agreement. Melinda and they are now signing up. Malte they just signed up. , it is Claudia Kemfert all about jobs. Donald trump has promised coal miners a comeback. Give us the costs and benefits in terms of jobs. You said in your Opening Statement, promising green markets go to those who spot them. How many jobs does clean energy create . Many technologies rd central. They are smallscale. Are they really going to replace things like cold jobs . Claudia they are needed. This is the reality in the u. S. , because trump is not usa. They have invested and are still investing in Renewable Energy. Texas invest a lot into wind and solar. There is increasing jobs in this area. There is one million jobs in the solar energy alone, which is 10 times of those people working in the coal sector. If trump wants to get the coal back, he has to subsidize them heavily, which increases the electricity prices. I dont think the americans will like that. See he is, we announcing a lot, but at the end, there is not much happening. We will see. The omissions are going down in the u. S. Because of fracking gas, which replaces coal, and increasing renewal. The reality is different than what trump says. Christopher the secondbiggest emissioner is china and china is on board. Malte this helps very much. Is one placee where admissions havent been going down and that is here in germany. This country is proud of its the transformation of its Energy System away from nuclear towards renewable. The fact is, it is burning coal, and the fact is, apparently there are quite a few politicians who subscribe to some of Donald Trumps arguments. Burning coall comes become an issue in the Coalition Negotiation . Trump is not such an outlier after all. Malte i would not compare him to the federal government and Angela Merkel or the greens or the ftp. They are on board in principle. They dont deny that there is man Climate Change happening, and it has to be stopped. This is completely different to what donald trump says. I would say that there is no comparison, that you cant mix them. You are right, germany has a lot to do, more than it does at the moment. I think it was a mistake from the greens to say no, we dont take 2030 is the time limit, we take that out of negotiations with the new government. I think this was a mistake from the greens. We need to have certain timetables to force industry and all of the participants to focus on a certain time when they have to change. ,elinda Claudia Kemfert another paradox, germany has seen its Major Car Companies caught up in a scandal whereby they have fudged diesel emissions. How can this country, the host of the Climate Change conference, ask other countries to sign up to stricter rules when its own most Important Corporation fudge . Good question. It is embarrassing for germany. The one thing, the coal sector is very dominant. They made the stake in reducing the Renewable Energy sector and the locking blocking Renewable Energy and gasfired power plants are standing still and coalfired power prensa power plants are producing omissions. Immediately after the scandal, they should have decided to change. The investment into the future is already happening. You mentioned california and china. They are investing into electric mobility, so the germans are losing those markets and that is really bad. Melinda christopher springate, give us your opinion on the following. Your Opening Statement said that protecting the climate is a prerequisite for keeping jobs. Certainly, that would appear to be true in the longterm, but weve got a shortterm problem here. What would you say to all of those politicians who say that Climate Action destabilizes the entire political system by feeding populism, by feeding rightwing sentiment in so far as it destabilizes old industry . Christopher if you dont address Climate Change, it is going to get worse. You are going to have more chaos, more strife, you are going to lose more jobs. You will have conflict. You will have catastrophic. Limate change there is a window of opportunity at the moment. It is about 10 years, and the longer we wait, the smaller the window is. If you think of it as a graph, we can transform our economy from a fossil fuel renewable at a nice pace at the moment. The more you wait, the steeper the curve becomes and the more difficult it becomes. We have to start now. It will save jobs. Melinda thank you very much. Thank you for being with us here today, and thanks to all of you out here for tuning in. See you soon. August dannehl gourmrmet mility foodod . Hoorah. Im augustst dannehl. Im a chef and navy veteran. Folollow me as i travel the word uncovering some ofof the mostt intriguing, delicious, and meaningful food operations in the military and veteran commmmunity. Well talk shop with some e ofe hottest chefefs in l. A. , get thr take on the modern military ration, and cook up some inventive dishes insnspired by our travels. This isnt t your typical chow hall. These ararent your granandfaths warar stories. This is meals ready to eat. On this episode of mre, well go dedeep inside e the u. S. Ars natick labs to see how the infamous mre or field ration