Weinstein with the words that sexually aggressive behavior in the Film Industry is over. But is it really . In the millions of women who have told their stories on social media under the hashtag metoo describe the pervasive pattern that transcends cultures and epochs. Whether and how that pattern can be broken is what we want to discuss today on quadriga. Sexism male perpetrators, female victims . Thats our title. Here are our guests. It is a pleasure to welcome stefanie lohaus, founder and coeditor of the german language missy magazine, which is dedicated to covering pop, politics, and feminism. She says sexist comments are a part of a rape culture. They are intended to keep women in their place and undermine them. And its a pleasure to welcome birgit kelle. She is an author and freelance columnist who writes frequently on gender topics. She says, how often do we as women sell ourselves, prostitute ourselves, willingly and opportunistically, because its useful to say me too years later is too little . And its a pleasure to have alan posener with us on the show once again. Hes a commentator for the german daily newspaper die welt. He says, it has been well said that men fear women because they might laugh at them, whereas women fear men because thehey might t kill them. Lets start out by taking a look at this pattern that is coming to light in the wake of the revelations about harvey weinstein. The fact is, just in the past 10 days, nearly 2 million women from 85 countries have shared their stories of Sexual Assault and or harassment under this hashtag, metoo. Im going to get a little bit personal for a moment. That pattern is definitely familiar to me. As a young lawyer and a young journalist, i experienced Sexual Harassment both in an interview situation, one of my very first interviews as a young lawyer, and also on assignment when i was traveling with people who were my male bosses. So, just let me briefly ask the two of you, have you had such experiences . Definitely definitely. Before i became a journalist, i was working in the technical field. My colleagues were actually quite feminist, but it was customers who could not deal with the fact that i was a woman dealing with technical things. They were telling me, why didnt you become a teacher . You are such a pretty girl. After being sexist to me, thenng me sexist comments, they were trying to invite me to dinner. I have had this experience. In journalism, not so much because im working with women a lot, so i dont have that problem, but it actually made me change my profession because i was thinking what i want is for the rest of my life or not. Melinda birgit kelle . Yes, i think everyone and has experienced this. I worked as a waitress when i was a student. I think every waitress knows bad behavior by men. Theres also a difference between the customers, and my colleagues and bosses, they always protected us. Menave men like this, and like this. But i think everyone in has to tell a story. Melinda and the two of you, and that experience, did you experience fear or feel threatened . Did it limit your choices . You talked about not staying in that field. You were saying how that limitation had to do with this. I wasnt afraid, but i got really angry. I was crying with anger. I didnt know what to do. I thought we didnt have a problem with sexism anymore. I was really young. It was my first experience, so graphic. Afterwards thinking back, i can think of more stuff i didnt want to notice at that time that were not as obvious. It made me angry. It is part of why i started a feminist magazine, actually. Birgit i do not look back with bad feelings, because i never felt like i cant do anything. Me, it was bad behavior by men, but i also had bad behavior by women. I always felt protected by other men, too, at the same moment. I cant say that im looking back with bad feelings and would change something. Stefanie i think what made me so angry was the fact that i was objective side. Know areres what i whats in my brain. Looksnly related to my and it made me feel angry. Melinda i have to confess that i felt afraid. I was alone in a room in all of these incidents, and i did not see what kind of records i would have. We can come back to that later. Let me ask alan posener now. When you hear about all these many tales coming out, would you say you are surprised at this, at the extent . We are hearing from a lot of men who say, wow, i never realized it was this widespread. Does that apply to you . Alan i think probably like most men, yes and no. On the one hand, you are shocked. If famous and powerful women can be preyed upon in a very liberal society that hollywood is an america is in this way, you are shocked. At the same time, in a way, you knew it. You didnt want to know. Man,he very fact that as a we are constantly pushing this out of our consciousness is part of the problem. The fact that you can go on, although you actually know it i am the son of a mother, the husband of a wife, father of a daughter, grandfather of two granddaughters. Do it. Thats part of the problem. Before i was a journalist, i was a teacher. It is an open secret that in all the schools in germany, girls are harassed by male teachers. Its an open secret. It happens every day. As we speak, it is happening. These are not people being protected. They are being subjected to humiliation by people who then give them marks for their papers or whatever, who have the power to control their futures, who can make them look silly, who can do this and that. In many cases, girls go home , if they are from patriarchal families, and then they get even worse when they go home. And unless im doing what you do, working all the time to expose and deal with subnd give people conscience, i shove it to the other part of my mind and deal with, how many immigrants are we going to have . Thats the problem. Melinda if you look back for yourself in light of this discussion, would you say there are incidences where you feel you yourself have behaved improperly . Alan oh, yes. Yes. As a teacher toward students. In a criminal since, sense, but even the way i thought about them. It is a double bind for women or girls in school. If they are pretty, people are going to say, she gets good marks because shes teachers pet, she is pretty. Its half of a truth. You it is the truth know, even when i was a student, i was in a progressive school, and they were very proud of being progressive. We sat on the teachers board when they discussed things that went on in the school, a reform school. There was a girl. Someone said, the teacher said of her, she is boy crazy. It happened to be a girl i was in love with at the time. Instead of standing up, i was 16, i just felt ashamed. Was in the 1960s. It is still going on. Melinda shame, of course, is a common denominator is to many of these stories so many of the stories. Lets take a closer look at these stories. It is certainly not confined to the world of entertainment nor the u. S. The stories we hear transcends cultures and epochs. Lets recall a few exampleles fm e e political hehere. Guerrillas. They are known as alpha males. S. U. S. President donald trumump probably considers himself one. In a conversation caught on tape to a journalist he said, you can do it. They let you do anything. It didnt hurt his campaign. Trump won the election and became president. Orilla, a differentime, doesnt matter. In the 1990s, u. S. President bill clinton sought to quash allegations are denying the allegation. Mr. Clinton i did not have sexual relations with that woman. Efforts to impeach the then president failed. Glad for his public support during t the 2016 prpresident ial racace. Gorilla, but his actions might too far. Dominique strausskahn, former head of the imf, was arrested in the u. S. For allegedly raping a hotel maid. In the end, there e were fewew l consequences. Men abusing power. Where is the backlash . Predict how bridget kelle, i go back to your Opening Statement. Arent you blaming the victim . Birgit no, i think this is part of the truth. If you are in your money by presenting yourself and your body, and people watch your body. Justve those women who sell themselves. Its ok if they do it because they want to. Its ok. It is not a moral thing. But we have to realize we also have women who dont have a problem with all this. Sot makes the discussion difficult, because on one hand, we had some women who are forced, and other women as well. I think at the beginning of the discussion, we have to divide only men because not can be sexist, but we also have women who like to play these games and profit from it. Melinda the young women in the case of mr. Weinstein, many of them are not even acting yet. Birgit i know, i dont talk about mr. Weinstein, i talk about other women. For example, the bunnies in the mansion of hugh hefner. Was it forced to do things like this, to live there . As a woman, you can take another job. Nobody is forced to be a bunny. But we have women stefanie i would like to add a different perspective. That is oldschool patriarchy. Of course, in patriarchy, we have women finding their way around if they want to gain power. In this case, we know, there is a recent study in germany that it is easier for women to become rich i marrying by marrying than working. Birgit is it then wrong that they do that . Stefanie no, the system is wrong. What we should talk about is how to change the patriarchal system, because nobody should have to marry or undress just to become two increase in society. Excuse. T an we still need to talk about the violence of Sexual Harassment. We should not derail it by talking about other women. Melinda your Opening Statement talked about rape culture, and said that menus assault to keep women down that men use assault to keep women down. Cases, we arese not talking about the exercise of physical power so much as economic power, arent we . Birgit i think these kinds of discrimination, excesses of, sexism, racism, the power of distribution in society, the more money you have, the more power you have. The more powerful weinstein men were very powerful, he was able to keep up the Sexual Harassment because he was so powerful. Not every man can do this. Sexualmonality between violence, harassment, and verbal sexism is the same, making women feel insecure, like me in the workplace, but of course there is a difference in the outcome or affect. Melinda alan posener, does that resonate with you . Do you say we live in a rape culture . Alan worldwide, it is certainly true. Look at india. Look at the arab world. Birgit has not mentioned this, but in many of her pieces, she tries to make a difference between these things. You can see with clinton, the nott about bill clinton was monica linsky, the point was paula jones. Brought to him by state troopers. It is obvious ill clinton has something to do with the rape culture, which we know from india and the arab world. The point is this is the tip of a global iceberg, which we see occasionally in the cases like harvey weinstein. Every day women are raped, not only by women of by men of color, but by their friends, their articles, the friends of their mothers, it happens every day in families all over germany. I have to say it is a work rape culture. Melinda we are essentially talking about the degree of choice that women face and also what constitutes duress, force. Let us briefly hear a statement from a woman who wasas a victimf sexual abuse in the workplace. I quit pursuing acting as a career. I have told parts ofof this stoy told me very few people over the only a very few people over the years. I felt so powerless. I didnt think anyone would believe me. I was nobody. Why would they . , what would birgit you have advised her to do differently . Is there a scenario where she doesnt emerge as a victim with heher choices . I dont know exactly this case since it was just a few seconds, but i think we have to make a difference. I think women in the western world have more opportunities to do something, she has much more , she has so much help to get. The law system is on her side, so she can get help. I think this is the difference we have to make. You mentioned it already. We have countries in the world where we really have a rape culture, as a woman you do not have the opportunity, where you have men who dont even do something wrong, because in their country it is by law what they are doing. I mentioned we have immigration at the moment in germany, from men from those countries, who how can i say . How to be with a woman in germany, because they are socialized in countries and in cultures where they just treat women bad, and they dont even feel wrong. Melinda ok. Staying with the best Case Scenario of the western legal intem, stefanie lohaus, cases like weinstein or the fox news anchor bill oreilly, women did have legal complaints. What happened is there were settlements. Big legal settlements. One woman got as much as 30 million from bill oreilly. They then signed nondisclosure agreements, these women, that they would not talk about the story. Is that the right way for the legal system to work in these cases, or does that simply allow the pattern to continue . Stefanie this is not the right way. Very american, the german system is very different. Also in germany, a lot of cases are brought up, but the rate of perpetrators who are actually facing penalties is very small, because all of these crimes are very often very private and there are no witnesses. Is very hard to prove that the crime occurred. Change think you can this problem with the legal ,ystem, because of this idea the good idea that we have to prove someone is guilty but what we need is a different. Ulture we need to talk about prevention. This is what is missing. Melinda that, of course, is the reason behind the metoo movement. There are strong statements from the originators of this saying, we hope more women telling their stories will begin to change things. Alan posener, when you have encountered sexism or harassment, have you spoken out in some way . There was the whole discussion about Donald Trumps locker room chalk talk. If you heard really egregious talk, have you said anything about it . Alan i would probably say no. Trump ishink donald quite right when he says men talk like that of monks amongst themselves. Even in the softy, leftist kind of men groups, there is that kind of talk going on. I dont say anything. Of course, it spills over into the way you treat women. You cannot compartmentalize it. It is there. It is true. Thats why i think it is so disgraceful you should defend it, quite frankly. We should be much more selfcritical, and we actually need help from women to come out as men and say, to not say women are just as bad or they bring it upon themselves with their bodies, which is just stupid no, its the truth, you cant ignore it alan women are in a structural situation where they have a choice between remaining poor, without a job, in a menial job, or possibly advancing themselves i demeaning themselves at the same time. You have accuse women, to change the system. People like yourself, you are simply going on the surface. Of course there are women who prostituted themselves. Does that make prostitutioion good . No. Birgit myself, i dont want to defend this behavior, but i just realized that it exists, and there are women who tell me it is my riright to d do this, and actually do femiminist movement has worked for this, that a woman can do this without being for this. Re a slulut we have to realize in this discussion that there are women showing behavior we dont like or we dont understand, but they do it, and it is their right. You cant tell me it is a disgrace for women. Ask those women if they disgrace themselves. If they think for themselves you can stefanie this is what is missing in society, the principle that something is a violent whening is it is not consensual. This is something we need to learn in sexuality. We need different sexual education so that we all know what we are talking about. Melinda let me take us to the future very briefly, because we are almost out of time. Do you think this Massive Public outcry, more women talking, will change things . I know you have said in some of your writings you think it is a wave of hysteria and you think that the metoo is too little. Birgit i think in another two years we will have the same discussion. Stefanie i disagree. I think one hashtag will not change anything, but what i have noticed about my magazine since 2008, the discussion has changed. It is a very different discussion then the discussion hashtag in another 2013. I think we are going to little deeper. I think more men are into the discussion. Before, i was all the time explaining the difference between a compliment, and now we are talking about structural sexism. Melinda and we have seen a rash of firings from food, fashion, finance, yesterday fidelity let two people go. Uber let the head go. Is that a sign people and things are changing . Alan its a reaction. It is good. You need more than firing. It is not only in political parties, in parliament, you need in the executive branches of media like the ones we are in. It is not going to work unless women are at least equally represented. Melinda thank you very much for all of you to being with us today, and thank you to all of you for tuning in. See you soon. Anchor this week on global 3000, we learn how precious gems play a far from dazzling role in the lives of locals. In afghanistan, how Emerald Mining supports the taliban. In myanmar, there are rich supplies of jade. But what are the risks for those mining it . Also, in tunisia we ask entrepreneurs why its worth why they are choosing to invest in environmental technologies. But first, myanmar is a multiethnic nation with eight large ethnic groups and numerous