Transcripts For LINKTV Democracy Now 20240622

Bodies. How afraid we are for our children. How afraid we are for our loved ones on a daily basis. Amy between the world and me. Thats the title of the explosive new book i Tanehisi Coates written to his teenage son. It is released after nine churchgoers are killed in South Carolina and the horrifying death of sandra bland, a 28yearold africanamerican woman in texas who was pulled over for not signaling a lane change. In video of her arrest and officer commands are to get out of her car or he would light her up. He welcomed the nations marking the First Anniversary of the Police Killings of eric garner in Michael Brown and Michael Brown. After baltimore erupted in protest over the death of freddie gray in police custody. Even for those of us who escaped those neighborhoods, even those who are able to live in better places, the threat never quite leaves us. Once we are no longer afraid of the neighborhood, it turns out we actually have to have some fear of the very people we pay taxes to to protect us. Amy Tanehisi Coates for the hour. All that and more, coming up. Welcome to democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. At least 22 iraqi soldiers and allied fighters have reportedly been killed in a double suicide car attack by the selfproclaimed Islamic State in east fallujah. Al jazeera reports todays attack was carried out with a confiscated Iraqi Army Humvee and an armored military vehicle. The attack comes just days after a wreck accepted iraq accepted the longdelayed delivery of four of the 36 f16s it ordered from the united states. The delivery had been stalled over concerns they could hand up in the hands of isil. The planes are made by military contractor Lockheed Martin which announced monday it was acquiring sikorsky aircraft, the company that makes black hawk helicopters, for 9 billion. The pentagon says a u. S. Airstrike in syria has killed a top figure in the khorasan group, an offshoot of alqaeda. Muhsin alfadhli was killed two weeks ago on july 8, but the pentagon did not announce his death until tuesday. Pentagon spokesperson captain jeff davis said alfadhli was among the few trusted alqaida leaders that knew of the 9 11 attacks in advance. In news from africa, officials have begun counting votes in this weeks contested election. Being, president Pierre Nkurunziza is seeking a third term which opposition parties say is a violation of the countrys constitution. More than 100 people have died in protest against the president s bid for a third term including one opposition official was found dead yesterday in the capital. John kirby dismissed the elections credibility. There is no international observers, routine intimidation of voters, there has been sustained effort to silence freedom of speech by media and opposition members. So this is in no way shape or form can this be considered a free, fair, or credible election. Amy in news from south america bolivian miners are continuing strikes and protests to demand that president evo morales fulfill his promise to build hospitals, roads and an International Airport in the southern mining region of potosi. President e evo morales, do not let us suffer. We are hungry. This is not the fault of the civic committees who ive reunited here you have reunited here. The only person to blame here is president evo morales. Why is he afraid to have a dialogue . He doesnt have the capacity to have a dialogue. Amy meanwhile, in chile contract workers for one of the Worlds Largest Copper Mining Companies Went on strike tuesday. The strike spread to five mines owned by the stateowned company codelco as workers blockaded the roads and work sites. The contract workers demands include the right to collective bargaining. In other news from chile, a judge has ordered the arrest of two former Army Officers and five former noncommissioned officers over the 1986 killing of u. S. Student rodrigo rojas. Rojas was just 19 years old when he was doused with gasoline and set on fire during a protest in santiago under the u. S. Backed dictatorship of augusto pinochet. Another woman, Carmen Gloria quintana, was severely disfigured in the attack, but survived. In news from the West Bank Palestinian residents and International Supporters have launched an ongoing, 24hoursaday protest to protect the village of susiya from demolition by israeli bulldozers. On tuesday, european Foreign Ministers called on israel to halt the planned demolition. Last week, u. S. State Department Spokesperson john kirby also expressed concern, saying the demolition would be harmful and provocative. The standoff is the latest in a decadeslong fight by susiya residents, who have been facing forced displacement since the 1980s. In may, an Israeli Court rejected the villages injunction to stop demolition, clearing the way for the bulldozers. The bulldozers are expected to arrive any day. Residents have vowed to resist. We are steadfast. We will resist until death. It is impossible to make asleep even if they demolish it a thousand times, we will resist. It is impossible to make asleep. Even if they demolish it a thousand times, we will resist. How many times have they made us refugees . How many times . They throw us out the settlement now, and also they want to send us to where . Amy in haiti, hundreds of people protested in portauprince on tuesday, calling on the dominican government to halt the threatened deportations of hundreds of thousands of haitians living in the Dominican Republic. Some also called for a boycott of dominican goods. We urge the government of the Dominican Republic to respect the rights of haitians and indignity. Also, we ask that they start to support our local products. Amy in switzerland fifa , director sepp blatter was showered in fake money at the beginning of a press conference about reforms to address the Corruption Scandal that has thrown the world soccer governing body into turmoil. British comedian and prankster lee nelson approached the stage before the News Conference and attempted to hand blatter a stack of fake cash, telling blatter, sepp, this is for north korea in 2026. After security guards intervened, he threw the cash into the air, showering blatter with the bills. Meanwhile, fifa official jeffery webb, who was extradited to the u. S. From switzerland last week, has plead not guilty to 17 felony charges and has been released on 10 million bail. Here in new york, more than 1000 contract airport workers at jfk and la guardia airports are going on strike wednesday. The workers are protesting harassment and intimidation they say they have faced while organizing for a 15anhour wage hike. The strike will include baggage handlers, wheelchair attendants , and security officers. It will be the largest strike of contract airport workers since the 15anhour Campaign Began three years ago. The great novelist e. L. Doctorow has died at the age of 84. Known for his novels ragtime, billy bathgate, and the march, about general william shermans march into atlanta, doctorow was a leading voice in contemporary literature. He died tuesday in manhattan after a battle with lung cancer. The renowned actor, musician composer, and activist Theodore Bikel has died at the age of 91. Bikel was known for creating the role of baron von trapp in, the sound of music, on broadway and for the role of tevye in fiddler on the roof, which he played more than 2000 times. He was a folk singer who cofounded the newport folk festival with pete seeger, and also an outspoken critic of israeli policy, including plans to forcibly relocate 40,000 bedouin arabs from their ancestral lands. Which he denounced on democracy now one thing that is absolutely clear in my mind is that human beings cannot be treated like cattle. Human beings must be given the dignity and the respect that all human beings deserve, especially by a people who themselves choose jews, have experienced such deprivation in the past. When i say the very people who were told to get out in the fictional village of fiddler on the roof, the descendents of those very people are now telling others, strangers in their midst, that they must get out of their homes, seems fundamentally wrong. And a wrong cannot be allowed to stand. Amy he died tuesday and at the age of 91. In news from wyoming, the Northern Arapaho tribe is calling for federal hate crime charges after a city parks worker admitted he shot two tribal members at a detox center saturday. Police say roy clyde, killed Stallone Trosper and seriously wounded james sonny goggles, as they were lying in bed. He told the police was targeting homeless people. In ohio, a university of Cincinnati Police officer fatally shot an africanamerican man after pulling him over for a missing license plate. University police say officer ray tensing shot Samuel Dubose in the head sunday following a struggle, after dubose refused to produce a drivers license. Meanwhile, the family of a man who died after being hogtied by police in southaven, mississippi say they were threatened with arrest after asking to visit him in the hospital before he died. Police say troy goode was arrested saturday for acting strange after attending a concert with his wife and taking lsd. Attorneys say he told police he was having trouble breathing after they put him facedown on a stretcher with his arms and legs bound. He died about two hours later in the hospital. In texas, newly released dashcam footage shows the arrest of sandra bland, a 28yearold African American woman who was found dead in a jail cell in waller county, texas, last week after a traffic stop over a driving violation. County authorities have said her death was a suicide, a claim that her friends and family have disputed. In the arrest video, texas state trooper Brian Encinia approaches the drivers side of blands car and asks her why she appears to be irritated. You ok . Im waiting on you. This is your job. You seem very irritated. I really am. I was trying to get out of the way. You are speeding up so i move over, and you stop me. So i am a little irritated. At that doesnt stop you from giving me a ticket. Are you done . You asked me what is wrong and i told you. So now i am done yeah. Ok. Do you mind putting out your cigarette, please . Im in my car. Why do i have to put up my cigarette . You can step out now. I dont have to step out of my car. Amy in the video, officer encinia then appears to pull out a taser and threatens to light her up. I am going to drag you out of here. Your threatening to drag me out of my own car . Get out of your car i will light you up amy in a later section of the video, which previously came to light after it was filmed by a bystander, bland accuses the officer of slamming her head into the ground and says, i cant even hear. She also tells the trooper she has epilepsy and he replies, good. Some have claimed the footage released by authorities appears to have been edited. Three days after her arrest, sandra bland was found dead in her jail cell. The trooper has been placed on administrative duties for the do duration of the investigation into Sandra Blands death, which the District Attorneys Office is treating like a murder investigation. On tuesday, texas state senator royce west told reporters that the newly released dash cam footage shows that bland should never have been arrested in the first place. Meanwhile, at Sandra Blands Memorial Service tuesday, her mother, geneva reedveal, spoke about the death of her daughter. That was my baby. She wasnt my convict. She wasnt a suspect. She was my baby. And it would behoove the all yall to think about what you would do in that place. So some of the stuff that is in the news is true. Some of the stuff that is in the news is not. But the real issue here is something occurred that is going to change the world. Amy centerlines mother Sandra Blands mother. The funeral is saturday in chicago. And those are some of the headlines. This is democracy now democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman and juan gonzalez. Juan welcome to all our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. Amy you wrote your column today in the New York Daily News about uber. Juan the huge fastgrowing Ridesharing Service that is spreading around the world that wherever he goes around the world in city after city, is sparking huge protests and conflicts. In france, there were riots by cabdrivers, by veteran cabdrivers. Against uber. In the french governor government has to cleared it illegal. In california last month, the state of california declared uber ridesharing drivers are actually employees of the company, not independent contractors. The Company Continues to claim that. There is going to be a huge vote in new york this week over trying to put the brakes on the spread of uber in new york city. Uber is growing at a phenomenal rate. Amy why has the protest been so large . Juan basically, uber is essentially undermining the entire urban taxicab industry by creating a model a parttime drivers that is undermining the existing professional fulltime drivers and driving wages down so critics say all over the world. Here in new york city, it is now bigger than the entire you look at industry of new york and adding 500 drivers of week two its operation. So the city council is basically going to vote on whether it should slow down the growth of uber while they investigate the impact on traffic and congestion in new york city. The company is mounted a Huge Campaign hired david cluff former obama adviser hired key advisors to former mayor bloomberg. It is way to a multimillion Dollar Ad Campaign against the mayor and city council. So it is basically doing everything it can to get the council not to vote to slow down its growth. The taxi industrys everywhere are regulated and the government has some ability or right to try to figure out what is in the public interest. So we will see what happens because this is a fight being waged around the world. Amy we will continue to cover that story. Juan heres what i would like for you to know in america. It is traditional to destroy the black body. Its heritage. Those are the words of Tanehisi Coates, author of an explosive new book about White Supremacy and being black in america. Titled, between the world and me, it is written as a letter to his 15yearold son, samori and has been compared to the talk parents have with their children to prepare them for facing Police Harassment and brutality. The book is a combination of memoir, history and analysis. Its release comes as the nation marks the oneyear anniversary of the deaths of eric garner in Staten Island and Michael Brown in ferguson at the hands of police, and not long after baltimore erupted in protest over the death of freddie gray in police custody. Amy today we spend the hour with Tanehisi Coates. He grew up in baltimore. In between the world and me come he writes to be black in baltimore of my youth was to be naked before the elements of the world, before all the guns, fists, knives, crack, rape and disease. The nakedness is not an error, nor pathology. The nakedness is the correct and intended result of policy, the predictable upshot of people forced for centuries to live under fear. Tanehisi coates is a National Correspondent at the atlantic, where he writes about culture, politics, and social issues. He received the george polk award for his atlantic cover story, the case for reparations, which he joined us to discuss last may. His book between the world and me, is called required reading by Toni Morrison. Who writes ive been wondering who might fill the intellectual void that plagued me after James Baldwin died. Clearly it is Tanehisi Coates. Tanehisi coates, welcome to democracy now congratulations on your book, between the world and me. You write it as a letter to your son, samori. Tell us why. I hate to disappoint you guys, but mostly as a literary technique to i began it after i finished the draft of the case of reparations and i was somewhat frustrated with that piece because it is very, very empirical piece, very, very much based in the tools of journalism , very, very evidentbased. I thought at the same time, it made what it meant to live under system that made reparations be central in the first place, abstract distancing effect, talking about people as numbers. About talking about people across history. What i wanted to do with this book is to give the reader some sense of what it meant to live under a system of plunder as an individual to express that. To take it out of the realm of numbers and to take it directly into individual people and how does it feel every day in your life to live under such a system . How do you cope with that . How is it warping . What effects does it ultimately have on you . How do you as much as possible make your peace with it . Juan you write also that the impact of the ferguson decision the grand jurys decision not to indict had on your son and not the distance a created, but your feeling that you could not really explained to him what had happened. I think a lot of situations like this, there is an immediate urge when our children have a reaction to something, that has a racist component to it, to assure them somehow that everything will be ok. That there is some sort of justice that will win out in the end. My study, my very elementary, pedestrian study of history did not demonstrate that to be true. My own life does not necessarily demonstrate that to be true. My belief is it is in the chaos of the world and that you have to find your keys within the chaos and you still have to find some sort of mission. In the book, it is the dedication to principle of struggle, within the chaos with no assurance you will see any sort of victory within your lifetime. Amy that is a statement of fact. Both sitting here watching the center bland video, which i have i was sitting here watching the sandra bland video, which i have been avoiding. Sometimes it becomes a little too much. When youre in a situation where she was stopped for not signaling, i believe it is, when the powers that be, when the person who is armed with the ability on behalf of the state to dispense lethal violence decides to threaten someone without lethal violence, based on a turn signal, that is a statement on where we are. That is a statement on heritage on a whole set of beliefs that undergird that. Very, very disturbing. And forcefully, those police go back to the founding unfortunately, those police go back to the founding of the country. Amy Toni Morrison said, this is required reading and compares you to James Baldwin. The significance of this . You said hers was the only blurb you wanted. Publishers load you down with blurbs, 10 different people, and they managed to do that with Toni Morrison anyway, on both sides. I guess the significance of that quote for me is, Toni Morrison is someone who has been such a figure in our Community Within black literature for so long. Greatest in mecca living writer. Greatest and you can living writer. Im somewhat partial to that. Toni morrison, when you think about it, it represents for black people to was no one else. I wrote this to be very much within the tradition of africanamerican literature with quotes from Sonia Sanchez and Richard Wright and James Baldwin. That is how i situated the work. I am very, very appreciative just very, very honored. Amy we will continue this conversation after the break. Toni morrison writes we will be back with Tanehisi Coates in a minute. [music break] amy this is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman with juan gonzalez. Our guest for the hour is Tanehisi Coates, the National Correspondent at the atlantic. His new book is called, between the world and me. Juan i want to ask you in the book you talk about the influences on your life specifically when he first began reading malcolm x and the enormous influence he had on your life and also the fact that your father was a member and a member and the leader of the black panther party. And the influence that those movements of malcolm and the panthers had on your conscienceless in your upbringing. Consciousness in your upbringing. Trucks these are my first sources of skepticism. That we should be skeptical with the narratives that one is presented with. That is the first place i learned it. One of the things is, i am in some ways outside of the africanamerican tradition. Just as a young man and as a boy growing up in navigating the world, the ways in which the previous generation struggled resented presented to me did not particularly make sense. Seemed a very little applicability. Violence was essential to ones life. It was all around us. How i viewed the world at that time. What was presented as my political heritage and instead i very much gravitated to my dad s political activism of the black panther party. And really to malcolm x i would argue this work had a very pragmatic tactile view of american of history. I remember him saying he is critiquing nonviolence. He says, dont give up your life, preserve your life, it is the best thing he had going. If you have to give it up, make sure it is even stephen. For me, it was a profound claim about the value of your body. Preserve your body. And that to me was just so beautiful and so real. It was not esoteric, and make perfect sense. One come you say he was the most honest leader. The first honest leader i knew. In a bit of hyperbole, he was the first person i heard and it matched what i saw when i walked outside. It matched what i saw when it opened up my history books about the country. When he says, when malcolm says, violence is wrong in america that is such essential critique that should be levied as far as im concerned, before any president that stands up for marley cooking day. Violence is wrong or does not that stands up on Martin Luther king day. Violence is wrong or it is not. Amy used talk about the fear, living in fear. To tie this into the previous question, life in baltimore was is, and will be for some time, quite violent. I can remember the talk about in the book, being a young man coming out of my element three School Single shouldve been an afterschool one of these boys close out a gun. Being very present at say the 11 years old, children were Walking Around the ability to in the lives of other children. Going into middle school. Having an entire ritual totally devoted to making sure i was safe, concerns about what i was wearing, concerns about who i was walking to school with. Concerns about how many people i was walking to school with. Concerns during lunchtime about where i was sitting where i was spending my time. At the same time, dimly aware somewhere in the world the majority of americans did not have to carry that fear with them. And eventually, understanding how that was connected to politics. Amy wanted to go to Marshall Eddie conway, the former black panther leader in baltimore, maryland was released from prison last year after serving 44 years for a murder he denies committing. For years his supporters campaigned for him to be pardoned. Democracy now interviewed eddie conway less than 24 hours after his release. I asked him about writing a memoir called marshall law the , life times of a baltimore black panther. I think at some point i realized i was getting older and i realized i had a lot of experiences and a lot of history of things that had happened and they had not been recorded. I think i think it would have been lost to history and they would have been lessons that have been learned through organizing in prisons that other people could have used. So i think at some point, i sat down and i started writing and i tried to capture what it was that we had tried to do during those turbulent years that George Jackson was organizing in california and attica occurred in new york. Amy that was eddie conway, less than 24 hours after his release from prison or he served 44 years. Can you, Tanehisi Coates, talk about 80 conways presence in your life, even behind bars eddie conways presence in your life, even behind bars . It is emotional for me. When people hear the term political prisoner it becomes a kind of abstraction. Folks are aware of injustice and folks who are in prison, largely because of their activism. 80 conway is central to my first memories. My parents used to take me the Baltimore City penitentiary to see eddie conway. From the time i mightve been one or two years old, literally, my first memories are of black men in jail. Specifically, of eddie conway. That was a huge, huge influence on me. You talk about this notion of just going back to your question of violence. Knowing i had this conversation with my dad recently. I asked him, why did you take me into a prison . Why would you take a three year old or fouryearold child into a prison . My memories are mostly of being bored and sing the gates, the kinds of things children would remember. He said, i wanted to show you the face of the enemy. I wanted to show you what you are up against. In many ways, everything i have done as a journalist up until and including this book, really begins right back there. It is very difficult for me to imagine myself here right now without those experiences. Let me just say how happy i am that he got out. At some point in my mind, i probably began to conceive the world in which he would die in prison and im happy he didnt. Juan a want to ask about another part of the book. The whole book is impressive, but to me, one of the most impressive aspects of it was your description of life at Howard University and your description of the importance of Howard University and the entire intellectual life of African American people in the united states. Could you elaborate on that . What howard meant to you . You say you did not spend much time in class, he spent it on the library devouring all kinds of works, but if you could sort of give us a sense of those were listening and watching of what the howard experience meant to you . Is a statement in the book of living under a system of plunder and surviving and i you deal with that and how you struggle against it. Within that are beautiful things that black people have forged. Even under really careless conditions, to me, Howard University is one of the most loveliest for me personally. To try to explain howard is one of several the struggling black colleges and universities i think im a rather unique in terms of its size and its scope. It is a beacon point, a mecca, as it calls itself, and in the book enough for the entire to come to Howard University at the age of 17 as i did and to see black people from montreal to see black people from paris, to see black people from ghana to see black people from south africa, to see black people from mississippi, to see black people from oakland, as he biracial black people, black people with parents from india, to see black people with jewish parents wings i had not encountered things i had not encountered and was baltimore stop, it was tremendous. But it showed me is even within what seems like a narrow band, which is to say black life, is quite cosmopolitan. In fact, a beautiful, beautiful rainbow. To see all of these people of all these different persuasions and to have that heritage. 20 morrison went to howard. Lucille clifton went to howard. I was aware of that. Charles drew and Thurgood Marshall went to howard. It is one of those things that i cant really separate from my career as a writer. Amy talk, Tanehisi Coates about prince jones. One of the people i met whose life was very, very different from mine, whose background was very, very different from mine was my friend prince jones. He was a child he was born the child of sharecroppers. Deep, deep poverty. Through her own efforts she raised herself up, became a doctor, went to lsu, served in the navy and became a radiologist. A chelated some amount of wealth. Raised two beautiful children. One daughter went to upenn. Her son had the ability to go to any ivy league school, tremendously intelligent, chose Howard University. Was attracted to this heritage and legacy. Went there and one evening, at this point prince was engaged to be married and had a young daughter, one evening a Police Officer who was dressed as an undercover officer dressed he wasnt he was dressed as a criminal. He was in pursuit of some other suspected criminal, somehow confused the two followed my friends prince georges jeep to the suburbs to washington d. C. , out into the suburbs again into virginia he shot him. S, prince tried to ram his jeep. But see, again, it is the people who are empowered by the state to kill who bear the responsibility ultimately. I have oftentimes try to imagine myself in princes shoes, finding out someone is following me who is literally dressed to be a criminal, you know, at 2 00 in the morning across three different jurisdictions. How would i respond . Prince was shot near yards from his beyonces home. Nothing was done. The officer was never prosecuted. The officer was put back on the streets to continue applying his trade. I had to sit with that for 15 years. That was one of the events to say nothing of what his mother is sitting with but that was another big element in writing this book. Amy were going to take a break and then i would like to ask you to read from your book. You have a very powerful section on prince and his mom mabel. Were spending the hour with Tanehisi Coates a National Correspondent at the atlantic. His book is called, between the world and me. Stay with us. [music break] amy this is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman with juan gonzalez. We are spending the hour with Tanehisi Coates who is an awardwinning National Correspondent for the atlantic magazine. His new book is called, between the world and me. Tanehisi coates, if you would read a section of this book. Sure. This is towards the end of major view with mabel jones and she is trying to describe the impact of princes death on her life and how she sees the world. Prince had a sister, so i asked her about this issue and here. I know wondered about her daughter lived in reselling married. There was a picture on display of the daughter and her new husband. Dr. Jones was intensely worried about her daughter bringing a son into america because she could not save him. She could not secure his body from the Ritual Violence that claimed her son. She compared america to rome. She said she thought the glory days of this country had long past and even those glory days were selling. They then built in the bodies of others. And we cant give the message she said, we dont understand that we are embracing our deaths. I asked dr. Jones of her mother was still alive. She told her mother had passed away in 20,002 at 89. I asked dr. Jones how her mother had taken princes death. Her voice retreated into an almost whisper and dr. Jones said i dont know that she did. She alluded to 12 years a slave. There he was, she said speaking solemn northrup. He was living like a human being and one racist act took him back. The same is true of me. I spent years developing a career acquiring assets engaging responsibilities. In one racist act, is all it takes. In the code that is Tanehisi Coates reading from his book between the world and me. Juan i want to ask you, you say in the book when youre delving through all the scores of volumes at Howard University that you discovered that knowledge is not accumulated through consensus and adding by one scholar to another for the trove of knowledge, but that it is constant conflict. Different analyses and perspectives on the same issue. I want to ask you about that. Some of the criticisms that have been raised by another great intellectual, cornel west. Who wrote in defense of James Baldwin, Toni Morrison is wrong about Tanehisi Coates. Rights im wondering, that spawned in itself an attack another attack on pharrell west cornel west in defense of you. Your book has now become part of the ongoing debate between africanamerican intellectuals in this country. Your response to cornell west . I was really sorry to see that. One of my memories at Howard University is seeing cornell west. It was deeply, deeply inspirational. I dont think cornell west knows who i am. I dont think i am all that and he doesnt know, a literally think i think you saw this James Baldwin quote from Toni Morrison and he went and wrote a couple of Facebook Post. People can read my book and read his Facebook Post and decide which has more merit. People can read cornell wests claim that i avoid any critique of the president or they can and they can go to the atlantic and see what i have actually written about the president and they can decide which is true. I have great ban ration for cornell west. I think he has made a witty contribution to black literature as a black i hope he continues to do that. Amy you actually met with president obama twice. Can you talk about these meetings, how you prepared for them, what you said . It is interesting you ask that question. I learned quite a bit of a speech from the morehouse speech, which im not a fan of. I levied quite a bit of speech from the morehouse speech, which im not a fan of. The president has a tendency when it is convenient for them to emphasize is the president of all america and the when it comes to issues of morality to deliver a message that the president of all america has no right to deliver. The president of all america the bearer of the heritage of america and the bearer of policy of america which for the vast, vast majority of its history has been a policy of plunder toward black people, has no right to that is my position. I understand an africanamerican men wanting to have a conversation with young people. But as the president of america, as far as im concerned, you give up that right. There cannot be direct policy toward black people. In the should be no direct cynicism for black people, either. Having said that, i wrote the bees and within a day i got the call to come to the white house. I was not sure why. They did not say what it was about. I was there with a bunch of other reporters. I asked him a question that was semirelated and he sort of answered in the immediately launched into my. I left the meeting quite disappointed. I was disappointed in myself. I felt i had not been particularly challenging. I have to to you you sit in the room, it is the president of the united states. It is the guy with the launch codes. He is an extremely intelligent person. I watched him joust and answer all these questions. It takes some amount of courage. Those are the facts. The second time i was probably a little more challenging. Amy what did your wife tell you on your way to your second trip . A wife said, what would James Baldwin do . She was recounting the encounter he had with john f. Kennedy. That is what she was thinking about, not she was recounting how James Baldwin had gave kennedy hell. She said, what would he do . I write this meeting come all the other generalists were ensued. I was not in a suit. I was in jeans. I had been rained on. Even in that meeting, i was deeply concerned about the liberal and progressive notion that one should pursue policy based on class and not really deal with race. I was concerned the aca was playing out Obama Obamacare was playing out, in fact, the worst while some people in Southern States there were swaps of people in Southern States. This goes back to the new deal. I thought it was very important to try to directly challenge as much as possible. Youre not one to be the president. But as much as possible to raise questions. Juan and the reaction in recent weeks of the president finally addressing issues that mass incarceration in a real way in this country . I think it is good. I think it is a good thing. I do bear some amount of something for the president from this perspective some sympathy for the president from this perspective. Barack obama was elected by the american people. In fact, the base is a mess of the is the basis of my criticism. If you are a president , youre allowed to do certain things. At the same time, youre limited in what you can do. You basically serve at their pleasure. I think it is good. I think this is beyond the president. One should not be lured into a false sense of the ease with which one will dismantle the causal state. Our Current Population in our jails and prisons for roughly 10 times what it was in 1970. A sociologist estimates every year enough people are released from our jails and prisons to fill every fast food job in this country, Something Like 10 times over. You have a huge job at a buzz. I think any sort of president ial rhetoric in that direction is good. At this will take a long time. Amy own to ask you about another of the responses to your book, New York Times columnist david brooks. Juan kyler chiller. Amy he wrote in a letter addressed to you there was not in Abraham Lincoln for every jefferson davis. Every president up to Abraham Lincoln was jefferson davis. I mean, that is just factual. Abraham lincoln is singular. Before he was killed, Abraham Lincoln stood up and for the first time from any sitting president , stood for the right for separate, for africanamerican men who is served in the civil war. That is limited suffrage, but was quite radical at the time. It is that John Wilkes Boothe shot and killed abram lincoln. Abraham went and stands out as unique. Abraham lincoln stands out as unique. Jefferson davis did, that holding slavery was a central part is an old bully. Why supremacy is a very popular, entrench and believe in this countrys history and heritage. Those two things are not equivalent. The ku klux klan is not the opposite of the harlem childrens on. The ku klux klan is the most to mystic terrorist organization in this countrys history. The hardware them it is doing good work, there is not enough of it across this country. Theres a National Tourist organization. One is not the answer for the other. Juan i would ask you about the critique of your Education System in america. Very, very strong in your book, the failures of classroom teaching. Basically, you got most of your knowledge, yourself in a library. Could you talk about that . This is personal. And i want to go up and hopefully test the peerless him. I had no idea while while was in school. I think about the french leg which and how in seventh grade i was in french class and essentially what those given was a list of words to memorize each day in this determine how successful you were. I is no notion of how one would actually utilize french. I understood france was some other place on the other side of the world, but he was an abstraction. No one i knew spoke french. French was not useful to me. With no investment, with nothing at stake as far as i could see directly i cut up and acted a full in that class. Lo and behold, here i am, some 25 years later, and you can see the world is quite big. In fact, language is any link which is important and allows you to see more. It allows you to bear witness. Other young son, my only son was very passionate about the french language. At the same age i was completely dispassionate. He has been raised in a world where he can see. Language can take you places. You know speed who speak french. For him it is very tangible. It is not an abstraction for him. It was abstract to me. I could not figure out how they would improve me or do anything for me, so that was a source of frustration for me. Amy you are moving to paris. I am, in three weeks. My son is going to go to school over there. Amy James Baldwin lived in france and died in france. He did. That is coincidental. What i can say you, ive never perceived myself as walking in his footsteps in that aspect. Is probably the biggest influence on me from a literary perspective. But that really comes from my wife who had this long romance with paris from the time she was a child. Amy you met at howard . Yes. She told me i would fall in love. Here we are. Amy i want to go to the issue of race and class and what happened over the weekend in the president ial politics. Members of the black lives Matter Movement staged a protest inside Netroots Nation by can interrupting senator Bernie Sanders and former Maryland Governor Martin Omalley. The activists interrupted omalleys portion of the event and took to the stage. Let me be clear every single day folks are dying. Not being able to take another breath. We are in a state of emergency. We are in a state of emergency. And if you dont feel that emergency, youre not human. Amy after the interruption, governor Martin Omalley responded by saying, black lives matter. White lives matter. All lives matter. He later issued an apology. Senator sanders threatened to leave the stage. Meanwhile if you could respond to both and Martin Omalley is from where youre from, the mayor of baltimore, the governor of maryland. It is hard for me to respond to the protest, because ive been absorbed with trying to keep up with this book. That is the first ive seen. I saw a little bit about on twitter, but i dont have the full knowledge of what the intent of the protest was or what people or try to call bush. I will say that part of protest is making people uncomfortable. Part of protest is being annoying. I am quite familiar with Martin Omalleys record in terms of criminal justice, going back to his question of incarceration. I think even beyond protest, very direct questions and especially the area we find ourselves in, that should be posed to them. Particularly about what happened in terms of parole and probation in maryland during the course of time in which you was governor. He had a very, very active role in that. It is hard for me to respond just because i dont have enough information. Amy lets turn to the manned yet been compared to, James Baldwin. Lets turn to his book dealing with issues of black identity in the state of racial struggle. In this speech, he speaks in 1963 and Oakland California and castlemont high school. I think the other reasons perhaps the most important reason that im throwing suggestions out to you tonight is that in this country, every black man born in this country until this present moment is born into a country which assures him in as many ways as a confined that desk can find that he is not worth the dirt he walks on. Every negro boy and every negro girl born in this country until this present moment undergoes the agony of trying to find in the body politic in the body social, outside himself, herself, some image of himself or herself which is not demeaning. Now many, indeed, have survived at an incalculable cost. And many more have perished and are perishing every day. If you tell a child, and do your best to prove to the child, that he is not worth life, it is entirely possible that sooner or later the child begins to believe it. Amy that is James Baldwin speaking in june 1963, the audio from the pacifica radio archives. In this last minute that we have with you, Tanehisi Coates where have we come in more than half a century . I think there has been some progress. I think it is people like me appear impatient, it is with the fact that were talking about a system that is basically been in place since 1619. Progress is good. But until until we live in a country in which whites from his he has been banished, in a country where one can look at prisons and not see an eight to one ratio, and to we can look at a country and not see black men comprising roughly 8 of the worlds imprisoned population until we can have a situation in which i can turn on the news or come on the show and be able to discuss other things besides sandra bland being threatened to light her up, as he said, over a turn signal, until we have a situation which tamir rice whose outplaying is not effectively committing a lethal crime or crime that threatens his life, until we have a situation where german powells assassinated for being mentally ill is not shot down in the street, until we have a situation which John Crawford who was shopping in walmart is not shot down and executed in a store progress is nice but it is to be noted and struggle continues after that. Amy Tanehisi Coates, thank you so much for being with us. National correspondent for the atlantic, his book is called, between the world and me. That does it for our broadcast. [captioning made possible by democracy now ] ls change us. Certainly the book has probably changed us more than any other tool. For 500 years, its been this incredibly important tool for humanity. Books are the foundation of civilization. You walk into someones house whats the first thing you look at as aa literate human being . You look at their library. This can sound romantic but the feel of a book thethe texture of the paper even its smell. They are the best way of preserving information