And by contributions to your pbs station, from viewers like you. Thank you. Pleased to welcome professor debra rhodie she has been articulating for the search for justice in the country, the latest book is called cheating, ethics and law in every day life. Professor good to have you on the program. Thank you for having me. Let me ask a strange question to start. Has, the notion or the definition of cheating, changed over the last 40 years as you have been doing this work . I dont think the definition has changed but the forms it takes do evolve with time. Technology, of course, has transformed the forms of cheating. You have file sharing, downloading music and lifting stuff off the internet. Whole sites on the internet that enable people to cut and paste their term paper and have somebody else write their papers. That is what has been the major thing. Maybe i could have asked that question before, you answered what i wanted to get at. Which is, theres a culture of cheating in the country, but so many of us who participate in that dont see it as cheating. So, the way we, the way i, the way you define cheating may not be the way that everybody else defines cheating. Well, i think that is true and it has become normalized, and so they call it ethical fading. You lose awareness that you are crossing the lines. Social psychologists tell the story, they call it the boiled frog problem. If you heat up water with a frog in the pot, if if you drop him in and its boiling, he will jump out f you do if you do by degrees, they will boil to death. This is the same with people, they will cross lines, little forms of cheating and it will snowball and they will lose the sense of when they crossed a more serious line. So, that is what gets you things like the wells fargo scandal with 3,000 employees, ultimately, fabricating Bank Accounts and other forms of massive cheating. But, you know, even with file sharing, which, you know, people mostly realize is illegal, almost 90 of young adults think that its sometimes okay. They talk about it as sharing not stealing. So, theres boundary questions that i think technology has opened up. But, there are other forms of cheating that pretty of much everyone recognizes is as a serious offense and we just dont care that much anymore. Over half of taxpayers admit to cheating sometimes on their forms. 80 of High School Students will admit that they have cheated in class. So, the pervasiveness and persistence of it should give us cause, theres a price tag to it. I want to come back to the price tag. I wonder how it is though that we instill more deeply, how we engrain more deeply the sense of right and wrong that we want our children to have when they look at a world and they see half the adults are cheating, cheating on wall street, cheating their way in to the white house. How do you theres a link missing here. Yeah, well, you know, it has to start early. Cheating starts early. And i think sometimes parents compound the problem by not realizing the messages they are sending when they help the kids with the homework, or put undo pressure on students and focus on just the results and not the learning process. Sports is another example. You know, winning is given too much, i think, priority in youth sports. Good sportsmanship is trouted out at the banquets once a year but nobody reinforces it in daily practice. Thats what has to change, because, if people see that celebrities can get away with it. You know, Lance Armstrong walked away with 100 million even after being stripped of titles and said he would do it again. Thats the message we have to counter act, we have to do it with more criminal sanctions and do it with taking cheating more seriously in schools. We need to create reward structures that give people different incentives than they now have in many workplaces. Twice you said to me we just dont care. What is the phrase you used . Ethical fading. I love that term. Ethical fading. Why does it exist . Why do we not care the way she should the way we should . We develop rationalizations, everyone does it. They deserved it. People feel that file sharing is a victimless crime. But in fact, the artists are not getting paid and others are bearing the burden because a High Percentage of people cheat. It doesnt help when you have a president who has this history of cheating in pretty much sphere of life, from his golf games to universities to his taxes, to stiffing contractors. Only a third of americans think his honesty and ethics are acceptable and 63 Million People voted for him anyway. So, i think, its, you know, a classic statement of how little we prioritize honesty and integrity in politics and in organizations, and in recreational life. What is to be done about cheating in academia . I think part of it has to begin with giving consistent messages to students about what is and not okay. Theres fuzziness in some context of what constitutes plajplaj plagerism and a lot of it lies in the institutions that dont really lean on faculty to report it. That look the other way. Its a kind of dont ask, dont tell, unless it gets you know, a serious scandal that is getting popular attention. And i think a lot of professors just, you know, when they do detect it, they dont want to jump through all the hoops that it takes to get the discipline process in motion. So they meet out a form of rough justice that does not impose serious sanctions, we know that 3 of the cheating that goes on is ever detected and punished. So, we need to change the reward structures. You show theres a price to pay for this, a societal price and indeed there is, what is the price . Well, i think, if you aggregate the cheating among the realms that i transcribed its close to a trillion dollars. Half a trillion dollars alone in tax fraud and misstatements and another 250 billion in incid t intellectual property. And it is not just the dollar amount, its the health and safety issues that are posed when organizations fudge the forms like volkswagen or did, or gm. Those are real lives that are at risk. And similarly people lose their life savings in cases like enron, where you know, the company implodes in the aftermath of massive fraudulent conduct and a lot of conduct on the fringes of fraud that people manage to rationalize away. How much tougher should we be on cheat engine oing in our soc . A lot tougher. One thing we know, white collar criminals still rarely get significant sanctions. One study of high level white collar executives who were referred to the doj for prosecution, only 15 of them ended up with jail time. A lot of cheating goes undetected because both people think that they are going to be able to get away with it or if not that the sanctions are not going to be significant enough to make it not worthwhile. And also, organizations with their focus on shortterm profit structures often create reward systems that encourage it. A classic case was way back with sears robuck that set up a system for auto mechanics that paid them by the job not the hours. And had a sort of bonus system. And as a result, guess what they discovered . Every car had a problem. Even David Letterman put it on his top ten joke list, repair jobs needed, greasy ashtray. So, theres a lot of work that needs to be done. And you know, the companies, i think, just have engaged in a kind of cosmetic response to a lot of the cheating behavior. Enron had, for example, an ethics code that someone put up on ebay after bankruptcy that said, never been used. That kind of window dressing sends exactly the wrong message. Companies and it has to start at the top, need to reinforce integrity in their policies and priorities and performance evaluations and they need to do Ethical Climate surveys to find out how much of a problem they have and where they have it and what they should do about it. And you have no solution to getting cheating out of the politics though . Well, so, its a bit out of my wheelhouse. Yeah, you know, i like to voters to pay more attention to issues of character and integrity. And i think we are seeing the consequences of a system in which those are not priorities. Stanford professors new book is cheating, ethics and law in every day life. Up next, j. B. Smoove, stay with us. Please welcome j. B. Smoove to the program. The writer, actor and comedian has doubled down on his most famous character, leon black. He is part of the ninth season of curb your enthusiasm, and he has released a book on leon, legacy of a fool. I got you, okay. Im im a die versiversion, you. I got you. Ah my name is Chappie Johnson and i cannot open this damn pickle jar. Let me take a crack at it. I will have to put you on hold. Give me a shot at it. Guys, i saw from over there. I am small, but you may be surprised. No. Come on. Loosen it. Trust me. Loosen it. Loosen it. Ah try again. I got it. I got it. I am not a thespian and i cannot imagine that i would ever have the nerve to do improv like this. I heard it all the time. Even on the set, larry does not go for cheaters. And we caught a guy, i saw him walk by a guy, he had a notecard and larry leaned over his shoulder and saw it and snatched it and for it up and said, no cheating. No cheating. No cheating on my set. But, it is, you know, a lot of people do not know that it is improv, they know the animal ways, they see us having a good time. They dont know the show, the show is a seven, eight page outline and we make up our own dialog. All the stuff you see as far as dialog, snunless it specific th larry needs to finish a he sew or a segue word, it all your own your own path. How do you go about getting ready for tape day . You cant. Yeah. You cant. See why i dont want to do it . I think you would be surprised that, you know, if you think of human nature and once you figure your character out. Once your character is grounded and you figure out human nature, you it will come to you, just easy as you would Say Something to you who cut you off. Or you were in the line in the store and you let somebody get in front of you and they start a conversation with you. Its the same thing. Now, you think it is more than it is. I mean, you really dont have a net. But, but, theres something to human nature and what your character would say that is fun. Yeah. So, like, when you are doing this though, when do you know im going to reverse the question. I was going to ask when do you know its working. That is easy. When do you know its not working . Oh. How do you know the path we are going down right here its in improv, you have to choose one or the other. One, you can control the conversation or two you can listen, but its not always about giving, you know, a whole lot of dialog. Sometimes you are helping the guy who the bringing you something. You are helping them out and what happened . How is your look . You got kids . Its the little questions that he would answer, or you can choose to be the guy who, likely on, he chooses to give larry. He is a giver. He listens to what larry is sgoing through, takes larry and brings it in his body and gives it back to larry in a crazy way. It works. Its a give and take in improv, one person should not dominate, you should listen. You spend more time, to he in to me, i spend more time listening to larry and getting the details before i give it back to him. I give it to him as crazy as i can think of. Thats the only way i know how to make it work. Its collaborative. Yeah, yeah, people love the interaction between myself and larry. They love, you know, the two guys. Although lairsy a white jewish guy, he needs this guy, leon to make stupid sense. You know . Its what it is. He makes stupid sense of everything. But he knows, that maybe, its not for him, but leon has made that advice work for himself. Yeah. And i think that is what larry loves to hear about, you know. Tell me how you created the character . You know what . Its how i got to this point on curb your enthusiasm and all these amazing blessings. You know, i have always loved improv, and i remember the first time that i ever wanted to do standup, you know, i have always performed kind of in that way, playing around and joking around with my friends and stuff. I took an improv class at the old Improv Comedy Club in new york city. It closed down right after that summer session improv course. You know, i took that tool and put it in my tool box. I wanted to figure out who i wanted to be on stage. So i figured that out and did it through improv, 20 years later im on curb your enthusiasm, so, all of it tends to lend itself with being patient and also, knowing your value and knowing what you can do well and being put in these positions to do something so incredible. Yeah. Now, this show, you know, i always have this thing i will not go too far back. I go in to auditions as my character. Yeah. You know, i always walk in the room as my character. You walk in the door that way . Always. I never walk in the room as j. B. And walk in the room and then, im j. B. Smoove playing the character of leon. And turn the character on. Its a weird term. I like keeping people off balanced. I love to get you off balance and im in control. I love being in control. I feel like if im driving, i can get us there on time. I dont care what time we left the house. Im going to get you there on time. Does your wife agree with that . She drives as fast as i drive. Right, baby . And my wife told me i would be on the show. She told me already. We put it in the universe, we were washing dishes and we were watching curb your enthusiasm. I said i love this show so much. I said he is crazy and my wife said, you are going to be on that show one day. You say the craziest stuff, i can see the both of you in a scene together. You are tall and lanky and larry is lanky. And seems like you guys would be funny together and im telling you, a month, two months later, im on the show. Its crazy. I need to ask your wife what is in my future. I think what it is, you put something in the universe and you dont know how it will come back. You will put it in the universe and circle around. It will had take the time to come back down and the time will be perfect. All you have to do is prepared. We took an improve class, and who knew that i would be on the best improv show in the history of tv. You answered the question that i wanted to ask you, what made the show so enduring that it can come, leave and come back again . Human nature. People love human nature. They love larrys take on things. People say its cringe worthy and that means that some people love to laugh at it and others say, i did that earlier today in the parking lot when had ththat parked two spaces. I will kill that guy. You need both to have a show that is relatable. Yeah. First of all, it has to be relatable to people. Thats what we love and watch about it. People will sit, and say, oh, that happened to me before. Oh, yeah, i know that kind of woman. I know that kind of kid. I know that kind of man. And i think that pulls people in. You get sucked in to it. And i think people have loved the show for all the seasons. You know, but i believe that each stands on its own. And i do believe in, you not only will span your demographics and everyone elses demographics. They brought the black family on in season six not knowing whether my character was supposed to be there for one episode or for a whole season. Not know fing if he will be the in five, six, seven, eight, or now nine seasons. Thats how it happens. We, i dont know how it all works. All all i know how to do is show up and give 200 in to what i do, you know. And all i still believe that you cant take a job. You can take a job. You can take a woman. You can take a friend. You can take anything you want, if you want it that baed and you show your character and what you can bring to the table. People have to at least consider it. You know, even bill will had sasa i will say, i can do it right now. They have to consider you and put you in the conversation. To me, this show, you know, all the things that are part of what curb has been and j. B. Has been, its hard work, being in the right position. Not burning bridges or stepping on toes or making people feel bad about themselves. Working with the program. I say it to people, if i say im going to do it, i will do it 200 . I had a guy show up to a project i was doing and he said that he would do it and he showed up and he didnt do it. I said, man, i hate when people say they going to do it and they show up and dont do it. I got so mad, you know. Like, i stopped production. I said cut off the cameras i dont want to do it on film. But in front of everyone i said, look, you said that you would do it, dont show up and not do it. I was showing up for this person numerous times and gave 200 of my time, got there early and stayed late and everything and you show up to my stuff and you have my stuff . I dont like that. Thats holly roa thats hollywood. It did not change me as far as i wanted to do and how hard i worked. But i make sure what are folks going to get out of the book . They are going to get something fun. Its consistently leon and i think, this character has been so fun to play, because i think earn knows a character likely on. He could be white, black, anything that you want him to be. Everyone knows a Family Member or someone like a guy like this who lives daytoday. Not a bad guy. Just, he is just, he has a certain path, a certain journey he has been on and that journey has defined who he is and who he ended up being. He is not finished with his life but in this moment, he is who he is. Thats the fun thing about the character. And people draw from this guy. I can be anywhere in the world and you know, people will seem to love this character. We were in new orleans with my wife, and we were in new orleans, i was helping her in the car. And you would be surprised the places i hear leonisms, people yell out a leon line out of the blue. I was getting her in the car and i had a drive by, and he said, get her in there, larry he verbally shot me. Like, oh, you got me. I think that, that is what people love about this dude, man. This book is loaded with leon i ims and first, i was going to do a book, a table book. You know, a big old book. Coffee table book. I was going to do photos of leon through history. Leon as a caveman. And leon had in the boot with George Washington going over the delaware. And mona lisa leon. I was going to do him through history. You should do it. And have little sayings, for you to look at it every day before you go outside at a party. And you hand it to people and let people read it and you see people dressed in different states of hit. That could be the next book. The character created by j. B. Smoove. My man. Enjoyed our talk. Yes, indeed. Thanks for watching and as always, keep the faith. For more information on todays show, visit tavis smiley at pbs. Org. Hi, im tavis smiley, join us next time, we will see you then. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Good evening from los angeles. Im tavis smiley. Americas war in africa finally coming out of the shadows after the ambush of u. S. Troops in niger. And tonight an author takes us inside the militarization of the continent under president obama and what is next for president trump. We are glad you joined us. Nick turse on africa in just a moment