And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Please welcome reverend dr. William barber and activist jim wallace. Delighted to have you both here. So weird to find you guys on the schedule at the same time in l. A. So thank you for coming to see us. Ive been anxious to have this conversation, particularly in this moment of uncertainty and fear and angst where i think people are losing hope. A conversation that obviously is rooted in our spirituality, but i think can be a bit more broad than that. When we talk about faith in this country, we tend to talk about it always, jim, from the perspective of those on the right. But for some reason they have been able to corner the market it seems on conversations about faith and freedom. Why is that . The corner of the market, the corner of the bible are jesus. Opening man tes toe, he said the lord is upon me to give good news to the poor. It isnt the gospel of jesus. We had at the anniversary of this august, they went on a clergy march. And it was really good. You know, you think these things are political, these are theological issues. Until we get to the spirituality and the Theological Foundation on what were talking about here, were missing it. Yeah. Is the term the religious left the term that you embrace, the term you find offensive, a term that is only an existence in response to the religious right . What about this term the religious left. Well, i actually do not like it. First of all, the whole right, left parallel comes out of the french revolution, and thats not where we are. I think its a misnomer, i talk about the immoral hijacking of religion versus the moral center. Jim said that 2,000 scriptures that how you deal with the poor, ezekiel 22 where politicians are described as wolfs when they attack the poor. They are required to go to the king. Go to the new testament, luke 4, starts with the poor. And interesting the most evangelical text in the bible is luck 4 18 been the spirit of the lord is upon me to preach good news to the poor. Those who have been made poor by economic exploitations. What we have seen and i hate to tell you, tavis, but california started some of this mess. They say cast a long shadow or a long sun beam. 1935. James who is a preacher here connected with Business Leaders all men, general motors. Chamber cough commerce and the goal was to km together and protect Business People against the new deal. And they came up with this weird form of predestination. If youre good, you go to heaven, bad, hell. Good, middle class and healthy, if youre poor its because of your personal choices. Its a lot of money. Its a lot of money. What about spirituality . It wasnt about christ, it wasnt about the prothetic engagement, it was merely about trying to line up capitalism anden christianity in a perfect hook. And really, it was a form of heresy that happened. And it spread all over and continuingly growing and growing and growing, thats why i dont like the term left and right. Left has a theological and moral conversation because right now were having were in a serious thats prosperity gospel. That many of the advisors say they believe is the heresy. Its not a biblical gospel. Isaiah 6, we talk about, it says woe to you legislators who deny my family of their rights. And jesus said hey, it was me, i was hungry. I was thirsty. I was naked. I was a stranger. It was me. Youre not paying attention. It was me. As youve done it that youve done to me. To hear about jesus in the bible, you go in a whole different direction. Its a politicized movement. So why do we want to be a politicized religious left but, but, but, these practitioners of this gospel arent just whites around donald trump. Negros thats right. Dont get me started. I dont care whether youre black or white, if you participate in a society ducking religion thats only about private religion and that basically scapegoats and has no kworl with the system and injustice, black, brown, white, it is not the gospel. It is not the biblical faith. And what weve seen is this kind of you either have a praise party and prayer and you isolate yourself from the world, or you go in and you lay hands on a president , and ive got a lot of pushback because i said, it is not pibl call faith to go in and pray for any leader, black, white, or other, while they are preying on the most hurt, the people hurting the most. And not saying a thing. Thats one of the reasons why we have engaged in this Poor Peoples Campaign a National Call for moral. We have to have a moral revival in this country. You think about it, we just went through a debate on how to kill people, take health care for people. We had 26 president ial elections, i mean debates, democrat and republicans. Not one hour on systemic racism, not one hour on poverty. Not one hour on ecological devastation, not one hour on the war economy. Not one hour of debate. Thats a moral problem. Thats a moral analogy that weve got change. By the way, if youre looking at the handsome message and youre trying to say where do i know this guy from . He killed it at the democratic get together. Thats maybe you where you saw him. Dr. King of course, you cant talk about a campaign without talking about dr. King exactly. And king was calling for a moral revolution of values. I hope you can disagree with that notion, i am not altogether convinced that americans are in a space to receive, to hear, much less to act upon a push toward a moral revolution of our values. We operate, we operate in a political space, we operate in a social space, in a cultural space, im just not sure that we can operate the way king was calling for in a moral space where we push our values. Am i wrong . This is hurting who was close to kennedy, he was a mentor. He said with jim you cant start a movement, but you can prepare for one. Were preparing for this movement here. I think these are theological and i think a new generation wants their lives and faith to make a difference. Weve been running around the country in different tracks and lots of people are coming to have this conversation. How do you build a bridge to a new america . How do you really go across that demographic . How do you navigate that . I think thats happening in ways, in fact, theres kind of a trump opportunity here. If we go deeper into our faith, deeper into our faith, deeper in the relationship with each other across all of these lines and boundaries and deeper with those most impacted, who are most jeopardized and endangered, undocumented young dreamers pop people and Voter Suppression now from washington, and muscles are being pushed. If we go deeper into all of those relationships, go deeper, i think we could have a movement stronger than anything weve seen far long time. If we go deep per. Well actually what i would say theres a movement afoot. Now for instance, for the last four years ive been in north carolina, we did moral monday. You didnt see cnn put 00,000 people in the streets led by clergy, black and white from the others. A lot of people didnt talk about that. Right now liz, dr. Liz whos a coach here at the campaign, were doing 15 cities, organizing people deep. We have not had under 1,000 people in those meetings under 20,000 people online trump is a symptom of a deeper morality. Do you realize for instance that the people who are because im antihome sexuals, antiproperty rights. The same people against living wages, against health care that are hurting, mostly white people in raw numbers. So what im finding underneath all of this, there is a deep part. One of the reasons i spoke at the Democratic Convention and i refuse to do some kind of like political scheme, because i told him, im not doing that. Two times i said i wasnt going to speak because we need, as i said, we got a heart problem. Weve got a deep moral problem. And on the ground, ive been working in this moral movement for four, five years in north carolina, and im telling you, ive seen people come together in places we would never imagine, and what i do know, jim, is there is this principle in scripture, isaiah was told only 10 of the people are going to listen to you. But that 10 will be the remnant. There has to be a remnant right now. Ones about 58 people. Dr. King said if i could get 3,000 people to do targeted agendabased civil disobedience, we can shift the moral narrative. If we shift the moral narrative, then we can shift the moral politics. For some reason, i hear Michelle Obama in my head saying when they go low, we go high. And hillary started quoting michelle when they go low, we go high. Low won. Right. Low won. Come on, and im not trying to be snarky. My question is how do we appeal to this moral mallty that our Society Faces when people think right now that low wins. Not high. Well, part of the problem is, wooechb democrats, is thats why you have to have a movement thats not bound by partisan. The framing is so wrong. Take this issue apart. So on the one hand, youll get a ryan or a mcconnell, talk about positivity, then they say its basically the fall of the poor, and all we need is throughout. And we get the democrats to document back and say were working for the white middle class. And never even say not just the name, the condition of 10 it million poor and working poor people. Only a movement can force a change in that dynamic. And thats why i said if we went through 26 president ial debates in the democratic primary, the republican primary, and the general election, and neither side neither side had an hour on the poor, neither side talked really about systemic races, may have talked about being against david duke or something, but im talking about systemic disparities, guys, we didnt have an hour on restoring the Voting Rights act thats been gutted 52 years after. More Voting Rights in august 6, 1965, we just saw a movement has to force that conversation. And were not talking about this campaign, i cant say it all on tv right now, just having another rally or another tweet storm, were talking about a season of serious agendadriven, soles of poor folks, civil disobedience in 25 states and the district of columbia. Over a period of time, we have to break through this limited moral narrative. And as you know, wasnt even a majority of black churches who were supporting this. Thats right. It was this critical minority. Critical minorities change majority conversations. And thats what i see happening now. When 81 of white evangelicals voted for donald trump, most of the white catholics did, most of the white main line did, offered a word there with White Christians wasnt christian. It was white. And now a whole new generation saying, in seattle, 1,000 people two nights ago, it was predominantly a white city, but again, they want to change their sense of what two things that are safe right now. The soul of the nation. And the integrity. Those two things are at stake. The sole of the nation and the integrity of faith. So the soul and not just be we dont want to be the religious left, the auxiliary for the democratic party. If i said we might be able to save the sole of the nation, but the integrity of faith is lost. Push back on that. First of all, i would say no its not. Thousands and thousands of other people. When we started in north carolina, people said its not going to work, people cant come together, only 17 of us got arrested by the end of the summer, up 900 people over 1,000, and we won. Over four years. We won in terms of changing that, we want to get Voter Suppression. So it is possible theres a group of a whole lot i tell people i am a theologically pentecostal charismatic. Im klain. All of that Palestinian Jew called jesus, and there are so many people, i was looking at a poll, jim, that said, even when they asked a question after the exit poll, they only allow white people to say theyre evangelical. Now the question is about black evangelicalism or brown or many, many white people, my church is Christian Church disciples of christ. Evangelical church, elected an African American woman that just fully endorsed a Poor Peoples Campaign. I think were in the middle of a third reconstruction not only of our politics, but of a coming out. Its not that we havent been here, but a coming out and a recognition weve got to get back to preaching in the Public Square. Not just in the sanctuary, not just on wednesday nights, but in the Public Square. And theres a heart for that. Jesus said youll know the truth, and the truth will make you free. So, unless we tell the truth about americas original sin, our soles are still here. You know, i was going to say, white christianity, that phrase, its idolatry. White supremacy is a myth, a lie, a construct to ideologieid also an iele to, in the bible, idols separate us from god. So this myth has separated White Christians from god. This is about our faith and our souls. I think people are feeling that and seeing that. And i think theres a time coming now where faith is going to be more important than politics. Its going to be a minority, but its going to change the conversation, but only if we put faith ahead of politics. Faith in public life starting with our faith. I am im processing what you said a moment ago. I gave a speech not long ago, and the speech was whatever happened to the notion of love in the Public Square . Yeah. What happened to love. King put love in the Public Square, and mandela, Bobby Kennedy came around, putting love in the Public Square. Tell me how you would imagine that working these days. And i ask that because people are so cynical nowadays. That if you know youre going to put love in the Public Square, and you going to be pushed back on or laughed at, how do you process that . Crucify, how do you find the courage to do that . Well, thats part of our faith. The first thing is the faith to have faith in the midst of so much despair. It is to make a clear decision, whether or not im going to be a priest of the empire or prophet to the nation. And the movement is going to be priest to the power prophets to the nation. What i have seen, tavis, is that i think about the minority movement. People said to us, even atheists would come and they would say we dont necessarily believe in religious faith, but something about this sounds right. Im here because the constitution morality starts with the establishment of justice. Taking Peoples Health care is not just. Taking the right to a living wage is not just. We, every monday, would gather and people said to me, it turned into Public Square church. Now we started with a few, by the end of the summer, you would have 19, 20,000 people showing up every monday. So one of the things were saying in the Poor Peoples Campaign for a period of time, we need to have some unity that will turn some state capitals and maybe the office of ryan and mcconnell into Public Square. We need to have a seasonal of civil i did obedience i heard something. Where thats conspicuous. All right. With poor people and each week is a targeted agenda. Yeah. Because if we dont break through the narrative, i mean, you think about it right now. You made it, most of the major media has not even talked about the worst attack on our voting system. Which is not rush russians, but Voter Suppression. Thats right. Not the voting sites in the black community, brown community, poor White Community this last time, and voting, i said, these theological, its a deep theological sin to deny you the right to vote, ian god allows you to vote and choose. And since you only give the right to vote to human beings, if you deny somebody the right to vote, you are questioning their humanity. Uhhuh. You are questioning the human. So we have got reframe we talk about we have to reframe from left and rielt versus right and wrong. Yeah. Its not left versus right, but right versus wrong. You think that civil disobedience has the power it once had . I only ask because we talk how to do this, now whenever people want to protest themselves, they take to the streets and im all for that, but theres so much right now. It cant be just one time, it cant be knee jerky, thats why the other part of the Poor Peoples Campaign. We have the poor people and people working on the sole support for artisan america since 1968. Around these issues because you cant just curse the documents. Youve got to also offer light and it cant be a onetime it has to be a season of it. And this is where youre asking, you say, i dont want to be cynical, people are feeling that because of what theyre seeing. Dez monday taught me the difference between optimism and hope. Oh yeah. True thing. Optimism is how we look today and things dont look good and the health care thing all over again, but, hope is not a feeling. Or a mood or a half cup full, its a decision you make. Its a choigs. I learn my theology in south africa when they decided with no evidence. So the text, faith is the substance of things and the evidence of things not seen. Hope is believing in spite of the evidence and then watching the evidence change. And that is done by acting. And thats why im feeling the hope now. Everybody will not do the civil disobedience, but we believe somebody has to do it to break through the narrative. Because right now, the narrative is chasing tweets and emails and i think mr. Trump is not dumb, but very shrewd because he has a lot of generals as advisors, one military tactic is diversion. Its always divert, divert, divert, and we have to have a season, not one email, not one march, not one texting, not one day, but a season, maybe 40 days, im just saying. Yeah. Im just saying. I see you. Ive said many times on this program and the audience heard me say this repeatedly, i think the poverty is threatening our democracy, i think the poverty a matter of national security, and yet the question i ask is, why do you think movety is, can, or will be an issue . Well, i think actually i dont. I think it has to be race and movety. I think it has to be a fusion. But i spent an hour and a half sitting with joseph stickily. And we better deal with this question that he raised as a Nobel Peace Prize economist. The cost of inequality. We hear people say what will cost to change this . What does it cost to keep it the same . What does it cost to keep Voting Rights is up pressed. What does it cost to keep people without a living wage 15 and a union . What does it cost . It will cost this nation its soul, its economic health, and its future. Is what i believe. Because, in fact, its about that. Its about the image of god. Its genesis chapter 1, the original sin wasnt just slavery, it was before. It was christians. White christians, and britain and u. S. , im a christian, they said we cant do to Indigenous People or kidnap unless, if their people we cant do it. Well do racial difference. Racial superiority, thats what the original sin was. And so thats, thats our souls are at stake here. So i think its, its restoring the image of god. Its not just poverty, its what, who is welcomed as the children of god . Our souls are at stake here, and were starting to figure that out. Thank you both for coming on. Reverend wallace and reverend barber, i think just got teed up big announcement. Thats coming some time soon, maybe a 40 day season. Well see. Campaign, well see you get ready, let me know. And where you want me to meet you, i will be there. Yes, sir. Thank you both for coming on. Thats hour show tonight, thanks for watching and as always, keep the faith. For more information on todays show, visit tavis smiley at pbs. Org. Hi im tavis smiley, join me next time as we take a deep dive into whats happeningaround the country. Thats next time, well see you then. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Good evening from los angeles, im tavis smiley, tonight a first can steve cohen, the democratic congressman from tennessee will give us an update on the articles of impeachment he plans to file against President Trump following his comments about charlottesville. Then well speak with actress miss green about her starring role in star trek discovery. Glad you joined us. All of that in just a moment