Welcome back to firing line, dr. Cornel west and dr. Robert george. T nk you. Thank you. And we salute you for your show building on thgreat legacy of this historic firing line show. Well, i am honored,ecause you are both celebrated scholars and public intellectuals who come from remarkably different world views and profess different perspectives. U dr. West, e a professed ounmarxist cialist. And, dr. George,re a leader in the theoconservative movement. Im not sure id say that, but at lst im not a marxist. Im like cornel in that respect. [ laughter ] and were both christians were both christians. Youre both christians. And you respect each other enough to disagree and to engage in a serious and rigorous contest of ideas in a civil and respectful way. You teach a urse at Princeton University and you also have in common that you were both guests on the originar g line with william f. Buckley jr. Mmhmm. Its a very great honor. Very great honor. Well, whats clear is, as you nod when you speak, youre youre leaning in ersa. Another. Theres a clear affection between the two of you. Ab hes so l. And im so glad you guys [ both laugh ] ts true. In fact, actually, i think its deeper than civility and its en deeper than respect. I think weve got a genuine love for one another. Hi i lovebrother. I revel in his humanity. And it seems to me ive heard you say the common nominator is love. Absoluty. There are just so many aspects d facets who we are as human beings that cannot be subsumed under politics. So when you love somebody, you love their qualities, their character, their laughter, their geinures, the things you hav common that dont always fall into pitics. We can argue over aquinas versus kierkegaard or we can argue over his bluegrass versus my funk and rhythm and blues. You see . Theres things that bring us together. H then we relitics and we say, oh, my god. I think youre dead wrong, my brother. I think youre dead wrong, my brother. C so the humnection, that rich, deep Human Connection thats what is so veryan impo the other thing, margaret, that we were talking about was anthe importance of honest integrity and those sorts of virtues. Brother cornel, i admire him and i admire him for those virtues f honesty and for integrity. And he sets an example for me. Hes inspiring to me. We may disagree about politics, but i do admire integrity, a person who ss what he means, means what he says, whdoes not succumb to peergroup pressure. Cornels been under pressure from the progressive side, sometimes, to do things or say things that he actlly doesnt agree with, and he refuses to yield. I try to do that on my end, and i look to him as model for that. And, so, the viewers know you both did that in 2016, where you refused support hillary clinton, even though there was enormous pressure from you on the democratic side to support hillary clinton, and for you, awell, dr. George, to support President Trump and to vote for him and to throw your weight behind him. So both of you have really waed that walk. Dr. George, you have said of dr. West. Can you give me an example of something he gets wrong when hes asking the right question . This sort of thing. As ng about, say, an economic system, not or not exclusively, does it work to is it just . All prosperity . But does it honor the principles that we ought to honor, given that human beings have a profound, inherent, and equal dignity . Now, we reach differentou conclusions that. Cornel leans in the direction of a more socialistic sort of system. Im more in the direction of the freemarket sort of system. But hes only nna give two cheers for socialism, because he sees the downside and the danger, as well. And im only gonna give two cheers im like irving kristol. Two cheers for capitalism, cause i realize its a system that will sell you anything if its not constrained by moral principles that are, tves, reflective of our understanding we should have of the dignity of the human person. Theres certain thin that shouldnt be for sale. So i believe in the market, butt wo cheers. Cornel believes in the socialist system, but just two cheer both of us acknowledge that theres got to be some public regulation of markets. Yeah. Theres got to be fair regulation of markets. Its gonna be a matter of degree. E its gonnamatter of gradation. Its the predatory capitalism in which greed runs amok. Brother robbie is against greed, whether it comes in the form of cooreed, poor peoples greed, working peoples greed, white greed, black greed, brown greed. Isnt that right . Yeah. Like cornel, i want a system that works for the common good, that works for people, and especially those who are at the lower end. Hai think the market syste lifted millions and millions of people o of poverty. So im for the market system. Im very skeptical of p biggovernmegrams. I want to empower the institutions of Civil Society families and churches and voluntary associations. I want them to carry the bulk of the load when it comes toal , education, and welfare, and transmitting to each new virtues that are necessary for people to lead successful lives and to be good, contributing citizens. But i know that a mahats unleashed without regulation, without moral consaints is going to do much more harm than good. So, have either of you moved the other closer to your position in any issue . Nk i theres been some movement. Yeah, i think so. I think when weve taught hayek together, friedrich hayek, and his critique of did it bring you closer to the ad to serfdom . [ laughs ] well, i was against serfdom from the very beginnin and ive become more intensely im glad you mentioned that,as that 1944 c of his, the road to serfdom. I think theres been movement, but a lot of our movement has to do with, also, intellectual, movemeat is to say, reading great texts. It could be A John Stuart mill. U it be a w. E. B. Du bois. It could be a hayek. It could be a leo strauss. Our conversations are oftentimec inteal, and we wrestle but are you saying youve expanded your reading list . Well, no, no. We had read the texts together, but its how we read them. Its how we read them, i tnk. Youve said, both of you, that the unexamined life is nstantly being unseted. Aolutely. And that this ithe challenge in the course you teach to your students. Your challenge to them is to unsettle their ideas so that they examine their assumptions. Where has dr. West unsettled ill tell you w on issues of race. Mm. My inclination prior to our deep engagemenon these racial issues was to suppose that the fundamental prlem is that people are raceconscious. They think of themselves asor whitlack, when race is really something ephemeral, something that, strictly speaking, doesnt even exist. Its a kind of artif culture. Mmhmm. Mmhmm. Wouldt it be better if we just were colorblind completely in all of our alings, didnt think of ourselves as black or that, and we just had aing like Colorblind Society . Very good way of solving thee a what cornel has drome with me is, yes, theres a sense inic we should relegate racial categories to the ash heap of history, and, yet, we have to deal with the facts of history, which incle the emergence of cultures based on race so that caa program in africaname studies is, for example, studying aradition, one that makes sense. Cornel sometimes refers to africanamericans asple. He says, i come from a people that has suffed for 400 years, been treated unjustly, been hated, and, yet, has taught the world so much to love. I now understand in a way that i didnt, i think, previously, the sense in which it makes sense to refer to, lets say, africanamicans as a people. I mean, theres a policy prcription that encompasses many of the problems that youve just outlined, and thats and you have said. Brother geor im sorry. [ both lau ] that dr. West you have said that brother cornel. You have saidhat dr. West has really influenced the way you thought about affirmative action. Lets take a loo cornel asked a set of questions that made me think a lot more deeply about that. Would our camp be not be worse off by virtue of the effective absence of people from the Africanamerican Community . T and when ynk about that question. Yeah. The answer is, of course, we would be worse off. So, how do you handle the policy prescription then . I mean, have y thought about what the next step is . Youve conceded that he really afutcted the way you think a the issue. Have you thought about the policy prescription . I have. And my judgment of it is we certainly dont wantwer standards. So, weve got one set of standards for africanamericanin or lstudents and another set of standards for those who dont ll into those categories. We dont want to do that. I dont think we want to give preferences based on race. That sounds too much to me like the disease as cure. But it does mean that we need to make an effort to make se a serious effort to make sure that minority students feel they are welcome at Princeton University, theres a place for them at Harvard University or ohio state or anywhere else. We need to be reaching out and osoking for the talent in communities that maybe, had history beenifferent, would have been in those institutions, but, because history is as i is, are not in those institutions. That seems to me to be the way to go. Dr. West, were you trying toi change his o or just help him arrive closer toruth as you see it . You know, my dear ster, i me from a tradition of liftingic every i dont want anybody to be an echo. I want people to find their n voice, just like a jazzwoman or a bluesman. And my brothers got hiswn voice. So i want him to find his voice, and hell land where he lands. When i see my brother, i dont have to eliminate his constructed whiteness. Hes a human being in a particular body, but hes de in the image and likeness of god. He has something there that is worthy of a certain kind of treatment, no matter who he is. And the history is there. White privilege is there and White Supremacy is there, alles things. The same is true with gender and so forth, right . But its that Human Connection thats crucial. , d when it comes to affirmative actie question becomes we want to make sure our students connect at a human level. Mmhmm. But we want to make sure its fair, the conditions under which they enter a college is fair and its just. And we know all these institutions of Higher Learning have trations that were deeply racist and sexist and antijewish and antimuslim and ole host of other things. They were anticatholic, in terms of the harvards. Oh, sure. And the yales and so forth. Princeton. Nc and pon, too. Absolutely. Let me ask you about another policy healthcare youve been on the record that healthcare is a human right. Absolutely. Why is healthcare a human right . Because i think that human beings are so precious and priceless that they ought have access to the highest quality of healthcare in their short move from mamas womb to tomb. And that is something that so many other nations already have been able to institutionalize. The United States is very far behind in this regard. Thats a preferce in terms of how the policy should be applied to every individual, buo explaie the right, the humanright part. Do you believe that healthcare is a fundamental humht in the way that freedom of speech and freedom of assembly and freedom to practice your own religion that are enshrined in the First Amendment is healthcare a fundamental right in that way . I think it is. I think healthcare isa fundamentallman right. Just being born warrants a certain kind of treatment that society caprovide, especially for the children, especially for the vulnable, especially for the elderly. But i think it holds acrs the board. Eo dr. E, i know youve been on the record saying you dont believe that healthcare is a fundamental human right. Well, not if by fundamental human right, we mean an obligation that the governmentid prit, no. Theres a looser sense in which im perfectly happy to speak ing the ge of rights when it comes to healthcare. Have profound, inh andan beings equal dignity. And we should work for a system that may have some public elements but may alshave private elements that will make healthcare affordable to as many people as possible. I think there should be a safety net, if necessary, provided by thgovernment. But on the whole, i would much nmther rely on the market. I dont like govt running things unless its absolutely necessary. No one else can run dont want a private military. I want the government running that. Ne but what can be y private initiative, private action, voluntary work i think should be. And i believe in the magic of markets. The good thing about markets, properly regulated, is they push quality up and they push price down. m soot, in principle, arguing for a strictly laissezfaire libertarian system where no government involvement, no government safety net, but i am arguing in favor of a system that will, to the extent possible, take advantage of private initiative, rely on private initiative, precisely becausi think the best way to get healthcare to as many people as possible is to drive qualityd uprices down. And you see now the overlap level, were very r. Moral what youre both saying is theres an obligation of Civil Society to prode somehow, that society ought to provide to the best of its ability, because, morad spiritually, human beings have something precious that needs to be attended to that results in how they behave. But then, at the level of policy, then you say, oh, well, lets see which way is the best way of going about doing this kind othing. And its that kind of discussion that we need more of in the country so that were not ater each o throats but, rather, at the subject matter, trying to deal with theer sug and social misery thats out there. When it comes to positive goods, like healthcare, like education, there are different ways of providing, different mixes of private and public, and reasonable pple of goodwill can disagree about what is best. Well, a subject that you do agree about is free speech and free speech on college campuses. Has it become even more difficult in recent years to speak frly on college causes . Oh, absolutely. Oh, oh, yes. Absolutely. No queson that it has. Cornel kindly praised me for my witness and work on behalf of free speech. Buri want to say its easy me now, as a conservative, because right now, the conservative side, being so often the victims of repression speech, is in a high freespeech mode. Conservatives werent always so jealous and protective of ee speech. When the communists, socialists, anarchists were today, the diff and this is why cornel deserves more praise than i do. Today, the difficulty is on th progressive side. There are lots of progressives who arent so excited about free speech, who want to restrict it, who think there are good reasons to restrict what they call hate speech and so forth. And cornel has stood up in the ce of that and said, no. Free speech is for everybody,ta and its imp and its got to be honored on our University Campuses and in our society more broadly. Dr. West, why that shift, that progressives seem to be in a placwhere theyre shutting down free speech more now than before . Thats a good question. Its hard to say. s really hard. I think its partly generational. There is, in fact, alsa certain kind of orthodoxy that and thats why socratic energy is very important, no matterxt what the cons. You have to have an acknowledgement that not only you could be wrong, but you can learn something from someone who you have deep disagreements with so that any kind of orthodoxy of an adolescent or an underdeveloped form just doesnt want to listen or he from anyone they disagree with. Now, keep in mind, you g a lotes of prove young folk who are very socratic, so i dont want to engage in generalization. But i think that, in it has to do with the generational issue, and the second has to do with the increasing orthodoxy. I want to emphasize, margaret, that when cornel and i defend free speech, both onca us and in society more broadly, were not defending it as a mere abstract right, just a right that falls down from heaven, that exists because it exists. r no. Defending it because its essential to truthseeking and to running a republican utmocracy. You cannot be a seeker if youre in groupthink. You cannot be a truthseeker if youre unwilling to be challenged. Um because of fallibility, we are all wrong about some things. Filled with nothing but trues beliefs. All of us have some false and if were gonna move from falsehood to truth, with respect to any subjectwere gonna need somebody poking and prodding and challenging and engaging us, ane weto be willing to listen. And we certainly cant shut them down. Me the or running a republican democracy, a ours, because werrunning ake great experiment in demoatic order and democratic liberty and selfgovernment, and you just cannot do that if some people get to suppress the speech of other people yeah, i think were living not just in a highly polarized s moment in thiety, but its a gangsterized moment in our what do you mean by that . Gangster what i mean is the eclipse of integri, honesty, decency. A hypocrite hypocrisy is the tribute that vice plays the virtue. So wheyoure a hypocrite, at least you still have standards. Youre just falling short. As a gangstero standards at all. They do anything they want. Its thrasymachus in platos republic. Its the grand inquisitor in dostoevskys the brothers karamazov. No standards, i dwhat i want to do, impunity, lack of accountability. And that is the mostrous thing no democracy can survive. Sounds like youre describing President Trump. Well, i mean, hes one example, but hes t the only gangster around. All of us have some gangster inside of us. So, gangsterism isot just a rightwing thing. It cuts across our human condition. Progressives have enormous cultural power. Og ssives dominate in academia, in journalism, in the profesons. Weve got a problem across the cant point fingerheessives conservatives, and the conservatives cant point fingers at progressives when it comes to this. Everybodys got to stop andst t showing some respect, respect for each other as human beings, and respect for each others rights to disagree. Okay. So, i think i mean,l as r viewers take heart and inspiration from the model thatou demonstrate, how do they also apply it to their own lives, to thn families, and thanksgiving dinner tables right . Where, know, they have a deep love and shared history but often fundamentally disagree, and that can get i the way of the love that youall have discuss that ultimately needs to triumph in order for us to be able to really move forward in this periment of representive democracy . Let me tell you, margaret, what i think the first and most necessary thing is and it begins with each of us and that is recognizing ouown fallibility. We are frail, fallen creatures. Humility . Yeah, intellectuahumility, recognizing that we could be neong about things and som we regard as goofy or misguided or bigoted might actually beos right about things. Its easy to acknowledge that we might be wrong about things that dont matter that much to us. The hard thing but its necessary is to understand a the complexi difficulty of Great Questions and to derstand that i could be wrong about deep, important things. I could be wrong about values i cherish. I could wrong about identityforming beliefs for myself. But the only way im gonna figure out whether im right or wrong is to lien tsomebody who has a different point of view and challenge. Im not gonna learn anything from somebody im shouting at. Im just not. Theres not gonna be any learning in that conversation. I wanto learn from cornel. He has things to teach me. I have things to learn. Even when hes wrong about some thsgs, i want to know what reasons are, because theyre gonna deepen and enrich my understanding, even if hes not actually correct. So if were shouting, if were not listening to each other, theres not goa be any learning. Do you think people are less likely to listen on the issuese and liefs they hold most deeply . Of course. Of course theyre gonna be less likely to. And we do wrap our convictions, wrap our emotions, more or less, tightly around our convictions. Thats just the humaition. And so we then perceive challenges not as intellectual or moral challenges, but as rysaults on us personally, because now our dentities are caught up in what we believe. Of course wwant to be improvisational. Being improvisational doesnt mean you give in. It just means youre starting from certain standing point and then youre seeing whether sitheres wiser, more pers arguments put forward for you to move in place where you stand on something stronger. Thats all. Well, id like to sort of wrap this up by taking you on a trip down memory lane, dr. West, and ask you to reflect on your formerelf from 1993. Lets take a look. Really . Well, no, i think we recognize at princeton that its always been difficult to make the life of the mind attractive in american culture. Were simply trying to acknowledge the fact that there which the attempt ight andn in instruct and inspire and inform ght to be at least made available. Of recognize it will appeal only to a small numbetudents, but to ensure the quality of those students who make that kind of choice. You both teach students harvard, at princeton, at princeton together. How many students are you finding, these days, are interested in the life of the mind . Got a good number. Yeah. Weve got a good number. Its a good slice. But we have to inspire more. Eah. Absolutely. See, theres a lot that youre competing with when youre trying to preach thef gospele examined life, the life of the mind. Thats right. Youre competing with status, power, money, prestige. Absolutely. Re those aust means. They are secondary things. Theyre good because of the good things you can do with them. But they are not what really matters. The things thareally matter are things like faith, family, friendshiplove, compassion, reaching out to other people, exploring the great mysteries of life and of the universe, wh, summarily, we callhe life of cae mind, which we might also, at the same timehe life of the heart. Theyre what really matter. N t there are competing values, and selling kidsat cornel and i think are the rit values got a lot working t you. ve youve got a whole culture working against you. But, mean, i think the point i was trying to make 27 years ago there its m amazing to sso young beauty has always been that of a critical minority, because you had toay a heavy cost. And so its no accident that, often, its the great artis who have been the vanguard of heavy cost. , willing to pay that it could be a coltrane, a beethoven. It could be a Toni Morrison orrg ia woolf. Thats what it is. Thats how were constituted as human beings. M m. Wed rather take the easy way out status, money, wealth,an so forth. And, yet, the real spiritual and moral wealth that really does provide a deep joy, st a superficial pleasure, isat something e provide as a door opening for young folk who want to enter this love of trut beauty, goodness, and then, as christians, even love but thats always ical minority, but thats alright. De in our classes, cornel will often tell our ss that, you may not understand it, you might not even believe it, but that you have come to princeton or harvard or whatever university it is. On the real reou have come is to learn how to die, because if you dont learn hdie, youre not gonna be able to know how to live. We learn howo die in order to learn how to live. And its only in the perspectiv agaie horizon of our own death that we can really get our values straight. Absolutely. I mean, i cant end it any better. Its been one heck of a bromance. [ both laugh ]r thank you deling how to do this. Thank you. And thank you for coming to firing line. Its a great pleasure. 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