Additional funding is provided by. Corporate funding is provided by. Welcome back to firing line, leader abrams. Thank you for having me. E so siu were first on firing line in january of 2019, yodelivered the democratic response to the state of the union. You decided not to run for the United States senate. And you have focus on fair fight, which is your Voting Rights group. Youve ao itten another book, our time is now. To be on the short list to become joe bidens Vice President ial nominee. And were goingal to get tof that. But first, a man from your city, rayshardrooks, is dead after being shot in the back by police. Ap thisned very near your old state house district. And a member of his family said, i thought atlanta was higher than that. I thought we were bigger than that. Did you think atlanta was higher than that and bigger than that . I think the challenge because what has happened in atlanta, what happened in louisville, what happened in minneapolis, what has happened in countless cities across our country is that the systems that are designed to protect us are revealing themselves once again to also be the source of our demise. Atlanta is not immune to that type of systemism. Georgias not immune to it. And unfortunately, the ited states is not immune to it. But we do have an opportunity to solve i and i think thats the conversation that needs to drive every decision thiyear, including how we vote. So, protesters across this country followin ee death of george floyd calling for justice. And i want to know what Stacey Abrams thinks justice is. Ive spent my adult life in active pursuit of not just the right to vote, but what that vote means. And justice is aboutta making c that every person has free and fair access toiz the perks of cship, that there is accountability and there is opportunity. At and unforty, in a country where if you are black, you are more susceptible to dying from covid19, youre more likely to be infected, you more likely to lose your job. Youre more likely to be shoty and killedlice. When we think about what happened to george floyd, brnna taylor, ahmaud arber Rayshard Brooks, what happened to tony mcdade and others is about extrajudicial killgs. Its about whether our justice system, when it comes to criminal activity, whether it works. And right now it does not for too many people, whether its justice in our elections, justice in our economy, stjustice in our criminal e system across the board, our responsibility as americans is to fix these problems so that every american can actually fulfill their full potential. I was so struck in reading this book, your new book, how you were first drawn to activism r in the wake ney kings beating by police in los angeles. Do you find echoes in the current protests with your protesting as a College Shooting for rodney kin absolutely. I actually began my activism long befe that. My parents were very engaged as teenagers in the civil rights mo. So i grew up with a very healthy appreciation for activism and protesting. But the first decision i made on my own without my parents telling me we were gonna go do this was when i protested in thwake of the rodney king decision, and its identical in some of its scope. It was a video of police harming a citizen, beating him. And what was so disturbing, what erupted into those demstrations was the exoneration of those men whose behavior was captured on film and yet explained away. That type of injustice, that dehumanization is whats fueling this passion. What i hope is differe this time is that in 1992, we were in the midst of a president ial mpaign. In 1992, we had protestsns and deations. But in 1993, we did not see change. And my hope is that in 2020, we will elect leaders at every level of government who actually te it as their responsibility to start to fundamentally address d dismantle these systems of suppression. So will that be justice . Will a total change of the Political Leadership in this country be justice . Ut absy not. The reality is were a nation that was built on t very systemic inequitie that were trying to dismantle. And its disingenuous for any person in leadership or not to exhort folks to say, well, if you vote, things change. No, if you vote, things can change. And we have to preface it that way. It can change, but ange is slow and ploddin because these systems have existed for 240plus years. And so were not going to, with a single election, eleca savior who will change our lives and were not going to dismantle a system at has governed our lives. President trump announced anis week that he is banning chokeholds unlesfficers life is at risk, increase the use of force training, and create a federal database ocers with a history of use of excessive force. Now, i know that you are a critic of president trumps, but is this a step in the righ direction to hear this from the rose garden . It is a modest step that accomplishes small parts of what we need. But he holds the most powerful position in our nation, and the timidity of his response is whats so underwhelming. Yes, you can say that youre banning chokeholds unless an officers life is in danger. But what we found with Rayshard Brooks was that theyou t their life was in danger and shot him in e back. And so the notion that your life being in danger is the predicate for using something that we know literally crushes the life out of others is the wrong approach. And unfortunately, i think he is bong to not only political pressure, but to the timidity of his own moral courage. And thats why i can only give him small credit for the database, which is a good thing. But we deserve and demand great things. He also said this. Im gonna show you a c and let you respond. For the last 3 1 2 years, a inistration has been focused on creating opportunity, fighting for equal justice nobody has ever deliveredlts. Results like weve delivered. Nobodys come close. Leader abrams, what is your reaction to that statement . He lies. Look, lets take it piece by piece. He claims that hes done more. This is the same presint who rolled back the Obama Administration initiatives to actually have the Justice Department work with our Police Officers work with Law Enforcement to actually prove their behaviors. He rolled back the Obama Administration initiatives to demilitarize our police. Hes the same person who has time and again used language to incite behavi against africanamericans. So his willingness to twist the truth and only amplify the smallest parts of credibility are deeply disrbing. And how does it make you feel . He says hes done the most for af. Canamericans than anybo its a reaffirmation every day of why i believe he should not be in charge of our country, because its either that he knows hes lyi and intends harm and doesnt understands lying the problem. And either one of those things warrts his removal from offi through an eleion. But whats more important ise thatinks the small crumbs of not killing us, of not harming us, should warrant such accolades. And thats not the measure. The measure is justice. E asure is equity. The measure is opportunity. And he has failed to meetas those es. So when you look back at all of the solutionse that hen proposed, what are the reforms that are mosimportant to you . So i think there are two parts to this conversation and unfortunately, there is this burgeoning debate about reform versus transformation. And i think we have to recognize that they must coexist. The United States has some of the lowest hourly requirements for trainingof for necers in the world. And we need to do more and we need to broadenof the scophat training. Number two, we need to dismantle and eliminate qualifd immunity. When Law Enforcement officers breathe law, they should be held accountable. We need to absolutely deal with issues of chokeholds and descalation. And so theres a litany of things that can be done to reform the behaviors and the practices in Law Enforcement. What about police i believe in unions. I believe that every union and support its people. But i think Police Unions in some places he outsized authority over what happens to the peopleh are supposed to serve. And when those two things come into conflict, the fundamental obligation of every officer is to serve the public, and the publics needs should absolutely take primacy. Alright, so you bring me around the activisse days. And it is defund the police. Anit seems to me that many people have a different definition for defund the police. What is defund the police mean to you . In my mind, its a necessary rallying cry onr those who seek a simple way to call to atten those who can provide change. But ive been Public Policy too long to think anything is that simple. Un but rstand the enthusiasm. A former representative from the state house in south calina, bakari sellers, was on the program last week. And he said to me, you know, defund the police is a rallying cry that just tells me that democrats suck at messaging. I mean, the criticis from some parts is that if you dont really mean defundn the place, use the words defund the police. It risks undermining the effort. Do you agree . Well, i think we put too much we give too much power to the medias attention to language in this case, which is that but do words matter . I mean, weve spent three years saying words matter. Thas going to be my point words matter. And what were talking about are activists who aree watching peoing murdered and their rallying cry comes from theeart. But when it moveinto political hands, when it moves into policy spaces, t also have to be very clear about how do we ere, because we live in a nation doesnt meanecause youre right you get what you want. Is not to weaken their cry because the messaging doesnt resonate with us or to adopt it and then turn it into something its not. My responsibility is to ink about how do we take the substantive vision that they have and make it a reality, which is thats black lideed matter and the people that are supposed to be served by our public served and not kile actually i mean, there is this question y about whethe know, activists have their cries. But if they really mean it, does it undermine the kind of policy progress i think people like you and me and many of us want to see. It didnt dismantle the teparty whenhey called for completely dismantling government. The tea party was able to use rhetoric oh, i think it did. Hmm . I think the rhetoric from the tea party deeply undermined the a partys progress. It deeply undermined it long term. Once they got into office and realed what you said as an activist couldnt translate into politics. But lets remember how effective the tea party was in the 2010 elections in riling up behavioren and riling ugy. And because the people they were speaking forst were earn their beliefs. And what we see happening with activists is that they and they are goingte. Beliefs my job is not to police no pun intended the language of activists who are pitting themselvessy against em that dismisses them. My responsibility is to thinkw about we meet the underlying issues that lead to those cries. I my poithat activists in our society,ecific pue regardless of what their activism is around, because they are usually using the strongest and rawest language they have to express but as someone who is in Public Policy, my responsibility is to think about how do wactually achieve the outcome that is sought. And its not to get into debates about the legitimacy of language or not. Its to think about what are they ying to do and how do we get it done . Okay, as you know, firing line aired 33 years, was hosted by william f. Buckley jr. , who hosted representative john lewis on the program. An he and john lewis, who is of georgia, as you know, had a conversation about the Voting Rights act and its effect on black americans. Look at this clip from 1974. I would be very interested in hearing your v wws t your matured reflections are on whether the use of the ballot box is, in fact, the means by which you introduce justice, equality, opportunity. At this particular time in americahistory, i would say that the ballot the most meaningful instrument that black people can use toward bringing about e and equality. This conversation happened only a mon after you were born, and you recently wrote a New York Times opinion oitorial making the argument for the importanvoting. So do you think that lewis statement still holds true today that the ballot box is the most effective instrument for bringing about justice and uality . That conversation happened 46 years ago. But the creation of the systemic racism, systemic suppression started 240plus years before. An wet undo in 46 years that which has had 200 years to ossify and to concretize. Though, is to not abandon, the mechanisms that a democracy handss. Its our responsibility to use the demographic changes, the inflection points and the ballot box to take what we want and turn it into action. So anbsolutely, i believe that voting remains the single most effective and powerful weapon we have to create justice in our country. And yet you wrote. Democracy feels inadequate. Voting feels inadequate because it takes time. It is tedious. I complex. And we who have suffered under any degree of suppression or oppression, we worry that we wont be hereto ee the results. There is an urgency to our lives that says we need change to happen so better can come. And votings a process. It is not a solution. It not a cure. But much with disease, with any disease likehe disease of racism, like the disease of injustice, and those treatmentsatment. Cant be itinerate. They cant be episodic. They have to be consistent, particully for a disease that can metastasize and so voting is tdoes. Kind of treatment that requires steady application. And its going to take a while. And the reality is the disease doesnt st turn around and go away because you started taking a treatment. There are setbacks and those setbacks have to be acknowledged. But the way we keep the treatment working, the way we moved from slavery to justice, the way we move from disenfranchisement to voting, the way weake our moves is that we use the right to vote. Its voting and its the selection of those who speak for our nation that changour future. With votingn mind, i cant not ask you about that georgians had to vote. Primary elections were just held in your state of georgia. And aftemore than a 100 Million Investment in new voting equipment,we ther still reports of eighthour lines and chaos. Ch cal difficulties abounded. Some pls in and around atlanta were open till 9 30, 10 00 at night. There was one atlanta suburb that is 88 percent black and had lines until 12 37 a. M. For people to cast their ballots. And who is responsible . This was a combination of incompetence and malfeasance. When you and i spoke las i detailed all of the challenges that we face in georgias voting system, and what layered on this timeha was the pu of 107 million worth of machines were inadequately trained. They were inadequately sourced. L therwere cges with making the machines operable. And there was a liberate indifference to the voters of georgia from the secretary of state, whose constitutional obligation it is to ensuremi the stration of elections. And so the buck stops with him. E brad rperger did not do his job. Should he resign . I am not calling for resignation yet because part of the challenge is we dont know who is going to replace him. And the person whoould be in charge of his replacement is someone who has also been an so i am less sanguineppression. About the notion of brian kemp being the rson who picks the replacemt for brad raffensperger, which is how the system in georgia works. Yes, there were mistakes made by counties, but every single county is thepoibility of the secretary of state when it comes to the administration of elections. And lets be clear. It targeted black and brown communities. They were the least likely to be resourced. They had the longest. They had the greatest trouble. But in the speaker of the houses district, there were counties that also faced this. Republican rural count suburban mixed counties across the state. Mp his inence harmed everyone because when you break the machinery of democracy, you break it for everyone. So, leader abrams, how is this problem going to be fixed by nember . Well, there are a few things one, and thats where the incompetence comes in. He spent 400,000 in federal elections assistance money, doing an advertisement about how smart he was for picking these new machines. 1,600 poll workersid for on election day. And those poll workers could have reduced those lines,a spedprocess and helped out voters. But his refusal to do his job what happened. However, we cannot solve these problems ane because what happened in georgia, while singular, is not solely the placee whis is a problem. Across this country, have to be part ofolution. To 34 states have noexcuses absenteealloting. 16 states have absentee balloting but with excuses. But the heroes act, the investment by the federal government into cashstrapped states and local commu, thats going to be absolutely to work in novemberions anywhere in the country. Every state in our country has acknowledged at int or another mailin balloting has to happen. To the logic. Everyone there are some who argue, look, if its safe enough toes pr its safe enough to go to the polls and vote. How do you respond to them . Protesting is a personal decision that is based on the uency an individual feels about going out and making their voice heard. But voting is a constitutional right and that therefore the state actors tre that it is a safe engagement, because there are a lot of folks who arent protesting who may share those beliefs, but they are afraid of dying. And so theyre not. We should not put on the individual their decision abo harm or help when they make this is a public ribility and therefore it is incumbent upon the states to make it safe as possible for every person to vote. N our time now, your new book, you say, and this is a quote. What are democrats dng wro . Too often we keep trying to win the last election using the exact same electorate profileth we think either cost us the victory or won us the war. And so my response is we have to meet every single year, every single electionea with a really eye ndwards whos here now. Every year, moreore young people cross that age barrier from 17 to 18 and can participate. And we know theyre more demographically diverser than theyve een in american history. We know that there are those hove been dissatisfied w e performance of the president who are coming to our side. And we know that theyre people who have long agreed with us but havent participated because no ones asked them to. Ive never espsed this notion of you ignore one group for another. Wh bu i have said is you spend as much money on that group as you see the likelihoodci of their partion. And this is a voter who has rejected you time and again, as opposed to a voter who has not voted but has always agreed with you, then you should spend a disproportionate share of your funds on those who share your values and a commensurate amount on those who dont. At various points, really, r the last two years, your star has risen and it has risen high enough now to the point where there is a lot of speculation about whether you are being vetted for v. P. , whether the biden camp can you clarify . To you. Have they reached out to you i have been in communication. Our fair fight organization has been in communication with the Biden Campaign very much so in the last few months because we are working to ensuri access to tht to vote in 18 states through our work. Ng and we are shanformation. We are in communication. And im proud of that because my work is to ensure that we have free and Fair Elections in 2020. But when it comes to the v. P. Speculation and vetting, i send everyone in the direction of the Biden Campaign. Theyre running this p and they will share what they think is appropriate. Vice President Biden hasaid that hes going to pick a woman. Do you believe its important he pks a woman of color . As ive said before, i think Vice President biden does not take any community for granted, particularly people of color. I think his response in the wake of these protests and the coersations were having about systemic justice, he has been thoughtful and present in ways that i am very appreciative of. But yes, as a woman of color, i think there is a signal that n be sent for women of color to be in that position. But ndamentally, it is the Vice President s decision because hes the only personwh s held that job and hes the only person who knows the partnership he needs. N my responsibility, regardless of who he chooses, is to ensure that b omes the next president of the United States. Okay, final question. Youve said you have he. There are a lot of people who need hope right now. So will you share with us,at ives you hope . In our time is now, i begin the book by talking about my grandmother, who in 1968 balks at the notion of actually using the right to vote. Her hesitation is what we hear and see in millions of american who do not leir voices a fear that its not real, a fear that it wont work, a fear that that power is too much. But my hope is grounded in the fact that my grandmother voted anyway, that she tried anyway, and that because of her, i had a chance to stand to be the firsblack woman to possibly become a governor in the history of the United States. I have hope because ive seen it made real. I have hope because i know its possible. And i have hope because i believe in america we are a nation of stumbles and mistakes,bu we are also a nation of grace. And if we let that grace lift us up and lead us, then we will thrive. Well, on that note, leader abrams, thank you for returning to firing line. Margaret, its been once again a pleasure. Thank you. Firing line with Margaret Hoover is made possible by. Additional funding is provided by. Corporate funding is provided by. Youre watching pbs. The people who gave the money to make Mister Rogers neighborhood are the pef this and other. And. Its a Beautiful Day in tighborhood a Beautiful Day for a neighbor would you be mine . Could you be mine