[smith] of course we got by without it for years. [clemens] we did, but you got technology and there were a few umpires way back when that changed a worldseries. And im sure they probably wanted it back then too. Itd probably changed their lives a little. [smi] what do you think about limiting mound visits. That was an innovation within the last year or so, right . They introduced that you could only have six mound visits in a game. [clemens] yeah, right. So, i kid em about trying to do the speed up in the games. [smith] cause all of our kids have no attention span. They want everything over faster. They think its a video game. [clemens] well, it is, it is. But, you have the, you know, you have, i tease my boys about everybodys gotta have a walk up song now so you can walk there and be cool. And all this stuff. You gotta have a walk up song, you gotta have, of course, you gotta have your commercial breaks and your sponsors and everything. So thats gonna take time, too. So, theyre trying to speed it up. In the Minor Leagues they have a pitch clock. But, i just got off the phone two days ago with three minor league guys theyve turned it from really good pitchers to throwers because that 15 second clock hits, the catchers calling the game, they grab the ball and they just throw it. They dont exercise their mind or do anything [smith] so thats not positive. [clemens] its not positive but you really have to be johnny on the spot and understand what youre trying to do at the plate. [smith] now i see, if i read the news right, that with next season theyre now going to say that you have a minimum number of batters you have to face if youre brought into the game. Theyre saying that if a reliever comes in itll no longer be one and done, but you have to face a minimum of three batters, unless theres an injury, or the end of an inning. So what do you think about that . [clemens] well, when you ask the question i think about two of my teammates that could throw right or left handed. And they had to declare. They had six fingered glove and it was hilarious. The guy would stand in lefthanded, my guy would put hishand o, and the batter would sneak back over to the righthanded box. He switch back over. Whos gotta declare . You know, whos gonna declare which way were gonna go . [smith] why are we monkeying with baseball . Baseball survived all these years without this engineering of an outcome, and engineering of a clock. [clemens] my sons team are two different teams, too. One of my sons teams want him, they dont care about his strikeouts. They want him making his outs in the air. And trying to hit homers. My other guy wants him choking up with two strikes putting the ball in play. So, it becomes, you know, you gotta understand which team youre playing for also. So theres a lot going on. Theres a lot thats going on now with television. I can go, and the work i do with the astros, ill show up in the astros, i can go down to their video room, we have stationary cameras. I can go in there d watch exactly what the pitchers doing see the catchers cadence. So you gotta be careful of everything that you do on the field as far as guys giving pitches, folding their arms at second base, and maybe putting their hands on their knees for a pitch away. Thats why you see, again the baseball fanatics youll see a catcher not move. Hell give the sign a fastball away but hell sit, sit, sit, and then time i get my leg started up, then he jumps to the outside corner. Which is a problem for two things, most umpires lean in put their arm on the back of the, for balance, on the catcher. And i always tell my catchers to sit still. Ive had some fantastic catchers over the years. To sit still, trust your hands. But if my catcher drifts just a little, that umpire, that borderline pitch im not gonna get, he thinks its outside. So theres a lot of stuff that goes in. Its not just see ball, hit ball, throw ball, theres a lot going on. [smith] i just like simplifying it. Now i want it to be, i just wanna believe its simple. But again, to your point, [clemens] lets go down to this Little League field down here and well just, well spit seeds and drink gatorade. crowd laughing [smith] thats gonna be the greatest day ever, i know, with Roger Clemens. Who was the best hitter you ever faced . This will be like a game show speed round. Who was the best hitter you ever faced . [clemens] well, they ask me who the toughest guys and similar to that question, again, what comes to mind when you ask the question, evan, is i wanted to make it to the major leagues to face reggie jackson. Reggie was the guy kinda i watched with the yankees. And when i got to fenway park, and we played the california angels reggie was coming to the plate and our announcer with his big booming voice, now batting number 44 for the california angels reggie j, and i caught myself, my shoes werent untied but i was retying and untying, and retying my shoes as he was going to the batters box. Im like, oh my gosh. Im in the big leagues, im fixin to face reggie jackson. So, and to have his halfshield helmet and those glasses on and, so thats who i wanted to face. My toughest hitters were the contact guys. The big power guys like i would tell, like albert pujols, that albert knew that each at bat he was probably was gonna get one very good pitch to hit. And if he missed it or fouled it off, i gotcha. [smith] yeah. [clemens] the contact guys. [smith] but he would get you sometimes also. [clemens] oh absolutely, absolutely. A long way he would hit it sometimes. You pitch 24 years, ive given up some yardage and homers. [smith] thats right. [clemens] but, the contact guys because of the proximity of the ball parks, the biggest foul territories, oaklands colosseum. So, if you make a really good pitch and the guy tries to, you know, guys are so good in the big leagues with their bats. I tell people, it doesnt matter how hard you throw, guys in the big leagues can put wood on a bullet, i mean, theyre that good. And they will foul off a very tough pitch, youre hoping it doesnt go in the first or second row, so your pitch count goes up, so you gotta be careful with that, too. Especially, how hard theyre watching pitch counts now, as you alluded to earlier. You not gonna see to many complete games anymore. And that was, in our generation, i saw the pitching coach come to take me outf the game, im giving him the worst look that you could ever see. [smith] well, the fact is i think you still hold the record, do you not, for the most complete games in a season . 18 complete games in, [clemens] i dont know that. [smith] no, i believe you do. And thats extraordinary to me because you think about now how rare it is to see a complete game. To see one complete game. [clemens] it is very rare. [smith] right, the coaches are happy to pull you out and put in a Aroldis Chapman or a Trevor Hoffman in at the last because they know that guys fresh he can knock em all down in the, you know, one, two, three in the end. Why would we let the pitcher stay in a little bit longer . 18 complete games, roger. [clemens] similar to having a really field goal kicker, you know . So, and youre right, six innings, sometimes fi innings, the starters looking over his shoulders because you have three, a seventh inning guy that throws 97, an eighth inning guy throws 98, and your closers coming in throwing 100. And youre trying to protect me on pitch count because of the dollars youre paying me to make sure that im fresh and ready in september and october for a playoff run. [smith] who is the team that you hated playing the most . No matter where you played, who was the team when you knew you were about to play those guys you started to get all itchy . [clemenswell, i never got itchy. I mean, i was fired up on a wednesday afternoon business special game in milwaukee or [smith] didnt matter. [clemens] no, it didnt matter. [smith] was there a team you hated to play . [clemens] well, i was taught to when i became a red sox, to hate the yankees. And then when i went to the yankees i was taught to hate the red sox. Right exactly. [smith] so, its as boring as that. The old rivalries. [clemens] what makes it a rivalry is when both teams are competitive. When ias with boston, yankees were not very good. I mean, they had don mattingly, a few other guys. But, the blue jays were our kinda rival cause they were really winning in the late 80s, early 90s won a couple world series. Then when i went to new york and the ownership changed in boston and they got extremely competitive. Thats when, thats when you see the great competition because you are competing for a championship. And if you have pride in what you do and the city wear on your chest, which i was taught by a mother and granother who raised me when i watched my mother work three jobs, work her tail off so i could have, we werent rich by any means, but she would work and i would have this sweet pair of cleats like the guy down the street, and a really cool red glove so i thought we were it, you know . So, but i was taught that way and watching my mother work those three jobs so i had pride when i did that work for those ams. [smith] didnt make a difference who you were playing you were happy to playing no matter what. [clemens] i was fortunate, [smith] fromhe first to the last. [clemens] yeah, two of the most historic teams and then retire and have the opportunity to come home sleep in my own bed and play, have three wonderful years at my advanced age with the astros, go to the world series. Tried to retire again and then yankees called for one more season. I told the general manager when he called me, are you crazy . He goes, what are you doing . I go, im watching yall get swept in cleveland. He goes, well, how long will it take you to get ready . And i go, cash, im 45 years old. And he goes, i know. I need you in my fourth and fifth, but i need you in the locker room and the clubhouse, too. [smith] it was as much about what you did off the field. [clemens] yeah, so just the comradery and keeping teammates on the same page, and you know, having fun. [smith] so more than 4,600 strikeouts in your career. Only Randy Johnson and nolan ryan in the history of baseball had more strikeouts than you did. Number three, all time. Was there any one strikeout over the course of that that you think about maybe your favorite strikeout. Was there a moment over the course of those 24 seasons where you isolate out one time that you faced a batter, or were they all good . [clemens] they were all good. I mean, anytime you can get a strikeout. The ones that are more meaningful, of course, is one out man on third and you need a strikeout to keep the inning alive. Get a strikeout after one of your teammates have made a error, so you get a fourth out, per se, and keep their name out of the paper for making a big error. [smith] yeah, people forget about that if you get out of the inning. [clemens] thats right, your teammates thank you a lot running off the field. But you know what . Again, i bring up bill fischer. My pitching coach that i hawith tom seaver and what a luxury it was. You again, talked about it earlier, having that opportunity at 21 yearsold, 22 off the campus here at texas, having the opportunity to play with tom seaver and watch him as the truest of power pitchers. But bill fischer still to this day holds the, he did not walk a guy in 89 innings. I think its 89 or 90, i should know exactly, but its right in that area. [smith] well, just something crazy. [clemens] he never walked a guy. And, so in both 20 strikeout games he was with me on the first one and he called me on the second, after the second one. And he called me smokey after smokey joe wood, the great smokey joe wood. And, said that i love it that you struck out 20 and set the major league record, but i love it even more so you were throwing at that high rate of speed and you didnt walk anybody. [smith] didnt walk anybody. Thats a pretty good measure of success. [clemens] those are pretty good. [smith] so i go through all the statistics. I mentioned 354 wins, more than 4,600 strikeouts, seven cy young awards. No one will ever, i mean thats probably a record that will stand for all time. Why are you not in the hall of fame . [clemens] well, writers vote on it. [smith] well, you know what im asking about. So seven consecutive ballots. Your percentage of the vote each has gone up. I think this last year when you were not voted in you got just below 60 . Youre eligible for three more years, you gotta get to 75. It may be that you dont get in. Now, the only thing i could think of is that people have decided, despite what youve said, despite what the court said, despite that you had no failed drug tests, you had no suspensions. People think that you used performance enhancing drugs and they wont vote you in the hall of fame. Am i wrong to think that . [clemens] well, you are if youre looking at facts. But, i cant control, like i said, they asked me about the hall, i cant, i have zero control over that. Number two is, i didnt really play the game to worry about making the hall of fame. [smith] that wasnt the point. [clemens] yeah, so after my first couple of years. The first couple years i was wanting to make a living. And i saw that i could make a great living for me and my family. After that it was about winning championships. But, as far as the voting goes, i tell the guys that vote for you, thats great. In my situation what i did, we went at it the proper way. Like i said, it was, the stuff that i went through was similar to what kavanaugh and all this stuff i see that goes on now with trump and kavanaugh, and all this other stuff. And it was great that we stopped a couple guys from making money off my name. They were out there claiming they werthis or that, they did this for me, they did that for me, and they had book deals but nobody ever writes about that. But we went about it the right way and we handled it properly. [smith] youve been adamant from the very beginning, the accusations that were made in the mitchell report and the individuals who made those accusations, your statement from the very beginning was, i didnt do it. [clemens] yeah, but there was only one individual and we gave them everything that they wanted. And we went through it. It was pretty trying, not only, like i said if i didnt have my boys and family and sisters and brothers they were really upset about it all. And, but we handled it the proper way and like i tell people if it happens, if they want to vote it doesnt really matter to me either way, like i said. Its not something that i played for. The guys that look at the facts and do it all is great. But you have zero control over it, like i said. I think that for me the hall of fame when somebody says, hey hes a hall of famer, its kind of a selfish thing. There would be so many people i need to thank including the all the catchers i talked about earlier, players that i played with, n, theres just, its like i said, not only your family and people that helped you get there, but again the guys that ive been talking to over the last week [smith] people who never get the credit. [clemens] thats right. Theyll never have a chance to be in the hall of fame but they were hall of famers to me because they were fantastic teammates of mine. [smith] so you dont feel cheated . Right, you went through the legal system, you went through the process. First trial was a mistrial, second trial you were found innocent. [clemens] yeah. [smith] like i said, never failed a drug test, never suspded from baseball. And the allegations against you really only apply to latter part of your career. Even if you lop that part off the numbers you put up in the first part of your career were hall of fame worthy already. So you have no regrets . You dont feel cheated by this . [clemens] no, absolutely not. And i cant lop off the second half of my career cause it was a wonderful second half of my career or twilight of my career. And, you know, i did it to the fullest. I played the game hard and i played it the right way. So, again like i said, its like people that for some reason they can Say Something negative about you these days and it gets on the website or Something Like that and it sticks. So, but again, we went about it right way and i dont think i would change it for a minute. And, like i said, we put and made people that were making accusations, and they made a lot of money off my name. Its a shame, like i said, it was just short of pretty much of a Jerry Springer show. And i like Jerry Springer, i met Jerry Springer and i had fun with it, but it was [smith] that by the way will be the headline of this interview. You like Jerry Springer. That may be the craziest thing youve said all day. [clemens] yeah, oh yeah, yeah. [smith] yeah, okay. Your boys, the naming all your boys with names that begin wh k, i get it. Thats pretty good. [clemens] it started with the first one and it just started happening. [smith] you just couldnt get, yeah. [clemens] and ifwed triedl id be living with you right now shed kick me right out. [smith] is that right . Well, come on over. Its a little bit like George Foreman naming all of his kids george. Although, yours is more clever i think actually. [clemens] and i think hes got about eight georges. [smith] he does, its very confusing at dinner time there in the foreman house. Two of your boys played for the university of texas, followed you here. One in the Blue Jays Organization now, one in the tigers organization. Were you a good sports dad . Or were you a helicopter parent. [clemens] yeah, so i just get to be dad until they or their friends ask me a pointed question. Or, a coach asks me to come in to address the team. Ill do that. [smith] but thats now. [clemens] yeah. [smith] were you a good sports dad when they were much younger . [clemens] i was the dad that was in charge of the video and wiping the tears and doing the bandaids. And i loved that part of it. [smith] just like the rest of us, sort of, weirdly. [clemens] yeah, yeah. [smith] there was nothing special about the fact that their dad happens to be Roger Clemens. [clemens] no. But i was always the one that had to throw the kids pitch ause the coaches couldnt throw a strike. So then i went out there and found out just how hard it was to throw a kids pitch. [smith] yeah, but honestly if youre seven years old and you stare up the person throwing kids pitch and its Roger Clemens. [clemens] they dont know that. They just know im a dad that throws strikes. The other kids now, ill tell you a quick story. I thought pitching in game 7 of the world series was pressure. Pressure is when you get six pitches in dads pitch and youve thrown five balls and the moms screaming at you up there at that, thats pressure. Youre trying to aim it perfectly at his bat. [smith] why cant you do that . [clemens] meanwhile, ive got my youngest one whos about seven in the little circle with me, that after the kid hits it you gotta run off the field. And hes like, dad, dont let him hit this one, dont let him hit it, dont let him hit it. So he wants me to throw it past him. So ive got all kinds of stuff happening. [smith] hes just a regular kid. [clemens] oh yeah. [smith] did you encourage them to play . Would you have been able to stop them from playing if theyd wanted to . [clemens] they played a little bit of all the sports. Again, i think that sports in general teach you how to get along with others in the work field. I told both young boys i love it that theyre chasing their dreams in professional baseball but i love it even more that kacy went through the Mccombs Business School here with colors and kody the communications school. My oldest one, kody, played 10 years. Was fantastic never got a break to make it to the majors. And he is teaching now, which is great. Number two, he had a little time on campus then he graduated from le cordon bleu here in austin. And as i told you earlier hes doing some real estat and then kacys with the blue jays, kodys with the tigers. Kody had a [smith] proud of all of them. [clemens] all of them. So again, i get to play the dad role when i have to step in with the other people there or they ask me a pointed question ill give them the best i can or ill go to one of my teammates. I mean, kacy and them got to run around and watch, you know, and play bat boy and derek jeters right there and bernie williams, tino martinez, i mean the list goes on and on. Mith] well, these kids grew up in an atypical household lets just say. If they wanted to be Baseball Players eventually again having you as their dad a little weird. A little pressure. [clemens] i tell people its kinda wild they see me at the gas station and im pumping my own gas and theyre like, i say yeah, i gotta put gas in my car. You know what im saying . [smith] exactly. Just because im Roger Clemens my car doesnt run levitate, right . Thats how that goes. So we have about a minute left. Whats the most important thing youre doing now after baseball besides being a dad . [clemens] well, my foundation, the Roger Clemens foundation, we help at risk kids. [smith] not everybody has the opportunity to do that kind of good work. [clemens] well, i was one of those kids. You know, i was one of those youngsters like i said, i was raised by a very strong willed grandmother and mother. Again, with the audience and the viewers. I tip my hat to anybody thats had military or anybody served i tip my hat to all yal thank you, and blessings there. The coolest thing that i ever did in my life has nothing to do really with baseball. It happened because of baseball. I was supposed to pitch the night of 9ll in new york. I was a new york yankee going for my 20th win against the boston red sox. All hell broke loose, as we know. My agents went to high school with general myers, our four star general he asked me to go to the middle east. We took comedian drew carey with us. Seven days of just an experience that i will never forget. The pentagon had printed up photos and baseballs for me to sign on the way over there on air force two. Met some of the baddest marines in the planet that make us feel comforble to go out in public and play a public game. They had two guys cover me the whole trip. It made me look like a punter. You think i was big, i looked like a punter standing next to [smith] compared to does guys, right, yeah. [clemens] so again, i had seven uncles serve. My brother went to vietnam, my oldest brother. And i tip my hat to everybody in the audience if theyve served or their family members, cause it was so cool to go over there and see our men and women. [smith] so now you get to do good works and recognize good works. And thats this part of your life. [clemens] absolutely. [smith] right, you have any desire to get back in there now and play . [clemens] no, i get to visit with quite [smith] so you get a phone call now from somebody. Jim crane who owns the astros says, come on back. [clemens] well, i work for houston now. [smith] right, but he calls you, he says, [clemens] oh, to pitch . [smith] come on and pitch. [clemens] yeah, it would be like one of those cartoons where i throw it and my arm goes with it. crowd laughing thats what would happen. [smith] we may have to end on a point of disagreement. I still think you could strike out most people. Roger clemens thank you very much for taking time. Good to be with you. [clemens] thanks for having me. [smith] okay, good, give him a hand. [clemens] thank you. applause [smith] wed love to have you join us in the studio. Visit our website at klru. Org overheard to find invitations to interviews, q and as with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. [clemens] the emotions in 24 years. I showed my back side out there probably, six, seven times. Not proud of it. But, you know what . I care. I care about my work and i care about how i did my job. Now, my mother when she was alive would call me and say, honey, could you put your glove. And thats why you see everybodys glove going in front of their face all the time when i was griping and saying some things. [female announcer] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners. A texas Government Affairs consultancy. The Alice Kleberg reynolds foundation. Claire and carl stuart. And by entergy. bright chiming in part by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. You know, the fundamental of the idea that the adult brain is set in stone is the common saying that you cant teach an old dog new tricks. But, in factyou can. The adult brain, again, at the ripe old age, in their 40s, 50s, 60s, even beyond, can change its structure and function in a significant way. Everyone i know whos getting older and forgets things