[smith] saeed jones, welcome. [saeed jones] thank you, hey [smith] and congratulations [jones] thank you so much. [smith] s. I think its an enorms accomplishment. As i shared with you before we came out,k. I dont like anything. laughing im not moved by anything. [jones] ok. [smith] im totally off. [jones] oh youre elsa. [smith] well, sure ok. [jones] cold. [smith] the second time i read this book, i got teary. Because i really think that it is as moving a story, even though your story is not everybodys story, everybodys story is not your story. Ill come back to this in a second, the universality of it, the fact that we all see in oursea time in our lives when we were trying to figure out who we were. Because reallythats what [jones] yes, that is it, thats the work. [smith] thats what the book is about. Why did you decide to write it . Basic question. [jones] i think like many writs, we write to understand. We write because were curious and interested in something that happened. Somethat i struggled with though, as i was growing up, and you see this a bit in theook, was that i knew i wanted to be a writer. And you see this a bit ii knew. K, but as i was struggling to come into an understanding of my identity, my race, sexuality,ender, and really struggling with depression and selfhate, to be honest, the impulses collided. And so when i was younger, i would stay in dangeroit rooms, figurative andal, use i was like well, i can write about this. And doesnt that mean im in control of whats going on . And so i struggle with that. But thats a problem, thats a problem. And so i rthlized i wanted to writbook when i felt i had a different intention. [smith] so are you writing yourselfk out of the room essentially . [jones] writing myself out of the room, and explaining why out for other people. Tially . [smith] so it is for other people. D again, i think theres something that all of us can take from this book. But it sounds to me like, what i suspected, you also wrote tally for you as much as for us, right . [jones] sure, i think certainly a memoir, right, and making sense of it. And the challenges of writing a memoi its just instructive. Because you have to fully flesh yourself out and other characters, and the landscape. I cant juew say yeah i grew up inville and youve got it, most people will never be in lewisville, nessarily. I have to bring it to life, and that creative act, you learn from it. And then more memories start to come. Memory is an unreliable narrator. Youre grappling with youmemories. We incorrectly remember things, intentionally and uninnally, all the time. And so in the five years in earnest that i was writing the book, from the time i sold it and then publishing it, im glad im a slow writer. Because it allmemories to p and have time to really separate [smith] you had to work through that. Ones] i did. [smith] you bring up a couple of good points about writing memoirs. First thing is that sometimes your own memory is unreliable, youre an unreliable narrator. [jones] yes [smith] of your ow. [jones] we are all the unreliable narrators. [smith] how certain are you, since this is presented to us as your story, how certain are you that your memories are, by the time we read it, reliable . [jones] i think theyre reliable in the sense that im pretty straightforward in terms of my own reliability. And i say theres some really important, high intensity moments in the book and i go, ipeont remember what hd next. I dont remember what e said, i wish i did. [smith] but the conversations recounted, at least reflect what happened. [jones] they reflect what ppened. [smith] there are no composite char, right . [jones] right. [smith] its a true story. [jones] yeah, and you know, sure. About what iont remember, because im already asking a lot of you as a reader in that im using fictive techniques. Im creating dialogue, right . And so im trying to do my bes but you try to rein it in. Thats why i try to be very intentional and sparin dialogue because listen, most of us, were lucky if we can remember a few words from a specific conversation [smith] that happened today [jones] today, this morning. [smith] today, right as opposed to going back many years. [jones] years later, totally. [smith] the other part about writing a memoir, at, ive not written a memoirand would imagine it would be difficult for a lot of reasons. But at least because youre forced to access things that youd just as soon not remember, or access. So how much selfediting did you do of the diffiparts of your . Having read this book a couple of times, it dersnt seem like you leftmuch out. laughing or anything that was difficult, let me say it this way, that you didnt shy away from recounting things that were difficult, in fact, that almost seems to have been the poin [jones] it was the point. [smith] rit. [jones] the idea ofms to difficult subject matter, i understand it as reader, i do. And i recorded the audiobook earlier this summer. And ive gotta tell you,reak was a totally different experience. [smith] harder or easier . [jones] harder. Reading the ook was the first time i got choked up. [smith] saying the words out loud. [jones] mm hmm, oh my gosh, saying what that pastor says. [smith] yeah. [jones] saying things my grandmother and i, we said to each other. At was d. And the last chapter, that was the only time. We said to each other. At was d. But as a writer, i dont feel that way. What was difficult was writing about my mother, shes not alive anymore. [smith] right. And i want to honor that love, and being respectful. [smith] she passed a while ago. [jones] she passed away in 2011. [smith] right, so shes of course, not seen the book. [jones] yeah, yeah, so i feel respectful to her. [smith] what would she say about this book . How would she feel abo it . [jones] hmm interesting. [smith] before we came out today, we talked about the facthat your grandmother whos a significant character in this book, youricncle who is a less signt character, but is important. [jones] hes there. [jones] theyre still with us. They read the book. [smith] theyve read the book. Your mother never got the opportuny to read it. What would she say about it . [jones] well she knew that i was going to write a book one day. When i wasaduate school, she called me, and she said i told grandma youre writing a memoir one day and i explained what it was. And i was like, uh, and i froze in my trks on college campus, where i was in graduate school at rutgers, and i said what did she say . And she id uh oh laughing [smith] she said uh oh. laughing [jones] thats what mildred said uh oh, that was it. So i think my mom was aware of my intentions, that it was a goal down the line. You know, its hard. I hope i made her proud. One of my goals wamake it clear that my mothermy grandmother, they are not literary devices, they are people. Blk women in America Fighting for their own lives. And i wanted to tell the sto, and of course, theyre a part of what goes on. But i wanted the reer to understand that they have their own stories. Iv and if my mom was maybe shed go oh maybe ill write my own book now. [smith] maybe shell tell her own story. Llones] yeah. [smith] i think youre unsparing in your portrayal of your mother and grandmother, i dont mean that in a negative sense. I think that youre honest about it. Youre not cruel tthem. Youre not presenting them in a negative light. [jones] thank you. [smith] youre presenting them as who they are. Were all flaw. We all have challenges, we all deal with them the best wincan. [jones] yeah. lau [smith] your mothers life was extraordinary cause for one thing, it gave you, as you very clearly say in the book, yoofare who you are becausho she was. [jones] yes. [smith] late in the book theres a line that ys something to the effect of our mothers are who we all are. Right . [jones] our mothers are why we are here. [smith] oh why were. [jones] yeah, yeah. [smith] were all products of that. Were all somebodys kid. [jones] yeah. [smith] and i think that in that respect, theres a lot of admiration for how she ised you and who she allowed you to become, and how you became who you were because of her. But at the samtrtime, its an honest pal of the struggles that your mother had which are material in this book, as well. I think you gotta re [smith] they may be made a little uncomfortable by st ing it on the page, u know. [jones] yeah, i mean, its interesting. I talked to my grandmother a few timeabout the book while i was writing it. [smith] while you were writing it. [jones] mm hmm. And shes very interesting. She has never attempted to reframe, make excuses, control the story. [smith] she is who she is. [jones] shes who she is. And when she read it, the first third of the book where, for my grandmother and i in particular, its really fraught. I newhr told my mom about happened that summer with my grandmother and i, and its intense. [smith] say in short, for the benefit people who have not yet read the book, explain what were talking about. So my mom practiced nichiren buddhism, she chanted speaking Foreign Language tina turner, you might know that, and the rest of our family super do not practice nichiren buddhism. [smith] right. About the opposite end of the sctrum. [jones] yeah, about as far away, devoly christian in different denominations. Some of my earliesries are of my family arguing. Like me beint enough to sit under the table and i just remember seeing everyone yelling and shouting about god and hell. And by the time im a teenager in the book, you see meero to memphis for the su as my mom, as single parent often st me home. [smith] where your grandmother lives. [jones] where my grandmother lived, in memphis. C were used to going rch every sunday and i didnt mind it. But that summer e started going to an Evangelical Pentecostal Church as opposed to the black Baptist Church i was used to. That was a change. And im a teenager there. Listte, any caregiver, any her, mentor, listen, is scary, laughing andrealizing your kidere. Is now becoming this other eity. Theyre getting bold, theyre talking back, theyre makinghoices. Its a lot, in america its a lot. So i understand her anxiety. And i think se responded to it ing were gonna get you to church as much as possible. [smith] more church is the answer. [jones] more church is the answer. And so we were going to church suddenly, three or four nights a week not including sunday mornings. It was just a lot, i felt like it was all we did. [smid looking back now you dont begrudge her. [jones] i dont begrudge her, it was a mistake. It culminates in a terrible mistake. Because at the begrudge end of the summer,ke. She takes me to the front of the church, takes me up to this man that i did not know. D i remember thinking about that, weve never even spoken. She says this is my grandson, saeed. His mother is buddhist. And he just nodded lthat was he would ever need to know about me, and my mother, who he also absolutely had not met, right . And he just stard to pray. And then he said god, this boys mother has gondown the path of satan and decided to drag him down too. [smith] right. [jones] and speaking of dialogue, ngi do remember everyte said. [smith] that he said. [jones] i will remember it for the rest of my life. St ill be dead and illl reme. [smith] that he said. He said make her suffer. [smith] yeah. [jones] and he jusragoes on in this ela curse rain your plagues, make her sick so that she will ffer and realize shes down the wrong path, and come back to the church and ber son with her, amen, amen. That was the prayer,which. And so i draw that distinction because, oh my god, what cruelty. [smith] right. [jones] and i dore what you believe in, but if youre trying to persuade someone ifout your religion orphilosophy, thats not the way to do it. That your grandmother didnt wish this on you, herself. T. [jones] she didnt. I think, and i talk about this in the book. If you had asked her put your hand on the bible and testify, why did you just do that . I think she wouldve said because i love my grandson. Becam trying to save his soul. Thats why that part of the book, there are hag, terrifying laughing sections in the book, but for me, thats theon that is most painful. Because its an act of love. And i think often, and we need to talk about this more, oftewe hurt, scare, or harm one another out of love [smith] in the name of love, right. [jones] out of concern. America is scary. Ra certainly if you are ing a black kid. Certainly if youre raising gay kid. Since ive been doing this book tour for the last few weeks, moms have come up to me and they talk about Matthew Shepard or thefftalk about atatiana son, young 28 woman [smith] in forth worth. [jones] in fort worth who was just shot and killed, and theyre like i am scared. And sometimes when were scared, like my mother, we get silent. My mother and i had a vibrant relationship. But her response, i think to fear about having a gay black son was that she just couldnt talk about sexuality. Thathe one silence. For my grandmother, her response was proactive. She was like oh, ok, tha i will save his soul. [smith] lets just take him to church. More church is the answer. [jones] more church. [smith] so this book is, in essence, a book about you coming to terms with and better understanding who you are. [jones] yes. [smith] right. [jones] when i said earlier that there was something universal about it, i sit here as straight whin who grew up in the northeast. Youre a gay black man who grew up in texas. But there is a connection between us. And i connected with this book in part because weve all been through the process of discovering who we are. And so whether the narrative through linen your story is about sexual orientation, or its about race, or its about geography. [smith] because i think geography [jones] place is important. Is really important in this book. Nonetheless, what its fundamentally about is understanding better who you are, discovering who you are. [jones] true, yeah. [smith] and that really is the point of this book. [jones] thats why its how we fight for our lives not how i fought for my life. [smith] how you fought onr your life, right. ] because, and im so glad you draw attention to the, also youre the first straight white man whos gotten to interview me for the book. [smith] is that right . [jones] hows it feel . Is it good for you . laughing good for you laughing [smith] im happy to have that superlative. [jones] youre welcome, youre welcome [smith] thank you very much, great,eah. [jones] wear it well but thats the thing because we all one through this process, and are still going through it, it never ends, this work and what we care about. And so whether you know it or not, you are fighti for your life. And i would argue that if you think you arent, youve got a hell of a fight yet to come. [smith] an ealso if you think your done [jones] yeah [smith] with that process of understanding who yoare, youre wrong. Because the fact is, the end of this book, [smith] figured it out, its a work in progress. So you mentioned Matthew Shepard. U called out atatiana jefferson, but in the book you actually talk about also james byrd. [jones] yes. [smith] two things that were, i think, significant, theyre mentioned in passing, ish, in terms of understanding how you are understanding your environment [jones] absolute. [smith] were the dragging death of james byrdanding and the murder of Matthew Shepard. [jones] yes. [smith] and understanding how because youre gay you can be killed. Because youre black you can killed. Thats just enough. [jones] uh huh, thats enough. [smith] talk a little bit about those two as backdrops. [jones] iteresting because i knew the climax i knew thats where we were going to go as a writer and reader together. St organically, truly, i was like okay, so what are the soearliest iteration of of these themes when i started being aware . Itand i just started g about the summer. These specific memories, and i looked it up. And i was like oh, ok, may 1998. Ok, huh, what was, oh my gosh thats jasper, texas, that is four hours from lewisville [smith] lewisville which [jones] texas, is where i grew up. [smith] where you grew up, which is jusnorth of dallas. [jones] yep, yep, just up i35, right between denton and dallas. So thats where were living when, i write about us watching it on the evening news, hearinthat he was beaten up and chained to the back of a truck by three white men who offered him a ride home from work. They turned out to be whe supremacists. And they dragged him until his body was dismembered. [jones] for the sin of being and they dragged him until black, as they perceived it. His body actually desegregated that cemetery in jasper. And much like emmett tills memorial, whplh was just recently ed, its been graffitied and covered in racial slurs over and over again. So thats june, and im watching that. Im like ok, well thats one bit of information. That october is whthew shepard, 21 years ago in laramieunwyoming meets two men at a bar and theyre rike hey, you want to going and go hang out . And they beat him and leave him for dead in a field. And of course, that became a national story. So it was like, im 12 years old, james byrd, jr. Im 12 years old [jones] Matthew Shepard [smith] Matthew Shepard. [jones] im 12 years old, all of that is happening. [smith] it cant help but be context. [jones] yeah [jones] im 12 years old, all of that is happening. And we have to understand this about young people. Young people are always reading thamerican room. They are always watching us. And certainly they have more media now than i did as a kid. So theres a whole nother level of social media. But they see whats the news. They hear whats coming on the radio. And i remember being in the car and hearing shock jocks say homophobic or racist things and people are laughing. And you turn around and you look, are other people laughg . Is my mom laughing . No, ok, thank goodness. [smith] but remember [jones] youre paying attention to that. [smith] youre talking about 21 years ago. [jones] yeah. [smith] when byrd and epard were both killed, so 21 years later, the next generation of ki is even more aware. [jones] yes. [smith] is even more plugged in, [jones] i think so. [smith] connected. [jonesavi think so, some thingschanged. When i was 12, the idea of getting married one day to a man that i love was a fantasy. [smith] how bout a gay president ial candidate campaignong with his husband . ] who knew . Who i might not even like isnt that great . laughg im not required to agree with him because of oo sexual identity, orree with some of the other candidates because of our racl, we havoptions so things have changed, you know. Marrf ge equality is a partr life. There is more representation. [smith] in fact, you talk in the book about obama being elected. Its not a pgoitical book as far as i, although its obviously a political book. One of the moments that li more conventionally cal is oh, African American president. [jones] right, yeah. [smith] but again [jones] deep anxiety. [smith] vastly different. And yet alsoones] yeah,. Because, by the time im a senior in college in kentucky, i went to western kentucky university, that collides with his history, its right before he gets the nomination, right before iowa, actually. [smith] iowa, yeah. [jones] iowa caucus. And every morning i woke up terrified [smith] he would be assassinated. [jones] that he was gonna be asssinated, and in fact nestly, when he won, i remember the inauguration and they announced that Michelle Obama and back obama were going to walk through the parade. And i remember thinking, please dont do that. [smith] please dont do it. [jones] oh my gosh. Because again, i am a texas kid. And every texas kid has beeno the grassy knoll. laughing we have those images, and so i remember. [smith] you remember. [jones] yeah so the joy of the breakthrough was temped, and look at us now years after two terms of a black president. Ok at how america responto thes, its complicated. [smith] we seem to be worse than we were before, or at least were saying the quiet part out loud. [jones] its almoslike were being punished for the breakthrough. I think thats how some people feel. [smith] can you talk about thsouth again . [jones] sure laughing [smith] sense of place in this book is so important. If you had grown up in lewisville, maine, or lewisville, washington state, would the story be the same story, necessarily . [jonesldno, it couldnt, it ct. Something im struck by, and i was talking with friends here last night that the thing about texas, of course, is that it was once a country. [smith] right. [jones] and so it rightfully has this outsized relationship to story that most states dont have, right . It has a very dierent identity and a sense of importance. laughing [smith] importance or selfimportance . [jones] selfimportaand honw i was reading recently cause there are a lot of wonderful books right now about history, and the history of texas. And i learned recently annette gordonreed, wonderful hin. [smith] yeah, great historian. [jones] she wrote about this for the new york review of books. And she noted that an outsized proportion of hugely important supremeteco. [smith] come from texas. [jones] and she plains that lawrence vtexas which i mention at some point in the book, that was the law, my junior year of high school, until my junior year of high school it was still technically legal for Police Officers to arrest men for having sex with men, my junior year so i say all of that to say i think texass identity in relationship to the rest of the country and my desire to write a book that was not just about my story, that was very selfaware and understanding that my story is a vital element of the american story, just as texas is a vital element of americas identity, right . And thats complicated. I think thats where i got that from. When youre growing up in texas, and youre just living, youre always beingtyreminded n [smith] but dont you think though, that your story is part of the american story but the reason thbe it hasnt been told isuse. Youve stepped up to tell. There are saeed jonses other places. [jones] true. [smith] who had similar stories and who have not had the platform or the gumption. [jones] yeah. And thats an importandistinction. People have been telling this story. People are doing tremendous work. I dont believe that people are voiceless. I think people in positions of pow dont wanna listen. Or theyre willfully [smith] its about platforming. [jones] silencing. [smith] of course. I think im very fortunate that for a book to resonate and reach an audience, its not just about the book, its about the time, its aut the place, its about the culture. And the stars do kinda have to align. But yeah, i think, and i mention this at one point and poets, in paicular, who i think of as teachers on the page, died of hiv, aids, or poverty, or violence in their 20s, who didnt make it their early 30s. Im 33 years old. They were doing the work. And i trust that they would still be writing and contributing to our culture now. I wahonor them. And certainly, i am a gay man. But i atve family members dentify as lgbt. I have a cousin who came out as trans. And she has happily and fiercely lived her life in dallas, texas in the dfw area, as long as ive known her, since she was tting me when i was a kid. And so i think it is important for me, and readers to understand my story and appreciate it. T understand its just a part of a bigger story. [smith] and the fact is, because you told your story and have toln a way that has been so celebrated and so visible, there are prably people in the generation behind you who are gonna feel empowered [ [jones] yeah, i hope sith] now to tell their story. In that way, youre paying it forward. [jones] absolutely, absolutely. [smith] arent you . We have just a le minuteseft. So you selfidentify as a poet. [jones] yeah [smith] right. [jones] its a worstview. [smith] are yol a poet . [jones] yeah, i have to admit [smith] becaus is long form writing. [jones] it sure is, for me. [smith] it is very different. As successful as you were before, two previously published books of poetry, awardwinning. You do this, sort of a little bit of a dog leg, right . Do you simply go back to that . How do you view your writing life and your creative output now, after this . [jones] i think of poet as a worldview. Image, and language are my two main lenses to the world. Everything else es through that. Uage and that comes from poetry. I will take poetry to whatever i do. I think it informs the way i play and think on twitter, in my essays. In the book there is lyricism. There is a poem that opens the book. And i wanted to us i learned from poetry to color the emotional nuances of whats going on. Because my prose is actually pretty matteroffact, right . The lyricism allows me to, i think, give you some emotional information. And then beyond that, i think te [smith] you didnt wyour memoi. Emotional information. Theres a reason [jones] i sure didnt, my goodness. [smith] well, the point i make is that sometimes i mean thats it. [jones] yes, yes. [smith] in this case, the long forsaeed has a bigger impact, right ] thank you. [smith] than short form saeed. [jones] yeah, and i think, the weird thing about universali is that i think its directly connected to specificity. And i think with poetry because youre emphasizing sound and image, you cant just be like, oh, and let me explain the pragmatic, the details. You begin to have to kind of tighten the le. And so i wanted to open up. I wanted to be able to kinda flesh out thisorld in a way that prose allows me. [smith] so what do you dnext . [jones] i dont know one, i think attention is wonderful. And its bright, and im so honored. [smith] also, as you know, its fleeting. [jones] its fleeting, and its loud its distracting yeah. [jones] yok when people arent paying attention. And whensthat you are writing atters so much to you no one is ever, i hope, gonna hold a gun to my headway. And say we need another poem the poems come because i need them here. [smith] got it. [jones] so whaver comes next, things are gonna have to quiet down. Ll write again, in whatever privacy im able to construct. [smith] i thinks someone should make a movie of this book. At[jones] ok [smith] as my reaction. [jones] well [smith] so lets end [smith] lets see if that jams. laughing congratulations saeed, thank you so much. [jones] thank you so much. [smieed jones, give him a big hand. Good, thank you. applauding mith] wed love to have you join us in the studio. Visit our website at klru. Org overheard to find invitations to interviews, q as with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. [jones] so for six years, i worked at Buzzfeed News in new york city where i lived until recently. [jones] so for six years, i worked at Buzzfeed News i edited, i ran a fellowship program. I was the first lgbt editoe. I started in january013 so it was right before those Crucial Supreme Court decisions, s i did all of that, i iting, assigning, reporting, writing. [smith] yeah. [announcrd] funding for overhith evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, a texas Government Affairs consultancy, claire andstuart, and by laura and john beckworth, hobby family foundation. bright music robert President Trump purges his ranksnd exerts his power. President trump were drainings thewamp. I just never knew how deep the swamp was. Robert thentelligence community is rocked as the president installs loyalists. And the Justice Department faces new pressure as pardons areis ed. President trump im actually the chief Law Enforcement officer of the country. Robert and looms President Trump roger has a very good chance of exoneration. Robert and in las vegas, tgl es comes off as mayor bloomberg t takes stage. And senator sanders rises. The best known socialist in the country happens to be a millionaire w t