With Margaret Hooveris made possible by. Additional fundi iprovided by. Corporate funding is provided by. Michael moore, welcome to firing line. Or havingyou so much me here. Youre an Academy Awardwinning filmmaker, and more than that, you created a new genre of documtary films that really drove the National Discourse out key issues in our country, from the iraq war to guns to healthcare. And youve now started a new podcast um e with michael moore. Right. I dont want people to forget that in 2016, early, you called who was going to win the president ial election. Yeah, sadly. I never wanted to be more wrongi but i limichigan, so i saw what was going on. Wand so, i dont know four or five months before the election, i just said, donald trump is going to be the next president , and hes going to win by winning michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania. And i first said this on theil maher show, and i was booed by the audience. Im gonna show the clip. S heexactly when you said it. Lets ta a look. Im sorry to have to kind of be the buzzkill here so early on, but i think trump is going to win. I im sorry. You know what . Boo if you want. I am glayoure saying it. I dont want to say i no, no. The enemy is complacency. So, why did you know . caus of michigan, and i saw trump signs everywhere, d i saw no hillary signs. And just the way people in michigan were so angry about the last 20 or 30 years of losing all the industrial jobs, or most nobody in washingt listening to them. They didnt so much like trump as aerson people had a lo of problems with him but they wanted to throw a molov cocktail into the system that had made their lives so difficul so, i dont know if people are listening now, but you have a prediction for 2020 . Well, i can just say do you have a prediction for0 i dont know if its so much a prediction, but, again, because im paying attention to where people are at, i think its very possle that trump he lost the popular vote to hillary by 3 million votes. I think hell lose thpopular vote again to whoever the democrat is by million to 5 million votes and could still win the Electoral College and get ur more years. Most of the polling, if you look at michigan right now, suggests that trump is not going to win it again, ent. East at this m yes. In part because of what we did in 18. We really blew out the republicans. We removed all of them from lansing, from the state capital. The p four positions were al now theyre all des,ars ago. And they are a female governor, a black lieutenant gernor, a lesbian attorney general, and a single mom whos the secretary of state. We removed no offense, white guys, but we removed all the white men from power and replaced thewith the majority female, people of youngain 70 adults. So, no offense to white guys, but youre supporting Bernie Sanders. Yes, im not a selfhating white guy. I just i dont want the white men who are watching is, i know its feeling like the women are taking over. You know, its its oy, guys. Its okay. Were gonna be okay. Women ke us. Mostly. But youre supporting Bernie Sanders. Yes, i am. In 2016, you had this theory that was the last stand of the angry white man. And its one of the re that you thought that trump would win. And you wrote, from the whperspective of an angry ite man that. How much of a sense do you have that this is still at play . I i this very much at play. I think especially guys guys ezgrew up with are like, you know, weve held this power for 200plus yrs. How is it that, on our watch, that this could happen . And i think it frightens people, and they shouldn frightened. You know, its its the country will be a bettere plth more women in charge, with more women running things. Its just its look around the world in those countries where women have more power, both political power, corporate power, all kinds of power things are just a little bit better. Theyre a little kinder. There was a feud between bernie supportersek and warren supporters aroundio this queof whether a woman could be elected in 2020. Right. Nd here is some disagreement between the candidates about who said what. So what did you think out this feud between Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders this week . It was very sad. And, again, i know her, and ive had her in my films, and i i ive always loved her. And so im just the focus has to be about trump. M has to be about the sys at gave us trump, to make sure and the fact that we would be talking about this and ive known bernie since the 80s so theres no way he said anything like the way its been reported. I meanto be honest, the night that that happened, my first thought was, they will mark this day, january 13th, as the day donaldrump was reelected. Because once again, the left couldnt get itals, together, couldnt figure out instead of so happy to get right in there and fight each other like this. And im like, when are we ever going to learn . This is on us. This is not on the russians. Its not on the republicans. Its on the Democratic Party for not getting its act together and not using its head. You know Elizabeth Warren well. Shes been in your films. I mean, you all have sung from the same song sheet for years, as well. Why do you support bernie over her . Because bernie has been the same consistent fiter for equal rights, against war, civil rights since the 1960s. And has she not been consistent . No. Well, no, shes been a republican. I mean, shes talked about this. So, she was a republican to 1996. Gainstthats the hit her . Thats why you dont support her now . No, no, no. But you said that no, she hasnt beeistent since the time she was young. She was a young conservative republican, which i dont hold that against her. Hillary ran the republican. Goldwater girl. Yeah, she was a goldwater girl. So, no, you have to be you know, i can i ill tell you the truth i actually, as a freshman in high school, went doortodoor for nixon beuse he wna end the vietnam war. I was so antiwar, there was no way humphrey, he could be elected. D so, i didnt like nixon, but i thought, well, he has said publicly he has a plan to end the war within six months. Good enough for me. But why bernie, not warren . At you know think they should do . I think they should they should go back into a room and talk again cause they a friends. And they should agree, whoever wins the most delegates by the end of the primaries is going to be the candidate, anthe other one gives their delegates to that person, and then one is the president ial candidate who has the most delegates and the other is the Vice President ial candidate. Lete ask about the Electoral College. Yeah. Ive heard you say youre for eliminati absolutely, yes. So, help me understand then, if we got rid of the Electoral College, how would we be paying any pennsylvania, or win right now . What youre saying is that if we didnt have the Electoral College, we would just be americans are so selfi, theyre only going to consider whats good for new yorknd and l. A. Eattle. Or if im a candidate, im gonna go campaign in the populatiocenters in order to get the most votes. Right now, they dont go ever campaign in california or new york, and they never get a visit. Ju that i wrong. Its just its just not well, thats not true. Every single candidate comes through new york city every week and twice on sunday. Well, because itthe media capital. And its the money capital, so they come here to get money. And they go to silicon valleo foy, and they go to l. A. They dont go to schenectady. They dont go to schenectady. Thats true. And they dont go to grass valley, california, so. I guess the point im making, though, is, doesnt the Electoral College, because it forces us to reckon with lessrepresented parts of the country. That was not the reason it was set up. But itone of the effects now, i agree. Slave states, so they could count their slaves as 3 5 of a human so they could get larger congressional representation. We have a storied past. No youthis. But the effect of it now is that its causing us to focus on voters that might otherwise easily be forgotten. Eah. Well, i can s, fr my end of the political spectrum, we dont forget people. Were actually about remembering the people thaare forgotten and fighting for them. Well, hillary didnt even go well, i dont consider her when i say my side of the fence. I dont i mean she was the democratic oominee i wrote in myonce. And you voted for her. Best republican prtnton was the we had since abraham lincoln. That still doesnt answer my question about thel electollege. Which is whats the question . The question is, should i get rid of it . Yes. I would get rid. But if you got rid of it, i an, doesnt it sve a purpose now in forcing us to reckon with voters who are forgotten and left behind . Who are these forgott voters . The white workingclass vote that you predicted would vote for trump. Okay. That hillary and the democratic par forgot about. Okay. But people and i know you dont claim that part of the Democratic Party, but there is systemically isnt the electoracollege serving a purpose . Listen, i watch thehow, so i know you know that the real footten people in this country, the people that dont still have the power, that dt have the voice women, people of color, young peop. These are the forgotten people. Ese are the people who are struggling. On 7. 25 an hour . You know . Whenever they say workingclass, you always think of tt white, workingclass nchbucket guy, but the average workingclass the average person. But its regional, and it depends on what part of theyo countrre in. And africanamerican and latino. These are the forgotten people. And, you know, what if some white people its not just forgotten people. I mean, south rolina people go south carolina, where the africanamerican population gets a say early in the electoral process. Right . Were gonna agree to disagreeal on the electollege. Yeah, yeah. Ouri want to turn filmmaking. Id like to ask you about your documentary work, which includes 11 featurelength documentary films. All in color. One for which you won an Academy Award bowling for columbine. Yes. In and id like to reayou a quote about someyou id after your breakout 1989 okay. Me. You said, no documentary is in linear, chronologicer. If you are looking for that, watch cspan. Right. What liberties do you take when youre making a documentary and telling a story . Ff what is the dierence between king a documentary and tellg a story and, say, writing a column for a newspaper . Thats a good point because i always have tried to explain that my documentaries arlike an oped. But you cannot write an oped foan the New York Times have things in there that are wrong. You cant have facts in your oped at are not correct. They will factcheck that. So i make these oped films where im presenting e facts as they are, but then my opinion the facts are right. My opinion may not be right. I think its right cause its my opinion, but i may not be right. You have to admit there are people who he disputed many of the the facts in your documentaries. Well, people dont like the facts, and so then they dispute them. The fact that the ciaam trained bin laden, for example. That was factchecked. Yeah, the cia c no, t funded the mujahideen, but they didnt train osama bin laden. Big difference. Well, he was one of the and you cant get around that by saying, we gave money to the mujahideen, which hes a part of and one of the leaders of, and say, oh, no, we had nothino to do wima bin laden. Well, i dont know. The factcheckers came back and saidhat was a stretch. Hes an unintended consequence of theact that thats closer f thats closer t. Before you assassinate the top general of a country, you should pause and think about the unintended consequences of that. Before you invade iraq, whh had nothing to do with 9 11, you know, you should stop d think abouthat. And the consequences of that. And so, naturally, wput out a film like fahrenheit 9 11, i mean, everything theyve at me with but the fact of the matter is, is thapeople dont w with helping to fu verying to do thing that eventually gave us 9 11. So, i think, getting back to how you choose to tell stories, id like to show you a clip from an original firing line that aed in 1995 with william f. Buckley jr. And another Academy Award winner, Charlton Heston,ho also appears in bowling for columbine. Lets take a look. Okay. All right. As lenin lenin presciently observed in goodness i think it was like 1919 very long ago. Rehe said, the moving pic is the most powerful tool ever invented to shape the mind of man. Ry smart fella. From which you well, not all that smart. [ bo laugh ] fr which you conude what . From which i conclude thatt can be dangerous. People believe somehow what they see in the moving image, in a curious way, often more than what religious clerics and even politicians tell them. If they see itmovie, it somehow is true. Is the moving image the most powerful tool invented to shape mans ideas . I dont know about that, but i think if yve seen Police Academy 3, you know the dangerous impact a movie like that can have on our young people when they watch things like that or transformers orat er. Well, i mean, im being facetious, but, yes. Of coue movies are powerful. Look, editing is part of how you create a documentary, gh because thats your opportunity to opine, right . Ha and to the message. Yes. So how do you think about that editing process as a documentary filmmaker . In the same way youre thinking about it. You are going to edit this conversation in order for it to tell a good story, m e sense, to cut out the this or that or whatever. We as artistsll have the opportunity to present the story in the way at we want to present it and so when i present a film of mine, like, lets say, bowling for columbine. So i have these strong feelings about guns and how we shouldea beng with it. And you look into why ameri has such a violent culture and why were more violent than canada and all this yeah. Nd even countries like canada, who have guns they have hunting tons of hunting guns in canada, and th dont shoot each other. And i wanted to explore, why is that . Because the canadianarent better than us. Theyve got the same 23 chromosomes in each of so why us . Es that we have. Why do we do this . All right. So, can i give you an example ot the g and ask you, sir, how you made the choices . Yeah, yeah, sure. So lets watch a clip from bowling for columbine, which takes place in littleton, colorado, which is where i went to high school. You talk about h the nra came to colorado 10 days after the massacre. And lets wah how nra president Charlton Heston, who we just saw onli firin, is portrayed. So he shot the girl, and he shot her in the head in front of me. And he shothe black kid because he was a black. I have only five words for ndu from my cold, dead [ cheers and applause ] just 10 days after the columbine killings, despite the pleas of a community in mourning, Charlton Heston came to denver and held a large progun rally for the National Rifle association. Good morning. Thank you all for coming, and thank you forti supp your organization. All right. So the question there is, w did you make that choice in editing . Because the clip of Charlton Heston saying, over my cold, dead hands, actually came from an nra rally a year later, in north carolina. So how do you gonna begin the Charlton Heston section of the movie. So, we have a generic Charlton Heston thing that we know that people know cause theyve sn that from my cold, dead nds everywhere. So were gonna set up the fact that were now gonna go to Charlton Heston. Theres your iconic video clip of heston. And then i say, 10 days later, and then i show the billboard in denver, and now i show him there 10 days later do you worry that it leaves people with the impression that he said, from my cold, dead hands 10 days later . He always said that. W in every it just wasnt in the clip package that we could get. Except for that he say it 10 days later in colorado, and it leaves you with the impression that he did. Well, iont think so. I think it because that part of him at the convention is after that. That part, that its hard to explain this if you dont leaves people with thethat it impression that he said that in colorado 10 days after the columbe shooting . It leaves people with the impression that Charlton Heston believed very strongly in the cond amendment and so strongly that that he would always say this from my cold, dead hands. I guess the question that i have for you is, you know, what about people who arent familiar with Charlton Heston . What about people who didnt know he always said that ande they wft with the impression thatd be le somedy who didnt know who santa claus was. Thats not true. You know, itd be like, all of a sudden, if i showed someag foof santa going, ho ho ho and hes on the sleigh, and then you say, well, you know,yo went from there, him on the sleigh, but then, the next sleigh he was on was in idaho. D, you know, people arnna be confused cause theyre gonna think, on that other sleigh, when he was actually in oregon. I really disagree. Yre trying to split a ha on this. I disagree, because heres why. So many people watch that film, it won an Academy Award, and they were familiarizing themlves with the issues and the details of columbine. They may not have known that he said that. Frkly, i grew up in a republican family, was a member of the nra when i was 12 and id never seen him say that. You never heard charltoneston say, from my cold, dead hands . As thatis slogan. I hadnt. What would be wrong in that is if i showed him ldinup that gun and then dubbed in from you know, so you didnt see his lips moving, love this gun so much, i sleep with it every night. You know, obviously, that would be wrong. So youre saying he said it, and it doesnt matter that you said i he saall e time. The bad thing would be is if you put something in there that he didnt s. Thats what he said all the time. You made some headlines scently because you tweeted an apology to ir Supreme LeaderAyatollah Khamenei for the u. S. Sike against general qasesoleimani. Mhmm. You wrote, i deeply regret this is according to t goognslation, because you wrote it in farsi. On behalf of a manhe violence most americans never voted for. Avoid power. Sincere man, michael moore, american citizen why did you feel the nd to apologize to Ayatollah Khamenei . Because i do not want the assassination of a human being done in my name with my tlars. I want them to know in iran that we americans do not do that. We are not at war with iran. We have made life so miserable for the iranian people since 1953 when our cia and the british mi6 overthrew and helped to stage the coup that removed the democratically electeder prime minif iran. We are not a good player here. And they have every right to be upset. That doesnt justify anything the ayatollahs done. I have friends i have film whos under house arrest. Right. And hes probably lucky to be under house arrest andot actually in jail. Yeah, only because i and other members of the academy here, in this country, have organized support around him is he probably not in thats why hes not in prison. No, no. This is iran, just like a whole lot of other counies, do not do well by their people. Ayatollah kheneigood think that leader or is just to his citizens or was democratically elected himself, or. No. They do have democratic elections. They do have a well, no, now you gave a look like, oh, no, come on. Y they do. T have democratic elections. They have opposition parties. The year i was born the ayatollahs not elected, though. The the year and neither is trump. But trump came to power through a constitutional process at weve all agreed upon which is different from Ayatollah Khamenei. I never agreed to thi provision in the constution. Im against it, and i will work to get rid of it. Okay. One of the thingsto you also saihe ayatollah, i want you not to respond violently but to act bravely instead. We will take care of this inhe senate or at the ballot box nonviolently. In other words, well take care of trump. Dont worry about trump. L weke care of it in the senate. The senates impeachment trial is about to start with. Yes. We have learned t will begin nextsday. Yes. Do you believe there is a chance that trump could be convicted by the senate . That we will take care of it in the senate . Ei ly enough, i am that kind of optimist that believes that, of the 53 republ trump can keep the majority 33 of them in support of him. I believe that there are 20 republicans who could v possibe to remove him. That could happen. It could. O theres a sliva chance if the john bolton testimo shows people what elthere besides the ukrainian phone call. And we dont know hell be allowed to testify. I want to end on one fun thing. I should mention somethi that surprised me when i was watching another pbs program yes. Y louis gates jr. Skip gates, who interviewed you and conducted thorough study of your genealogy. And what he discovered, michael moore, was that. Lets take a look at what he discovered. B wen told that were 0 irish. I understand that. I started with michael moore. Moving back on his paternal line, we came to susanna and henry hoover. Theyre michaels thirdgreagrandparents. We found them in indiana in 181u listed in the s of a group known as the whitewater friends. Hry hoover, as it turns out, is related to my greatgrandfather herbert hoer. Now were no serious genealogists at firing line, but it appears that you and i are sixth cousins once removed. Yes. So now people right now their screen cause theyret ng to figure out whate. Happened h i know. Let me just say, obviously your branch the family ended up okay. Ours was therwas probably too much moonsne. Well, theyre all quakers. I dont know if any of them drink. Actually, thats true yes, thats the part of our past is that we, our ancestors they were pacif pacifists. They were abolitionists. They were abolitionists. And when he told me i was related to one of the 45 president s, i was, like, or, hey, maybe obama. W, kennedy you know, hes got the irish wing. So heres what you tweeted when you found out it was Herbert Hoover. You said. Okay. I will say this, that since i wrote that tweet, ive done a little more resear on my fourth cousin, president hoov, and what have you learned about Herbert Hoover . Ive learned that he was lets just say he was the ma e the right guy in the wrong place at the wng time. Well, wheit comes to the great depression. Yes, im talking about the great depression, because ere were so many other things about him and i was lking to you before the show, and you really know the history of our family. The great humanitarian who kept 1 3 of europes population4 alive between nd 1923. Yeah. This is an extraordinary story of somebody who pioneered international humanitarianood relief. Right. Heres my question to you. How come i havent been invited to any of the reunions . Youre coming now. Youre coming now. Igonna make all sorts of relatives turn over in their graves. Yes. Its something at least next thanksgiving. It should be a very interesting thanksgiving between uhoovers. That would be fantast. Fantastic. I hope youll come back, michmoore. No, thank you. And its an honor to be on this show. I watched as a kid when buckley was the host, and i i always thought it was impoant to hear the other side. Fantastic. Michael moore, thank you. Thank you. Ou so much. Firing line with Margaret Hoover is made possible by. Al additiunding is provided by. Corporate funding is provided by. Youre watching pbs. Hello, everyone, and welcome to amanpour and company. Hereshats coming up. Most parents would rather poke themselves in the eye with a fork than talk to their children about porn. Author of the definitive gue book, boys sex. Will not return to criminality. Tenderness is the antidote to toxic masculinity. Founder of Home Boy Industries brings hope where its rarely seen. The idea behind the blue zones is to reverse longevity. Lessons on lo