Transcripts For KQED PBS NewsHour 20240713

That they are losing something. That tyre being attacked. Rds all this stuff thats, for the reco, not real. Brangham all that and more on tonights pbs newshour. Major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by Consumer Cellular believes that wireless plans should reflect the amount of talk, text and data that you use. We offer a variety of no contract wireless plans for nsumercellular. Tvong ine a and with the ongoing support of these institutions this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. Urand by contributions to bs thank you. Om viewers like you. Brangham on the record the public phase of thqu impeachment y escalates. Lisa desjardins explains how a clearer picturis emerging of the Trump Administrations approach to ukraine from those at the center of the storm. Desjardins at the capil, the impeachment battle, for now, is on paper. But no less intense as today, committees released transcripts they are Gordon Sondland, the u. S. Ambassador to the European Union and kurt volker,ormer both were lead offls for. Ukraine policy. In the 739 pages released today, among the headlines sondland revised a critical piece of testimony about whether the u. S. Tied nearly 400 million in d money to specific demands from ukraine. Yesterday, sondland filed this, saying he now remembers telling a top ukrainian official that resumption of millions in u. S. Aid would likely not occur until ukraine provided the corruption statement. The u. S. Wanted, saying ukraine would investigate the 2016 election and the Energy Company which hired hunter biden. A second headline sondland insisted the president himself firmly did not want a quid pro e o. And re key point the continued influence of President Trumps attorn Rudy Giuliani whose name appears more than 150 times in sonands testimony. Sondland is a pivomil characte, ted by mr. Trump to be the ambassador to the e. U. In 2017 and has previously owned Boutique Hotel chain on the west coast. And he is a longtime g. O. P. Donor who had given one Million Dollars to mr. Trumps inaugural fund. While ukraine is not in the European Union, sondland has said the president tped him to work on the issue. He says there were three amigos working on that policy, himself, Energy Secretary rick perry, and volker, whose career path sharply contrasts with the other two. He is a threedecade diplomat who has served under democrati and republican president s president george w. Bush named him to be the u. S. Representative to nato. And in 2017, President Trump named him to be the envoy helping lead ukraine policy. He resigned in september. Todays transcripts show volker arguing against a biden investigation and trying to win ruer a president who deeply died ukraine. Former ukraian lawmaker serhii leshenko, who worked with volker for years, said he sees ato diplomat tryintraddle sharp politics and good policy. E wthat kurt volker was ecying to maneuver to be e as the special envoy and at the same time to be e cepted by whuse, and my understanding, he decided to give what trump was looking for desjardins overall, democrats say the transcripts only bolster their ce that mr. Trump withheld military aid and other support for ukraine to pressure president zelenskyy into opening investigations that but republicans haistedally. Democrats have selectively leaked and withheld information, in order to malign the present. What all of us want is a fair process. Desjardins meantime, the today Mick Mulvaney got a request from the investigate wmmittees for testimony later thek. Thus far, cabinet officials have declined these kinds of requests, as did two other trump individuals wh. I will say im pretty sure how it is likely toned. If it were today, i dont think theres any question it would not lead tie removal. One thing mcconell doesnt know is how long any sense of what these transcripts mean for the impeachment inquiry im joined by our ownick schifrin and Lisa Desjardins who have been closely fog the vestigation. Welcome back to you both. Thank you again for 54ing poring through all of these transcripts. Ut lets talk ahe changes sondland made to his testimony. How significant are they . What are they . E let me use a prop to explain. This is full sondlands testimony. Thats your day today. This is our dayoday, part of it. Of this, its really these five pages were talking about, his revisions. It speaks to wis idea ther there was a quid pro quo. Lets look at what he changed aire. First of all, he before today, he did not recall any conversations wheres tying aid to these investigations of the bidens in 2016. His revision, however, now, he says he does remember talking with a leading ukrainian, really the contact point for president zelensky. And he also said now he does remember specifically telling the zelensky aide thaaid was unlikely unless they maidng statement sahat ukraine would investigate 2016 and also the bidens. So this really spaks to t idea of whether the u. S. Was demanding something from ukine in exchange for aid money. Gordon sondlands testimony is he personally did tell them that. Thats a pretty big revision today to see. Nick, zoom out a little bit more. Tell little bit more about sondland. He was a sirpt of the president , as lisa reported, a big g. O. P. Donor. Hes bane defender of the president all along as well. Supportive of the president , defender of the president , and someone who had access to the iresident, really the only one weve been tal about who regularly talked to the president. He testified that he talked ttho president three times specifically about this, and that each of those times, the president did not mention Vice President biden. An osondland was asked at point in this story by another diplomat, hey this seems crazy. Is the president really withholding aid before ukraine investigates biden . So he called the president , aawd we s what he said on that phone call with the president. He said, asked the president an openunderstanded question what do you want from ukraine. I he said, want nothing. No quid pro quo i want zelensky to do the right thing. And said what does that mean . And he said i want him to do what he ran on and that is the end of the conversation. That is what the president was saying tod q. There was id pro quo at all because the president told sondland this, and not only, that the ukrainians didnt know that the president had actually withhel any of this military aid. And thats where the timeline thisa comes in is so important. One month after that phone call, we see sondland now admitted that he did tell theukinians, and thats why that revision and the timeline of that revision is so important. Lisa, about this timeline at nick is talking about, thats Something Else our team stticed in these transcripts, some integ timingrelated issues there. Sondland says very t specificalt for a long geme what, he knew was there a ral corruption investigation. We wanted ukraine to be less corrupt, that that was the push. But he says in his testimony lets look that in fact, something changed, as he knew taround august, and that that thg that changed was the general corruption concern became concern about 2016 and burisma. So this idea of changing how ukraine operates, makin making s corrupt, shifted into a specifi concern abese two investigations. Now, as to timeline that nick is talk about, whats amazing about all this is that that same day that he himself, sondland, says he told the ukrainians, hey, we have to now get these investigations that he says are now front and center proof from you that youre doing them, thats the same day that idvice prt pence was meeting with president zelensky in poland. Now, who know whether mike pence knew anything or not, but this is the reason that conversation happened. And we see h. R. A key aide becoming more and more aware that someone wants these investigations front and center. And he says this to iathe ukra on that day. So interesting. Nick, lets step back again to ambassador volker. He was worklying closith ukrainian officials throughout this process. What did he say about what they were doing with regards to these corruption investigations. He makes the same distinction that lisa was just makg that sondland makes, between vanilla torruption, and lets call i not so vanilla corruption. The vanilla corruption fucialg is what the u. S. Has been going after the last five years. The obama administration, the Trump Administration, all want ukraine to tackle endemic corruption. Under the business that effort waled by Vice President biden but it continued and had the me targets under the Trump Administration. What changed was ry giuliani. Is was not vanilla. Ha wanted an investigation into whether ukraine ed into the d. N. C. In 2016, which the u. S. Intelligence Community Says is tet what happened. And he winvestigation into burisma, this Ukrainian Company where huer biden was on the board. What volker testified today s the ukrainians who were telling juul this, who were kind of whispering into hisar and egging him on, that they werese serving, that they actually were hoping to appear important and telling juuwhat he thought they wanted, what they thought he wanted to hear in order to somehow save their jobs or be ruseen as useful by thep testified vice pre bidenolker was not corrupt. The ukrainians whoorked with dismim hunter bind, the ukrainian corruption, thats what everyone wanted investigated, until juul stepped in. And it ended up tha we had this temporary hold on military aid and were investigating this and talkintalking about this right. Its a pictuy of m outside forces manipulating u. S. Policy, not necessarily not the diplomats in this testimony. Lisa desjardins, nick schifrin, thank you agor getting us up to speed on all of this. Brangham now we want to turn to how the Trump Administration is reacting to this latest release transcripts. Im joined by our White House Correspondent yamiche alcindor. Yamiche, so this is the second day of transcripts that have come out. I know you have been tracking how the from the hasbeen reacting to this. And i also understand you have been in touch with gordonth sondlandgentleman we have been hearing about from these leasa and nick, his attorney as well. What you can tell bus their reactions to all this . The white house is transcripts really prove two President Trump should not be a inquiry. F an impeachment let me read to you what White House Press secretary Stephanie Grisham put out a couple of ipnutes ago. Both trans released today foough there is even lesevidence this illegitimate spoovment sham previous thought. She goes on to say Gordon Sondland, didnt know, Gordon Sondland being the e. U. Ambassador he didnt know the actual details of this military ukraine. Held up by of course, his revisions today Say Something different. They say hwas actual alone an official tuke ukraine officials e out that military aid being tied to vestigation of the bidens or that wanted the investigation of the bidens. White houseve th pointing to kurt volker, who was the u. S. Envoy to ukraine. And they say that essentially he said ukrainians didnt know that this money was being held up, so there couldnt be a quid pro quo. Usw we know that ukraine knew as early as athat this was something that was holding up had money, this investigation of the bidens that President Trump wanted. Its important to also point to kind of somefl conting facts in these transcripts. These transcripts really are about both parties booing able to pick and choose what they want to make their party look good. If you look at kind of what Gordon Sondland said to t investigators im going to tead another exchange, i ified it would be improper to do that thats military aid being connected to the investigation of the biden. And illeg, right . Im not a lawer, but i assume so. Then kurt volker says, i was surprised that was s en he lking about the call between President Trump and the president of ukraine. Were you troubled at all by what you read . Yes. Aslet white house is essentially pointing to the testimony saying they prove our case, democrats s are saying actually it proveids the pret was involved in a quid pro quo, and Gordon Sondlands attorney essentially told me he didnt want to go too far past what Gordon Sondlandut put but he said essentially read into this that gordonle to sondland was really trying to correct himself and was really trying to say he had some sort of ulterior motive. Yamiche, i know you have been track thei presdent since he basement president. These accumulated transcripts do give us a windointo how he runs his Foreign Policy. Iewonder what sense youre getting of the this has of the president s policy and the people enacting that policy. This really shows that President Trump really takes Foreign Policy personally. In both transcripts hes heard as saying that ukr was filled with bad people that tried to thaij down and wre really trying to hurt his 2016 president ial campaign. Democrats say thats a debunked claim. We have a essentially a president saying this country was tryi to go after me and as a result i dont like these people. We know the president has been railing against this. Has he said anything about these hast recent developments . The presidenbeen making his case to the American Public in allies. Just yesterday, he was in kentucky, trying to get people to support governor there who is up fore rlection tonight. Heres what he had to say the bidens got rich whil america was robbed. And let me tell you, the fake news will not put it in. Whats unsubstantiated . He is on tape doinga real dave quiser. There no evidence of joemuch. Biden doing any wrongdoing, but bats pretty much all you can say about that, theres no evidence of what the president was just saying. All right, yamiche alcindor, as always, thank you. Brangham in the days other news, three american women and six of the children have been brutally killed in an ambush in northern mexico. They were members of a Breakaway Group from the church of jesus christ of latterday saints. The attack took place monday on a dirt road between chihuahua and sonora states, about 75 miles south of the u. S. Border. Amateur video showed one of their burned vehicles. Mexican officials are investigating the possibility this was a case of mistaken identity, given the number of violent confrontations among warring drug gangs in that area. President trump spoke to the mexican president by phone today, and offered unspecified u. S. Help to ensure the perpetrators face justice. Gubernatorial and legislative elections are taking place in four states today, and theyre erseen by many as a bellweor 2020. In kentucky, republivernor matt bevin will try to hold off democratic attorney general andy beshear. Mississippis Gubernatorial Race pits republican Lieutenant Governor tate reeves against democratic attorney general jim anod. In virginia, republican control of the state Legislature Ra up for grabs, while dem in new jerseys state legislature are looking to keep their supermajorities. Iran announced plans today to violate yet another aspect of the 2015 nuclear pact. President Hassan Rouhani said gtehran will start inject uranium gas into more than a thousa centrifuges at its fordo nuclear facility. Move would make fordo a active atomic site, rather than the Research Facility iran agreed it would be, as part of the accord with world powers. translated ware aware of their sensitiveness towards the fordo facility and those centrifuges. At the same time, we cannot tolerate unilateral fulfillment of our commitments and no commitment from their side. Brangham president rouhani said the action is reversible if europe offers relief from u. S. Sanctions. The u. Withdrew from the todays announcement came a day twice as many advas running centrifuges as before. That machinery is key to enriching nuclear material. Yemens government and separatist forces signed a powersharing deal today to halt months of infighting in re countrys rn south. Coalition and the tistovernment Southern Transitional council signed theaudibrokered pact during a ceremony in riyadh. The deal would pave the way for a new cabinet low yemens exiled president to return to his country. In southern iraq today, Security Forces shot and killed three antigoverent demonstrators. At least 13 people have died in protestrelated violence across the country since yest in baghdad today, protesters massed on a bridge tblock access to key government stildings. They occupieets and set up barricades, but stressed it was Security Forces inciting the violence. translated they are ceshing demonstrators toward viol the protests are peaceful. They killed protesters last night, offended people and pushed them toward violence. Until the last second our revolution is peaceful, not aimed at violence. Violence generates a violent reaction. Brangham iraqi Security Forces have killed more than 260 antigovernment protesters since october 1. Man is in federal custody forado his role in a bomb plot that targeted a synagogue south of denver. Undercover f. B. I. Agents who arrested him friday said he supoused antisemitic and white emacist beliefs. He appeared in federal court yesterda domestic terrorism. Th he could face up to 20 years in prison i well get ide look at the White Nationalist Movement Later an the program. Jury selection boday in the criminal trial of President Trumps longtime confidant, roger stone. He arrived at the washington courthis morning to face charges stemming from former special counsel Robert Muellers tevestigation into russian erence in the 2016 election. Stone is accused of lying to congress, witness tampering and obstruction of justice. E pled not guilty to those charges in janua if convicted on all counts, he could face up to 20 years in prison. Stocks finished relatively flat on wall street today. The Dow Jones Industrial average gained 30 points to a new record closing high of 27,492. The nasdaq rose a point, and the s p 500 slipped three. And a passing to note acclaimed novelist ernest j. Gaines has died. He was born in segregated loui his work largely captured black struggle and perseverance in the precivil rights era south. Gaines received the macarthuor genius grantis 1993 novel a lesson before dying. He also penned the autobiography of miss jane pittman and a gathering of old men. Ernest gaines was 86 years old. Still to come on the newshour ine world watches with mou anxiety as the u. S. Formally emthdraws from the paris climate agt. Thy the governor of oklahoma signed off on e largest singleday prisoner release in u. S. History. When in doubt, pick c the growing movement against standardized tests in College Admissions. And much more. Brangham the timing is los on no one. The president notified the rest of the world again yesterday that one year from now, the day after the 2020 elections, the u. S. Will formally withdraw from the paris climate agreement. Thats the voluntary global accord signed in 2015 by nearly 200 nations to cut Greenhouse Gases to slow the warming of our planet. The u. S. Is the second largest carbon emitter in the world, behind china. Pl fact, it was american acy, negotiated during president obamas tenure, that was crucial to getding china and to reduce their emissions. But President Trump, who has hacked the idea of Climate Changelong maintained the agreement was a bad one, one onat would stunt americas ic growth. So lets look at the consequences of this decision. Todd stern was the chief climate negotiator for president obama. Ithes now a sior fellow thworld Resources Institute and the brookings institution. Welcome back to the newshour. Thank pou so much. Sident trump said a year ago that he was going to do this and standing in front of the white house, he has spent much of his presdency defanging president obamas rules that curbed emissions from u. S. Sources. So how big of a deals it that President Trump made this next formal step yesterday and saidal were out . Look, i think its a big deal. Maybe i just give you one backwardlooking comment, which is it was crazy for the president to do for President Trump to do this, right. This waes agreement that we negotiated, it was an excelnt reement for everybody, particularly excellent for the United States. We got just about everythng we wanted this agreement. It is it is completely solid agreement supprted by virtually all of american business. I dont think youd find five c. E. O. S out of the fortune 500 who are against the paris agreement, not to mention the military, not to mention the intel community, and so forth. The other thing is ist prote the american people. If theres one obligation the president has, its to take care ofeople, to prot people from harm. And ill tell you, whether this was in a blue state or a red state, Climate Change is an equalopportunity destroyer. And instead, weve walked ay. So i think its a big deal to take thextra step that hes taken now. It will pull the united state all thway out of the agreement. It has to lay over for one year, but that will be the effect when it happens. And it willa dge the capacity of the world overall to respond to Climate Change, which paris is a big part of. The sense that i have read from 19 people who study from many people who study this, with ge to. S. Out and its ple cut its emissions out, china and india the next two e bigts, or that list theyre really pledges. Have to step up their do you have any sense that thats actually going to happen . I mean, we know chinag is makin exphiewfs agreement investments in green technology, but do you have any sense that they are literally going to reduce their emissions in a meaningful way . Honestly i think wl, e answer is i think they can reduce their emissions in agf mean way. But i think the absence of the United States makes it that much harder. You might say, well, they will see the suz out, weve got to do much more. Political or diplmaticrks in a environment. When president xi jinping knew that he was dealing with President Trump all the time and it was a tiptop priority for president obama and e u. S. Was going to raise this with the punese all the time, that what i might call sal teary pressure, the righ kind of pressure on the chinese, and on the indians, also, with president modi. So it makes a big difference when the u. S. Is there fully kind of pressure on. The right and by correspondingly, when the u. S. Is not there, you see diminished focus. And i think we see diminished focus at the top levels of the Chinese Government now for sure. I go to china every year, once or twice, and its not the sam. Its not the same when they than the president of the United States doesnt care about this theres also, even china and india separate, even the other socalled enlightened nations who say that th are still in the paris accord, they are not even meeting their agreements necessarily, their commitments to cut emissions. So given that, where do you get this sense f optimism that i do rise to this challenge . T we will well, look, i i sort of am never exactly on the optimism or pessimism side of the scale. I try to keep my eye on the a sort of sober look at it. Look, the u. S. And the world can do what we need to do. We have a huge task to get to, essentially somethingarike netzeron by 2050. 30 years away. Right. Right now, the world gets o 80 f its primary energy from fossil fuels. The u. S. Just slightly less than, that but almot that its a huge task which has to get under way. I mean, it is under way to some extent now. But ito has t move much more quickly. The thing about Climate Change now is directional sprg not enough. Speed and scale serving. Thats just the so can we do that from the point atioiew an innov yes. From the point of view of policy . Yes. From the point of view of paying for it . Yes, we can do all of those things. Theres one agreement thats missing and that is e adequate political will around the world. That is most important thing. If wne got president committed to this issue in the job, that would make a big fference. But, i mean, its a complicated problem. Gl. Todd stern, former u. S. Climate negotiator, thank you very much. Thanks so much. Brangham 462 people walked out of prison in oklahoma yesterday. It s people reuniting with their families. It came st days after republican Governor Kevin Stitt signed off on the recommendation of the states pardon and parole board to commute their sentences. It was the largest singleday hammutation in u. S. History. Oklahoma, whicranked as the state with the highest incarceration rate in the country, inow looking at other criminal justice reforms. Governor kevin stitt joins me now. Governor, welcome to the newshour. K you very much for being here. Can you just take us back yesterday . Those looked like some really joyous celebrations gog at that prison. What was that scene like for you . You know, it was it was really fantastic. My wife and i were there, and just to welcome all these pple across our state, but that ecific womens prison, them leaving their past behind, and getting a Second Chance on life, the joy, the tears, the family, the hugs, reuniting with their families. It was just an amazing feeling. You said to them, tthat gathered group of women who had just been released, its up to you now to make sure you dont end up backin jail. And that is certainly true. I wonder what you think whas the role, if any, for the state other and agencies to help that not be a revolving door . Well, you know, we actually prison before they got out to make sure when what i they did get out they knew are wherethey would be staying. We had housing and eduation opportunities and a lot of folks had jobs when they got out. Also, simple stuffhad never been done before. And brought the department of Public Safety to the prison so ey could have drivers licenses and state i. D. S when theyot out. Things we take for grants are gech an impediment to get a job or actuall into school, or all the Different Things that are going to be that was my challenge to them. This is your opportunity. There are plenty ourches and nonprofits that want to stand beside you to help you have a great, prosperous future. Some oklahomaans might look at what happened yesterdaynd say those people inspector prison for a ren. Help me understand how you as a conservative republican in oklahoma came to this idea and thought that this wa a good idea. Well, these were all lowlevel drug offenses, and, you know, were number one in the cotry in incarceration rates. We have been for decades. And when i became governor, i said this is ridiculou we dont have any different issues in our state than they have in any other state. So were number one in something we should be number 50th at. R i std going through what is it going to take to actually start moving the needle . And im so eted were no longer number one in that, and were going to continue to move the needxpel give people Second Chances. We always think about Public Safety. Were just mad at. Mation we we werent really afraid of them. And i think those folks hahe served time and it was time to give them a second chce. And oklahomaans agree with me on this. Lican or a repub democrat issue. This makes sense for our state for oure and i think fo country. I know you have argued in the past there is an economic argume to this, to letting people g with these lowlevel offenses. Make that economic argument to me. Well, you know, with these45 folks that we let out yesterday, wre saving the state 12 million. I would rather use those funds for education purposes. A lot of timess thereome mental illness, there are some drug addic so we appropriated the last session 10 million to some type of, you know, programs to help people get back on their feet. But at the end of the day, its about jobs. Its about reuniting with their families. Theres such an other drain on society. When you have heavy incarceration, you have children in foster care. So it really more than just the 12 million to incaremcerate there are so many other drags on the state and on other resources that i just wanted to approach it differently. What do you say to some of the criti of this whole people up when they do bading things is important and that that serves as a derrent to crime, and this whole movement is a mistake . Well,isten, were going were going to deter crime. Were going to makeure that people are punished, and were going to be a rule of law. My state, we will obey the law. Were going to respect our police officers. But theres a different between 15 years for simplon posses and that was a lot of the cases that we were seeing when we looked through the docket versus Second Chances. So we want to te at thosug addiction, and we want to get them Second Chances. So we v wey diligent when we looked through this case law, and we made sure that we didnt let any dangerous person out. These were all lowlevel drug offenders. Is this an argument i know you have been part of the National Governors association id a lot of those meet business this issuethis an argument that you make to your fellow governors . Epd if so, whats the rion you get when you say these things . I mean, i dont know specifically whar whaht states think, but i think this is something across party lines republicans, democrats we all think that certain people need t cond chances. We cannontinue to incarcerate at the levels we have for these nonviolent drug offenses. In our state is were classifying what is a violent and afe nonviolent e, and then we can have sentencing reform off of that, and make surehat wer fair with everyone. I mean, one theth lady say met that came out of prison, her name is tes, and her mom tied when she was 13. She got addicted to drugs. She got a 15year sentence for p simplesession. Shes been in for eight years. She got her g. E. D. While she was in prison. College. Will be able to go to we reunite her with her family. Those are the stories we need to help people getack on their feet when theyre not violent, were not afraid of them, and its a drug addiction in a lot of cases. All right, Governor Kevin Stitt of oklahoma. Thank you very much for being here. Thank you. Whitaker the College Admissions scandal, varsity blues, has cast an ugly spotlight on the world of College Admissions and how the system can be gamed. A key piece of that scandal is the way parents hired impostors to take admissions tests, fake scores and allow students more time to take their College Entrance exams. Of questions about theo a number controversial standardized tests that have long been required for college. Its rocking the world of Higher Education and the focus of john rengs conversation tonight for our series oinking college. Its part of our regular education coverage, making the grade. Yang william, for years, there has been debate how well standardized tests like the ica. T. S and a. C. T. S predict acad performance. And there have been cons about how race and economic background influence test scores. Now a Record Number of schools no longer require test scores for admission, and the nine Campus University of california system is studying whether to join them. Jeff selingo has writteral books on Higher Education including there is life after college. He is currently writing a book on collegedmissions who gets in and why that is due out next year. Nk tfor joining us. Its great to be here. Why is this debate or issue about whether or not to uset s. A. T. S and a. S coming up . We have the varsity blues investigation. Is there a rethinking now of the whole College Admissions process . I think a lot of it is test scores are highlight of highly linked to Family Income. If you came from aly make ov0 200,00. If you come from a family making under 120,000, a 1 in 50 chance. High correlation between Family Income and s. A. T. Scores. As colleges and universities are trying to diversify both economically, racially, and trying to look forr ways of asessing students beyond just a single score o fourhour test. Now, there have been attempts to tryo change or tweak the test to try to take into account those sort sioeconomic background issues. I mean, most recently, the. Dversity score. Talk about tha so the College Board tried to come up with what they called an environmental context dashboard. It was actually separate from the s. A. T. Score, but what it would do is give Admissions Officers who were reviewing applications a sense of the type of background that the student was coming fkm. It l at the neighborhood they grew up in. It looked at the high school that ty went to. And as a result of a lot of pushback against this by high schools and parents, the college bored decided to do away with this a couple months ago. Theyre lookinfor ways to measure the context that students are learning in, whether thats from their home environment or the high school. In the intriodui mentioned the university of california is looking at this now. Theyre going to announce their decision, they say, in february or march. How important is that deci going to be . Huge. Selective private rsity,ighly obviously, in chicago, went test optional about a year or so ago. And there was thinking that a lot of other highly selectivena brand colleges would follow them. Very few actually, none did. Egst of the testoptional co are lower feared. If the university of california does it it will be big news and i think a lot of other colleges will follow. There are a lot of students in california w go to College Everywhere around the country. A lot take the s. A. T. And a. C. T. Becausthe university of california requires it. If they no longer require ti wive a feeling other colleges follow along. I think a lot of people dont realize that theres a lot of money at stake in this question. Huge. Entity over 1 billion inrofit revenue from testing, that incltes a. P. Ting, college, s. A. T. , and other types of testing. So theres a lot the stake in this. Colleges and universities also have a lot a at stakes well. The number one predictor of success in college are grades i high school and a rigor of the high school curriculum. But a lot of colleges dont grates graidz. Ust high hool they think theres some grade inflation happening at prite and public high schools. So they like to use the saltor a. C. B as kind of tance wheel against grading. Its something that is national and something at they trust. And its not just matriculating and becoming a freshman for incoming freshman. There are a lot of schools graduate schools will no longer require standardized tests. Were seeing lot of graduate schools move back from standardized testing for graduate proagams. N, its also a way to try to boost interest, particularly at the graduate level, because a lot of studes going back to graduate school might be five, he years out of college and the last thingwant to do is take a standardized test. Application numbers as well. We even see that at the undergraduate level. We do see application numbers rise aschools that go test optional after they do it. How did the s. A. T. S t. And a. Become sort of, you know, landmarks or sort of piece of furniture in the College Admissions process . It was really never designed that whe. Whenat s. A. T. Was first put into place it was a way toex nd access to colleges and university because at that time, most of the elite colles essentially took students from elite boarding schools and elite private schools and want s. A. T. Was a way, oh, we could trust k takingd from a high school in north dakota. Stakeswas never the high test it eventually became. Lad it became a highstakes test overallr on, because more students were going to college. Snd, again, we wanted to how do we Asa High School in cae middle of iowa and a high school in nortolina. The other thing that happened is the u. S. Ask news world report rankings used it as one of their measures of success. Dd once they did that, once th that, colleges and universities facility like, well, we have to do everything we can do to raise our s. A. T. Scores because if we raise our s. A. T. Scores, we going to go up in the rankings. Jeff selingo, his book is who gets in and why. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Brangham the f. B. I. Reports this country. Re on the rise in a number of analyses have found supremacy accompanend white statistics. There was a grim reminder of that again in colorado when an alleged white supremacist was arrested after hplotted to blow up a synagogue in pueblo, a special correspondent charlayne tntergault has been looking at that issue throu eyes of a man with a unique perspective. Its part of our ongoing serieso race mattertions. Aeporter meet derek blac young scholar working here at the library of congress on his phd thes. What is the research, stly . Looking at older maps and a lot of the books that were printed in the earlyolonial period in america. Reporter hes studying how race was used to define and divide. Oh you mean this is at the very beginning . Yeah, yeah. The very beginning is the 1500s and 1600s. Reporter derek blacks journey to this moment was maybe more unusual than most in his field. He traced its beginnings back to his youth, when he was brought up in a hoehold led by his father, a dedicated white supremacist, who at one time had been a grand wizard of the ku klux klan, and who still maintains a website dedicated to his White Supremacists views. Black was an eager student of his fathers teaching from an early age. And, as he grew, he became one of the most vocal and prominent young members of the movement. His story was initially captured li a book rising out of hatre byaslow. Derek black, thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me, charlayne. Reporter you grew up in a family of White Nationalists. Do you remember some of the things your father taught you about that whole life and those concepts . Y he always talked about it like it was a calling. Like there was nobody in america at this point who was willing to point out what he thought was just true. Integration was completely wrong. Biological and everybody wanted to. Really secretly wanted to live separately and. Reporter secretly wanted to live separately . Yeah, yeah. Secretly and publicly. Like he believed that every white person was really kind of in agreement with what he was and that gave him a lot of strength. Went to a liberal arts college called new college. I went with a conviction thawrks couldnt change mind, that there was nothing wrong with my beliefs, that they were factual, althis stu racism, antisemitism, this whole worlew hat explains everything g rough that lens. The first ths realizing that this campus would not be like everywhere else id been. That they would not tolerate it. They wouldnt say, oh, youre a White Nationalist, but lets just not talk about that which is what every other environment ive been in, growing up in soreh florida behat, was. Reporter so when did it start to change and why . How . It was after i got oud on campus. Reporter you got outed. And how did you get outed . Somebody googled my name. I was public, but students in reporter who was condemning . It seemed like the entire campus. It felt like. Its an 800 rson student body. Reporter how was it manifest . There was a student for. An email forum where everybody whuld talk about what they were feeling an was happening. And so i could sit there and just read post after post on this thousandpage message, talking about how i was not welcome here, how i didnt represent them, how they couldnt understand how i could be a part of this place that they were trying to build. Reporter how did that make you feel . It was a lot more unsettling i think than i thought it would be. And so seeing people who i respected saying that what i was. I was espousing was hurting them, was hurting their lives. Like that was a different kind of feeling from every othecondemnation id ever had. Ll reporter in the months that ed, a jewish friend invited black to weekly shabbat renners, and black accepted, y for confrontation. It never came. Reporter hyonever accused of being an antisemite . He didnt. I think it was. It was definitely intention to talk to. Talked to him about it a net since then. That first dand the ones afterwards, he thought it was going to be counterproductive to try to have a big debate. He asked other people who were at the dinner to just dont bring it up because hes at a shabbat dinner and his ideology is antisemitism. Reporr they knew . That alone, yeah. He thought that that alone will be kind of a challenge to me. There was one person i met at the dinnrs we have lengthy, goodfaith conversations who the misunderstanding . Here was that was my first question. And slowly realizing, its not a misunderstanding. This is an assault on on their personhood. Theres a lot of speculation these days aut why there seems to be a growing populatioof White Nationalists, white supremacis and the argument is that they are fearful of becoming a minority in a country where black and brown people are becoming the majority, say over the next 30, 40 years. Is there anything to that as far as you can see . Is it fear . Yeah. I think that fear is the leading driver of people joining the White Nationalist movement. Ts this idea that theyre threaten that they are losing tomething. Thyre being attacked. Its all this stuff thats, for the record, not real and it what keeps them bound up in that world, where they cant look out and see that the threat is not real, that they are not in danger. That t world is fine. Derrick and his father have reconciled but also stuck to their own posns how do you begin to reach people that have those viewso t get them, in a way, on the path that you took, ithats possible . Right. I think its never going to be as easy as trying to argue somebody into a new world view. Looking back on my experience, i think what happened was it took place through discussion andde te. Thats what i felt was really convincing me was what are my ideas and why are they wrong . Looking back on it, it was the fact that i was in a different community. So you cant force that to happen. But its also not quite as hard as we might think. When you look at this toxic atmosphere in our country today, in particular in our country, but it seems to be all over the world, in so many otherlaces, too are you at all hopeful stand evergain, if we ever did stand united . I mean, i find it difficult to move forward and be engaged without having some sort of hope because i think thatou can see hope in every individual person who comes to a new understanding or thinks about things or changes. And so thats alwa my advice to other people who are at a loss for what should do . is just start with one person that you have a connection with. Thats the most importan and powerful thing you can epssibly do. Rter well derek black, thank you for joining us and i wish you all the best with your studies and with everything that youre engaged in. Thanks so much for having me. Brangham actor Edward Norton has starred in movies such as everyone says i love you, primal fear, the grand Budapest Hotel and birdman. At the toronto film festival,ed his newest film, in which he both stars and directs his most personal yet. Veis report is part of our cugoing coge of arts and ure, canvas. Brown in the film,th less brooklyn, Edward Norton plays lionel essrog, a smalltime detectiven into some very big doings. The story is based on the 1999 vel by jonathan lethem. I got hold of it and was immediately grabbed by this character. The core of jonathans book is much less the pl than it is this emotional intimacy he creates between you and this character and his incredible mind. Brown lionel is familiar in some ways, extraordinary i another he has a form of tourettes syndrome a kind o verbal tic which causes him to fixate on words and yell tm out, often at most inappropriate inments. Despite this a very debilitating thing in functioning in the world, inside his mind its this constant kind of beautiful game of almost jazz t brown and what was tke taking it on as an actor . Thats a nourishing meal as an actor to take on. Empathy that you feel, the nuance, the beauty and the pain, you know, all of it and so it bcomes a rich challenge. Wn norton is best known smr acclaimed performances in ller, tightlywound films such as American History x and alongside brad pitt in the cult hit fight club. As well as the commercial blockbuster, the incredible hulk. E but hestly chosen to be very selective in his projects. Working less as an actor becomes a better and better thing because at a certain point i get tired of seeing the same people too many times, myself. And i think about how people i really respect and admire their work, who i think have brown who are you thinking y . Daniel wis or sean penn. Sometimes people say, ke, oh wish we saw you in more. And i always say, like, why . You know, why . Because part of threason you like what you like is when its withheld from you for longer, i ink. Bro the new film hes done it all written the screenplay, starred and directed a cast of top actors. And hes oped up lethems book al set the action against big sohange in new york in the 1950s, as a character based on reallife new York City Parks commissioner robert moses, played here by alec baldwin, plots and connives to carve up and shape the city. Moses, known as the master builder, never held elected office, but wielded an autocratic clout. I was fascinated by those things. People really dont have a clear new york that we l nowow modern came to be in what is in many of its dysfunctions. Loss of neighborhoods. He when we tell our stories abouhow America Works to ourselves, we dont say, you know, these things get decided by, like, autocratic Imperial Forces who were racist and never ldrks in america, power is with ublic office. We say, thats not how power works in america, power is with the people, you know, we make and thats not true in modern row york. film, norton thinks, especially the film noir style of motherless brooklyn, offers a challenge. Good noir, good noir cinema is kind of a tradition of saying, hey, under our sunny narrative theres stuff going on. If you peel back the corner ththeres stuff going on i shadows that aint quite everything were saying it is and i like that. Brown this is clearly a passion project, one that took norton years to pull o. Its hard to get these kinds of movies made at the scale i brown hard in hollywood . Because . These kind of movies arent getting made so much anymore but you know that just means y have to sort of persevere and figure it out eventually. A movie like had a hugef age, impact on me warren beatty. He wrote, produced, directed and starred in a three hour and 15 minute filabout american socialists with documentary interviews with the real people from the time. And i remember warren telling me that people told him, this is goa end your career you gonna flush everythi youve brown the film motherless ryooklyn is playing in cinemas around the cou for the pbs newshour, im Jeffrey Brown at the Toronto International film festival. Brangham and thats the im william branghht. Join us online and again here tomorrow evening. For all of us at the pbs newshour, thank you and see you soon. Major funding for the pbs dawshour has been provided by the ford fountion. Working with visionaries on the frontlines of social change worldwide. Carnegie corporation of new york. Supporting innovations in education, democratic engagement, and the advanctient of interal peace and security. At carnegie. Org. And with the ongoing support of these institutions and individuals. This program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. And by contributions tyour pbs ation from viewers like you. Thank you. Po captioningored by newshour productions, llc captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org pati narrates los mochis. Here in the North Western part of sinaloa, just inland from the sea of cortez, los mochis is looking for a little attention. While tourists flock to the beaches of mazatlan to the south, and business runs through the capital of culiacan, los mochis at first glance has just one thing to offer. Its the first stop oa chepe, a scenic train route through northern mexicos magnificent coer canyon. But spend a little time in los mochis, and you will discover its second gift to sinaloa, street food. Tacos, tacos, tacos and you chunky, crispy,ts fried, adobada, greasy, steamed you crave it, theyve got it pati when you do something right, you dont need to add anything else on your menu. Pati narrates in my kitchen