Transcripts For KQED Charlie Rose 20240622

And battled, isnt just that. But we have to own up to the things we have done. Rose Bryan Stevenson for the hour next. Funding for rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose criminal justice is increasingly the focus of national attention. The issue has attracted rare bipartisan support with leaders from both sides of the aisles calling for reform. President obama appealed for an overhaul of the system in a speech at the n. A. A. C. P. s 106th National Convention last month. Since my First Campaign i talked about how in too many cases our criminal Justice System ends up being a pipeline from underfunded, inadequate schools to overcrowded jails. What has changed, though, is that in recent years, the eyes of more americans have been opened to this truth. Partly because of cameras, partly because of tragedy, partly because the statistics cannot be ignored. We cant close our eyes any more. And the good news, and this is truly good news, is that good people of all political persuasions are starting to think we need to do something about this. Rose Bryan Stevenson is a Public Interest attorney and the founder and executive executive director of the equal justice initiative. Representing people who trials whiles are based by trials or prosecutorial misconduct. He has won release from death row for prisoners, exonerated the wrongfully convicted and secured an end to life sentences without parole for juveniles. Hes also a forceful advocate against the Death Penalty. His efforts have been recognized by numerous awarding including mcarthur genius grant and 21 honorary degrees. Archbishop desmond tutu has called him americas young nelson mandela. His memoir, just mercy, a story of justice an redemption was named among 100 notable books of 2014 by the New York Times book review. It is now out in paperback. Im pleased to have Bryan Stevenson at this table for the first time. And you can blame us for that. Welcome. Thank you. Rose its great to see you. Its great to be here. Rose tell me what it is that you think is the most important question for this country as it considers race and justice. Race and justice, how are we going to recover from our legacy of raix inhe wallity. This history of Racial Injustice that has infected all of us, that has compromised all of our abilities to see one another fairly. I think thats really the question. Weve never taken it on. Weve never really tried to confront the legacy of slavery. I actually think we need to talk about slavery. People kind of look at me hard hen i say that. But i done think weve ever dealt with that legacy. Slavery was something that was really horrific in this country because it wasnt for me the great evil of american slavery wasnt involuntary serve servitude t wasnt forced labor. The great evil was the narrative of racial difference we created to legit mate it. The ideology of white supremecy. Rose inferior versus superior. Exactly. And that consciousness, that nair difficult was never addressed by the 13th amendment. And thats why i argued that slavery didnt end in 1865. I believe it evolved. Rose and exists today in the minds because what we think about questions of race and color. Yes. I think there is a presumption of dangerousness and guilt that gets assigned to black and brown people, particularly black and brown boys but black an brown people that weve never really freed ourselves from d reinforced. Been sustained we lynched people during the first half of the 20th century because of that presumption of dangerousness and guilt. We segregated people during the Civil Rights Era because of that presumption of dangerousness an gilted. We separated ourselves and we still do. And now on the streets when people see young men of color, there is they were sump shun that they are dangerous or guilty. And in a criminal courtroom you see it all the time. An were not going to make progress until we free ourselves. I think we need truth in reconciliation in america, weve never had that. This is exactly if not word for cord word but derstanding of the theme that cotes writing too as well. Hes reaching back to slavery and its implications. Yes. The very fact that my friend prince jones was gunned down cannot be subtracted from the fact that he was mistaken for another black person, you know, who was, in fact, a suspected criminal. And the reason why, you know, it was easy to interchange tell because they were both black and there are certain presumptions made about that. So it doesnt matter at the end of the day who the actual agent is. There is a broad systemic thing. Rose and you think, and you believe and you write eloquently that this is simply the forward pro swrex of history from slavery. I do, yes, yes, very much so. Very much so. And i think that, you know, until there is some sort of serious, you know, direct reckoning with this, we are just going to keep going over and over again on the same thing. I dont mean to harp on this but this question of, you know, who the killer is and what, you know, sort of race thing i think is one of these sort of distractions. I think that we did a lot of damage by creating a culture that tolerated this myth of white supremecy, this ideology of white supremacy. And then we allowed it to fester in this era of terrorism through lynching. And the demographic geography of this country was shaped by that era in ways we havent addressed either. Weve got black people in los angeles, cleveland, new york, boston, minneapolis. An those people didnt go to those communities because they were immigrants looking for new opportunities. They want to those communities as refugees from terror. They fled the deep south and terrorism of that era. If you know anything about refugee communities youve got to deal with the trauma that these communities bring with them, and they havent, we havent. So we have to understand that. I dont think were actually talking about the Civil Rights Movement in the right way. I think were too celebratory. Rose how should we talk about it sm. I think we should reflect on the damage that was be do. I hear people talking about the Civil Rights Movement and it sounds like a three day carn vachl on day one rosa parks didnt give up her seat on a bus, on day two dr. King led a march on washington and on day three we changed all the laws and everybody gets to celebrate. There isnt this engagement. We had 80,000 feel come to sell ma, alabama, in march of this year to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the march from selma to montgomery, many of them congressional representatives who want back to d. C. And refused to vote for a reinforcement of voting right because they dont see that connection. The truth is, is that during that era rehumiliated black people on a daily basis am we burden erred and battered and bet and excluded. We told black people they werent smart enough to go to school, they werent good enough to vote. We did that for decades. My parents were humiliated. The same thing to women. We did. In ways that made it difficult for many of us to see, many men to see women as people capable. And weve been pushing against that narrative, and that narrative has shifted somewhat by allowing women to kind of present them is ofs in these new ways. Weve got to do the same thing with regard to race and we havent done it. And we havent done it because i think we congratulate ourselves too quickly. We said we ended slavery when we didnt. We said we ended racial ter railroad when we did, we ended racial seg hegation when we didnt am and because of that we are seeing man fess man fess case manifestations of this same things. Rose where does that put you on reparations. I think we have to repair all the damage that this legacy has done. Im not focused on money because thats not the kind of reparation that is going to ultimately get us to a better place but i think we have a generation of people in this country who are white, who were taught either directly or indirectly that theyre better than other people because theyre white. And i think thats a kind of abuse. And i want to help that Community Free itself from that lie. But you cant just be igner ant about it. You cant be silent about it i want us to kind of mark the spots. The reparational work that i would like to see, i would like us to mark the spaces where the slave trade was made evident. We ought to be marking every lynching that took place in this country. Rose mark it how. With monuments and memorials and enforce and force this country to engage in the sober reflection we need to engage in so that no one can be proud of a Confederate Heritage that actually defended and sustained slavery, so that no one is confused about the fact that it was not the good ol days in the beginning of the 20th century. So that no one can be indifferent to the victimization of black people because we have thought about what that victimization represents. In south africa there was a recognition you couldnt recover from apartheid could truth and conciliation. In rwanda there is a recognize nation that there will not be peace after the genocide. I think it is a big part of it, i think you go to germany, and you cant go 100 meters in berlin without seeing markers and stones that have been placed in front of the homes where jewish families were an ukt didded and taken to the camps of the ger mant der man germans want you to reflect on the history of the holocaust. They have made more progress in the 30 or 40 years post reunification to deal with the legacy of the holocaust tan we have done in 150 years, 160 years since the end of slavery and theyve done it because they havent been afraid to tell the truth about what they did. No one thinks. Rose but you obviously know that in germany and in other places in europe, there is a kind of nazi sympathy. There will always be people who are resistant. There will always be people who are going to hold on to this narrative because its the only thing that they have to make themselves feel what they think they need to feel. Rose which raises an interesting question. You know how they feel and people around the world, feel about sort of even though it is a collectors thing, they feel about nazi insignias and uniforms and all of that. Uhhuh. Rose should we feel the same way, in your your judgement about anything having to do with the confederacy. I think we should. I think we should be more sober than we are. Rate now my state of alabama confederate memorial day is a state holiday. Jefferson daviss holiday is a state holiday. We dont even have Martin Luther king day, its Martin Luther king robert e. Lee day. Its not even that we are neutral or silent about those things. We are celebrating those things. And you cannot celebrate those things and move forward with reconciliation. Rose by saying that, you suggest that the confederacy was only about protection protecting slavery. It was primarily about slavery. Rose so anybody who fought in the civil war on that side of the confederates was, in fact, giving his dic shall did to slavery. I think there is no question about that. I dont think that there is any doubt that had the south won the war, slavery would have continued. We can make up all of these other arguments. And we try to do it because we recognize that slavery is bad. But it is a false way of thinking about identity. Lack, there were white people in the south in the 19th century who were against slavery. And nobody knows their names. There were white people who were against lynching. There were white people who were against segregation and we dont know their names. And we should know their names and we should honor them. We should name schools after them and streets after them. If you want a state holiday, have it after them. But to engage in this false memory, this false narrative that demonizes those victims by not recognizing the harms. Rose demonizes the victims. It absolutely does, it would be insulting if the nation state of germany germans was still executing people in gas chambers. It would not be tolerable. And it should not be tolerable here. Rose slave re is like the holocaust. It is a human rights oppression that crushed approximately ams of lives. It devastated the aspirations of an entire race of people. And it did something destructive to our moral consciousness. Weve actually tried to make peace with our inslavement of other human beings. And its left us not as morally evolved as we need to be. Its made us vulnerable to tolerating lynching and tolerating segregation. And tolerating a criminal Justice System where we now project that one in three black male babies is going to go to jail or prison. Thats unconscionable. Rose the president of the united states, barack obama in 2009 when he assumed office had gone before the congress in his first state of the union, and essentially said what you have said at this table today. A, should he have done that . And would that have begun a National Dialogue or would it have prevented any conversations about anything else because it would have seized us. Well, i think it would have done the latter. A dont think there are any shortcuts am i dont think we can elect a president and make that president responsible for facilitating this broader conversation. This is a conversation. Rose why cant we look to the biggest pulpit in the country as a catalyst to the conversation. Oh, i think it absolutely can and should be a catalyst. But i dont think we can expect these problems to be solved at the top and just going to be thrown down. These problems have to begin in communities. Rose you mean they have to go from the bottom up rather than the top down. I do, that doesnt mean i dont have expectations for the president and our elected leaders. There are a lot of things we can and should be doing am i think one of the challenges that this president had is that there was a perception that because hes black and this narrative of racial difference is so intense, we have to worry that he is only going to be the president for the black people. So he had to kind of engage in a posturing that actual leigh made it harder for him to talk about race issues than it mate have been if i were white. And that. Rose he had to engage in a posturing. Well, i think there was this fear in many parts of this country that somehow if we elect a black president he is going to prioritize the needs of black people in a way that the rest of us should be afraid. And its that kind of thinking that has rooted in this very narrative. Rose but none of that was said in the campaign. Its never said. Rose okay, fair enough. Nobody said that in the campaign of 2080, in the democratic primaries or general election, that he will prioritize. Y in which whenever hen the reacted to something that had a Racial Justice component there was this out of proportion, disproportionality hysteria about it. Now im not suggesting that that doesnt mean you cant do things. Because you canment and you should. But it does mean that weve got to deal with this problem in a much broader way. Rose and would that occlude bringing gates to the white house for a beer. All of that. There was this hypersensitiveity to any act or guess ture that seemed to be responsive to the problems of racial violence. We talked about the tragic shooting of tray john Trayvon Martin outrage and i think that that speaks to the immaturity of our countrys capacity to talk honestly about race. You say race and most parts of this country and people get nervous. You say Racial Justice they start looking for the exit. The question is why. What are we are afraid of . I think if we actually understood the history more clearly and understood that there is actually lib riggs on the other sid of this issue, we can actually get to a place where we all feel better. Rose liberation for all of us. All of us. Were all burdenern burdened by this history. We keep making mistakes. While people say things that create conflict with black people, black people are put in positions they dont feel comfortable. Were all burdened by it. We can run but we cant hide and weve been running for a long time. Rose does deserve any of the responsibility. We all have a responsibility. They were sump shun of dangerousness and guilt doesnt get assigned to black men and boys by white people, it get as signed by back people too. Weve all been affected by the way these narratives have evolve of the. And part of the reason why i think it is time for us to move forward is that we continue to see these manifestations, Police Officer shatting unarmed black kids on the streets, declining opportunities in many professional circles for people of color. All of these things are man as if push manifestations. We have children born in violent communities they live in i have lent household, neighborhoods, they go to i have lent schools, they are suffering from trauma by 4, a years of age and nobody will organize the kind of massive intervention we need to have in about 100 zip codes because they dont value the illness of those children largely because they are black and poor. Rose so our conversation began with you and as i mentioned others have suggested, you know, the lingering pervasive impact of slavery in terms of how we see each other beyond color. And youre suggesting we need a dialogue. If in fact you were in charge of the dialogue, where would you take it and how would you engage it . I would begin by getting everyone in this country to be more attentive to how this narrative of racial difference was created. Rose why we feel this which. Why we feel this way. Why is it that were so indifferent to the might of native people whom weve erican indians. About and american indians, yes, the indigenous population in this country. We havent really under tad the ways in which many of our current policies replicate this idea that we can come in and claim something and displace other people without implicating our own moral compass. We have asians on the west coast, not that long ago, in concentration camps because we feared people, because of their ancest ree, their ethnicity. And we allowed that policy to allow us to do something brutal and cruel. If were not careful in our hysteria around terrorism, well dot same thing. Its that consciousness that we need to build on. Hysteria will allow us to do, or will cause us to do what . Incredibly misguided, inhumane things. The essential ingredients to oppression, violations of human rights are fear and anger. If you want to understand oppression, if you want to understand genocide, the holocaust, there is always a narrative of fear and anger behind it. And weve allowed ourselves done could be rehavent resentiment, a well range of things. We preach it and make people afraid. This fear and danger. And thats what is allowed the south to violently overtake and. Rose this is what politicians have used. That is what they used to put 2. 3 Million People in jails and prisons, to put 70 Million People in this country on the roster of folks with krilla rests. To put 6 Million People on probation and parole. Have you done enough . I dont think any of us have done enough. I dont think any of us have done enough. Because there is tremendous suffering in this country. I mean theres never been a time in america when there are more innocent people in jails and prisons than there are right now. And as a lawyer trying to help. Rose there has never been a time in which there have been more innocent people in jails than 2016. Thats correct. Rose 15. Thats correct. We went from 300,000 people in jails and prisons in 1972 to 2. 3 Million People in jails and prisons today. Rose i want to go to your personal experience in a moment, as a lauer. But there are those who will argue that its not about race. Its about economics. It is. Rose poverty. Lack of opportunity. Yeah. Its those things. Those are very powerful forces. You cannot deny that poverty is the element that aggravates all of these issues. We have a criminal Justice System. I make this point all the time, that treats you better if you are rich and guilty than poor and innocent. Wealth, not culpability shapes outcomes. There is no question that poverty is a big part of it. But we are kidding ourselves if we think that race is not also an issue. If we think that our consciousness about race is simply irrelevant in dealing with these social problems. Its not honest to say with all about poverty and not about race. Of course its about poverty but its also about race. And i want to deal with poverty. I really do. I want to create some reforms that deal with structural pov ert. This generational poverty. But it doesnt mean that im going to be silent about race. And i think thats more, in my view, a more honest way of engaging with our history. Rose why are you in law rather than politics . I believe in rights. I believe that sometimes you have to protect the people who will never have political power who will never be the political majority. I grew up in a region where if it was left to the political political process there would still be separation, there was never a time to or to create Voting Rights for black people, it took the court, it took this notion of the rule of law, it took a rights framework to create all of my opportunities. My ability to go to school, my able to practice law. And so because of that, i believe we need to have people in that space protecting the rights of people who are disfavoured, the minorities, the excluded, the marginalized, the people who will never have enough votes to achieve their basic protections through the political process. Rose so you have never been tempted by the political process. No, no, i really havent. Rose you believe you can change law but maybe not change politics until you change law. Thats right. I think when we change law, and you have seen this play out on the issues around Marriage Equality and gay rights and some of the other, womens rights. You begin to change the culture. And then it becomes possible to imagine a political system that can be responsive to people who have historically been excluded. Marginalized, minimized. I think weve made progress in the political spatial. We have an africanamerican president. But were a long way away from expecting people to do the right things to protect the most vulnerable through the political process. Rose has alabama changed sm. I think every place has changed but no place has changed enough. I mean. Rose including massachusetts and new york. Absolutely. Rose and everywhere else. Absolutely. I mean you know, on the streets of noferk, and on the streets of massachusetts, you still see a presumption of dangerousness and guilt assigned to young people of color. Its not restricted to the south. In fact, i was in a courtroom in the midwest, not the south, getting ready to do a hearing a couple of years ago and sitting at Defense Council table, had my suit, shirt, tie on. I was sitting there early and a judge walked in and the judge saw me sitting there. And he said hey, hey, hey, you get back out in the hallway. You wait until your lawyer gets here. I dont want any defendants sitting in my courtroom without their lawyers. And i stood up and said im sorry, i didnt introduce myself, my name is Bryan Stevenson and the judge started laughing, the prosecutor started laughing. I made myself latch, and then my client came in, a young white kid i was representing and we did the hearing and later i was thinking what is it when a judge sees a middleaged black man in a suit and tie at Defense Council, didnt even occur to him he was a lawyer. What that is, is the way this history an this narrative has shaped us that is true all over this country. Rose lets assume we do everything better. How long do you think it will take to get it out of our well, were at a disadvantage. Rose dma. Were at a disadvantage because we have let a lot of valuable time go by. But i think it could come sooner than most people expect. Because truly, our dna, our basic human instincts are really not programmed for this kind of division, this kind much otherness, this kind of tension, this kind of racial thinking. Thats something weve had to learn. And i think if we push people to kind of free themselves from it, will you see some amazing things. We already see some a i maing things in many parts of this i . We just havent seen enough. Rose is there a place, and i know you have suggested south africa because of truth and reconciliation, some of that in the balkans, because the hague has played a role in some of that. Yes. Rose where you think that a country has faced up to its responsibilities in a way that its cleansed itself of the implications and the consequences. I think the nation that comes the closest is germany. I mean because when you think about how horrific the holocaust was. How horrifying the nazi era was, its really, its kind of shocking to imagine that we now have this regard for germany, this respect for germany that we would not have expected to have this soon after world war ii. Rose yet at the same time in the news in past week has been japan. Uhhuh. Rose and the Prime Minister in part, in part apologizing for all of the atrocities of the japanese government. Yeah. Rose not just against american soldiers but against the chinese population. Yes, yes. You know, i i have if if im going to be. Rose here is a Prime Minister who could not say im sorry. Because of the politics. Yes, but that is because nationalism and our National Identities are too much shaped around never saying im sorry. We have a song book in america that is big and beautiful when it comes to success and pride and the accomplishment but we dont have a pretty good song, we dont have a very good song when it comes to how we apologize. Rose im apologizing to some suggested weakness. Suggested weakness or lack of respect, of country, of all those things. But you and i know that if were going to have a healthy relationship with someone we love, i dont know any loving couples that never say im sorry to each other. I dont think you can be a longterm healthy loving couple unless you learn to say im sorry. And you cant have good friendships until youre prepared to say you know what, that was my mistake. Its our ability to apologize, to recognize when we go out of bounds, it makes us human but also makes us redeem. Thats how we get to mercy. Thats how we get to compassion. Thats how we get to greatness. And if we dont practice that as a nation, we will fail to be the Great Society we claim to be. And so learning to say im sorry is something we want to do. Learning to make peace with the difficult things we have done to people of color, to the natives, is something were going to have to do if we want to be great. Rose that really does go to the heart of some relationships, period. Period. Rose marriage, relationship between nationalities. Absolutely. Rose the capacities to say im sorry. Thats right. Rose and saying it without the fear that you will be active against because you do it. Thats right. Rose taken advantage of. Thats exactly right. Rose ostracized. Absolutely. Because i represent people on death row, many of whom have done terrible things, ive learned something about it. I make this argument that each of us is more than the worst thing weve ever done. I really believe that, i believe it for every human being. I think if someone tells a lie they are not just a liar, if they take something that doesnt belong to them, they are not just a thief. Rose each of us is better than the worst thing we have ever done. Were more than the worst thing, even if you kill somebody youre not just a killer. And a nation that enslaved isnt just an enslaving nation, a nation that lynched isnt just a lynching nation, a nation that segregated and des pieced and rejected and batters isnt just that. But we have to own up to the things we have done. And i think there is a kind of freedom on the other side of that. And we cant be afraid to acknowledge those things am yeah, it is like every relationship. The church makes mistake, puts children at risk, they have to apologize. An when school does things that are irresponsible to students they have apologize. When the military doesnt treat women appropriately they need to apologize, there needs to be accountability. Rose like when institutions allow discrimination of any kind. Thats right. Rose by gender, by race. All of that, all of it. Rose they have to apologize. And you know, when youre trying to create a brand or a product in business, you make a lot of mistakes, theres accountability. You know, they try to get in front of it. Our mistake shouldnt have put that faulty part in that car, were sorry. Well fix your car for free. There is a consciousness that you cannot be respected without that. Rose who pushes back against what you say . I think its not direct. Its kind of indirect. Its this habit of just never doing uncomfortable things that weve all inherited. You know, trying to own up to our history of slavery, thats uncomfortable. So nobody is going to take that on or exercise leadership for that. Dealing with the fact that we have a marginalized people and treated people unfairly, thats hard. I represent people who spent, i just got a man off death row, anthony ray spent 30 years on death row for a crime he didnt commit 306789 years locked in a 5 x 7 cell, tried. Rose solitary confinement, locked down 25 hours a day, witnessed 53 excuse executions whale on the row, complained about smelling flesh burning when they electrocuted people. We got him released in april 2015 and not a Single Person in the Prosecutors Office responsible for the wrongful one of the challenges we have people possibly executing an innocent person than acknowledging. Rose that the system failed. That the system failed. And that speaks to this larger problem of not having the habits of people who fail sometimes. And dealing with that honestly. Rose so how do we explain you. I mean here is this guy who i have done a profile for 60 minutes. Yes. Rose who ed bradley did a profile of. Yes. I mean we all vanity fair did a profile of. I mean that speaks to your el consequence and your conviction and your values and Everything Else so what made you the way you are . You know, i feel really fortunate. My grandmother was the daughter of people who were enslaved. And migrant grandmother had this wisdom that was profound and deeply impactful when i would see my grandmother, as a little boy, she would give me these hugs, squeeze me so tightly i could barely breathe and see me an hour later and say brian, do you still feel me hug ug. And if i said no, she would be on me again. And you know, she talked about her father who learned to read as a slave. And how brave that was. How risky and dangerous that was, but how necessary it was for him to be free. And she didnt have formal schooling but she learned to read and she just told me that you have to fight, fight, fight. But have to fight with integrity. You have to fight with your heart and your mind. And it made a huge impact and i have been shaped by a lot of people. Rose you do know a lot of lauers. I knew none, i didnt meet a lawyer until i went to Harvard Law School and immediately decided i didnt want to be one. But thatting chaed. Rose why was that . I think i went to law school because i was interested in dealing with racial inequality and pov the and justice and didnt ecisely that and it doinging ergized me and affirmed me. But being around people like my grandmother in the community where i grew up, a poor segregateed black community where people were hardworking, they just wanted things to get better. But they understood the power of taking care of the people you love. And i, you know, i have to say, ive really been moved by this community of people who are incarcerated, the community of people i serve in the poor community, the community of people who are trying to educate in the deep south. And its hard for me to see people struggling with these burdens that i think we can relieve if we just engage in a different way. So thats what motivates me to kind of see this as an opportunity. Rose but was there a moment, i mean, you know if your grandmothers hug was a moment, was there a moment in which you somehow said i cant take the easy way. There was. When i was in law school, i was really disillusioned. I was trying to persuade myself that i could accept a career as a lawyer that i through would not be fully affirming. I had the opportunity to work with a Humanrights Group in atlanta georgia, they provided Legal Services to people on death row. And they sent me down to meet a man on the row who had not been met yet. They said would you just tell him he has a year, he doesnt have to worry about being executed any time in the next year. And i was so nervous and persuaded that my ignorance to my law School Status would be a disappointment to him. But when i met him he hugged me and told me i was the first person he had met who was not a death row prisoner or guard. He was excited because he would be able to see his wife and children. We fell into this conversation that was so powerful. We just kept talking and talking. And the guards came in because they were angry that i spent some of time there and were very rough with him and pushing him out of the room. Before he left the room he looked at me and said brian dont worry about this, you just come back. Then he did something i have never forgotten. He closed his eyes. He threw his head back and he started to sing. And he started singing this hymn. He started singing im pressing on the upward way, hugh nits new heights im gaining, then he said lord, plant my feet on Higher Ground. And hearing that man sing, hearing him be pushed down the hall. You could hear the chains changing but you could still hear him singing about Higher Ground. All of a sudden i knew i wanted to help condemned people get to Higher Grounds am but more than that i knew that my journey to Higher Ground was tied to his journey. If he doesnt get there, im to the going to get there am and that consciousness for me wasnt overwhelming. It wasnt burdensome t wasnt scary t wasnt sacrificial, it was liberating it was energizing it was affirming. Rose you knew what you had to do. I did. I did. Rose see, thats such a beautiful moment in a human beings life to know what you have to do. Yeah. I think thats right. Rose Everything Else just clears away. I think thats right. Rose i know where i have to goness absolutely. Rose i know what i have to do. I think thats right. Rose and if i dont do that. Yeah. Rose i will never believe my life mattered as much as it might. I think thats right. And the way you maximize that opportunity is by positioning yourselves in places where there is some difficulty. When you get proximate to the things you care about and choose to do uncomfortable things. When you dont do whats convenient and comfortable all the time, you have those moments. I dont think they happen quite as readily readily when were surrounded by comfort and convenience view. I think we have to force ourselves to do uncomfortable things, inconvenient things. What does solitary confinement and death row do to the humanity. And the solitary confinement is horrific because it is an assault on all of your senses it is an assault on your basic humanity. Its hard to hold on to your dignity when youre locked down like that. Mr. This man i represented who just got released from death row. What does he say. What does he show. Hes an amazing human being. Hes got a remarkable sense of humor, smart, committed, arris matic. But hes been traumatized. Hes been hurt by what we did to him for 30 years. And it will take a long time to recover from that. And he wont fully recover ever, no one does. I have a client in florida who was 13 years of age when he was sentenced to life without parole for nonhomicide offense. And he was so small the ward had to make one of these choices. I either put him in general population where he will be sexually a sauld or solitary confinement. They didnt alter the rules for this 13 area old boy. The rule is that you have to go six months without ever speaking too loudly, without ever talking back, without ever doing anything wrong or we will not let you out. And for a 13yearold boy, isolated from all human beings, no touch, no opportunities to get outside your cell, that was torture. And so he could never go six month was doing something wrong, without cutting himself, or getting mad. Rose he could never get out. He spent 18 years in solitary confinement, 18 years. Rose what did it do to him. It was horrific it broke him. It menaced him, it undermined his ability to be a good decision maker. And we are working with him. And he is making slow progress. But thats something that should have never happened. We didnt have to do that. You cant be in that experience without suffering all of the trauma, all of the disability that comes with Something Like a traumatic experience. And it is tragic. You know, the combat veterans that are coming back, you can make the argue that we had to fight the war. I dont know that i believe that, but you can make that argument. We dont have to isolate people in this way where we make them less human, where we torture them, where we traumatize them where we injure them. That is gratuitous. Rose there are hard questions there in terms of asking if you knew a bit of conversation could a bit of information could somehow save a larger group of people. But in the american prison system, there is no debate. Were not gaining anything. Were not gaining anything. This is a completely misguided policy that we tolerate because we havent really we talk so much about victims rights. And im really sensitive to the victimization of people without are the victims of violent crime. We have a horrific number of crimes in this i . My grandfather was murdered when i was 16. We have too many people assaulted, too many robbed and burg lal burg eled am i dont want to be indifference. The constant victimization is something that is important but we have limited it. Were not even ma sure mature in how we think about helping people recover from being victimized. And because of that, we end up victimizing other people. Rose so how do we recover. I think. Rose from being victimized. I think we commit ourselves. Rose thinking of yourself as a victim is not healthy. Well, thats right. But we commit ourselves to helping people get healthy, to recover. And we dont say well, if you victimize me, i get to victimize you. Thats not a healthy strategy for getting to a healthier place. You dont say. Rose thats one of the things about torture, they say if we torture, they will torture. Absolutely. Thats right. The other thing we dont say is because you victimized that person, we get to victimize you, or we dont care but, we only care about their victimization because that creates another kind of victimization. What is interesting to me about the Death Penalty and race, the Death Penalty is racially biased. The evidence of bias is most evident not in the race of the offender, but in the race of the victim. You are 22 times mohr lakely to get the Death Penalty if the victim is white than if the victim is black. We value those murders differently than we value. Rose . Take all billiona. 22 are you 11 times more likely, and this is the georgia data that went before the u. S. Supreme court in this case. Are you 11 times more likely to get the Death Penalty if the victim is white, than if the victim is black. Are you 22 times mohr likely to get the Death Penalty if the defendant is black and the victim is white. And that was subjected to all kinds of multivaried analyses and race of the victim was the greatest predictor of who got the death penal. White victim cases typically did, black victim typically did not. My state of alabama 65 of all murder victims are block but 80 of the people on death row are there for Crimes Involving victims who were white. And that consciousness of whose lives matter has shaped our ability to do justice. And we dont think that the lives of people who are arrested matter. We dont think that the lives of poor people matter. We dont think that the lives of young black and brown boys an men matter. We dont think that the lives of women who have used drugs matter. And our consciousness about how to protect them and help them and serve them is gone. Rose you were saying no matter what you have done. Thats right. Rose your life matters. Absolutely. And in a just society that has to be true for everyone. You know, the germans didnt think that jewish lives matter. In south africa, thewhite minority didnt think black lives matter. And rwanda you had this notion that some tribes dont matter. And that consciousness is what leads to horror, to genocide, to oppression, to inequality. And a just society has to protect. Rose what happened in the balkans too, that kind of genocide was not. Absolutely. Rose not about differences in color. Exactly right. But we have a way of creating well, their suffering doesnt matter, whenever that exists in a society, you will see all the problems were seeing in too many of our communities. Rose it is interesting, bill gates who sat at this table a number of times and especially in con swruntion with his wife melinda gates. The initial beginning that sort of caused them to make the commitment to resources they made, was the notion that all lives matter. Uhhuh. Rose equally. All matter. Yeah. And they were doing that not in the context of race or economic circumstances, even though they contributed, they were doing that in the context of global health. Yes, yes, yes. Rose we have to wake up, that all lives have equal value. And that is the thing i guess is why i keep trying to make some of these arguments in difficult situations because actually when you get to that place, its a better place to be than when are you constantly trying to defend and justify why that life doesnt matter. Why those people deserve that, why these people cant be the other thing. Rose so then as all the victims families, people who suffered enormous pain and loss, you can make the ex you can make the easy examples, you know, someone who in their homes were invaded and brutally raped and tortured and killed. And you say all those people without do that, their lives have value. Thats what you are saying. All lives. Rose until we get there we cant deal with these big issues. Thats right. All lives matter. When my grandfather was murdered the question that we were asking is why. What is it in our society that would make it possible for these young kids to do this ago of violence. There was plenty. Rose what did they do . They broke into my grandfathers home living in the projects in south philadelphia and tried to steal a tv. He tried to stop them and they stabbed him to death. But we wanted to understand what could we do to stop that from happening. It wasnt just those kids. We understood that there were all kinds of things shaping choices and behavior. I work with kids 12 and 13 who dont expect to be free by the time they are 21. I want to disrupt that. And i want to do it because i dont want them to victimize other human beings but i also care about their futures. And that is why he yes, all lives matter. I think that our capacity to take care of people who have been injured, who have been assaulted, who have been victimized is going to be enhanced when we have a deeper appreciation. Rose but take the, is there a difference in all lives matter, that all lives have equal value . Is there a difference in that . Well, i mean, i done think so. I mean when it comes to whether we treat you with respect, whether we care about your opportunities, whether we treat, give you equal access to the things that are basic, then all lives have equal value. Now obviously somebody who can generate a lot of attention or generate a lot of money there are people who have he for us enormous musical talent. Rose were not talk exactly so, there are going to be these characteristics but when it comes to your basic obligation to treat people with respect and dignity and to recognize their humanity, no, all lives have equal value. Rose is that in the end when you analyze every possible reason for taking anothers life and you reject all of them, is it primarily because the system makes mistakes. Uhhuh. Rose or is it because no society has the right to take somebodys life because they are at their best, better than the worst thing they did. And so therefore no matter how atrocious, no matter whether it was hitler, you wouldnt take his life, even though the state took a lot of nazi lives after the war. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rose after trial. Yes, thats right. For me its both of them. I start with the first point. I really, because i dont need to persuade everybody of that second point it is what i believe. I dont think we actually advance our society, advance our commitment to the rule of law by killing people to show that killing is wrong. And the same way that i dont think it makes sense to rape people to show that rape is wrong. I dont think we should torture to show that torture is wrong. I think we compromise our own dignity and integrity too much. We have this fiction that we can kill people in a way that doesnt hurt people the way raping people would. And so we allow that to happen. And so i dont think thats a healthy way to advance. Rose you have known a lot of people on death row. Yeah. Rose if all of them none of them, you are saying, i assume, im asking now, all people you have known on death row, whether they were there because they did an act or not, committed a crime or not, and maybe there is a different between the two, if any of them had known they would likely to be executed, would they have committed the crime still . Sure. I dont think that anybody. Rose there is no. Deper deterrent, we have too many people in our society, poor kids, poor people in the margins, people suffering from mental illness, people in really horrific states that expect to die. They dont they dont expect to live a long life. They are preoccupied with when their end is going to am could. Its not a fear of death thats going to change this behaviors. What is going to change this behavior is some hope. Some possibility that things can get better. Rose some Life Experience that gives value. Some Life Experience that gives value. But i dont have to make that moral argument. I really do think that the threshold argument is not whether people deserve to die for the crimes they committed but whether we deserve, do we deserve to kill. And if you have the kind of mistakes that we have, if you have a system that is undermined by all of this bias and dig otry that bigotry that treats you better because of your poverty or wealth, that it makes as many mistakes as we make. Rose should this country apologize to those nazi leaders that we killed sm. I dont think you ever have to apologize for people who have committed crimes that you have punished unfairly. What you have to do is stem that actuallying atety responds to the injuries that are still alive. You know, i think it would be misguided to think about apology in that space when we have so many living victims of inequality that we havent helped. Rose do you have people that love you without totally who say you have a bigger soul, a bigger heart, a bigger comprehension snan i do . No. And. Rose youre a special person and i cant go that far with you. No, and what i have there are exceptions to my compassion. Rose yeah. There are exceptions to my. What amazes me whrx amazing me is that i have people in my life who dont even know me that well, and who dont claim to love me, but who feel exactly as i do about this need to get to a better place, this need to combined of affirm our humanity this need to recover compassion and mercy and justice. Rose other than doing what you were doing exactly at this moment. Uhhuh and other than doing what are you doing when are you in a kourlt room, an other than doing what you do when are you lobbying congress and legislatures to say change, make sure that we adhere to these values that i am trying to get you, other than that, what else is necessary too accelerate change . I really do think that we need to change the landscape. Weve got a new project where were very interested in the visual landscape, the visual history. And so were putting up these markers. Were trying to do these monuments. I think there is something important about that. That is how you cope with collective trauma to manage it, to create spaces where you can begin to rethink. Rose i believe in part the idea that you have to have, you have to clarely show this is where our values stand. Yes exactly. Rose you can he is it here an here. And this is what is we do and at the same time we have to reward moral courage. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. But i think that there is something important for a society. I about to the vietnam war memorial in d. C. And its powerful. You go to the lincoln memorial. You put your hand on it. You read that, and it makes you understand something about yourself that you will not understand when are you in that space. I think we need to do more of that and to create pathways and portals for people to get out of this miring muck of racial difference and uglyness and animosity and to something a little more haley, a little more hopeful. And a little more response tough our history. So what promises have you made to yourself and what promises have you made to your grandmother. And what promises have you made to a Larger Community . That Bryan Stevenson is going to do. Well, you know, im going to keep fighting. Thats the promise i make to the community. You know, i think justice is a constant struggle. If im about justice, i have to keep struggling but its not a burr for me,s really a privilege. I feel riff liged privileged to do what i do. Rose thank you for coming. Youre very welcoming very welcome. Rose this paperback is called just mercy. It incorporates a lot of the ideas and values weve been talking about, even though we didnt review the book. Just mercy, a story of justice an redemption, new york reviewer said every bit as moving as to kill a mocking bird and in some ways more so a stirring testament to the salvation that fighting for the vulnerable sometimes yields. Bryan stevensons life is about that, thank you for joining us. See you next time. For more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs. Org and charlyear rose. Com. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org on the neck carlry rose how the press is looking at donald trump, join us. Why trump, why he is doing so well. Why is everyone talking about him. Rose yeah. It is extraordinary to me and charlie, you have covered a great many president ial campaigns that we in august, 15 months out and you have 24 Million People tuning in to the first president ial debate, you have tens of thousands of people coming out to see these candidates, not just trump, personiest sanders too. But trump especially. And this is actually the thing at this stage of the race that im really encouraged by, that we are seeing a level of engagement and interest. And you can say its because everyone is waiting to see what outrageous thing he is going to say or do next. In a way, i dont know that it matters whether we should be talking about what would trump be like as president. Lets think about what it is like to have a Campaign Like tching so closely an were having arguments about things that we probably need to be talking about. Ironically enough its the billionaire Real Estate Developer who is talking about the roll of money in politics and how politicians have all become puppets. You can agree or not with the ingenuousness of this coming from him but a lot of people are concerned about the role that money is playing in politics. And the role the billionaires are playing, so in this case, i think it is fascinating that we have a character who almost came out of nowhere. I mean came out of the world a real estate and reality tv who week after week was dismissed by all of the experts, whether in the Republican Party or in the media as oh this is going to go away. It is a summer storm. And everything that was supposed to kill him as the cliche goes, seemed to make him stronger. And you know, so the latest republican poll has him even leading among women, when his encounters with megyn kelly were supposed to have dispatched him. Before that john mccain, before that the comment about mexican immigrants. And he keeps on saying things that should have, in the age of outrage, should have been fatal. And they werent. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by additional funding provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. This is nightly Business Report with Tyler Mathisen and sue herera. Stock market meltdown. The selling was intense. The dow and s p 500 suffer their worst day of the year. How concerned should you be about todays steep selloff . Strong foundation. Home sales rise again in july but so do prices and with a possible rate hike on the horizon, is the Housing Market at a turning point. Outdated dams. Our series, the big fix, looks at what is being done to address our aging water infrastructure. This is thursday, august 20th. Good evening, everyone. Welcome. The selling today was serious. It intensified into the close and the damage was ugly. Games for the air gone