Transcripts For GBN The 20240703

Stop the boats. Will they really scrap the rwanda plan . Even if it starts working . Ill also be getting the mood of tory backbenchers with one mp who is standing down at this election, former environment secretary George Eustice and one mp who is fighting his seat. Former minister sir conor burns and author will hutton will join me to discuss his new book, this time no mistakes how to remake britain. Dont go anywhere because once again, weve got a fun packed 90 minutes of politics coming right up. Now to go through the papers this morning. Im delighted to be joined by nigel nelson, senior political commentator gbnews news. Nigel, lovely to see you. Well natalie elphicks defection, it goes on. It goes on and on. Its all over the front page of the mail on sunday. Turncoat mp asks minister to pull strings for husbands sex abuse trial. Tell me about this, because it seems as if shes reached out to the former justice secretary, robert formerjustice secretary, Robert Buckland, after her. We think ex husband Charlie Elphicke was convicted of sexually assaulting two women. And what did she want buckland to do . Well, i mean, this is the allegation thats both in the mail on sunday, as you said, and the sunday times. What you wanted to do was to interfere in the case. She didnt much like the case. She didnt much like the judge for a start. The other thing that she particularly objected to was the was that the case was coming up directly after covid, and she wanted it to be moved to a lower profile court to try and dampen down, dampen down the interest in it, Robert Buckland sent her away with a flea in her ear. Said it would be totally inappropriate for him to get involved in the, in the judiciary , which is in the judiciary, which is absolutely right now, of course, we do know that Natalie Elphicke was suspended from the commons for a day, and that was for interfering again. This time it interfering again. This time it was to try to stop character references provided by other mps being made public. But either way, she should have known better. You dont interfere with the with the judicial process. Shes apologised , hasnt she . Shes apologised, hasnt she . After Jess Phillips and others called her out in the week following the defection for what they accused her of. Which was they accused her of. Which was victim blaming, she sort of came out with statements after her ex husband was convicted, having a go at the victims and then she said she regretted that. But weve got another number of problems with this defection. You know, shes a right wing tory whos been hugely critical of labour. Shes, according to these newspaper hours, sort of being seen to be trying to cover up her ex husbands trial and conviction. She tried to cover conviction. She tried to cover up that she was a character witness, along with other mps, i mean, hasnt this been a decision by keir starmer thats badly backfired . Nigel i dont think its badly backfired. I think its badly backfired. I think that has it backfired . Well, well, its a profit and loss, isnt it , so well, well, its a profit and loss, isnt it, so on the on the losing side. Yes. Its upset a number of labour mps and especially women labour mps who dont like the way that, Natalie Elphicke defended her husband while he was being , being while he was being, being convicted of sex abuse , on the convicted of sex abuse, on the plus side, there are certain things where she does go along with labour values that she is a Housing Finance expert. Shes talked about that freezing private rents to help with the cost of living. Shes talked about more houses need to be built. Shes talked about no fault of no fault evictions should be banned. So that kind of goes with the labour side. If i was drawing up a list of tory mps who might defect, she wouldnt have been on it. She is a right winger , and so it came a right winger, and so it came as a complete surprise to all of us when we heard about it. I suspect that shes been promised something, because the other intriguing thing about this story is that she isnt standing for re election at the next general election. Weve already got a labour candidate for dover and deal. Therefore shes just switching for this period. We understand shes unimpressed with the government on a number of different levels. On a number of different levels. Theres some talk in the observer this morning that she was annoyed that she didnt get offered a junior ministerial post by rishi sunak. All of these could be reasons, but at these could be reasons, but at the same time its. Just odd to the same time its. Just odd to see her at the heart of labour. She doesnt really belong there. It looks cynical and it therefore looks as if labour is perhaps promised her something for her switching loyalty. Could for her switching loyalty. Could she be in line for a peerage . Perhaps . Labour . Say not. They say that was never dangled there before. Now they have said that before. Now they have said that before. They also said it said before. They also said it said it about dan poulter, who was the previous defector. Yes. That the previous defector. Yes. That peerages didnt come up. I dont think well know the answer to that one until keir starmer is Prime Minister and hes in a position to hand the peerages out. Okay. You talked about other defections. If there is a list going , the sun is reporting the going, the sun is reporting the sun on sunday that there are three tories in kie defection talks. I three tories in kie defection talks. I mean, we cant three tories in kie defection talks. I mean, we cant really talks. I mean, we cant really speculate as to who they might be, but do you think there will be, but do you think there will be more defections . Yes, i do actually. And i think that theyll probably come from the one nation group of tory mps. The question for the tory mps. The question for the one nation group is there is a battle going on for the heart and soul of the conservative party youve got right wingers on one side trying to drag it over to the right, that is not popular with the one nation group of moderates. If. Group of moderates. If. They can actually stay put and influence that debate, i think theyll stay put if they decide, look, the game is up. Frankly, were going to lose the election and lose it badly. I can see a few a few of those defecting. I mean, ive had conversations myself with a few people and not about defection, but about the labour party and their views of the Labour Party Party and the way keir starmer has changed it. So thats been interesting to see thats been interesting to see that they where once theyd have dismissed the labour party out of hand under jeremy corbyn, now of hand underjeremy corbyn, now they dont. Now theyre entertaining it. Now theyre entertaining it. Shall we move on to europol outlets . I know you love your eurovision, nigel. Did you watch it from start to finish last night . I did watch it from start to finish. Really . I avoided it like the plague. Ive never really got into it. Its. Its a wonderful piece of silliness. And thats why its so entertaining. I probably silliness is welcome, although there was nothing particularly silly about the protests outside, or indeed, the protests outside, or indeed, the way that the israeli candidate was made to feel on stage with all of the booing. Yeah, i mean, i found most of the booing was was reserved for the, the European Broadcast Union , which organises, union, which organises, organises eurovision and that was because they allowed israel in in. The first place, now i in in. The first place, now i obviously eden golan and the singer has nothing to do with whats going on. But back home, and on the basis of that, i was pleased to see her able to perform and also the public vote afterwards. Yeah, the public vote. I think the judges put her at 12 and thanks to the public vote, she got up to fifth. Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. My argument would be shes a 20 year old girl. Shes there to perform. Shes got the right to be proud of her own nation. Absolutely. And i dont know why she did feel that intimidated. Id also beg the question of what on earth Greta Thunberg was doing there. Is this got something to do with Climate Change . I mean , i appreciate the change . I mean, i appreciate the eco warriors say that everythings to do with Climate Change. This cup of tea, your glasses, this remote control. Glasses, this remote control. But im not sure if eurovision is no. And i felt much the same way about that. That as well. I dont think eurovision is. I mean, the whole thing about eurovision is to try and take politics out of it, but the big complaint is a question of if they treat everybody equally. They treat everybody equally. Vie so russia was then thrown out of eurovision , two years out of eurovision, two years ago, and that was because of invading ukraine. Now we have israel in gaza, and the question there is, is there an equivalence . Now what the ebu say is, no, theres not. Theyre saying that the reason that russia was expelled was because their state broadcaster was was broadcasting propaganda. And that goes against their rules on free speech. Yes. There arguing that israel is not doing the same thing. Im sure therell be other people who are saying would would say completely differently. Differently. Time is of the essence. So lets move on to this story about George Galloway, which is in the sunday times. Galloway they allege, lied to millions onune they allege, lied to millions online that mrs. Zelenskyy blew 1 million on jewellery and this is a story really about whether he is being a, quote, useful idiot for russia in trying to smear mrs. Zelenskyy. But on a wider level, i mean, the subdeck of this headline is suggesting that he hasnt been seen much in the constituency of rochdale since he got elected. How much since he got elected. How much of a threat is galloway to the labour party . Do you think you might keep rochdale the general election beyond that . I dont think hes a threat at all, we, even these people who want to be signed up to the Workers Party or indeed the fact that hes rabble rousing a lot of pro palestinian candidates. Of pro palestinian candidates. Yes. Yes. Even then, i mean, his his best signing so far was the england cricket star monty panesan england cricket star monty panesar. And he backed out and he backed out. After seven days, he backed out. After seven days, he decided the Workers Party wasnt for him, in fact. In fact, it doesnt look like politics is actually for him. So that was a big signing , george that was a big signing, George Galloway made a lot of that, put him on a lot of , tv interviews, him on a lot of, tv interviews, and now hes moved away. So at and now hes moved away. So at the end of it all, its a tiny party. George galloway might keep his seat, his own seat. The keep his seat, his own seat. The idea of other people getting seats, i think is unlikely. Okay, lets have a very quick word about the royals. Okay . Weve got the sussexes in nigeria. Theyre sort of putting on their own royal tour, which is interesting. I wouldnt mind your reaction to this story, nigel king calls up the b team, and this is the suggestion in the mail on sunday that princess beatrice, whos the eldest daughter of the duke and duchess of york, might be called up to support the king in some of his duties. She isnt a working royal, but in the absence of the prince of wales, might she be an asset to the team . Nigel . Yes, i think so. And whats just happened over at the palace is theyve had a workload review to see what charles does and what he doesnt do. Hes got a thousand royal patronages. Theyre looking at about, trying to reduce that number not just with his cancer. He is bear in mind 75. So the idea is draft in some of the younger royals, b maybe even her sister eugenie and get them to help him out. And thats okay. I mean, we appreciate the duke of york. Nobody necessarily wants to revive his royal career, but the daughters, they have a good reputation, i think. Yeah, they do like them. And i dont think the sins of the father can be can be visited on the daughters. Quite right. Nigel nelson, thank you very much indeed for your wisdom and experience this morning. Lovely to see you. Coming up next, former secretary of state for the environment George Eustice is going to be joining me in the studio. Dont go anywhere welcome back to gb news. Youre watching the Camilla Tominey show. George eustice, the mp for camborne and redruth. And also the former environment secretary, joins me in the studio now. Thank you for coming in, george. Lovely to see you. Should we start with Natalie Elphicke . Because if you want elphicke . Because if you want to. Yes. Yes. Why are you reluctant to. I mean, the word weird springs to mind. That was so strange on mind. That was so strange on wednesday. What did you make of it all, yeah. Well, she is quite an erratic, you know, individual , erratic politician. So it is an unusual. Do you mean by that . What do you mean by that . What i think shes a bit, a bit unpredictable. Shes. Its never quite clear to work out where shes been on the political spectrum or what . What she wants, i have to say, i kind of rather assume that she was going to carry on and stand again and. And had assumed that the seat in dover would she could stand as a labour candidate. And i dont know whether i mean, she didnt announce she was going. I think, when she first said it. That came a few hours later, and i sort of wonder whether she assumed it would come her way. But i dont know. I mean, you know, we can only obviously look at is she would you categorise her as a loss to the conservative party . How would you categorise it . How would you categorise it . Well, look, i think shes, shes been a difficult, shes been an outlier within the conservative party. So i dont quite know how she fits within the labour party, to be honest. And i think the real, you know, the real thing here. And weve seen, obviously, further stories coming out that, this has backfired a bit on keir starmer. And i think the lesson for him is its not just about doing something clever for pmqs and getting a defector to sit behind you on the benches for that one off event. You do have to think a bit about these sorts of decisions and the message youre trying to convey as a party, and people want to see that theres an Opposition Leader who looks like hes a Prime Minister in waiting, thinking about the serious things not, you know, flitting around, trying to find a defector to get some tactical gain. And i think thats its gain. And i think thats its backfired on him. And i suspect that the shadow cabinet will be saying to keir starmer, never again do Something Like this without consulting us first. And getting our agreement for it. I mean, nigel nelson suggesting that there may be more defections on the cards that one nation tories are looking at labour and thinking, well, theyre much improved since the corbyn days. Maybe we since the corbyn days. Maybe we should entertain this because we want to retain our seats. Want to retain our seats. Well, i think thats quite a dishonourable way to behave and my view on defectors im, i probably similar to, to David Cameron on this. I think everyone when you go into politics, you choose a party thats the closest to your own views , and everyone in politics views, and everyone in politics will have some issues where they differ from the mainstream view in their own party, whether theyre labour or conservative. But under our system, you pick a party thats closest to your views. And my view is you should stick with them. And look, as stick with them. And look, as a backbenchen stick with them. And look, as a backbencher, if there are things the governments doing that you disagree with, well then you are free to vote the other way and to vote with the opposition on certain bits of legislation. But i think defections are its quite a dishonourable way to behave , in my view. I think its behave, in my view. I think its quite craven. I think it says more about the individual who defects than it does about the party that theyre defecting from, it wasnt a great week last week because as well as the defection, we then had Nadhim Zahawi, whos a very experienced former cabinet minister deciding that hes going to stand down at the next general election. That the next general election. That takes a number of tories who are going to stand to down 64. Youre one of those number, does that show a lack of faith in government . Your decision, his decision. Dominic raabs and others to not stand again . No, it doesnt. No, it doesnt. And i think people can, read too much into this. If you look at 2019, a lot of people stood down there. And in fact, you can look at any general election down the ages 2010 election, lots of people stood down, lots of labour mps stood down. At that point. It doesnt show much confidence in rishi sunak, though. I think its more the case that you know, the days of somebody becoming an mp and then wanting to stay there right to the end and right through retirement. I think people theres changed. Peoples aspirations have changed. In my in my case, ill be 53 by the time the next election. A young whippersnapper. A young whippersnapper. Well, exactly. Well, exactly. But young enough to do something else. And ive always been someone in life. When i was David Camerons press secretary, but decided to close the chapter on that and move on to become an mp. Ive always been someone in life who believes he shouldnt unger life who believes he shouldnt linger on the final page of the chapter, you should, you know, proactively close that chapter and move to on the next chapter in life. And thats what im doing. I think its what many of my colleagues are doing as well. And it happened as your colleagues. Also just putting a finger in there and thinking to themselves, im probably going to lose my seat. I dont want to be in opposition for years. Therefore, im getting out now and it does seem a little bit like people are jumping off a sinking ship. Well, i dont really agree because i think theyll have different, different mps. Will have different reasons. Some will want more time with their family, some will want a change of career like me. Some will be close to retirement and feel that its time to step down. They all have different reasons. They all have different reasons. The key thing is this is not a new phenomenon. So more mps stood down in 2019 after that dreadful, deadlock that we had over brexit. Yes, a very large number of mps stood down in 2010. This is often the way that it goes. People do, you know, ten, 15, 20 years sometimes in parliament and then they want a change. So you do get elections where people decide to stand down and you sometimes get more standing down in some elections than others. But every election has a lot of mps who, consciously themselves decide that they want a change and step down. Just before we go on to talk about sort of the tories electoral hopes, you mentioned David Cameron there. Obviously you know him very well. Lots of people are saying that hes positioning himself to return as leader of the conservative party at some point. Hes recording these very slick videos at the Foreign Office, and hes almost acting like pm overseas. Do you acting like pm overseas. Do you agree with that analysis, i would be surprised if David Cameron wanted to come back and, you know, lead the conservative party. Hes done that before. Now my reading is it and i know David Cameron obviously quite well, having been his press secretary. Hes actually a hes a very public spirited person. And i think he would have felt looking around the world, that there are all sorts of massive global challenges. His the war global challenges. His the war in ukraine, the situation in gaza and you know, when he had the call from rishi sunak to say, would you come and help us on this and be foreign secretary . Its really not complicated. David cameron just complicated. David cameron just would have thought ive, ive had the call. Ive been asked and ive got a duty to do this for my country. If people think ive got something to ask something to, to offer, then i should do that. And i think thats all it was, really. And im delighted that hes back, because i think hes brought some gravitas to our Foreign Policy position. I think hes carefully recalibrated our stance on israel and gaza. Its very difficult. But i think early on there was a danger that the government werent quite getting that right. They were. You know, a bit too much on israels side and not enough recognising the illegal settlements and some of the things that israel had got wrong. And i think David Camerons carefully recalibrated that actually, in a good way. So im delighted that hes back. I think hes throwing himself at it with an immense amount of energy. But i would be surprised if he wanted to return to being leader. I know youre also quite close to Boris Johnson. Would you be surprised if he wanted to return as leader . Return as leader . I would actually, yes, and i think yes, i think its i think were overblowing this in the press that this idea of these cincinnatus style comebacks, i think it doesnt happen very often in our system. Look, in an american president ial system, youve almost got these political dynasties and, you know, the people can come back and the, the wife or the son of and the, the wife or the son of a president actually ends up being president himself. Ten, 20 years later, a bit like the bush or the clintons, for instance, under our system, it tends not to happen. Its a very contested system. And in some ways more meritocratic in that a with anyone can become Prime Minister, whether theyve got financial means or not. The sense that hes obviously hinted at it, and also this desire to sort of appear churchillian. Obviously, Winston Churchill had a second term, you know, after hed had a break from politics and this suggestion he might do the same thing. But you dont think thats on the cards . Well see. I think its unlikely. If im honest. I think under our system you you have your shot at it. Its exhausting while you do it. You know, in both boris and davids case, they they did it for three years and six years, respectively. And they probably feel theyve theyve done that bit. But do you think the tories would be in a better place right now if Boris Johnson was still at the helm . I mean, the polling is looking dire. Youve got big beasts jumping ship, youve got mps defecting and maybe more to follow. Rishi sunak says his plan is working. It doesnt seem to be working because its not moving the dial, is it . Well i think the challenge here is and you know, it was very difficult in those final months with Boris Johnson because, you know, he had lost the confidence of the conservative party with all of those rows about parties and the trouble is, a Prime Minister cant really carry on once theyve lost the confidence of their own party, in essence. And thats thats what had happened. Soi and thats thats what had happened. So i remained loyal to bofis happened. So i remained loyal to Boris Johnson to the end. I know partly for the reason that under our system, its actually not easy to change party leader and change Prime Minister when youre in government, its quite a risky thing to do. Its not an easy manoeuvre to do. And weve tried to do that now several times, you know, with David Cameron, when we had theresa may and then we had, you know, Boris Johnson and then of course, liz truss , briefly, its very truss, briefly, its very difficult. And i think the more chopping and changing weve done, the more the public have also created a settled view that theyre not sure that they want to give us another go. And i appreciate what youre saying there, because i think there has been far too much chopping and changing. However if the tories lose the next general election, rishi sunaks not going to stay at the helm, is he . Well, unlikely. But i mean, when Prime Ministers lose elections, they do. You know, in this day and age they tend to step down. But look my view on rishi got any skin in the game post. Whenever the election is okay youre going to go off and do something else. So tell me genuinely, who would you like to see run the conservative party after rishi sunak . Who would be your pick , i know there isnt your pick, i know there isnt a vacancy now, but just tell me. Well, theres not a vacancy and we dont also know who will be around after the election and who might be left from the wreckage. Im going to, you know, avoid the temptation to get into that, mainly, george. Well, for two reasons. One is, i wont be an mp at that point anyway, because im standing down. I wont be someone who you think, actually, they could do a good job. Youve been an mp for a long time now. You know these people. You see them in the tea room. Penny. Pretty suella tugendhat robert jenrick. Well, my view at the moment is i support rishi sunak in this and i want to explain why i do want to, you know, fun. George, honestly, the truth is, and it comes back to these various defections. You know, rishi sunak does not deserve having these defections. He is absolutely working his socks off. Hes doing it against an incredibly difficult backdrop. Hes hes inherited a very difficult set of circumstances, both internationally and with the economy as well. I know, but he was the chancellor. Hes worked very hard, his own legacy. Yes, but look what hes inherited, his own legacy of spending billions on furlough and beyond. Well, but hes also now got inflation back under control. Thats coming down. The economys back in growth i think hes been at this juncture what we needed a steady hand on the tiller to basically stabilise the economy, which is so important to get that back in shape. I think hes done that. And i think the party has got to really just get behind him and show loyalty and go into this election and noises off and people thinking it looks clever for them to defect. We just need to, have a reality check and actually get behind the work. Rishi sunaks doing okay. Hes working his socks off to get this party re elected. We know hes working hard. We know hes working hard. We know hes working hard. We actually we owe it to him to get behind him and support him in this are fast running out of time. George, i just wanted to ask you really quickly, really quick answer. Water pollution, the state of the thames, the state of our rivers. As a former environment secretary, in a nutshell, should Water Companies be doing more about this . I mean , our audience is exasperated, angry and frustrated about this issue. Well, if you look at the thames, the big decision to solve that problem was actually taken ten years ago when i was in the department, and its the thames tideway tunnel. Its a massive piece of infrastructure about to open. Yes. And so long about to open. Yes. And so long before people were talking about Water Pollution in the news, defra was on the case. And do you have confidence that will help clean up . Absolutely. Its a huge Infrastructure Project and its going to when you get flash rainfall, its going to welcome back. So much more to come in the next hour , ill be come in the next hour, ill be joined by labours resident attack dog, Jonathan Ashworth and David Camerons right hand man, Andrew Mitchell. But first, heres the news with tatiana sanchez. Heres the news with tatiana sanchez. Camila, thank you very sanchez. Camila, thank you very much. The top stories from the gb news room at 10 00 claims a british israeli hostage has died in gaza, are being urgently investigated by the Foreign Office. Hamas says Nadav Popplewell, who was kidnapped. Popplewell, who was kidnapped. Dufing popplewell, who was kidnapped. During the october attack in israel, was injured during an airstrike a month ago. The government says its seeking more information after the terrorist group made the claim. In a video , undated footage of in a video, undated footage of the 51 year old with a black eye confirming his name was also published. The Foreign Office says its working with partners to secure the release of all hostages, including british nationals. Tory defector natalie nationals. Tory defector Natalie Elphicke denies she lobbied the justice secretary over her then husbands sex offences trial. Sir Robert Buckland claims the mp, who crossed the floor to laboun mp, who crossed the floor to labour, requested the case to be moved to a lower profile court. Speaking to the sunday times, he says she was told the request was completely inappropriate. Her spokesperson refuted the accusation , describing it as accusation, describing it as nonsense. In the daily mail, mrs. Elphicke ended the marriage when her husband was convicted of sexually assaulting two women and jailed for two years. In other news, parents of children older than nine months can now apply for funded childcare starting from september this yeah starting from september this year. Applications is open today for those whose children reach that age by august 31st. It is the second step of the governments expanded childcare offer for working families of younger children in england. Parents of two year olds have been able to access 15 hours of funded childcare since last month. The full rollout will see month. The full rollout will see support increase to 30 hours a week by september next year. The department for health says. All local authorities have reported theyre currently meeting the demand from parents for childcare places. Switzerland childcare places. Switzerland has won eurovision following a contest mired in protests hundred and 25 the winner, the champion of the eurovision nemo, the first non binary performer to take the trophy, is the first swiss act to win it since celine dion took the prize in 1988, but the contest was overshadowed with pro Palestinian Protesters whod gathered outside the arena before and during contesting israels participation. While israels participation. While israels eden golan finished in fifth place, including getting 12 points from the uks public vote. There was some booing when she performed a more audible booing when israel handed out their scores. And thunderstorms their scores. And thunderstorms could bring britains warm spell to a dramatic end this afternoon. Yesterday was confirmed as the hottest day of the year so far. Temperatures are forecast to hit 25 degrees again today in parts of southern and central england, but the forecast isnt all sunshine in Western Areas of england, wales and scotland and Northern Ireland. A met Office Yellow alert for thunderstorms with heavy showers is set to come into force from midday on. And for the latest stories, you can sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen, or go to gb news. Carmelites. Now back to. Camilla. Thanks, tatiana. Welcome back to the Camilla Tominey show. To the Camilla Tominey show. Still lots more to come in just a minute. Im going to be joined by labours shadow paymaster general, Jonathan Ashworth, to discuss the extraordinary defection of Natalie Elphicke. Then ill be speaking to the Deputy Foreign secretary , andrew Deputy Foreign secretary, Andrew Mitchell, about the latest round of tory instability and the rwanda plan. Ill also be speaking to former minister sir conor burns about the future of conservatism, whether he agrees with George Eustice about whether Boris Johnson might consider staging a comeback. And ill be speaking to the author, will hutton, about his new book how to remake britain, which argues that capitalism must be repurposed to work for the common good. So that should. Be common good. So that should. Be an interesting chat. But lets bnng an interesting chat. But lets bring Jonathan Ashworth into the conversation now. Hes the labour mp for leicester south, as well as being the shadow paymaster general. Im describing him as labours resident attack dog because thats what he seems to be these days. Mr ashworth, lovely to see you. This is Natalie Elphicke. Defections absolutely backfired , defections absolutely backfired, hasnt it . What on earth was keir starmer thinking . This woman is a rabid right winger whos attacked labour, and now we find out that shes tried to cover up with the help of the former justice secretary, robert formerjustice secretary, Robert Buckland. Her ex husbands conviction for Sexual Assault allegations. Allegations. Well, first of all, camilla, im a pussycat, as you know, not an attack dog, but more generally, i think the defection reveals the decay and disintegration of the tory government before our eyes. Yes, she has said that the interpretation of events is not one that she recognises, that it is nonsense. But i think her is nonsense. But i think her move is as what is happening across the country with people who have been conservative all their lives or perhaps shifted their lives or perhaps shifted their vote from labour to conservative in more recent years, are shifting now to the labour party, led by keir starmer, because theyve had enough of 14 years of failure. They want to turn the page on 14 years of failure, and they know that another five years of the conservatives with their £46 billion black hole in their plans, would mean tax rises for pensioners or cuts the nhs or a borrowing bonanza putting mortgages up again. And thats one way of spinning it. I mean, the other way of spinning it could be that it shows a extraordinary amount of political cynicism by keir starmer, and that labour must have promised her something for this because she isnt standing, is she . Youve got your own labour candidate in dover. So what have you promised her . Will it be baroness elphicke of dover . Come 2025 . No, we dont make promises. We dont do deals. I think you do, because you have given deals to people in the past, havent you . Well, you the past, havent you . Well, you did give a deal to davies , did give a deal to davies, wasnt it . Who was the. Who was the tory who defected to you , the tory who defected to you, whats the first name . Nigels with me. Its. With me. Its. An mp called davies back in the day. And lo and behold, about 18 months later, he ended up with a peerage from labour back in the day. So you dont take responsibility for cronyism in days gone by, well, no, i dont take responsibility for things. I had nothing to do with, you know, umpteen years ago. No, i dont that is. So youre guaranteeing i dont do that in life . No youre guaranteeing that Natalie Elphicke will not end up with a peerage under a Labour Government, are you . There is no, no, no deal. No deal has been done. No promises not asked you that Natalie Elphicke was decent, was disillusioned with the failure to help young people get onto the housing ladder , the housing ladder, disillusioned with the tory failure to bring order to the borders and stop the boats, she looked at Keir Starmers labour party. She sees thats the change this country needs , and change this country needs, and she moved over as thousands and thousands of conservatives across the country are doing. I just want to say this, i am not a very tribal kind of guy. Let me say this. Ive got friends. Ive got relations, ive got neighbours who are conservatives. Theyre not my enemy. Theyre my theyre my friends. And relations. And i want those people, as many of them are , to people, as many of them are, to shift their vote to labour at the next general election. The next general election. Yeah. Just to say that the mp who was rewarded for his defection to labour was quentin davies. I defection to labour was quentin davies. I knew defection to labour was quentin davies. I knew it was davies defection to labour was quentin davies. I knew it was davies in two thousand and seven, but can you just give me a guarantee because you didnt quite answer that question, mr ashworth , i that question, mr ashworth, i asked you, can you give me a guarantee . If you havent done guarantee . If you havent done any deals, you should be able to do this. That Natalie Pinnell will not be given a peerage under a future Labour Government. Give me that guarantee this morning. I can give you. I can give you a guarantee that no deals have been done. Now, thats not the same. And you know it. The same. And you know it. Responsible for lords of. Im responsible for lords of. Im not responsible for lords appointments. I dont have that power. If i did, id be putting you in the lords. Camilla. But i dont have that power, sadly so. But i can guarantee you that no deal has been done. No promises have been made. Have been made. You know, youre answering a different question to the one im asking you. I mean, me and the lords. I think the country suffered enough. Mr ashworth, youre not going to answer that. So lets move on. Do you really think that the public should be convinced by Keir Starmers boast to stop the boats and bnng boast to stop the boats and bring immigration down when hes literally spent his entire political career advocating open borders . In fact, back in the day , he once commented, he once day, he once commented, he once commented that there is a racist undercurrent that permeates all immigration law. Well, we calculate, i think theres a report which calculated that he is repeatedly voted against more border control, repeatedly voted against the rwanda plan. Here we are , the Henry Jackson society. Are, the Henry Jackson society. Between 2015 and 2022, starmer voted 14 times against stricter asylum system and abstained 22 times, never voting in favour of stricter measures. Stricter measures. No, no, he voted against hopeless measures that wouldnt work and he worked. I mean, work and he worked. I mean, whats the latest figures . 8 or 9000 have crossed hundreds every day. Have all these things we voted against worked . No. And we said we wouldnt work. They wouldnt work. Thats why we wouldnt work. Thats why we voted against him. We said this incompetent government wouldnt be able to get a grip of it. Its why weve talked about a Border Security command bringing together the police, the intelligence service. Its like why weve said used terrorist style laws to go after the smugglers , like, you know, smugglers, like, you know, control orders, stop and search, search warrants for premises. These things arent being used at the moment. These things arent being used at the moment. Weve got to get at the moment. Weve got to get tough with these smuggling gangs. Thats exactly how we would approach this. And by the way, that massive backlog with people in hotels, around 36,000 people in hotels, around 36,000 people in hotels , thats like a people in hotels, thats like a big neon flashing light to these smugglers saying , big neon flashing light to these smugglers saying, come to big neon flashing light to these smugglers saying , come to the big neon flashing light to these smugglers saying, come to the uk because all that will happen is that youll be in a hotel paid for by the taxpayer, and the government will do nothing about it. No, were going to call time on that racket. Were going to get are you going to process the applications . And if people dont have the right to be here, they will be sent back to their countries of origin. If they dont have the right to be here, are you going to turn boats around back to france . Now . We around back to france . Now . We have said we are going to put in place a proper Border Security command, and were going to deal with this problem at root by going after these exploitative criminal gangsters who are putting people on these boats. Were going to cooperate. Cross were going to cooperate. Cross border, yes, but were going to use terrorist style laws to go after them. How quickly are you going to clear this backlog . Could you give us a time frame . Give us a time frame . Im not going to give you a false time frame, because how many times you had a tory minister on your show giving you a time frame, and it turns out to be absolute nonsense. So weve got to look at the, the its not quite the books, but you need the point that im making is, look, we dont know when a general election is. It could be this summer. It could be november. Weve got to look at the situation properly. Were going to look at the people who are in the or in the backlog and then come to a realistic assessment. And well be honest with you at that point, but were not going to make you false promises. Gb news viewers are six of the six of the back teeth of politicians, making false promises they know they cant deliver, if the rwanda plan isnt working, why do you think that migrants are trying to get into ireland via Northern Ireland . Well, it isnt working, is it . Because theres still hundreds and hundreds of people crossing in boats every day. And the rwanda plan was only ever, ever going to be about 1, 1. What about the other 99 . I mean, its about 1 of processing a huge amount of money. But but let me ask you this, mr ashworth, if it does actually end up proving to be a deterrent, just if it does is youre still going to scrap it, but its not going to be a deterrent because it isnt a deterrent because it isnt a deterrent , but its acting as deterrent, but its acting as a deterrent, but its acting as a deterrent already, isnt it . Deterrent already, isnt it . Because of the ireland situation, many people cross last week, how many people appreciate i appreciate that, but if ireland is a little test case of this, its a curious deterrence as a curious deterrent. If people are still crossing the boat, crossing in boats every day, thats a curious deterrent. Ill pull the. But if , if, if. But if, if, if. But if, if, if. Im just saying, hypothetically, if flights start taking off and it does seem to be acting as more of a deterrent and say between now and the time and say between now and the time a Labour Government comes in, if those boat crossings do go down and it looks as if its working, because we had a similar system in australia and at the time labour opposed it. And now, lo and behold, the Labour Government has embraced it because its working. What im saying is, if it does work, youre still going to scrap it. Youre still going to scrap it. Its not going to work. I mean, they tried this in israel. Mean, they tried this in israel. They tried to do a deal with rwanda. It didnt work. There actually increased people trafficking , but theres trafficking, but theres thousands of people crossing in these boats. And the fact that people know that once they get here and they get in the asylum system, they get put up in a hotel and they never get processed. That is a massive, massive incentive to. So that is the thing that we need. Well, where will you put these people up and youre not going to put them up in hotels . Where are you going to put them up . Them up . Were going to process them and were going to send them back. If they dont have the right to. How quickly were going to put 1000, were going to put a thousand. We think we can do that in the in the first 12 months, were going to put 1000 new staff into our into a returns and Enforcement Unit to do just that. And were going to put a 1200 people into a processing unit to process the backlog in asylum applications. I mean, Something Like 36,000 people in these hotels costing about £8 million a day, £8 million of taxpayers money a day. And the tories just go, oh, we cant do anything about it. I mean, give me we talk about how can we talk about order to the borders. Can you tell me about how youre going to accommodate what is predicted to be 40,000 private School Pupils whose. Private School Pupils whose. Parents wont be able to afford the fees if labour puts vat on them, who are then going to have to go into the public sector, how are you going to accommodate those children . 40,000 children might be driven out of private schools by your policy. Youre always arguing that schools are already overcrowded. So what already overcrowded. So what will you do . Build temporary classrooms or. Classrooms or. Well, first of all, i dont believe that scaremongering. I believe that scaremongering. I mean, the times splashed on it yesterday and it turns out its what, Something Like 0. 1 or something. 2. 7 mongering. I mean, the, the reality is , mean, the, the reality is, because of the, the public finances are shot to pieces because the decisions taken by the conservatives, weve got to make some tough decisions. Weve make some tough decisions. Weve got to make some tough decisions to change taxation in order to use that money to Fund Mental Health support in every, state sector school, to expand our teaching workforce in state sector schools. These are tough decisions. And no, private schools dont like it. I know theyve spoken out, but in the same way that the state sector has had to make tough accommodations in some ways, the private sector could look to some of the tough accommodations , that the state sector have made. But we do have to look government is difficult. Its about choices. Youve got to make tough choices. But i think in the end, if you can improve Mental Health support in schools across the board for the 90 odd percent, the vast , vast majority percent, the vast, vast majority of children, when we know that so many are suffering from Mental Health problems, i think thatis Mental Health problems, i think that is an important and welcome step. And what about the Mental Health of private School Pupils who may be plucked from their School Environment and taken away from their friends . What away from their friends . What about their mental Mental Health . Well, look, i dont believe i dont believe there will be that flow of numbers from the private sector to the state. I would imagine the Independent School Council Knows better than you and they say that 40,000 might leave. So what about their Mental Health . Genuinely . Well , well look genuinely . Well, well look i dont i dont i dont accept those figures. I disagree with the Independent School council on that front. But in the end, look, look, look, if the tories have made a mess of the public finances as they have, you have got to take some tough decisions somewhere. And we believe this is one of those tough decisions where we can raise money to expand Mental Health support and teaching support in the state sector for the vast, vast majority of children. Majority of children. All right. Jonathan ashworth as ever, lovely to speak to you this morning. Thank you very much indeed. Bye bye. Bye. Much indeed. Bye bye. Bye. In just a minute, im going to be asking the Deputy Foreign secretary, Andrew Mitchell, why hes now supporting the rwanda plan. Having welcome back to the Camilla Tominey show on gb news. Im delighted to be joined again by nigel nelson, senior political commentator gbnews, because were waiting for Andrew Mitchell, the Deputy Foreign secretary, to be ready to speak to gb news, Jonathan Ashworth has had his, weetabix this morning. Other Breakfast Cereals are available. He cant quite answer that question of whether elphicke is going to end up with a peerage. I mean, its a peerage. I mean, its interesting that because im asking him, can you guarantee that she wont end up with a peerage . And he couldnt. He just can guarantee that no deals have been done. I was citing the previous case. Youll remember it, nigel. My. I had brain fog and the name escaped me. Quentin davies in two thousand and seven defected to labour and lo and behold, about 18 months later, he was ennobled. Yeah i mean, its the obvious kind of reward that you give mps who abandon their own party and join another one. And youre absolutely right. I mean, jonathan couldnt actually say that, that Natalie Elphicke or dan poulter will not end up with peerages at the end of it. I mean, what he was repeating was the labour line. And certainly i got this from the labour party. What theyre saying is none of these things were dangled before them as an inducement to, to defect. So it may be down the defect. So it may be down the line that they will get a peerage, but i think jonathan was absolutely right when he said no deals have been done. What he couldnt do is guarantee that sometime in the future they may not they may not end up in the house of lords. No, i mean, you know it. He made a good argument, to be fair, in favour of like the spinning of it. In a way. It was quite clever , you know, to just quite clever, you know, to just say, well, it doesnt matter who she is or what shes like, it just suggests that, you know, the conservatives have had enough. The conservatives have had enough. And he kind of likened enough. And he kind of likened it to his own relatives. And this idea, theyre trying to use her as an example of how easy it is to switch. From tory to is to switch. From tory to laboun is to switch. From tory to labour, because thats what they need people to do at the end of the day. Although, interestingly, did you see that comment by where have i got it, neil kinnock basically saying, where is it, i just wanted to find the precise quote , because find the precise quote, because i was going to ask him and we ran out of time. The public is not in love with labour. Hes making the point. The former labour leader, that actually keir starmer isnt really doing it for the electorate. I would it for the electorate. I would agree with that. Youre not coming out going, keir starmer in the way that they did for tony blair. No. No. And i think i think we have to actually accept this is not 1997. N0 to actually accept this is not 1997. No and at the moment what it is, is disillusioned with the tory party. Its partly the thing that that that happens at after a partys been in for a long time. Theyve had 14 years here, 14 years is really past your sell by date , same thing your sell by date, same thing happened with margaret thatcher. She lasted for 13 years. People became disillusioned with that. Became disillusioned with that. New labour lasted for 13 years, and out they went. And out they went. So unlucky. 13 it seems, well, unlucky. 13 this sort of made one yean 13 this sort of made one year, one year further forward, which is held a bit. And the other thing i thought was quite interesting. They are sticking to this plan to scrap vat relief for private schools, arent they . So i mean, i still think its the politics of envy. I think its very difficult for them to give an answer to the question of what does happen to those private School Pupils. Every shadow minister that comes on, i ask this question. They cant answer it, nigel. They say, oh, the figures are overblown. You have to accept, dont you, that there are going to be thousands of kids whose parents wont be able to afford the fees . Will there therefore have to pull them out . And by the way, this policy, its fine if youre sending your kids to eton or winchester or Marlborough College because youre super wealthy, then anyway , this is going to affect anyway, this is going to affect people who are really struggling to pay fees at much smaller, Independent Schools , well, you Independent Schools, well, you wont be surprised. Im actually in favour of the policy on the bafis in favour of the policy on the basis that just the principle of it. I dont think that i think people should spend their money as they wish. If they want to go send their kids to a private school, if they want private health, thats fine. What shouldnt be happening is the taxpayer shouldnt be subsidising it. So thats why taking away , say, the vat break taking away, say, the vat break they get i think is absolutely right when it comes to the fingers. We just dont know, that well. And then at best its reckless. Well a lot of well i mean every, every time you make a policy kids youre dealing with, i mean, its all very well. Labour saying labour cant just be the party of state school children. Its got to be the party of all children. Well i think that is right. But the question is, should should parents be getting a tax break on the choice that they want to make . They could go and send their kids to a to a different school. When it comes to the figures, we dont know. Schools are trying to get around this. One of the ideas that some private schools have got is you pay private schools have got is you pay fees in advance, which would mean you would dodge the vat. If labour comes to power and schools are saying, you know, theyll give you a reduction if you pay theyll give you a reduction if you pay your fees in advance to a certain extent, but that they still have to at some point accommodate the difference between vat and non vat. Between vat and non vat. Its going to be passed on to parents. Nigel. It depends on the party knows that. It depends on the school and an awful lot of schools have got legacies. They get donations. It may be that they can absorb the cost. We dont know. Thats what i mean about you cant work out the numbers who might have to be withdrawn by parents who can no longer afford it, and those who would end up staying. Yeah, im still hearing that. We cant get Andrew Mitchell at the moment. So were going to carry on our conversation. We are trying, says our producer keith, in my ear. Ashworths an interesting figure, isnt he . Ive done quite a lot of work with him on the kind of children of alcoholic space. Were both patrons of the same charity, the National Association for children of alcoholics and i have described him as labours resident attack dog. There because he is quite good at that sort of positioning. He sort of goes on the media and he likes to have a go. Starmer needs that because starmer is i mean, he tries to be an attack dog, but he sort of resembles a little puppy he sort of resembles a little puppy , do he sort of resembles a little puppy , do you think . I mean, puppy, do you think . I mean, Angela Rayner would have been the attack dog. We havent seen a media appearance. No, i think in 45 days. Apparently Angela Rayner really cant go out in the pubuc really cant go out in the public at the moment until weve actually sorted out her tax affairs over her accounts. Council house, yes. I think Jonathan Ashworth was is really good, i was sorry to see he was moved from the health brief. Sorry, nigel, to interrupt you, but Andrew Mitchell is with us now. The Deputy Foreign secretary and the mp for sutton coldfield. Mr mitchell, i hope you can hear me. We had a few technical problems. You can hear you very well. Yes, right. We havent got as yes, right. We havent got as much time as i thought. We have. So can we just start by talking about Nadav Popplewell . This is the british israeli who we think now has been killed by hamas. Now has been killed by hamas. One of the hostages. Can you tell us any more about that, mr mitchell . Because the family mitchell . Because the family must be in pieces. They see this video of this chap whos alive, and then hamas seem to be now saying that hes dead , i cant saying that hes dead, i cant add anything to what is publicly known, but my heart goes out to the family at this extraordinary time with the barbarism of these appalling terrorists who, have treated the family in such a cynical, cruel and heartless, way. And, we must wait for way. And, we must wait for further information , to become further information, to become available. But, what an appalling, dreadful experience for this poor family to have to suffer at the hands of this this absolutely dreadful terrorist organisation. I mean, youre talking about hamas being dreadful. Its a proscribed terrorist group. Yet at the same time, there is this sense that were getting from David Cameron and the government that you think that israel is being disproportionate now in its response, not least because of the incursion in rafah, do you think that Benjamin Netanyahu has been overplaying his hand now, mr mitchell . Well weve made it very clear, as have our allies , the americans, have our allies, the americans, that without a plan it would be a big mistake to launch a military attack on rafah. And we have not yet seen , and we have not yet seen, that plan. But equally, we make it absolutely clear that israel has the right to self defence. Has the right to self defence. The events that took place, the pogrom that took place on october 7 was a terrible, terrible deed. More jewish people got murdered on that day than on any other day since the end of the second world war. And. The holocaust. So, we are very clear that israel has the right to self defence, but equally that it must act within the boundanes that it must act within the boundaries of International Humanitarian law. Why did the uk government then abstain on that vote . This week at the Un General Assembly , week at the Un General Assembly, with regard to giving the palestinian territories the right to become a full un member, the abstention. Does member, the abstention. Does seem to be slightly outside of the rest of the western world. Saying no to that idea. Weve been very clear that we do think that it is right to recognise palestine as a state at the United Nations at the right time, and that doesnt have to be at the end of the process for peace, it could be as part of those negotiated lie ins and britain will support palestine, become , a state at palestine, become, a state at the un when we feel the time is right. That isnt now, but it may, as i say, be before the end of the peace process, which we very much hope will come when the fighting stops. And this dreadful, set of circumstances, the catastrophe in gaza is over. There will then be a chance for people to lift their eyes to a political process. And its worth remembering also that the great progress that was made at oslo when we got so close to a two state solution, that process took place on the back of the intifada. So out of great disaster, misery, gloom and catastrophe can come political process and britain is in the forefront of countries trying to make sure that we are ready when that time comes to make that progress. Quick. Final question, mr mitchell, because weve been sadly squeezed on time , in 2022, sadly squeezed on time, in 2022, you said that you thought the rwanda scheme was, quote, impractical, ineffective and extraordinarily expensive. Whats changed . Well, whats changed is the overall expense. Of dealing with overall expense. Of dealing with this problem. People coming across the channel in the hands of the modern day equivalent of the slave trader that last year, just the first year, cost to £4 billion just for the first year of Asylum Seekers in britain. So the comments i made in, 2022 about the rwanda schemes expense , which was my principal expense, which was my principal reason for opposing it, have been dwarfed by the overall expense of dealing with this problem. And the rwanda scheme does have a role to play. Its not the whole, part of the role. Theres many other things that need to be done which the government is now doing. And i greatly welcome that. Of course, the recent bill that went through the house of commons was about the question of the safety of rwanda. And im in no doubt at all that rwanda is a safe country. Indeed. Theres a very strong argument that kigali, the capital city of, of , of rwanda capital city of, of, of rwanda is safer than london is under its labour mayor. Okay. Well have to leave it there. Thank you very much indeed for joining there. Thank you very much indeed forjoining me. Andrew mitchell. Lovely to speak to you. Thank mitchell. Lovely to speak to you. Thank you, thank you. Well, coming up next, im going to be joined by tory mp sir conor burns, whos one of Boris Johnsons closest welcome back to the Camilla Tominey show on gb news. Sir conor burns joins me in the studio now. The former Northern Ireland minister and the tory mp for bournemouth west. Lovely to for bournemouth west. Lovely to see you this morning. Thank you for coming in, whats your reaction to the Natalie Elphicke defection . Amusement . Amusement . Yes. Yes. I think it actually speaks to something. We all knew where something. We all knew where natalies politics were. They were on the right of the conservative party. And i think this speaks to something that the public sense and its shown a little bit when you look at Keir Starmers ratings , labour Keir Starmers ratings, labour are getting a lot of support because theyre not us right now. But theres a sense they dont stand for very much. And i think the fact that starmer is comfortable or appears to be comfortable or appears to be comfortable or appears to be comfortable or is presenting as comfortable, welcoming Natalie Elphicke in speaks almost to a sort of sense that there is no value, no principle, no guiding stars within the keir starmer labour party. Although when she criticised the Prime Minister in her resignation statement, she talked about his incompetence, his inability to stop the boats, basically suggesting that the conservative party is sort of dying on its knees. Thats probably a fair assessment. I mean, looking at the numbers still coming in, it was that record of 711 people coming in by boat illegally the wednesday before last, that five point plan of rishi sunak isnt working , is it . Working, is it . So look, i think what she said in terms of frustration about the boats situation is widely echoed. I think if you widely echoed. I think if you asked the Prime Minister himself, we are very frustrated at the inability to close off those options. Were very frustrated at the behaviour of people who are moving through multiple safe countries to come to the uk to claim asylum, when youd think theyd want to do that in the first safe country they came to. If you, for example , stood on the beach of example, stood on the beach of dover and said women and children first, you get a pretty thin reception. Many of these are economic migrants. But where natalie was right, certainly three weeks ago, was in her analysis that labour have no solution to this. So whilst rwanda is not the silver bullet, i think we all accept that it is something that will act as a deterrence. If you dont believe the conservatives on that, you could listen to the new Prime Minister and the foreign secretary in the irish republic, who are saying that migrants are going there because of the deterrent effect of rwanda. All the stuff that natalie stood listening to with sir keir starmer in dover at the end of last week were already doing collaboration with the french, breaking the gangs , intelligence gathering. The deterrent effect, though maybe it wont take effect until its too late for the tories. This is the other problem youve got a situation where we had George Eustice in earlier. I know you spoke to him in the green room. You know, hes decided, along with 64 others, we heard from Nadhim Zahawi last week that hes standing down. Theyre all doing it for their own different reasons. And he made the point in 2019. You had a lot of people resigning as well, but it doesnt exactly evoke sort of confidence in the conservative party. Its a bad look. You know, youre staying, youre going to fight your seat. Whats your majority . Its 10,100. Are you worried about it . Im worried about extremely strongly. Look, i told my First Political fib in 1986 when you had to be 16 to join the conservative party, and i was 14. So i told them i was 16 to get in. I was back in welwyn hatfield, saint albans, where i was at school, ive seen it come and go. There are cycles in politics, but you keep fighting and a number of colleagues are making decisions. Whats right for them , their families, their for them, their families, their careers, many whove reached the top in or near the top in government are taking the calculation that theyve done that. They want to do something different. Im staying because i different. Im staying because i think those of us who have been involved for a long time have an obugafion involved for a long time have an obligation to stay and fight, and weve seen electoral surprises. Yes. Were behind. I think it is as wrong for conservatives to assume that the pubuc conservatives to assume that the public cannot be persuaded to support us, as it is arrogant for labour to assume already that theyre going to support them. We havent even begun an election campaign. Tell you one example. Youve raised several times this morning the plans that the labour party have for vat on private schools and the change to charitable status. Change to charitable status. Yes, i went to a private school. It was a modest private school. It was a modest private school. Lots of the parents made sacrifices to a school run by the brothers of the sacred heart in saint albans. Many parents who are making sacrifices for their kids will be looking at labours plans with some anxiety. Yes, thats one of the few areas where labour have actually started to spell out what they do. I think when you get into a campaign and they actually compelled to tell us what their plan for government is, things could open up. But then you need effective campaigners on the campaign trail giving the counter narrative and the criticism of the current government is theyre not landing these blows kind of cleanly enough. Theyre not sustaining their attack lines. You know , they watered lines. You know, they watered down the net zero pledge, and then its on to the next thing and the next thing. You work very closely with Boris Johnson. Give us some insight. Is he going to come back onto the campaign trail . Has he got an appetite for a return to politics . I know you speak to him regularly. Politics . I know you speak to him regularly. Whats he. Him regularly. Whats he. Well, listen, before we do, boris, i mean, look, i go back a couple of years, i do house meetings in my constituency a couple of times a week with just ordinary folk coming to someones home and talking to me. Two years ago, after the truss circus tent fell in on the conservative party after 49 days, the criticism was that we were incompetent. We didnt know what we were doing. There is no talk about what we are doing and maybe its a bit technocratic. Thats a vast improvement of where we were two years ago. Theres a challenge for the Prime Minister and the whole Parliamentary Party to explain what weve done in government. Take, for example, schools where 90 of schools are now good or outstanding, compared to 60 roughly under labour a decade and a half ago. Weve got to do that. Weve got to be out selling the narrative about the choice that there will be at the next election. If its a next election. If its a referendum on any government thats at the end of its time. Thats going to be challenging. If you can turn it into a debate about whos got the right vision for the future of britain, i think keir starmer will fall short on that. Look to boris. Were going to need all our talents. Were going to need all our players, all our stars on the field. Boris is doing amazing work on ukraine currently, which is extremely important beyond the days in and outflows of day to day politics. Whats going on in ukraine if we let, ukraine down and putin wins the risk to us in the years decades ahead is immense. Boris is rallying support. I nearly saw him a couple of weeks ago in new york, where he was rallying the american republicans on this, trying to get them to see the strategic importance of this. I her role will be found for boris in that election campaign. Campaign. And theres been talk that hes waiting for a phone call from rishi sunak. Do you think that phone call is going to be made because theres no love lost. There, is there . Boris lost. There, is there . Boris johnson still blames rishi sunak, in part for his own demise. Boris has an analysis of what happened and i think thats his analysis. I think a lot of people now look back on that penod people now look back on that period and realise is that people were out to get boris from day one. A lot of people never forgave boris for the fact that leave won the referendum and boris sort of lent permission to the sort of liberal mainstream opinion that it was okay to be in favour of national sovereignty. And they were determined to get him. They got him, but he is still out there, a big beast in the tory party. And i want to see all our players on the field. Do you think he wants to be back on the field of play, notwithstanding what that might mean for people playing rugby with him . But metaphorically speaking, anyone whos ever been out on a walkabout or in fact just walking between meetings with bofis walking between meetings with Boris Johnson sees hes a superstar. Yeah, and we need superstar. Yeah, and we need that and that mandate. Hes saying to you, connor, whether you want to do it, thats what im trying to drill into here. He said it himself. The mandate of 2019 and very many ways was a very personal mandate. He still feels very strongly about levelling up. He feels very strongly about making sure we take the full benefits of brexit. And i think he will. You know, he was not exactly complimentary in many of their despatch box exchange to sir softy, captain hindsight, whatever the various things he called him, i think he would relish the opportunity to play a part in making sure that keir starmer doesnt get to number 10. So youre indicating that he may have the mood. Music may be positive on a boris comeback for the campaign. Well, you never know from one day to the next what view boris will take. I hope, as someone whose name will be on a ballot paperin whose name will be on a ballot paper in the autumn , that we are paper in the autumn, that we are all our stars, including boris on the pitch. All right, so you have had regular conversations. Im just trying to just drill into this because people are being very clear about this. How often do you speak to him . Whens the last time you spoke to him, and is this often a topic of the conversation . I nearly saw him in new york a couple of weeks ago, but our diaries didnt actually work, he wants to play a part, but he wants. But hes very proud of what . Hes this call, but hes very proud of what hes doing on ukraine. Thats the one thing that i think he feels during his time in government that he called it right. And he led and coalesced national and International Opinion around the need to stand with the ukrainians against putins illegal invasion and hes doing that in the states and elsewhere. But if he came out on the stump with you in bournemouth west, do you think hed be an electoral asset . Would it help electoral asset . Would it help to convince people on the doorstep hes brought up in various parts of my constituency positively, as someone who had a great vision for britain. All right. All right. Conor burns, thank you very much indeed. Lovely for your lovely to see you in the studio. I think for the first time it is lovely to see you. Up next, im going to be talking to my fellow gb news host michael portillo, and then will hutton will join me in the studio to discuss his new book, this time, no mistakes and how to remake britain well has got quite a lot to say about what he thinks the British State is doing wrong, and why populism is doing wrong, and why populism is also a dirty word, so it should be a fascinating discussion. Dont go anywhere i welcome back to the Camilla Tominey show. Michael portillo joins me now from paddington. Michael, whats on your show at 11 . Hello, camilla. Well were going to be looking at the politics of eurovision. Were going to be considering russian spying techniques. Now that russian spies have been expelled from london. 200 years of history at the national gallery. And its more than 200 years since the invention of the cocktail. Its going to be cocktail. Its going to be National Cocktail day. I think thats going to leave me both shaken and stirred. Hahahahahahahahaha well, bottoms up to that. Now, in just a minute, im going to be discussing this book with the author, will hutton. Its about how to remake britain. But first, heres a very quick weather update. A brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on. Gb news. Good morning. Welcome to your latest gb news Weather Forecast from the met office. Looking ahead to today , most of us ahead to today, most of us seeing some further sunshine, but there will be a scattering of thunderstorms developing actually for some northern and. Actually for some northern and. Eastern parts. Quite a murky start this morning, but the low cloud and mist will burn away, so that leaves most of us with some sunshine. But for Northern Ireland, a scattering of showers developing and come the afternoon many western and northern parts seeing some showers. And these showers will be heavy, possibly thundery in places , and warnings are in places, and warnings are in force right throughout the afternoon and evening. But in the Sunshine Feeling very warm. Highs could reach 27 degrees down towards the south eastern corner. Into this evening. The showers continue to rumble on, especially across parts of Northern England and scotland. Some torrential. Downpours some torrential. Downpours developing here overnight. Elsewhere, turns drier but fairly cloudy but under the cloud its going to be a mild night. Temperatures for most of us, staying firmly in that double figures. So for most it should be a dry start on monday. Still some showers up across scotland, but they should gradually ease a tad. But then down towards the southwest we see this next band of rain move in some heavy rain as that moves its way towards south wales and parts of somerset and dorset. Come the afternoon. Elsewhere, a largely dry picture. Best of the sunshine over towards the east. But for all of us feeling a little bit cooler, i think highs possibly reaching. 20 degrees in possibly reaching. 20 degrees in the east looks like things are heating up boxt boiler as sponsors of weather on gb news. Welcome back, will hutton. The authorjoins me now with his new book. Here it is this time, no mistakes how to remake britain. Hopefully you can see that will. Lovely to see you. Thank you very much for coming in. Well how do we remake britain and what will a remade britain and what will a remade britain look like . Well, a great deal more vigorous than we are now. I mean, my big contention is that a strong economy, a Strong Society and a and a effective state and democracy are all kind of interlinked. Yes. So on all those three metrics, things would be better. The economy would be better. The economy would be better. The economy would be growing more vigorously, our society would be less fractured and our democracy would be less tortured, capital ism isnt easy to get right. And one of my big, the other kind of central contention of the book is that we have we have become a low investment economy in society. Time to invest in ourselves. And actually, capitalism, if it works well, is innovative, its dynamic, it delivers well, but it has propensities to go off the rails. It generates monopoly inequity, booms and busts , inequity, booms and busts, economic rent. And so its got to have guiderails , its got to to have guiderails, its got to be actively superintended. And my argument is that, brutally, theres been too much laissez faire, free market fundamentalism to and too little attention to how to kind of curate capitalism better. Yeah, but you say too much laissez faire. I mean, you speak to businesses these days, they now say that theyve returned to the days of overregulation. Im not sure thats what i say mid to tell me, actually, but maybe they, maybe they maybe there are two different things. But i think, i mean most kind of enterprises kind of obviously they want kind of a degree of economic stability, but they know that especially if youre operating at the frontier of technology, youre doing any innovative. Its very risky. And most companies dont want to bet the farm on kind of one innovation, which may go pear shaped. They know they need infrastructure of support. They know they need some of that risk mitigated , and they know that mitigated, and they know that they can look to a Public Agency to do that. So theres very few Business Models of our Top Companies which one way or another, have been helped along by the state. And so they know that and they dont want it to be kind of suffocating. They want it to be a kind of supportive, but they know they need it. I love what youre writing in the book about how we need a we society , and youre saying that society, and youre saying that progressives and liberals should be promoting this. My impression is that at the moment, progressives and liberals are promoting a me society. Its all about them and not about everyone else. And i say that in regard to a lot of the things weve witnessed with some of the pro palestinian protests , this pro palestinian protests, this idea of individualism and a degree of narcissism taking on from kind of caring about the collective, you could look at the trans debate, for instance. Is that a fair point from me or not . Im going to see if i can work with it to get some Common Ground here. I mean, my we society kind of may like a venn diagram overlap with yours kind of. What i try to argue in the book is that is that we human beings are profoundly social. And i quote aristotle at one point saying any man or woman doesnt want to partake of society, live the common life is either a beast or a god , i quote a you know, a god, i quote a you know, theres a great poet. John donne theres a great poet. John donne says, no man is an island. So, you know, thats where im thats my starting off point. And i want to blend , kind of and i want to blend, kind of weakness, thats having a floor and below which no one can fall with actually kind of progressive into progressive liberalism, kind of allowing there to be kind of ladders of which individuals can climb cognisant that they have obugafions cognisant that they have obligations to society, and society will, of course, reciprocal obligations to them. Thats the vision of the we society. Now, how can i build society. Now, how can i build your point about, have the narcissism of some protests , i narcissism of some protests, i suppose they would. And here it gets here where i am, you know, one walks a tightrope. I mean, i think that i think that, i, i definitely rebut identity politics. I you know, i do think its kind of i do think it kind of builds division between. So, so in that sense, i think we could. Probably, if we had time could. Probably, if we had time longer than the 3 or 4 minutes. That reminds us, we could probably get somewhere in one minute. 30, im told in my ear only because Andrew Mitchell was late, will. But yeah, we both reject identity politics because its divisive. Theres more that unhes its divisive. Theres more that unites us than divides us. Social media has played a role in driving a wedge. Absolutely, absolutely. No, im very critical about that. I mean, i do think i mean, i do think im very supportive of this kind of attempt to get kind of better superintendents of content for kids, yes. And actually, i think its correct that actually parents should be extremely wary about how much screen time they allow their kids to have. So, i mean, that all that, i mean, social media and the echo chamber in which one occupies when one plunges into it. Now not hearing contrary views to ones own crucial in a democracy to kind of engage with others and, and try to build kind of common facts that we share, then respond to them developing policy. But lets start with policy. But lets start with common facts. And the trouble with social media, you dont have common facts. This is why we have people like you on this show. This is why we have people like you on this show. Well, like you on this show. Well, hutton, because i come back, we dont agree , but we have dont agree, but we have disagreed agreeably and thats why we want to have the debates on gb news. We will have you back because id like to speak to you further. And weve been squeezed. Can you blame the Deputy Foreign secretary for that . This is wills book. Lets give it a new plug, because his time has been squeezed. But its a great read, thank you very much for joining a great read, thank you very much forjoining me for today, much for joining me for today, well be back next week at 930. But of course, up next, drinking sunday. Away. Good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. Shakespeares sonnet tells us that rough winds do shake the darling buds of may. Rishi sunak and the Scottish National party might agree. But this week might agree. But this week glorious spring weather has shone upon some term of this blessed plot. Our sceptred isle ihope blessed plot. Our sceptred isle i hope that the next two hours of arts, culture and World Affairs will brighten and adorn your sunday following the