Of that to come and more. But before we get stuck in, lets cross live for tonights latest news headlines. News headlines. Michelle, thank you very much. And good evening to you. Its just gone 6 00 and leading the news tonight, another of rishi sunaks mp5 has defected to labour, the second in under just two weeks. Natalie elphicke announced her Decision Just two minutes before prime ministers questions this afternoon. The questions this afternoon. The dover mp said that rishi sunaks government is chaotic and claims that labour has changed. Dan poulter made the same switch less than a fortnight ago, while the conservatives also lost hundreds of councillors and the blackpool south by election last week. Speaking shortly after making that announcement to defect, mr elphicke said a Labour Government promises a brighter future. In 2019, the conservatives stood on a manifesto that was very much Centre Ground, but under rishi sunak theyve abandoned the Centre Ground and broken many election promises. Meanwhile, under keir starmer , meanwhile, under keir starmer, labour have changed and i think that change is going to bring a much Better Future for our country and thats why im so keen to join the labour party and play my part in bringing that important future forward Banking Group tsb will close 36 branches and cut 250 jobs across the business as more customers are opting for online banking, most of the lost positions will be in the banks fraud department. Central operations and high street branches. About 96 of transactions now take place outside of a branch, while in store transactions have fallen by 34 over the past four years. And just a reminder , if years. And just a reminder, if you were watching on tv there, those appear to have been the wrong pictures. Planned strikes by hundreds of workers at Heathrow Airport have been called off today, after a new offer was made in a bid to resolve a dispute over the outsourcing of jobs. Members of outsourcing of jobs. Members of the unite union were due to walk out tomorrow morning until monday. Workers, including security guards and passengers assistant staff, will now be balloted on the new offer. A balloted on the new offer. A father whose teenage daughter, who took her own life after watching harmful content on social media, says a draft plan to protect Children Online doesnt go far enough. The media regulator ofcom says platforms must take action to stop their algorithms, recommending harmful content to children or face significant fines. But ian significant fines. But ian russell, part of bereaved families for online safety, wants to see those safety codes strengthened to make sure that the worlds Biggest Online platforms, he says, better protect Children Online. And finally, some royal news before we head back to michelle. Prince harry has tonight arrived at saint pauls cathedral for a service there of thanksgiving to mark the 10th anniversary of the invictus games. The duke of sussex is giving a reading there in front of representatives from participating nations and sick and injured Service Personnel and injured Service Personnel and veterans. Less than two miles away, the king has been holding a First Garden Party of the season at buckingham palace. The season at buckingham palace. But during harrys brief visit to the uk this week, the kings full programme means the pair wont be meeting. Those are the wont be meeting. Those are the latest headlines. Ill be back with another update at 7 00. In the meantime, you can sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the code on your screen or go to gb news. Com slash alerts. News. Com slash alerts. Thanks for that. Im Michelle Dewberry and im keeping you company until 7 00 tonight. There is a lot i want to get stuck into with you guys tonight, also, one of the things that ive noticed. Did you see that ive noticed. Did you see that story about astrazeneca . They have announced that theyre going to be withdrawing globally. Their vaccine. The company says, of course, for commercial reasons. And it goes on to state how many lives they believe the vaccine has saved. But of course, many of you might know that there is a massive class action claim going through the courts at the moment, which has seen astrazeneca finally admit that yes, in what they say are very rare cases, the vaccine canindeed are very rare cases, the vaccine can indeed cause tts, which is basically blood clots. I do just want to say, i think that the way that so many people who have been harmed by these vaccines have just been let down in this country is absolutely shameful. They have been abused, they have been ignored, they have been shamed, they have been vilified. And i just want to say that i, for one, hope that they manage to get justice, alongside me tonight to get stuck into lots of different things. I have the co founder of novara media, aaron bastani, and the political commentator and social worker joseph david. Good evening to both of you. Evening. Ive never had you on the program whilst ive been in. Its a pleasure to be here. Its a pleasure to be here. You snuck in whilst i was on houday you snuck in whilst i was on holiday once. I seem to remember watching it back. So youre very welcome tonight, as are all of you at home to, you can get in touch with me all the usual ways. Gb views gbnews. Com is the email address or of course you can hop onto the website and go to gb news commu usa and talk to me there. Or you can tweet or x me, but wherever you are, however you want to talk to me tonight, you are very, very welcome. Now, did you see the news happening . Just about kind of midday ish during pmqs or at the start of pmqs, we had another defection , this time another defection, this time from the tory party over to laboun from the tory party over to labour. Just watch. Well, in 2019, the conservatives stood on a manifesto that was very much Centre Ground. But under rishi sunak theyve abandoned the Centre Ground and broken many election promises. Meanwhile, under keir starmer, labour have changed and i think that change is going to bring a much Better Future for our country. And thats why im so keen to join the labour party and play my part in bringing that important future forward. Okay. Yeah, indeed. So thats the tory mp Natalie Elphicke from dover and deal. Natalie elphicke from dover and deal. Ive got to say, i dont deal. Ive got to say, i dont actually agree with this. I actually agree with this. I think crossing the floor in my view, because it suits you as an individual and what you perhaps want to achieve in your future is pretty damn shameful, actually, because it its a snub to all of those people that turned out and gave you the cross in the box. And yes, i can hear you now saying, oh, michel, educate yourself. We vote for the person , not the party. Well, the person, not the party. Well, thats fascinating, but we put the parties on there. And of course, those people are selected to represent said parties and all of the policies that go with it. So if you ask me, my humble opinion, i would say that, any defection should trigger a by election. And yes, im not biased in that view. I apply that whichever side youre moving from to. And and yes, i would involve and include people like lee anderson in that as well. What says you at home . But aaron, what do you say . Well, just watching that clip again, i was i was a bit gutted because given the words coming out of her mouth, given what shed done, she should be wearing some makeup, a wig and a Little Flower with a water pistol hidden in it because shes behaving like a clown. This is the same mp who called sir keir starmer. Sir keir softy. She said he wants open borders. This is the mp for doven while youre talking im going to play some of these tweets. Ill put some of the tweets. Ill put some of the tweets up on the screen whilst aarons talking away, where she criticises the labours sorry, i dont know, maybe ive ruined the shtick here. No, you have not ruined anything. Keep going, and i just find it utterly ridiculous. Look, you can have views one way or another. Thats absolutely fine. But what . Natalie elphicke here has embodied is the indisputable fact that the majority of the Political Class in this country believe in absolutely nothing except the next paycheque and their own hide. And i suspect shes made this choice because shes made this choice because she wants maybe a peer peer role. So shes a starmer government or maybe an ngo role. So shes a starmer government or maybe an n60 or a quango. So she shes thinking about her future. I do have to say so. She said apparently shes not going to run again. So the previous ppc run again. So the previous ppc from the last one, thats the person thats going to stand in that seat. And she also said that seat. And she also said that she has not been offered a peerage, but there was talk of some kind of housing role. I think thats the latest line on it. And where are you on this . It. And where are you on this . Well, call me a cynic, but i doubt shes converted to labour ideology. So close to a general election. This is somebody who stood in dover. Election. This is somebody who stood in dover. This is a seat where migration is a big issue. Where migration is a big issue. Shes now joining a party which she very rightly said believes in open borders. Shes let down the people of her, of her constituency. And if you stand on her ticket , if you campaign on her ticket, if you campaign with a particular party, yes, youre being elected. Somebody puts a cross on your name, but theyre electing you and the party. And i think something has to change. And this very much reminds me in stark contrast to the last time i think somebody acted with integrity and they left their party. They called the they called by election and they actually won it. And this was Douglas Carswell all those years ago. I think it was in 2015. So it can be done and very often the electorate will take the opportunity to , to choose the opportunity to, to choose again if theyve moved with you on the issue. But its simply immoral and dishonest to take the mandate that you received at a general election and so close to the next election leave maybe with hope of a peerage. With hope of a peerage. Nicola said if someone defects from one party to another, then yes, there should be a by election. Let me just ask you this though, nicholas. Do you think the time frame should bear any relevance on this . Because of course, people on the other side of the argument will say, well, hold on a minute, michelle. By elections costs a lot of money. And if actually theres going to be a general election in in a matter of weeks or months, and is that just wasted money down the drain . So, nicholas, tell me your thoughts. And is anyone out there actually in this constituency . Did you vote constituency . Did you vote either for or against her . And how do you feel by this defection and i think, labour theyve been criticised a lot, aaron, because one of the things that natalie was saying has just been hearing there is that shes saying she thinks that the tories are neglecting the Centre Ground, whereas people on the other side are saying, ive heard people say, well, hang on, natalie is quite to the right of the tories. So if the labour party are embracing her, what does that say about the labour partys direction of travel . She says the labour party are the party for the centrist now. Well i think shes an opportunist and i think keir starmer is very happy to work with opportunists because hes also an opportunist. A nice analogy here is if Zarah Sultana joined the conservative party, you know, she is on the furthest right reaches of the conservative party. Natalie elphicke and shes now been embraced by the opposition. The point of a two party system. And by the way, i support pr. I think we need more parties in politics is that you have clear distinctive lines between them and you have clear alternatives. Im not happy with these people. These people stand for something profoundly different. I want rid of the status quo. And i think of the status quo. And i think this really underscores something weve talked about many times on here, the uni party, you know, we are really looking at fundamentally, as mr galloway puts it, i know hes had a tough week. We might be talking about that in a moment, too. We most certainly will. We most certainly will. Worry not. He has a great way with words, and one of the phrases he loves to use is, you know, two cheeks of the same backside. And i think this really highlights its that fundamental reality. Ive seen some horrendous imagery today, of i dread to think whose buttocks they are with pictures of keir starmer on one buttock and rishi sunak on the other. I wont be able to unsee some of those images, but i think that is indeed a sense that many people have of this, so called uni party. Well come on to Monty Panesar , in on to Monty Panesar, in a minute, actually. In fact, you know what . Lets just go for it. Lets talk about it now, because many of you, it was only about a week ago. You perhaps will remember you was watching dewbs co and we were speaking about this, the cricketer who would then become the latest face of, George GallowaysWorkers Party for britain. Ive got to say, i saw quite a few interviews. And i dont mean to be unkind, but he didnt really perform very well in those interviews, and there was lots of talk about this is for gaza. And, you know, some of the placards, it was kind of the Workers Party for britain, for gaza and all the rest of it anyway. So hes now quit the party. Firstly, what do you make to that . So this is the feel good story of the day, Monty Panesar has realised , quite frankly, has realised, quite frankly, what George Galloway and the Workers Party are all about, he was quite uncomfortable when some of mr galloways quotes were put to Monty Panesar, i dont think he quite understood the level of scrutiny that comes with standing for a Political Party. And hats off to him. Actually, hes hes looked at the situation. Hes probably taken advice from people that he trusts and hes decided to take a step back, it can be alluring when you become involved with the Political Party you run with, with the ideals that they stand by. And, and i think by stopping and saying, actually , i stopping and saying, actually, i dont believe in all of these different things. I am a proud brit, and by taking a step back, there will be a bit of because wouldnt you do the basic research before you actually say, put your colours to that mass and say, right, im now a representative of this party. Im not saying what people should or should not believe in. But before you say, right, im going to stand for this. You should do the basic research beforehand. No, absolutely. But some things can get lost in translation. If, mr panesar is somebody who wants to advocate for gaza, and he actually said in the article he wants to advocate for workers, and then he sees the Workers Party and theyve just had a by election where gaza was a central topic. He might think this is a good avenue for my political career , and then later political career, and then later it comes out that theres been these quotes which are highly embarrassing. You should know that we are conditioned as human beings to agree with with things that weve said already. It takes it takes guts to turn around and say, actually, i made around and say, actually, i made a mistake and thats what he did. And i think its worthy of praise. I think too many people go into politics because they want to. Its like an ego thing. They want their theyre the kind of adoration, like, if youre going to represent, you want to put yourself forward and say that yourself forward and say that you want to represent the workers credit. I think that the workers credit. I think that the workers absolutely do need, some support. You should know at least the basics, though. Like, for example , what is the minimum for example, what is the minimum wage or the living wage or whatever, like absolute core basics that would affect the workers . No. And he didnt know that. No. And he didnt know that. No. And he didnt know that. No. And he didnt know that. No. He thought when i mean , i no. He thought when i mean, i saw, he was asked that actually on this question on this, channel, he was asked things like, what is the National Living wage . And he said about 40 grand. And then they said, no, no, no, we mean like by the houn no, no, no, we mean like by the hour. And he said, 15, which he absolutely isnt. And thats fine. Anyone if you can pluck a random person off the street and say, whats the minimum wage . And if they dont know, thats, you know, whatever. But if youre going to stand on a ticket of actually, you know, representing the workers of britain, there are some core bafic britain, there are some core basic facts. Theres an interesting tension there, isnt there . Because if you want career politicians, media polished, dont really have any authenticity, dont really believe in anything. Somebody like Natalie Elphicke by the looks of it, they probably give you the right answer to that sort of thing. And by the way, i agree with what youre saying here, michelle, but its an interesting one. If we want more people to be involved in politics, more people to be involved in public service, were probably going to see also more people stick their foot in it and not have the right sort of media trained message for Something Like that. I mean, i think for me, the big takeaway with this story is with galloway, by the way, i interviewed him last week. You can see that i saw you, i saw you created quite a stir because you was the person that got that kind of quote from him where he was basically saying, im not putting words into his mouth, but it was along the lines of he didnt think that gay relationships were, quote, normal. Normal. Yeah, yeah. So that was on your interview with him whilst also saying things which were very, you know, commendable. But that is categorically what he said, and obviously that caused consternation, quite rightly what i find with galloway, which is so fascinating, is hes a very, very intelligent man. Clearly you dont win four times in four different constituencies if youre stupid. Hes clearly very clever. He has a command of the engush clever. He has a command of the english language, which is second to none. Is he a Party Builder . Thats what is he . Builder . Thats what is he . Somebody who can lead a party, set an example, build an organisation. Then he failed to organisation. Then he failed to do that with respect. In the mid 2000 and i suspect well see something similar. I dont know, i suspect well see something similar with the Workers Party because there is this huge gap to the left of labour right now on Foreign Policy. But why wouldnt he have breached, why wouldnt he have briefed, Monty Panesar . Then why wasnt there some kind of meat . I mean, im not saying he needs to know. Absolutely everything for everyone. No, but basics. Im not asking him to know. I dont know the most, intricate details of political history. Im not saying that, but the most basic things, if youre going to put someone and youve decided to put them up on the national media, knowing kind of the kind of questions that will be asked to say that youre there to represent the worker without knowing something as bafic without knowing something as basic as what is that minimum wage, that is surely a failure if , lets just be wage, that is surely a failure if, lets just be kind and say its a failure of the person briefing them. I did not come here to defend George Galloway or the Workers Party, but if i was in charge takes strange turns, i would say Monty Panesar is a very well known person , and if you cant known person, and if you cant answer the other question, hes still going to benefit the party. So i can understand why theyd want him. What i would say is i agree with you on George Galloways oratory. I think what what Monty Panesar see is that you cant get 65 of a person. You cant get just the oratory. You have to take the acrimony, the arguments that always come with George Galloway, and hes he cant build a party. I dont think hes a builder. I think hes a polemicist. I think hes very good at getting attention. And he will make a big stink, and then hell go away like political flatulence. Political flatulence. This, Monty Panesar, his statement said he is a proud brit who has had the honour to represent the country at the highest level of cricket. He wants to do his bit to help others, but he recognises as hes the beginning of his journey and still learning about how politics can help people. He how politics can help people. He goes on to say hes withdrawing as a candidate. He needs more time to kind of listen and learn and share his views and all the rest of it, and he says he wishes the party, the Workers Party, well, but he wants to take some time to mature and find my political feet. So i am well prepared to deliver my very best when i run up to the next political wicket , he says. Let political wicket, he says. Let me know your thoughts on that. I just want to come back to that after the break, actually, because i found it really interesting. If youre somebody who wants to get rid of the tories at the next election and thats each to their own judge, you know, vote however you want. None of my business. But if you want to do that, theres a very slick, organised campaign that will show you how you can tactically vote and all the rest of it. If youre someone that is perhaps on the side of gaza and thatis perhaps on the side of gaza and that is your key issue , and you that is your key issue, and you want to get candidates that do that, theres hugely organised kind of Campaign Groups there. So im pondering, why do you think the right of politics seem to seemingly be so disorganised, so fragmented . And have you got so fragmented . And have you got an answer for me for that . Because id love to know. Give me your thoughts and ill see hello there. Im Michelle Dewberry, and im with useless 7 00 tonight. There is lots that i want to cover with you, not least immigration. Theres a 36 point plan thats been released today. I shouldnt laugh because itake today. I shouldnt laugh because i take this issue very, very seriously. I just think its just absolutely absurd now because we have lost control. And will we ever be able to get it back . Is this 36 point plan the answer or not . Ill get into that in a few minutes. Alongside the co founder of novara media and bastani and the political commentator and social worker at yousef, david, welcome back everybody. One of the things that i was asking aaron just before the break was how coordinated it seems to me that if you want the tories out, theres all these different groups with high profile people backing it. If youre a muslim and youre really passionate about gaza or whatever , theres about gaza or whatever, theres about gaza or whatever, theres a very slick campaign there. But if youre someone that wants to, i dont know, youre to the right of centre, you dont want labour to get in or whatever. Theres nothing unless im missing something. Well, there was there was meant to be reform. Michelle, we meant to be reform. Michelle, we were talking about this non stop for six months. No, im talking about like, yes, of course, campaigns. Yeah. Yes, of course, campaigns. Yeah. Its like a tactical, sense because many people i speak to lots of you guys at home every day, and many people will say, we dont know who to vote for. What we know is we dont want labour to get in, but do we go for, the tories or do we go for reform, are we just going to waste votes . What is the best way to do it . And it doesnt seem to be any kind of, tactics involved. Theres no tactics, no strategy, no logistics. I think all of that stuff. Why not . I think i think the right has just imploded in this country for a bunch of reasons. Some some, i think inevitable, i think brexit and that fight from 2016 to 2019 really dissolved british conservatism as we know it. I think that was partly the ambition of people like mr farage and they want to remake it in their image. Thats going to take a while. You know, youre not going to do that in one two years. Thats going to take, you know, the best part of a decade. So so, i think british conservatism is in a very bad place. What i would say is labour have the opportunity now over the next five, ten years to be the sort of party of the centre, centre right. I know we think of them as being in the trade unions pockets, but i think labour and keir starmer view themselves really as the heirs to people like David Cameron. And then i think its for the left, the greens, the Workers Party, independents, the labour left and the right to recompose themselves because theres a real opportunity here for labour to like i say, govern from the Centre Ground for a very long time. And i dont say that happily because theres many things i disagree with when it comes to the problem is, is not just with with the right of politics. You just said that keir starmer sees himself as the heir to cameron, so he sees himself as the heir to somebody from a different party. Yeah. And the trouble is that theyve all been blairites since blair. We havent actually had a real labour man or a real conservative. Liz truss person. Well, your days, many would say that she was to the right. Yes. Unfortunately, the system closed her down, and we didnt have an opportunity to actually see, conservative economics. I would have settled for a social conservative, but but we said, okay, so you know, a conservative economics. And the system closed her down. The trouble is that were all centrists at the moment. The centrists at the moment. The main parties are centrists. And i agree with you. I think labour in the centre, we would disagree on this, but i think theyre incredibly dangerous. I think thats when they can really change this country. What are theyre dangerous on, migration. You what, you on, migration. You what, you think immigration will go up under starmer, i think it would be hard for it to go up. I think it would be maintained, starmer has spoken about, safe and legal routes. Thats his answer. A5 routes. Thats his answer. As opposed to stopping the boats from coming over , provide safe from coming over, provide safe and legal routes. And we know that traditionally labour have been, a lot more open to the idea of open borders than the conservatives had , and the last conservatives had, and the last time the centrists from labour were in, they changed the country forever, not just with regard to immigration, but also launching wars , change. Changing launching wars, change. Changing the way this country has is viewed across the world and also the way that we function as a democracy, as the way that our politics actually functions was changed by tony blair, and i dont know when were going to recover from it. And what do you think when we talk about the labour party, one of the, one of the key challenges to the Labour Labour Party now will be the rise of what i would call the organised muslim vote. So whether thats youve seen all these people now going into the green party, youve seen lots of people standing as independents on things like gaza. Weve just been talking about George Galloways party as well. I think that labour perhaps didnt see that one coming in terms of sectarian voting. I think thats always the risk, particularly for a party like labour that likes to play identity politics. So promoting the idea that you should vote for us because youre from a Minority Community entrenches peoples idea of belonging to that community, and it hastens it hastens the prospect of Political Parties around religion or around our groupings. I think its very dangerous. Groupings. I think its very dangerous. Its i think its something that labour has walked into. But its deeper than that, though, isnt it . Because the whole situation thats unfolding and escalating in gaza, that is something thats held, deeply by many people , not just of a many people, not just of a particular religious , leaning, particular religious, leaning, but much broadly than that. People want there to be a ceasefire, and it seems to be for a lot of people that this is one of that. We saw it in the locals. It was one of their primary driving motivations when selecting who to for. Vote well, it seems like a not a very smart, reason to base your decision on for a local election, an International Issue , but i think for a lot of people, they saw it as a way to, in the moment, make their voices heard. So you dont think thatll translate to a general election . I dont think so. Not to the same extent, maybe theres a possibility of a few seats. If possibility of a few seats. If the demographics of the country change going forward, it could be that sectarian politics is something very, very real in the future. But right now , for this future. But right now, for this next election, i dont think its going to impact. Do you think itll impact the generals . Are its down to the politicians and how they take advantage of it. I think if you had a stellar political leader with a well resourced, well funded organisation, they could take 1520 seats off labour. But that isnt what basis on what issue Foreign Policy on a on a minimal economic agenda and Foreign Policy, populist rhetoric. Basically, what the workers parties tried to do. I think you could do that in 15 to 20 seats. Look at somewhere like bethnal green, which is going to be redrawn, but itll still be that constituency where you have Rushanara Ali labour, that is Tower Hamlets first. Lutfur rahman, i dont think hes well. I know hes not going to stand as the candidate there. If he wants to, hed walk it. And so i think actually if you look at 2030, there are huge opportunities for individuals, parties to the left of labour. Like i say, you dont need a massive agenda, minimal economic agenda of a socialist, quasi socialist agenda, plus the Foreign Policy stuff, plus really go big on the rhetoric and the messaging. Like i say, 15, 20 seats. Aaron, can i ask you why do you think George Galloway and Jeremy Corbyn have not joined 7 up. Up . Well, theyre very different people. I know that. I know that Jeremy Corbyn. Yeah. Well i think they are very different people. I mean, George Galloway said this. George galloway said to me that, you know, Jeremy Corbyns a liberal. He cares about what you call identity politics. The green agenda. You know, George Galloway thinks we should forget, fracking. He thinks we should get coal back. So it really is. Its a much bigger gulf than people think. Yes theyre very like minded on Foreign Policy. Absolutely. And i think 20 years ago, actually, they sounded very similar. But again, as George Galloway said to me, hes gotten older, hes become more religious with age. Theres a theres a big gap there on. Social conservatism, there on. Social conservatism, there on. Social conservatism, the green agenda, identity. Well, if the far left cant unite, then the chance of there being a Left Wing Party thats going to take seats is minimal right now. I think, one of my viewers, simon, says the so called right of politics has gradually. Been of politics has gradually. Been shut down, michel, thanks to politically correct and diversity groups, anyone now with a so called different view is shut down and cancelled. Do you agree with that, aaron . I think cancel culture is a real thing. I think it has to be real thing. I think it has to be warded against left, right and centre. I think it exists across politics, by the way, and this is why i want i would want an enshrined constitutional right to free speech and freedom of association. I think in the era of social media and identity politics, you have to have it. And we have 68 Million People in this country. Every Single Person needs a very small document that explains to them why other people have a right to say what they think, and we dont have that varne i have to agree on that. I think freedom of speech is the bedrock of our society, and we are self censoring as well. I think with the idea that people are people will be offended by our comments. We no longer say things that we used to say and therefore society is becoming more insular and sensitive. Why . What dont you say that you used to say, well, im not talking personally. Im saying in general we assume people will be offended by by things actually that that theyre not. I think people are pretty broad shouldered and theyre happy to discuss you. Yeah, i think were too many people get offended all the time. I think its pathetic. Well, that there are those who very much enjoy taking offence, and its also a way for them to make conversation. Its a way its very lucrative. Taking offence in this country is a very lucrative industry. You have like a whole, its almost like a, a sub economy set up with the people , economy set up with the people, all of these kind of groups that are anti this and anti this and diverse this and diverse that all set up to ill come in and train you about how to do this. Ill give you advice about how to do that. I think its very very odd. One of my viewers has got in touch and said, michel, please, will you stop talking . Youre going on about monty and they want me to stop. Apparently they want me to stop. Apparently they say they absolutely love him. Good on him for lifting the bar and then good on him again for having the guts to leave. Im not commenting on the guy. I dont know the guy. What im saying is, i mean, come on, grasp some basics. If youre going to go in and put your hat in the ring, which i applaud too, by the way. Good. I think we need more people. Do a little bit of homework. I mean, thats not too much to ask, is it . I want to talk to you about migration, though, because, the former immigration minister, Robert Jenrick, hes among a group of people who today, have announced a 36 point plan for immigration. Have you seen this one, everybody . Hes calling for a few different things, sir. He wants, the cap to be to the tens of thousands when it comes to the number that come into this country. He also wants the home country. He also wants the home office to split up. Give me your initial thoughts on this. Initial thoughts on this. This is very, very exciting. Its 36 points. Were at 35 points. I might not be as excited. I was about are you actually really excited about this plan . Are you. This is election season and we are pumping out policy ideas by the day. It seems, what i will say is that for me, this is a red herring we shouldnt be talking about the benefit of migration on the economy. I think we should be talking about the effects of migration on society. I think migration needs to be reduced significantly, last year over 600,000 people came here. Net migration, which is completely unsustainable. And it means that were unable to integrate at the same rate, at the same rate that people are actually migrating here. And when you have migration , which when you have migration, which is above the rate of integration, you risk ghettoisation. And thats what were starting to see. Our society , vie, is being impacted society, vie, is being impacted by the rate of immigration. And to talk about it purely, its been like that for ages. Absolutely, absolutely. And producing 36 points, which which lays out how we are going to deal with the migration crisis, which i think its fair to, to call it, actually belies the fact that what we dont need is more bureaucracy. Weve got far too many Civil Servants already. What we need is a willingness by the Civil Service and our justice system, our central government, every aspect of, of the people who rule our country to actually do something about this, to look at the amount of people who are coming here every yean people who are coming here every year, the ability of our infrastructure to change to meet those needs and, and a decision with regard to the best interests of everybody who lives here. Well, there you go, gary. Hes been in touch and says the issue is, that you have on the right says there is no real leadership. He says the conservatives have failed us. And richard tice just doesnt seem to be it. He says you need nigel farage to come back and get stuck in, mark avira has beenin get stuck in, mark avira has been in touch saying, can i just say that matthew normally makes my head explode . But tonight is actually making sense. Mark, i dont know what programme youre watching, my friend, but theres nobody on this panel, called matthew, look, i will be coming back after the break, though, sir aaron bastani, because i want his thoughts on this new migration plan. 36 points. Well go through some of them, but do you reckon itll make a blind bit of difference . Tell me. See you in two. Hello, everyone. Im Michelle Dewberry with you till 7 00 tonight. I want to talk to you. Then about that conversation. Migration. Were just having this whole notion that we can even cap the numbers now to the tens of thousand. That ship, pardon the pun, has sailed , has pardon the pun, has sailed, has it not . These are Robert Jenrick and kurz, 30 odd point plan as to what were going to do to fix the issues. Well, Robert Jenrick has ambitions of being, i think, leader of the conservative party. Its got a new haircut and a new haircut. Snazzy dress sense. Lost weight. Its all there. And now weight. Its all there. And now hes put the icing on the cake by talking about tens of thousands, just as David Cameron did, just as Margaret Thatcher did, just as Margaret Thatcher did, by the way, in 1979. Thats how long the tories have been using this precise line. Look, tens of thousands is what hes saying. Weve had 1. 3 million net migration in the last two years. Theres obviously a huge gap between those two places. What i would say is that the uk right now has around net immigration of around half a million. Now, of course, not all of those people are brits, but even if you go back to 1997, net immigration was around 200,000. We have a birth rate of 1. 49, again significantly lower than even 20 years ago. And what i dont like about this whole conversation is that people like Robert Jenrick arent being honest about the costs of going to tens of thousands , in terms to tens of thousands, in terms of migration really quickly, what it would mean in terms of inflation, what would it mean in terms of collapsing Higher Education because youd have no students. And i dont think, students. And i dont think, like i say, hes being honest. Therell be massive, massive costs if he said within a decade we can reach this point, i would say this isnt sloganeering. Thats quite plausible, actually. But hes not done that. Hes talking as if this can be executed next year, two years time with no downsides. There would be massive downsides. So i dont think hes being honest. I think its electioneering, i think its electioneering, i think its electioneering, i think its a bit odd, though, beanng think its a bit odd, though, bearing in mind that you was the immigration minister for a year quite , and actually, things were quite, and actually, things were quite, and actually, things were quite significant out of control dunng quite significant out of control during that watch. So you know, if youd have managed to really positively grab a hold of these things and. Yes, okay, you can argue it might have been going in a the right trajectory, but notwithstanding that it was off the scale, and if hed have got a great track record, then i might have taken this a little bit more seriously. Well, if he exactly if hed said, look, i think a good number in the short term is 250,000 200,000. But id like it to be like this in ten years time. After two parliaments, id say, okay, this sounds like somebody with a plan. You can agree or disagree. Let you say judge politicians by their actions, not their words. Priti patel was the most liberal home secretary on migration this countrys ever seen. Now, of course, if you heard a speech from her, you would never think that. But she was a home secretary when 1. 3 Million People net migrated to this country over two years. So i would say judge mrjenrick, as with mr patel on his actions, not his words, one of my viewers, chris, says a 36 point plan. Michelle decker even follow a one step plan when it comes to the rwanda plan. So why comes to the rwanda plan. So why would we believe that this is any different . One of the other any different . One of the other things, that was suggested was perhaps breaking up, the home office and one of my viewers here says that would be an absolutely great idea. Sorry. The Civil Service, theyre talking about the viewer that it would be an absolutely brilliant idea. You need to pull the Civil Service into line and do the job that we pay them to do, starting with perhaps returning to the office. What do you make to that, suggestion about separating and breaking things 7 up. Up . I the thing is , the last i the thing is, the last thing we need is more bureaucracy. Theres everything is far too convoluted as it is. If were going to have a department specific for migration and for making sure that our borders are protected, and it meets it meets the objective thats been set out. Absolutely. But i think we out. Absolutely. But i think we could be meeting these these requirements now, if there was genuine appetite in the home office and with regard to central central government, as i said before, already. So by all said before, already. So by all means split the home office if it will help. But i think we could actually be taking action now. How. Now. Well, he wants to split it because he wants to create a department of Border Security and immigration control, fascinating. Some people are fascinating. Some people are getting in touch and saying, yeah, but michelle, all the while were in the echr you can have as many plans as you want, but you are going to be restricted by that. You make a very good point indeed. After the break, how far do you think you should be able to go to defend your property from being burgled . Give me your thoughts and ill see you in two. Hi there. Im Michelle Dewberry , hi there. Im Michelle Dewberry, and im with you till 7 00. Alongside the co founder of novara media and bastani. And the political commentator and social worker. Yourself david. Welcome back everyone. Someone on twitter just got welcome back everyone. Someone on twitterjust got in touch on twitter just got in touch with me and said, michel, youve completely misrepresented what George Galloway said to aaron bastani, did i . Aaron bastani because if i did, it wasnt intentional. By the way, look, not to the best of my understanding in this interview, which people can watch on the novara media youtube channel, he says that, children in school shouldnt be told that lgbt relationships are normal , and told that lgbt relationships are normal, and then i press him on that. Well, is that because of what reason. Do you mean theyre not typical . He says no, gay not typical . He says no, gay relationships arent normal. I love them , i can be affectionate love them, i can be affectionate to them. I have staff who are lgbt. He won the stonewall award. I should, i should say, in the early 19905. I saw him tweet that. I saw him tweet that. But he says theyre not normal. And so i say, do you mean not typical . Because of course theyre not typical. Theyre in a minority, and look, theres ambiguity there. But those are his words. And thats how its been reported by novara media and elsewhere. Well there you go. I dont want you to get, you go. I dont want you to get, you know, in trouble corrected. If i got that wrong. A story that caught my eye this week was a story about a farmer whos been accused of shooting dead, someone that was apparently a suspected burglar. And it made me wonder how far i cant get into the specifics of this case, because its an ongoing legal situation. So ill broaden it out and ask the principal more broadly, how far do you think you should be able to go to defend and protect your own property, your family within it . So theres an idea of reasonable force. Theres an reasonable force. Theres an idea of defending, defending yourself in line with the ability of the person whos whos coming into your house, thats kind of ambiguous in the moment. How are you supposed to know, but i would say theres the idea also that an englishmans home is his castle, and ones right to protect their property is the is the basis of common law in this country. So we should all be able to go to bed at night confident that if we do defend ourselves , were we do defend ourselves, were not going to be hauled before the courts , but i dont i think the courts, but i dont i think particularly for farmers , particularly for farmers, because theyre a small section of society that can own guns. We of society that can own guns. We need some clarity around the law, because i remember tony martin 20 years ago shot somebody and who was breaking into his house and ended up going to jail. There was a huge furore over it, and eventually he was released. And in all those years, were still having these conversations about what someone can do to defend their own property, aaron might not agree with much of that, what i would say is if somebody is defending themselves, clearly they should use all reasonable force to defend themselves in this particular instance, i think shooting two young people who are running away from the scene of the crime doesnt really constitute self defence, but im sure that the judge in terms of sentencing, if it goes that far, would , would think that far, would, would think about that and dwell on that in terms of what kind of sentence this person would be looking at. Maybe theyve been it seems theyve been the victim of repeated crimes. They wont necessarily be thinking in a particularly charitable way to those whove inflicted those crimes on them. In other instances of people being assaulted in their home or when theyve taken somebodys life defending themselves. I dont think that should be treated as manslaughter or murder. I think they shouldnt even spend one iota of one second in a prison cell. But we also have to cell. But we also have to remember that killing someone is worse than having things stolen from you. I hope that the judge in this particular case uses this. Yeah, but i just want to say, when you are, if you get your house broken into so youre fast asleep in bed, you might have your children or your loved ones or family members in your house that complete violation of your privacy of your personal space, just that disgraceful, despicable nature of having all of your stuff rifled through. It goes beyond and deeper than just having stuff stolen this on this. I think thats a slightly separate point. So this is a farm. Im not talking about that. Ive moved away from that. Yeah. No, i agree with you there. I agree with you that broadly i agree with you that broadly i agree with you that broadly i agree with you that this this seems to be, people who are stealing things in a quasi professional manner repeatedly from a working farm. And the farmer had had enough. But youre right. I think somebodys home when their children are there. I can understand why people would bang into someones home is one of the lowest of the low things that you can do. And i think often when people have that happen to them, they often cant even stay in their own home because the memories, the thought that some disgusting person has been rifling rummaging through your your cupboards, your drawers, theyve been touching all of your things. A lot of people, they dont feel safe every time theres a rustle at the door or a bang, they cant settle down again. So then they have to leave their own home because of that. Absolutely. Im so im a social worker. Ive worked with people whose homes have been burgled. I have seen people who have needed to leave their home. Theyve suffered nervous breakdowns having said that, i dont think that robbing someones house, destroying their life is warrant the death penalty, as it were. I dont think the person deserves to die , but people would be less likely to take extreme action if theyif likely to take extreme action if they if they thought there was a chance that if they called the police, this person might get arrested. You know, if they did arrested. You know, if they did get arrested, they might serve some time in jail. Get arrested, they might serve some time in jail. We have a some time in jail. We have a double pincer of weak laws that dont keep people in jail. And on the other side is the other claw of the pincer is the absolute defunding and letting down of our rural police forces. Down of our rural police forces. And it just so happens its a farmer. You can barely see a Police Patrol or Something Like that in rural areas, and it has had an impact and people feel that they need to protect themselves. Well, of course, and i think that were going to see more and more of that actually, because people, dont feel that they can rely on. Right. If im going to ring 999, this situation will be resolved in a timely manner , the resolved in a timely manner, the majority of burglaries didnt actually reach a conviction or anything like that last year , anything like that last year, and i dont actually, i dont think its actually taken perhaps as seriously as it ought to be, peter says, ive got a sign on my front window that says, if youre thinking of breaking into my home first, make peace with your maker because youll shortly be meeting him. Called blimey, peter , i think perhaps people peter, i think perhaps people would think twice about entering your home, how far youre allowed to go to protect our property should be all the way. No ifs or buts , says john, but no ifs or buts, says john, but other people writing in and saying. But actually, hang on saying. But actually, hang on a second, because if thats the way, then anyone could just bnng way, then anyone could just bring anyone into their house and do whatever they wanted to do under the guise of them being potentially a burglar. Ill leave you to ponder it overnight, aaron, thank you very much for your time yourself. Thank you for yours too. And you at home. I always appreciate your company, but dont go anywhere because nigel farage is up next. And ill see you tomorrow night. A brighter outlook with boxt solar , sponsors of weather on. Solar, sponsors of weather on. Gb news. Hello. Good evening. Its been another dry and fine day for many of us, and therell be more in the way of sunshine to come tomorrow, and it should be a warmer day for most of us. However cloudier skies are starting to approach the northwest as this weather front moves in. Wont make too much progress overnight. Further progress overnight. Further elsewhere across the country as High Pressure is building in so it should be a fairly clear and dry night for the bulk of england and wales. Cloudier skies will affect parts of northern england, Northern Ireland and in particular much of scotland, where the rain will turn quite persistent across the northwest overnight. So quite a damp night to come. Probably a damp night to come. Probably a damp start to the day, but elsewhere it should be a bright and mild start to the day quite widely. Temperatures will be in double digits by thursday morning. Any mist a mist and fog that has formed overnight should clear quite readily. Its most likely across coastal areas across england and wales , and across england and wales, and that will give way to another day of long lived sunny spells. And its going to feel warmer in that sunshine than today. And that sunshine than today. And the sunshine should spread up and further north into northwestern areas of scotland as that weather front pushes north. Highs of 2223, possibly 24 degrees across central areas of england on thursday. Again, theres a risk of mist and fog to start the day on friday. The sunshine could be a bit hazy first thing, but it should brighten up quite quickly through the day and i think most areas will see a day of long lived sunny spells. And once again, its going to be feeling fairly warm, long lived sunshine to come on saturday. A risk of showers on sunday, but temperatures are climbing towards 25 or 26 degrees. Looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news. Good evening. Yes. Another defection. Another conservative mp joins the labour party. But natalie lthink is one of the very last people you would have thought to do it. The centre for policy studies produces a report today on migration saying economically, its bad for us. And guess what . It even has an impact on housing. Well, at least they finally managed to catch up with 1 or 2 of these things. And last night, a vote at the garrick club by 60 to 40 votes to admit women members. Is this a victory for diversity, or is it just very weak men flying the flag, the white flag of surrender to the Guardian Newspaper will debate that to towards the end of the show. But before all of that, lets get the. News. The. News. Nigel, thank you very much and good evening to you. Its just coming up to 701. And the top story from the newsroom tonight. Conservative mp Natalie Elphicke has switched to labour, accusing rishi sunak of leading accusing rishi sunak of leading a tired and chaotic government. A tired and chaotic government. The mp for dover has revealed the reason she defected were housing and issues with uk borders. Downing street, though, has brushed off questions about