Jerry hayes and the transcaucasia expert and former labour mp stephen pound. As labour mp stephen pound. As always, i want to hear from you. Its the most important part of the programme. Email mail the programme. Email me. Mail gbnews. Com. Its time for gbnews. Com. Now its time for the news the with polly the news of the day with polly middlehurst. Middlehurst. Jacob thank you and good evening to you. Well, downing street tonight has confirmed 12 british citizens were killed dunng british citizens were killed during the hamas terror attack in israel. Another five are still missing. And it comes still missing. And it comes after an 85 year old israeli hostage released by hamas last night described the hell of being taken into a spider web of underground tunnels in gaza. Yakov also said she was treated well and seen by a doctor during her ordeal. Hamas says she was returned along with other israeli women. Nurit cooper on israeli women. Nurit cooper on humanitarian grounds. Their husbands are being held as hostages. Yakovs daughter, hostages. Yakovs daughter, sharon , whos a british citizen, sharon, whos a british citizen, translated her mothers description of her abduction in a swarm of people came through the fence. The defence costs 2. 5 billion shekels and it didnt help even a little bit. My mum is saying that she was taken on the back of a motorbike when she first arrived. They told them that they are muslims and theyre not going to hurt them and that they share. They ate the same food that their , the, the hamas was that their, the, the hamas was eating. Eating. Meanwhile , the israeli meanwhile, the Israeli Security agency has released footage of interviews with captured hamas fighters where one says they were promised huge rewards for capturing hostages. Rewards for capturing hostages. In gaza. Whoever brings the kidnapped gets a bonus. How much is the bonus . They give an apartment and 10,000 for each person captured . Yes. For each person captured . Yes. Who told you this . Thats how it works in al qassam brigades. The works in al qassam brigades. The commander told you this . Yes the Company Commander for each captured , you get an apartment . Captured, you get an apartment . Yes, because they wanted as many kidnapped as possible. The many kidnapped as possible. The goal of our infiltration for them was to capture and kidnap as many as we could. As many as we could. Meanwhile, in news here at home, the number of hotels being used by the government to house Asylum Seekers currently costing £8 million a day is going to be reduced. The immigration minister saying today 50 will be exited by january. And that process will start in the coming days. But the mp for walthamstow, stella creasy, says refugees in her constituency have already been told to vacate their hotels with just a weeks notice. Their hotels with just a weeks nofice. She their hotels with just a weeks notice. She says the governments policy is leaving many Asylum Seekers on the street. Now the met office is street. Now the met office is warning tonight of more bad weather on the way with a yellow weather on the way with a yellow weather warning and an alert for rain in the south east of england in force from this evening until 10 00 tomorrow morning. Well, two women who morning. Well, two women who died in a crash have been named by police as cheryl woods and sarah smith from caerphilly in wales. The mother and daughter were involved in a five vehicle collision on the m4 last friday because of the storm. And a man who died after his car was swept away in floodwater in aberdeen has also been named as peter pelling. At least seven people are now thought to have lost their lives during storm babet last year with gb news across the uk on tv. In your car, on Digital Radio and on your Smart Speaker by saying play gb news. This is britains news channel. This is britains news channel. The government is set to begin terminating contracts with hotels housing migrants across the united kingdom. The plans should see about 50 hotels out of 400, having their contracts ended. This regime currently costs you about £3 billion per annum as 175,000 migrants await their asylum application to be processed. The policy originates from the asylum act of 1999. Another legacy of the blair years. It requires the government to house Asylum Seekers, but its come at a great financial cost and a social cost as well. Many community is affected by the policy with the number of small towns and villages expressed concern over the plans to bring hundreds of young men seeking asylum to their communities. But all of this just goes to show that the rwanda plan must work if we are to solve our migration problems, particularly our illegal migration problem, and making the rwanda plan work means leaving the European Court of human rights or facing years of human rights or facing years of delay. And this isnt of delay. And this isnt a problem unique to the united kingdom. France is set to implement its toughest crackdown on foreign criminals in 30 years. Its interior minister. Thats the equivalent of home secretary announced plans to expel foreigners deemed to be dangerous without waiting for the echr to hear their appeals. In other words, it is doing something that the echr will deem to be improper. The court the echr court could impose a fine on the french, but they will still refuse re entry to the criminals. And this is part of broader plans from the french government to deport rejected Asylum Seekers and it ties in with some of the gripes we have about the echr, isnt as about the echr, which isnt as some have just an some would have it, just an extension of brexit. Its because there are other problems with the echr to and the main difficulty for us and other countries within europe arises from the courts method of judicial interpretation known as the living instrument doctrine , the living instrument doctrine, which allows the court to expand beyond what it was agreed that it should do when it was set up amidst the court to invent rights that werent in the original convention, but are in the, quote, spirit of the convention. But theres no democratic mandate for this. Theres no authority for this. Its decided by the judges. Its decided by the judges. Theyre the ones who decide which are in the spirit which rights are in the spirit of the convention, not you. And these judges are, in some cases, politically nominated, not ours, but from other countries. And but from other countries. And theres very distinguished theres a very distinguished former Supreme Court lord former Supreme Court judge, lord sumption out there sumption has pointed out there is nothing in the echr that we cannot enact by ordinary domestic legislation. We can have whatever rights we want if there sufficient democratic there is sufficient democratic mandate for them. And thats the point at our rights come from our democracy , not from you, the our democracy, not from you, the people. Through parliament, not from the echr. So its time to leave the convention so that we can pursue to our own unabated migration policy as always, you know, i want to hear from you. Let me know your thoughts by mail. Margaret gbnews. Com. Well, joining me now is my very distinguished panel barrister and former tory mp gerry hayes and former tory mp gerry hayes and transcaucasia expert and and the transcaucasia expert and former labour mp stephen pound. Gerry youre a lawyer. Yes, isnt it time we decided to legislate for ourselves and got out of the convention and the court . Most people dont understand the french understand it, that we dont have to obey what they say in strasbourg. We have to take note. Do you remember . Oh, gosh. Years ago they decreed that we had to have prisoners voting rights. Whats happened, jacob . Absolutely nothing. And what do the french nothing. And what do the french say . Well this doctrine we were talking about the sort of living instrument, blah, blah , blah, instrument, blah, blah, blah, blah, make up laws, as you go along that will go. Along that will go. So this is absolutely true that the echr judgements do not have direct effect, unlike the European Court of justice. But European Court of justice. But they were able to issue an injunction that stopped the rwanda flight taking off. Absolutely right. Our court at that point had accepted that the flight could take off, and if we lost in the end, people would be brought back. So we were directly overruled by the European Court on a policy that was about to happen and had a mandate from parliament. And we shouldnt have been because whats more , we werent because whats more, we werent allowed to put our case. This was done ex parte. Thats it. Was done ex parte. Thats it. Done and this is what a lot of people who are members of the Convention Say is totally wrong. Lets renegotiate it or lets change it all. But dont lets get out of it. Okay. So stephen, what gerry is basically saying is lets stay in the convention but ignore it. No, no, hes not saying that. This is the first time we get an opinion from gerry hayes. That didnt. You 500 didnt. It doesnt cost you 500 guineas. Ill say. And i think its worth having. Look, its well worth having. Look, the that we have the reality is that we have mr justice ike, who very justice ike, who probably very few people in this country have heard our. Heard of, who is our. Looked up in the green we looked him up in the green room. We all know who he you know. But is he related to david . Ike . Well, hope not. No, hes not. You youre not the first. He looked it up earlier. Who . Never heard of him before. But listen, ive heard of david. Ike. David. The point being that when churchill established these freedoms for us, which was in the environment, the post war environment, i think earth would think who on earth would disagree right to life, disagree with the right to life, the to religion . You know, the right to religion . You know, but the problem its the but the problem is its the elasticity of the way the elasticity of the way that the judges interpreted judges have actually interpreted it. The it. When you talk about the right family life, i used to right to family life, i used to deal with people who were absolute wronguns come deal with people who were abso here nronguns come deal with people who were abso here completely come deal with people who were abso here completely illegally,e deal with people who were abso hena ompletely illegally,e deal with people who were abso hena couple ely illegally,e deal with people who were abso hena couple of illegally,e deal with people who were abso hena couple of children,e fathered a couple of children, right family thats right to family life. Thats wrong. Say, i believe wrong. But i must say, i believe in actually reform, you know, not destruction. Yeah. And i think, really want to be think, do we really want to be seen as country in europe that seen as a country in europe that says, you know, believe in says, you know, we do believe in the penalty, we believe the death penalty, we do believe that there right to family that there is no right to family life. Theres no freedom of religion. Should religion. I think we should actually to decency. Actually sign up to decency. Dont believe in death i dont believe in the death penalty. I support it. But penalty. I dont support it. But i its a right for i think its a right for parliament to determine not the right European Court. Right of the European Court. But you remember, the yes, but if you remember, the case that were talking about yes, but if you remember, the case actuallyre talking about yes, but if you remember, the case actually referred1g about yes, but if you remember, the case actually referred to about yes, but if you remember, the case actually referred to ourjt was actually referred to our Supreme Court. But its being dealt with. Its referred to court. But a risk the other but theres a risk the other way around that this court may decide that abortion is a fundamental right, i would decide that abortion is a fundawouldl right, i would decide that abortion is a fundawouldl rigabsolutelyi would think would be absolutely monstrous. Think would be absolutely monstrotcouldnt that. Are they couldnt do that. Are you sure . Yes, of course. They couldnt do that. Certainly but theres talk certainly but theres been talk that could and that they could do this. And if its its living document, its if its a living document, bear mind, bear in mind what bear in mind, bear in mind what the europe, us Supreme Court the europe, the us Supreme Court did. Decided that abortion did. It decided that abortion was right then it decided was a right and then it decided 50 years later that it wasnt totally. A second. Totally. No, hang on a second. Deferred it the no, they deferred it to the states. They put it back to the states. They put it back to the states. Reason everybody states. The reason everybody thinks war states. The reason everybody thin was war states. The reason everybody thin was about war states. The reason everybody thin was about it war was was about slavery. It wasnt. About states wasnt. It was about states rights. Yes thats right. And the supreme judgement the Supreme Court judgement specifically, states. Yes, absolutely exactly. Yes, absolutely right. But roe v wade right. Yeah. But the roe v wade judgement that it was judgement had said that it was above states rights. It was and was it was indeed. And that was repealed court. Repealed by the Supreme Court. But thats go but so thats where you go when you have Supreme Courts that you have the Supreme Courts that they they can use this they determine they can use this living instrument doctrine to go into areas that the into all sorts of areas that the draughters of the document had no go it. They go into it. They go into it. Is wrong to compare the it is wrong to compare the supreme united Supreme Court of the United States america with the echr states of america with the echr there is no real comparison at all in america. You have to obey all in america. You have to obey what the Supreme Court says. We dont have to hear. Gerry, your position seems to me to be really difficult to maintain because youre saying its fine to belong. We just its fine to belong. We just take no notice of it. Now youre a lawyer. We take note. What is the point . We take note. We take note. We sort of, you know, we take note, but dont follow. Look, what is the essence of the british constitution . You should know your leader of the house. Its little bit of the house. Its a little bit of the house. Its a little bit of but there are some of fudge, but there are some things that actually work. So an act of parliament is our senior law. A judgement of the courts has to followed to the courts has to be followed to belong court and ignore its belong to a court and ignore its judgement much judgement seems to me to be much worse than saying we wont belong organisation. Belong to this organisation. From that, then if we resile from that, then quite clearly there are certain rights actually rights that we would actually wish therefore, wish to maintain. Therefore, wed enact them into wed have to enact them into british which british legislation, which would mean the constitution. Do we really mean the constitution. Do we realljdont thats right. I dont think thats right. I dont think thats right. It would be. The idea would be written consent. Be creating a written consent. Think thats i simply dont think thats right, we had right, because we had that before, actually. Well, no, had it before. Well, you dont need a were you time we had a you the only time we had a written constitution was when cromwell around. A cromwell was around. It was a disaster. You disaster. And we dont want. You always turn around always used to turn around the statue didnt you, statue of cromwell, didnt you, in commons. I think in the house of commons. I think youre referring to the butcher in the house of commons. I think yo drogheda. 1g to the butcher in the house of commons. I think yo drogheda. And the butcher in the house of commons. I think yo drogheda. And im� butcher in the house of commons. I think yo drogheda. And im no itcher in the house of commons. I think yo drogheda. And im no fanzr in the house of commons. I think yo drogheda. And im no fan of of drogheda. And im no fan of cromwell, but doesnt lead cromwell, but it doesnt lead automatically a written automatically to a written constitution does. Does it do have to it does it do we have to enact the whole raft of that legislation that we want to keep . Want cherry pick keep . Do we want to cherry pick the enact that we the echr and enact that we maintain view of maintain our dicey in view of the constitution and of parliamentary sovereignty and that our democracy, that based on our democracy, parliament can enact whatever laws it sees fit. But jacob, you laws it sees fit. Butjacob, you and i, in various ways are conservatives as they look at that. No, but we believe in many people say that. No, you we believe in pragmatism. Pragmatism. And the pragmatic way is just to reform. Dont destroy. Okay to reform. Dont destroy. Okay im afraid for once i wouldnt reform. Id leave. But thank you to my panel. Wouldnt reform. Id leave. But thank you to my panel. Such wouldnt reform. Id leave. But thank you to my panel. Such an iconoclast. You know your iconoclast. You know your thoughts. Male margaret gb news. Com. Coming up next, a new fissure has emerged between europe and the anglosphere, while america and britain pledged their full support for israels defence against genocidal terrorism, the europeans are calling for a ceasefire. Plus the isis bride, shamima begum, is back in the courts but should be allowed back into the uk control. Youre listening to gb news radio. News radio. Welcome back. Im still Jacob Rees Mogg , and youve guessed rees mogg, and youve guessed it, this is still state of the nafion it, this is still state of the nation and youve been getting in touch with your thoughts. Nick says at last, the french are something are doing something constructive. People come constructive. These people come illegally, them illegally, deport them accordingly. Illegally, deport them accord vive. Illegally, deport them accord vive la france, says nick. Same. Vive la france, says nick. Steady on, jill. I fear the steady on, jill. I fear the closure of Migrant Hotels is just more words where will these people be housed . And what about the hundreds still coming . Well now french president Emmanuel Macron is on a two day trip to israel to demonstrate frances support for israel. In a press support for israel. In a press conference with benjamin netanyahu, the israeli Prime Minister had this to say. We are doing everything we need to do to destroy hamas in gaza. Need to do to destroy hamas in gaza. We will dismantle its gaza. We will dismantle its terror machine. We will dismantle its political structure. We will make every structure. We will make every effort to release our hostages and will make every effort to keep Palestinian Civilians out of harms way. Its important to understand hamas is committing a double war crime. Its not only murdering our civilians, targeting our civilians , doing targeting our civilians, doing unspeakable war crimes. Theyre also hiding behind civilians, their own civilians. Their own civilians. As israels position after this terrible outrage is not easy, it finds itself being watched under the worlds moral microscope with, as we discuss with International Lawyer yesterday, natasha harsdorf , yesterday, natasha harsdorf, allegations of war crimes being made. But a new fissure has emerged in the international community, while britain and america have asserted full support for counter offensives in gaza to root out Hamas Terrorists , the french prime terrorists, the french Prime Minister elisabeth borne , as minister elisabeth borne, as well as chief eu diplomat joseph borrell, have argued for ceasefires to enable aid to enter gaza, as well as time for hostage negotiations. Im joined now by toby lanzer, the former assistant secretary general to the United Nations. Mr lanzer, thank you very much for joining me. Do you think a ceasefire would help . Is practical . And to what extent does it undermine israels right to self defence . I think the semantics really do matter. First of all, thank do matter. First of all, thank you so much for inviting me on to your program this evening. But semantics and words are very important. Emotions are running incredibly high. I think that speaking of a ceasefire at this stage is rather unrealistic and im somewhat taken aback by the number of senior officials who are using that word. I can are using that word. I can understand a group of un. Agencies aid workers, if you will, who invoke such such terms. But i dont think it will resonate with israel and it probably shouldnt right now. Probably shouldnt right now. I think thats very helpful. I think thats very helpful. That language is important and some aid is going in through rafah. So israel seems to be managing the proportionality risk responsibly and trying to ensure that civilians are protected while whilst still being able to go after the terrorists. S who attacked it so terrorists. S who attacked it so grievously last week. Well all grievously last week. Well all i would like to remind your viewers, if i may, that gaza is a tiny territory. Its the size of rutland county. Um, and which i think has got about 37,000 People Living in it, whereas gazas got 2. 2 Million People. Now imagine if youve got relentless force waged against you for very legitimate reasons , if i may legitimate reasons, if i may say. I think flushing out hamas is in the uks interest and that of other countries. But with that amount of force waged over such a small territory, it is difficult to guarantee proportionality, ensure the safety of civilians. I think that israel has tried to do that , but inevitably it will be difficult. And so one would hope that sooner rather than later, some form of modus operandi for the aid agencies could be put in place, um, to enable medicines , place, um, to enable medicines, food and shelter to be delivered to civilians in the southern part of gaza , where at this part of gaza, where at this stage youve got 1. 5 Million People who have been displaced and who are looking for a place to stay, and they do need help and everyone would want to help the civilians. The difficulty is, i suppose, trying to differentiate between the civilians and the terrorists and inevitable. Only many of the and inevitable. Only many of the terrorists will take cover within the civilian population. Within the civilian population. And we dont want aid to be getting through to them. Getting through to them. I think thats a point that many of your viewers will understand. And its good that youve made it. Understand. And its good that youve made it. There understand. And its good that youve made it. There is understand. And its good that youve made it. There is another youve made it. There is another point, which under International Humanitarian law , which which humanitarian law, which which appuesin humanitarian law, which which applies in these sorts of situations , there is the notion situations, there is the notion and forgive me for invoking a french term , but its or combat french term, but its or combat it means that when somebody is not directly engaged in combat or hostilities, they are considered as civilian. Its considered as civilian. Its extra ordinarily difficult for the aid agencies or any any decent politician if i may say, who cares about people to make sure that aid always goes to the right people . Ive struggled with that during much of my own career in afghanistan , in in in career in afghanistan, in in in sudan and other places. Um, but sudan and other places. Um, but the aid agencies are quite professional and i, i wouldnt trust them with, with such a task when the time is right and of course with, with the support of course with, with the support of the Key Countries such as the uk who, who are going to be playing such a key role throughout the middle east, but in particular at the moment with this particular for rather gruesome situation facing facing all of us in flushing out some us. Us. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for your time this evening. Well, with me now is my panel still a barrister and former tory mp jerry hayes and the former labour mp stephen and labour mp stephen pound. And it is very difficult, but its not helpful to call for a ceasefire at the moment. Lets be absolutely honest. Look this liberal gone into look this liberal has gone into a l look this liberal has gone into a , liberalism died in a corner, liberalism has died in this particular case. If we had a ceasefire, remember a ceasefire, do you remember when the rwanda war, when we had the rwanda war, people talking about us, people were talking about us, get genocide. Talking get the genocide. Were talking about to rwanda. And about giving aid to rwanda. And somebody you about giving aid to rwanda. And somnhave you about giving aid to rwanda. And somnhave the you about giving aid to rwanda. And somnhave the corpses. You about giving aid to rwanda. And somnhave the corpses. But you still have the corpses. But theyd be well fed corpses. The reality a reality is, if you had a ceasefire of a hamas ceasefire the chances of a hamas agreeing to a ceasefire, id say are than zero anyway. And are less than zero anyway. And when people say put pressure on hamas ceasefire, hamas for a ceasefire, put pressure that is just pressure on israel, that is just risible. Ludicrous to even pretend. Well, the problem is you can put pressure on israel, but you cant put pressure on. But the reality is, if there was a ceasefire, what have you got . Youve frozen the present conflict in its present situation. Youve solved absolute nothing. Reality absolute nothing. The reality is that one side has declared war and other and sadly, and the other and sadly, tragically, heartbreakingly , tragically, heartbreakingly, that has to be seen through. That war has to be seen through. Be right. Of jerry that must be right. Of course its right. Civilised civil allied nafions civilised civil allied nations are trying to sort out this terrible conundrum. At the this terrible conundrum. At the end of the day, hamas wants the destruction israel. They want destruction of israel. They want the death of every single jew man , woman and child. Man, woman and child. But there are over 2 million People Living in gaza , the People Living in gaza, the majority of whom are not terrorists and probably dont support terrorists. Support terrorists. Of course, youre absolutely right. But we know that of course, youre absolutely right. But we know that hamas use hospitals. We know they use orphanages to hide their weapons. And its an Impossible Task for israel. And the Prime Minister said yesterday, which is really important, that the hospital that was damaged was almost certainly be a hamas rocket and not an israeli bomb. And that israel initially was blamed for this great atrocity. So its really important that people get the truth about too late. Its too late. Too late, its too late. Its gone around the world late. Its gone around the world because stevens point, israel comes under pressure always not to do things to hold back. Yes. Whilst the terrorists just go ahead and a terrorist. Yes. Well, truth is the First Casualty of war. We know casualty of war. We all know that. I think its that. Yeah, i think its extraordinarily interesting. At this particular hospital was founded Church Founded and funded by the church of you know, when of england. You know, when you think israel palestine think its the israel palestine is rich is surrounded by oil rich states. Why on is the poor states. Why on earth is the poor Protestant Church in this country to that . Country having to fund that . But look, during the look, the reality is, during the last war, when we were bombing dresden, people were saying innocent will hurt. Innocent civilians will be hurt. When dresden, the when we bombed dresden, the awful total war is awful reality of total war is that it awful reality of total war is thatitis awful reality of total war is that it is total war. Now, im not blaming. I weep, i bleed for the people in gaza. I just ive actually sent money for medical aid for what do we do . We had to see do we do and to win the war. Stephen, what do we do . And the answer is the west doesnt know. We know the elephant in the room and the elephant in the room iran. We are going to room is iran. We are going to have make some really tough have to make some really tough decisions on iran. You to my panel. But thank you to my panel. Coming up next, should the jihadi shamima jihadi bride, Shamima Shamima begum , be allowed back into the begum, be allowed back into the uk to face trial . Plus, the government is set to axe the cap on bankers bonuses in a post brexit boost to the city of london. The key contact your listening to gb news radio show. To gb news radio show. Welcome back. Our man, Jacob Rees Mogg. And youve been getting in touch with your thoughts. James says we must get aid into gaza. The scenes from there absolutely shocking and natalie self is natalie says self defence is good, but its risk for people good, but its a risk for people in the welfare of others in gaza. The welfare of others is key. What they should try to do get rid of hamas first do is get rid of hamas first before rebuild the before trying to rebuild the country to help the get country to help the aid get through. Well thank you for those thoughtful messages. Through. Well thank you for thos now thoughtful messages. Through. Well thank you for thos now i thoughtful messages. Through. Well thank you for thos now i would 1tful messages. Through. Well thank you for thos now i would bel messages. Through. Well thank you for thos now i would be remiss ages. Through. Well thank you for thos now i would be remiss ifes. Through. Well thank you for thos now i would be remiss if i;. And now i would be remiss if i didnt give a short vote of thanks to westminster magistrates who today issued three sentences for the Just Stop Oil protesters who invaded the pitch at lords during the ashes. I was there watching it as it happens, back in june, three members of the Climate Change group took upon change action group took it upon themselves interrupt the themselves to interrupt the match wicket keeper , match before the wicket keeper, the jonny bairstow, the heroic jonny bairstow, picked one of them up and carried him off the pitch and just dropped him over the boundary if he were a rotten boundary as if he were a rotten fish anyway, judge fish. Anyway, today a judge issued all of them with a 12 Month Community order and perhaps most gratifyingly banned them well, joining them from lords. Well, joining me , a quick on the me now, a quick comment on the matter is just Oil Spokesman zoe cohen. Matter is just Oil Spokesman zoe cohen. Zoe, thank you very much cohen. Zoe, thank you very much for joining me. Is this forjoining me. Is this justice done. Thanks for having me on. Well, im really conscious that youre probably really only having me on as some balance for ofcom to cover up your misinformation. Well, tell me what the misinformation is. Youre on. Youve got the floor. Well , you push youve got the floor. Well, you push misinformation on denial and delay as among climate regularly and have done for many years and havent been working for many years. Working for many years. Weve only been going for two years. So we cant have been doing for that long. Okay doing it for that long. Okay me many months, but forgive me many months, but what youre youre doing what youre what youre doing here footage of here is showing the footage of the action what should the action and what you should be is showing the be doing, jacob, is showing the footage climate impacts. Footage of climate impacts. Thats what you should be doing is footage of storm babbitt, footage of peoples homes being wiped away, footage of crops , wiped away, footage of crops, failure. Well what id say to you, as ive said before here, is why dont you stand for election and see if you can get people to vote for you to have the policies that you want. I stand for election and put fonnard policies that i think the british people will want and will you believe in will like. If you believe in what youre why dont what youre saying, why dont you names fonnard for you put your names fonnard for election rather than disturbing peoples pleasure pointlessly. Peoples pleasure pointlessly. So to be honest , your so to be honest, your misinformation is betraying your own children. I actually feel own children. I actually feel really sorry for your own children. Thats very kind of you. But im asking you, why dont you stand for election . Because you know full well jacob. You know full well we havent got time. You know, weve gone got time. You know, weve gone past 1. 5 degrees this year , and past 1. 5 degrees this year, and little , little sixtus is going little, little sixtus is going to be. How old will sixtus be in . Sixtus is 62. Sixtus splendidly is six. So an ideal age for somebody called sixtus. But this isnt really the point. The point is, can you persuade the british people in a democracy that what youre saying is true . If you can, you will fall . The former government and youll be able to make these choices. Dont you try that . Choices. Why dont you try that . Why to do it by why do you have to do it by protest, actually protest, which is actually making cause less popular. Making your cause less popular. We have to do it because we face nonsense like this. Jacob. We face people like you who push misinformation and delay. You misinformation and delay. You earn 30 grand a month. Earn 30 grand a month. Is this remarkably little to do with your upsetting lords or destroying peoples pleasure when going to the theatre or stopping people getting to the doctor . Ill ask you again, why dont you stand for election and try and win a democratic. Well, we dont have a working democracy in this country. People we have been sounding the alarm for generations, for decades now , jacob, we have decades now, jacob, we have a working. We have a working democracy which you wont participate in that doesnt give you the right to disrupt peoples pleasure. But thank you for joining peoples pleasure. But thank you forjoining me. But thank you for joining me. Its always a pleasure. I can see placard. Would you even see your placard. Would you even protest when youre down the line . Its brilliant. Thank you line . Its brilliant. Thank you very much indeed. Children, very much indeed. Children, speaking young recalcitrance, speaking of young recalcitrance, the former jihadi bride, speaking of young recalcitrance, the formerjihadi bride, shamima begum, is back in the news as her legal team is set to take her legal team is set to take her case to the court of appeal in a bid to get her british citizenship restored. And ms begum from bethnal in begum is from Bethnal Green in east and 2015, aged east london. And in 2015, aged only 15, when she made the decision to travel to the isis controlled territory in syria via turkey in 2019. Once ms begum had escaped from isis and wanted to return to the uk, the then home secretary , sajid then home secretary, sajid javid, took the decision to revoke her citizenship earlier this year, the special Immigration Appeals Commission ruled that her legal defence was not enough to overrule the revocation of her citizenship. And so the appeal is set to take place over the next few days. Well, joined now by philip well, im joined now by philip taylor, a friend of the program and barrister philip shaw. He and barrister philip shaw. He was a british citizen. And it was a british citizen. And it seems to me that if she committed criminal acts, the place for her to be tried for them is here. She is our responsibility as a nation. I find this very interesting approach. Im a very orthodox person when it comes to looking at the way that we use the rule of law itself. My view is that of law itself. My view is that ms begum took her own decision to actually give her rights up when she left and went and support did these horrendous groups. And i dont believe that she should have the right to come back to this country as a result because shes given it up. But she hasnt had this taken away from her by a trial. Shes had it taken away by the executive is the executive and this is fundamentally the executive and this is fu|the nentally the executive and this is fu|the law ally the executive and this is fu|the law iny the executive and this is fu|the law in the uk, that if of the law in the uk, that if youre punished for something in this country, it must be by a court. Judgement of your court. And the judgement of your peers one of most peers that is one of our most ancient rights. Do hear ancient rights. Well i do hear that point, i do believe that point, but i do believe that point, but i do believe that are some some that there are some some occasions an occasions where there is an overriding of a particular set of circumstances, isnt this is one of them where she actually has taken a decision which im sure many people in this country , she would agree with me on, which is that she should not come back to this country because shes forfeited her rights. Rights. But if british citizens but surely the forfeit should be done by a court. But doesnt it also create two categories of british citizenship. Now, i dont know citizenship. Now, i dont know where either of your parents born abroad . No did either of them have foreign citizenship . Them have foreign citizenship . So you and i are top tier british citizens. No court can british citizens. No court can take away our citizenship at all. We cant be declared outlaws, to use the mediaeval term. But if you have a parent term. But if you have a parent born overseas , the government born overseas, the government can deem you not to be british. Is it that against everything weve tried to do in terms of ensuring that we have one level of british citizenship in this country, that we are all entitled to . And when youve got that british passport, you are as british as the king well, i think that in certain circumstances it has to be taken away, which is what mr javid did. And if it cant be taken away from you, it can only be taken away from the children of migrants whove never lived necessarily as the case of ms begum in the country, theyre then told theyve got citizenship. I hear what you say, but i still believe the orthodox view is that when does what shes is that when she does what shes done, shes given up her right and you will set a very dangerous precedent. I think if you allow her to come back, i think thats giving up. The right is also an extraordinary thing to say about somebody who was 15, who was forcibly married. Shes not allowed buy cigarettes allowed to buy cigarettes in this country. And yet youre this country. And yet youre saying that she forfeits all her rights a british citizen , rights as a british citizen, that allowed to vote. That shes not allowed to vote. She has now shes over 18, but she wasnt at the time. Thats quite a thing to say of somebody she who has never had any association with bangladesh. The country shes deemed to have citizenship of. If she was citizenship of. If she was trafficked , she was raped. Yes. Trafficked, she was raped. Yes. She went out voluntarily. But as a 15 year old and then shes stripped of her citizenship with no action of a court. And you have created this second tier of citizenship. So youd make a very fine defence barrister , if i may say defence barrister, if i may say so. Very flattering because the point i would make is that youve given a very, very good mitigation plea for her. My concern is a National Security concern is a National Security concern for this country and i think its daft to think about allowing to her come back then if there is a National Security concern, she should be prosecuted. If shes committed a crime. But allowing the home secretary to say you have committed a crime, therefore you will no longer a sittin seems to me to be arbitrary law and against the rule of law. Well, you are getting into the realms of making the law, if you like. One of the interesting things about this case is that we do have this wonderful view in english law about dissenting judgements, which we know all about from the court of appeal decision with the lord chief justice over rwanda. Now, what justice over rwanda. Now, what im saying is that the view many people hold is a dissenting judgement today is good law tomorrow. So you could well see changes because the law does actually move with the times. Many people say it doesnt, but it does. It does. You see, i possibly have a very romantic view of british citizenship. I think to be a british citizen is to have the best citizenship of any country in the world. But i think that there is a fundamental equality between all british citizens and that if you took the oath, this afternoon, you are as much as a british citizen as either of us are. And thats fundamental to creating a modern British Society where people accept that they are part of this great nafion they are part of this great nation. But if you say youre nation. But if you say youre only a full british citizen when you have had parents who were both born here, then youre undermining every effort to create this homogenous british nation. Well, i find that a very rigid approach, if i may say so. I understand where youre coming from with this, but im thinking again about one of the problems we had during world war ii, where there are a lot of difficulties concerning people who badly, support who behaved very badly, support fighting the third reich and so forth. And we had to look at forth. And we had to look at that very carefully, i believe, because of where we are at the moment internationally , weve moment internationally, weve got to be very careful with what we do. But we lock, but we lock people up in the uk if we thought they were a threat. I dont object to that. I think that if you have a threat, you are allowed to intern people as we did during the war, but that you do it internally and you prosecute people in these circumstances run arbitrary executive action. Well, the difficulty is youre giving ms begum another bite at the cherry. How many bites of the cherry does she want if shes going to take a decision to say, i dont wish to be part of britain anymore and im to going revoke everything ive done, i dont think she should be given the chance to come back. But i do respect your view, concern earning her her idea that she was a 15 year old girl. Ive got a lot of sympathy. Ive got a lot of sympathy. Ive got a lot of sympathy. Ive got a lot of sympathy. I have a 14 year old daughter is watching and daughter who is watching and shes and clever shes brilliant and much clever than knows her mind and knows her own mind extraordinarily well. So just being 15 doesnt necessarily mean you dont know things anyway , thank you, philip. Anyway, thank you, philip. Coming is it time to coming up next is it time to scrap the cap on the bankers bonus . Do you do when bonus . Plus, what do you do when you find pigeon your you find a pigeon in your bathroom . You dont get in bathroom . You dont get in a flap. Well come back. I continue to identify as Jacob Rees Mogg. And youve been getting in touch with your mail. Moggs brian says people stop on, people should stop coming on, starting statement , you starting with a statement, you know, climate know, in relation to Climate Change. And this is simply not so. And jacob, you are correct. Thank you, brian. If they truly believe their arguments, believe in their arguments, which countered , stand which can be countered, stand for and try truth, for election and try truth, reason persuasion. Every reason and persuasion. Every time i ask them why they dont stand for the for election, they fail answer. Its because fail to answer. And its because they wouldnt win because theyre fanatics anyway. Gary says totally agree with you, jacob. And this is on miss begum. She our responsibility. She. She is our responsibility. She should and face should be returned and face trial and tony, for once, trial here. And tony, for once, jacob, i dont agree with you. Shamima begum should never be allowed country. Allowed back into our country. And lot of people and tony, i know a lot of people who agree with on most things who i agree with on most things disagree on this one disagree with me on this one issue. You for your issue. But thank you for your response as his majestys government failed to implement the retained eu law bill properly, swathes of unnecessary regulation remain. This included the bankers bonus cap which was imposed on us by the eu against our will. It had the perverse effect of putting up base salaries made the city of salaries and made the city of london less flexible and globally competitive. It was always ways a totemic always in many ways a totemic measure rather than measure of envy rather than a sensible policy. Its demise sensible policy. So its demise is. Welcome back. With me now is my distinguished panel, jerry hayes and stephen pound. Stephen good sensible thing to do. We dont want rules from brussels. Lets give up and allow the lets give them up and allow the market to decide. Come on your youre being very may say. Very provocative, if i may say. I appreciate the certain element of laissez manages to disagree with you, but can i im to with you, but can i say im to coin phrase , supremely relaxed coin a phrase, supremely relaxed about people earning shed loads of money as long as they pay their tax. And thats all that worries me. Know, worries me. You know, let a thousand let thousand flowers bloom. Let people what they get. But, people get what they get. But, you know, and know i mean, you you know, and i know i mean, you were the were jerry, you were in the house thatcher house when Margaret Thatcher decided we couldnt decided that we couldnt give mps because it would mps a pay rise because it would look so they they look bad. So what they did, they went kicked a great went out and kicked a great plethora, a great, extraordinary cornucopia to do it. If cornucopia of scams to do it. If we to bankers, you cant, we said to bankers, you cant, theyll thing know, theyll next thing you know, theyll next thing you know, theyll rembrandts theyll be giving rembrandts instead or stradivarius or something. One of those something. So its one of those simplistic, nonsensical things that if every banker was told that if every banker was told that he or she couldnt have a bonus, it would make not one whit to the nations economy and it make a few people it would just make a few people maybe think, im all right maybe think, gosh, im all right after all, and it would just be virtue theyd virtue signalling. So and theyd get because get round it anyway because theres no one more cunning than theres no one more cunning than the banker the british banker. Its ridiculous. It of course its ridiculous. It wont lets talk about wont work. Lets talk about pigeons. Pigeons. Well, we might come to pigeons , but its a good pigeons later, but its a good example. Pigeons are moving. Example. Pigeons are moving. Pigeons moving from pigeons moving away from european and doing our own european law and doing our own thing and reinforcing the independence of the city of london. Because a lot of the eu city regulation was very damaged long to the city of london particularly, which was ovennhelmingly the largest Financial Centre in europe. I suspect it was designed to be, to be perfectly frank , they be, to be perfectly frank, they want bourse in france to do well. Wanted frankfurt well. They wanted frankfurt to do helps us . Were on do well. What helps us . Were on the timeline and the right timeline and importantly , both of you pro importantly, both of you pro europeans , i think both of you europeans, i think both of you voted remain. Voted remain. This is actually one of the real brexit dividends. Its not just about bankers bonuses is its actually about getting the city of london to be competitive again. Jacob, hang on a, you know, matron , mr rees mogg, sir know, matron, mr rees mogg, sir jacob needs his medication. The big bang in the city of london was brought in. If you remember. Michael howard indeed. We know in the auspices Margaret Thatcher howard indeed. We know in the auspyou Margaret Thatcher howard indeed. We know in the ausp you know, garet thatcher howard indeed. We know in the ausp you know, gar|didnttcher and, you know, we didnt need europe or we cant europe to say we can or we cant do when gordon brown do that. When gordon brown actually of actually gave the bank of england independence, it wasnt he europe to say he didnt wait for europe to say yes we just went ahead yes or no. We just went ahead and did it. We the maastricht we do the maastricht treaty required independence for the bank of england, so was bank of england, so that was tied european treaties and tied into european treaties and the for the city the power grab for the city really after really came after 2008, after the financial crisis , when the financial crisis, when the eu gordon brown eu centralised gordon brown saved the world. Did he really . Yeah. Yeah. How is it a brexit dividend . I dont get brexit dividend . I dont get this because were now free to get the city competitive again. We can deal with mifid two and freedom for bloated bankers, is that it . And bloated bankers bonus that would be so good on the doorstep. In somerset in ealing doorstep. In somerset in ealing as well. Lets this is this is a dividend for the bankers. Well the city is an enormous part of our economy. Our economy. Our economy. We want to be it is the most productive. Yeah. But the optics of it, why is Financial Services our biggest Foreign Exchange is, of course, london and the south east are the only two areas of the country that are net earners rather than net recipients of taxpayers. Optics are terrible. But the optics are terrible. But the optics are terrible. Well, but surely politics is about good economics and making the country work rather than the politics of envy , which no politics of envy, which no bankers bonus boss. Its about people getting to vote for you, isnt it . People vote for you if theyre more prosperous and if theyre more prosperous and if theyre more prosperous and if theyre more prosperous. Yes. If you achieve that vote , tory, you achieve that vote, tory, vote for bankers. Vote for the bankers. Oh, dear. If i was a labour politician, thats what i would say. Well its not vote for the bankers, its vote your own bankers, its vote for your own prosperity better prosperity and vote for a Better Health to Health Service because to stevens , i sometimes stevens point, i sometimes wonder which one of these former tory nonetheless, to tory mp, but nonetheless, to stevens point, you get 45 of their bonus in tax. Yeah, yeah. Thats what pays for the Public Services rather that came here than it went to switzerland. But you think people stupid and i dont people are stupid and i dont i think viewers are hyper intelligent. Course theyre hyper well, of course theyre hyper intelligent. Thats why thats why youre ratings so good. Why youre ratings are so good. Well better than sky. Better than bbc. Well better than sky. Better tha not bbc. Well better than sky. Better tha not always, but we do not always, but we do reasonably well. Weve got wonderful voters, wonderful viewers. But voters, the in north east the voters in North East Somerset know whats going on. Theyre not stupid. They do understand these issues. And i think, dare bang on you rather think, dare i bang on you rather condescend them when you condescend to them when you think that they dont. Think really i i think what is really i think what really people think what really annoys people is in the Public Sector is people in the Public Sector who getting these huge who are getting these huge pay rises appear rises when there doesnt appear to between that. To be any linkage between that. Im thinking of some of the chief Executives Councils chief executives of councils who are much as the are on twice as much as the prime i think theres Prime Minister. I think theres any you can sit any number of people you can sit back look, why earth back and say, look, why on earth are all money . Are they earning all that money . It happens all the time, but then bit then drill down a bit and saying, have they saying, you know, what have they done to get it . What are they doing with it . And how much tax are they paying . A are they paying . Its a different story altogether. Yeah, people who the majority of people who earn pay the earn lots of money pay the majority of taxes. Of the brexit in terms of the brexit dividend, this is part the dividend, this is part of the package for the city. Where we disagree. Heres where we disagree. Which what is what is going which is what is what is going on and is being really on and is being done really well actually one things actually, its one of the things that government is quietly that the government is quietly getting delivering. Getting on with and delivering. You know, i agree with this, but the optics are terrible , but the optics are terrible, arent they, when you think of it on the doorstep . I disagree with that. I if you run the economy. Well, the politics take care of themselves. No they dont. I think honesty is more important than than optics, to be perfectly honest and be fair, id appreciate honesty. Be perfectly honest and be fair, id and eciate honesty. Be perfectly honest and be fair, id and to ate honesty. Be perfectly honest and be fair, id and to ate fair, honesty. Be perfectly honest and be fair, id and to ate fair, go onesty. Be perfectly honest and be fair, id and to ate fair, go. 1esty. Be perfectly honest and be fair, id and to ate fair, go. Come on. And to be fair, go. Come on. Lets have honesty. Lets have some honesty. Honesty . Honesty . Just want optics. You you just want optics. You want with large gin , want optics with a large gin, with a large gin, with a large gin. Okay, but rishi sunak is honest, and he is competent. And the right wing, the tory party, want to destroy him , which is want to destroy him, which is appalling. Well, im supporting him. I want him to do well. I want the conservative. That always a good thing. That always a good thing. Well, thats a different matter altogether. But i do i do want to support the leader of the conservative party. Thats encouraging. Give you the encouraging. Ill give you the final dont want final word. You dont want support sunak, do you . Support rishi sunak, do you . Point from the Labour Party Point of view, im delighted hes there. Boris johnson. Conclude, flanders and and to conclude, flanders and swann wrote a song about the difficulties that occurred. If you found a spider the bath. You found a spider in the bath. But what do you do when you find a pigeon behind the pipes a pigeon stuck behind the pipes in bathroom . Spent in your bathroom . Well i spent rather time trying to rather a long time trying to feed and extricate a pigeon that was you can see from was trapped. As you can see from the video, looked quite happy the video, he looked quite happy once fed with weetabix once he was fed with weetabix and bix weetabix and watered. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Well, here we are in the rees mogg bathroom , just behind rees mogg bathroom, just behind the wall where theres a hatch for the pipes to run. Theres a for the pipes to run. Theres a pigeon as you can see, thats got stuck. Its got some food, got stuck. Its got some food, some weetabix which its eaten quite a bit of, and water which its managed to tip over , but its managed to tip over, but hell get some more in a moment. Weve left the hatch open and then it could hop out here and you can see the hatch that it will have to get through. Then go out over the bar , through the go out over the bar, through the open window. No way. Open window. No way. Well, im glad my pigeon enjoyed his food and water, but hes flown the coop and i rather miss his beady eye of my pigeon friend. And thank you to my friend. And thank you to my panel friend. And thank you to my panel. They were desperate to discuss pigeons. Thats all from me. Jane jacobs, mark dolan. Mark, youre not talking about pigeons tonight, are you . Talking about poisoned pigeons . Yeah. Well ill be honest. Labour backbenchers have thrown a among pigeons thrown a cat among the pigeons because labour not united in because labour are not united in their stance in israel. A reminder that five years of labour would be five years of civil war. Oh, well, thats going to be a really interesting discussion and a good thing to remind everybody about though stephen is mocking that theres some disagreements within the conservative party, which is rather shocking. Thought anyway, thats all coming up after the weather. Ill be back tomorrow at 8 00. Im Jacob Rees Mogg. This has been state of the nafion this has been state of the nation and i hear there rain in some of the country, but some parts of the country, but itll lovely somerset. It itll be lovely in somerset. It always is. The soft rain, soft. The soft rain, soft. Its alex hello again, its alex burkill here your latest gb burkill here with your latest gb news for some news weather update. For some it will little chilly will be a little bit chilly overnight, but in the south we have rain arriving have some heavy rain arriving thats in association with an area low pressure. Currently area of low pressure. Currently just the south west. But this just to the south west. But this is going skirt its way is going to skirt its way eastwards along the English Channel we through the channel as we go through the night that will night into wednesday. That will then a significant amount then bring a significant amount of across southern parts. Of rain across southern parts. The heaviest rain likely to be in the south, southeast and here we could see some disruption to travel, perhaps localised travel, perhaps some localised flooding to elsewhere towards the scotland. Bit wet the east of scotland. Bit wet and cloudy, but further and quite cloudy, but further west northwest, some clear skies, so turning a little bit chilly. A touch of frost possible across some parts of western scotland. A very wet start. The southeast on start. Then in the southeast on wednesday could wednesday morning could cause some during the morning some problems during the morning rush the rain should rush hour. But the rain should clear away and then its a drier picture across many parts of england, wales into northern ireland. Into the ireland. As we go into the afternoon. But cloudy and wet across eastern parts of scotland. Significant scotland. Some significant rainfall possible here. Temperatures near normal for the time of year, highs around 14, possibly 15 celsius as we look towards thursday, its going to be quite an unsettled, wet day. We have a band of rain that will push its north eastwards as push its way north eastwards as we through the morning behind we go through the morning behind it. Hefty showers are it. Then some hefty showers are quite likely. Notice some towards south coast and towards the south coast and perhaps far east as well. Perhaps in the far east as well. And to be quite and its going to be quite bluster unsettled theme bluster to the unsettled theme continues through continues as we go through friday into saturday and temperatures likely to be near normal for the time of year. Who is it . Were for here the show. For energy this time. Show. For energy this time. Welcome to the dinosaur hour. I was married to a therapist and you survived. I thought we were you survived. I thought we were getting hugh laurie second best. My at least you interviewed saddam hussein. Whats that like . I . I was terrified. Im playing strip poker with these three. Oh, no, thank you. Oh, no, thank you. My cds need to be put in alphabetical order. Oh, are you going to be problematic again . Problematic again . The dinosaur. Our sundays at 9 00 on gb news choose ulez gb news. In our top story tonight, the United Nations secretary general says hamass attacks on israel didnt happen in a vacuum. Antonio guterres says there are now clear violations of International Humanitarian law International Humanitarian law in gaza. But israels foreign in gaza. But israels foreign minister eli cohen says theres only one side to support in the conflict. Hes calling for mr guterres to resign, saying hes lost all morality and impartiality. The secretary general says the appalling attacks by the terrorist group cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian People. Palestinian people. All the Palestinian People have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation when they have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence. There the economy is stifled. There people displaced and their homes demolished, their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing. But plight have been vanishing. But the grievances of the Palestinian People cannot justify the appalling attacks by hamas and those appalling attacks cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian People. Palestinian people. Well, today, downing street confirmed 12 british citizens were killed during the hamas terror attack on israel