To hear from you. Its a crucial part of the programme. Email me mail at gb news. But now its time for the news. For the news today with Aaron Armstrong. Today with Aaron Armstrong. Very good evening to you. Its Aaron Armstrong here in the gb newsroom. The Prime Minister has held talks with Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman in the saudi capital, riyadh. His latest stop in series of diplomatic in a series of diplomatic meetings the middle east. Meetings in the middle east. Rishi encouraged saudi rishi sunak encouraged saudi arabia to use its influence to support stability in the region. Support stability in the region. The pair agreed about the importance of avoiding any further escalation of the israel Hamas Conflict , further escalation of the israel Hamas Conflict, but further escalation of the israel Hamas Conflict , but the israel Hamas Conflict, but the Prime Minister will make further stops in the middle east. They are yet to be announced. Well, are yet to be announced. Well, earlier in jerusalem, the Prime Minister told his israeli counterpart, Benjamin Netanyahu , counterpart, Benjamin Netanyahu, that he welcomed the decision to allow humanitarian aid into gaza from egypt and said the uk stood in solidarity with israel and mr netanyahu thanked him for visiting the country, calling it a strong statement of support. In a time of darkness. Rishi in a time of darkness. Rishi sunak, though, stressed israel must adhere to International Law in gaza and the conflict must not spread elsewhere. Not spread elsewhere. Good, productive conversations with both Prime Minister netanyahu and the israeli president herzog. Among israeli president herzog. Among other things, we discussed the importance of this conflict not escalating regional and the importance of getting humanitarian aid into gaza to help people who need it. I also help people who need it. I also had the opportunity to meet families of british nationals who have been taken hostage. We are doing absolutely everything we to get them home. We can to get them home. Asylum seekers have returned to the bibby stockholm in portland port, despite activists attempting to prevent it from happening. A Just Stop Oil protesters obstructed a coach carrying migrants holding banners that read no prison ships and demand humanity. All 39 people were removed from the barge in august after legionella bacteria was discovered. More bacteria was discovered. More than 400 homes have been asked to evacuate in the scottish town of brighton in preparation for the arrival of storm babet. A red weather warning has been issued, meaning there is a risk to life with extensive flooding and winds stronger than 70 miles and winds stronger than 70 miles an hour, forecast at and on next months mtv Europe Music Awards in paris have been cancelled due to security concerns amid the ongoing conflict in israel and gaza. A taylor swift eight. Olivia rodrigo bad bunny and the foo fighters were to be among the nominees for the event in paris. Organisers have cited the volatility of world events. France is currently on its highest security alert level after the murder of a School Teacher in a suspected islamist attack last week. Well this is gb news on tv , on digital radio, gb news on tv, on digital radio, and on your smart speaker, too. Thats it for the moment. Now its back to. Jacob its back to. Jacob this was the Prime Minister, rishi sunak, speaking to the president of israel earlier today. First and foremost, i wanted to express my solidarity with you and your country after you have suffered something unspeakable, a barbaric act of terrorism. And to your last point, we should call it what it is, an act of terrorism perpetrated by an evil terrorist organisation on hamas. Thats what i believe and thats what we will continue to say to terrorism perpetrated by an evil terrorist organisation , hamas. And this was the leader of the opposition speaking last week on the matter. Week on the matter. Real sense of deep anxiety, obviously in relation to the events in israel, the appalling, shocking events , as you know, shocking events, as you know, cold blooded murder of men, women and children in and its terrorism and hamas bears the responsibility for its terrorism and hamas bears the responsibility. Us President Joe Biden said last week the brutal ity of hamas is bloodthirstiness brings to mind the worst, the worst rampages of isis. This is terrorism. But sadly this is terrorism. But sadly for the jewish people, its not. This is terrorism. Even a spokesman for his majesty the king said his majesty the king said his majesty is appalled by and condemns the barbaric act of terrorism in israel. Donald trump James Cleverly david lammy just about every respectable person or institution seems willing to call this brutal act what it is terrorism. But the pubuc what it is terrorism. But the Public Service broadcaster paid for by you , is unwilling to do for by you, is unwilling to do this. And two people were tragically killed in brussels this week. The bbc was willing to call it terrorism. And in the past the bbc has been willing to use the term terror attack to in 2017, when a terrorist killed civilians on Westminster Bridge and a policeman outside parliament. The bbc rightly called it a terror attack. In the 2015 paris bataclan attack. The 2015 paris bataclan attack. The bbc called it a terror attack , too. So when Terrorists Attack, too. So when Terrorists Attack, too. So when Terrorists Attack london, paris or brussels, its terrorism. But brussels, its terrorism. But when its israel, its not. Not. And im afraid this points to something very undesirable. At the bbc during discussion on bbc arabic last week, this happened. Arabic last week, this happened. Why im in tel abib Mohammed Kabir , a man for malcolm. Kabir, a man for malcolm. Hamas. Who sunak of insani al hamas. Who sunak of insani al shana hamas. Who sunak of insani al sharia al islam mo mowlam depher. From catalonias ozal breaffy to him and catalonia. Anis to him and catalonia. Anis parkmobile gaza mohammed. Parkmobile gaza mohammed. In this clip the bbc host was trying to defend the massacre of 1200 people by comparing it to israels attempt to defeat terrorist. The Public Service terrorist. The Public Service broadcaster is trying to create an equivalence between a Democratic State and terrorism. The bbc has just taken several middle east journalists off air for alleged social media activity, including including liking posts of dead israeli bodies. Why should anyone bodies. Why should anyone remotely sympathetic to israel and its situation be forced to continue to pay the licence fee when the bbcs middle east journalists mislead viewers about israels actions , when its about israels actions, when its staff show their true colours on social media, appearing to support or least sympathise support or at least sympathise with terror group. It with a terror group. And when it cant tell truth about cant tell the truth about hamas. , i want to hear hamas. Of course, i want to hear from you. Let me know your thoughts via mail. Margaret gb news dot com. Well, joining me now is roger bolton, former bbc editor presenter. Roger, editor and presenter. Roger, thank you very much for joining me. Why has the bbc so stubbornly decided not to call what hamas did terrorism . What hamas did terrorism . Well, can i just say that thats an extraordinary interest. There are a whole range of brilliant, brave bbc journalist , brilliant, brave bbc journalist, these two said jeremy bowen and working flat out in dangerous circumstances to report fairly. Circumstances to report fairly. Now, in these circumstances , the now, in these circumstances, the bbc will make mistakes for which theyve apologised. But for you to categorise the bbc, i dont work. They fired me twice in this way is totally unfair and unrepresentative. Having said unrepresentative. Having said that , the unrepresentative. Having said that, the problem, the problem is bbc has folded. It has called is bbc has folded. It has called these acts of terror. But is worried about calling the Organisation Organisation is where do you stop . What do you call the Chinese Government when its treating the uyghurs in the way they are, what youve called the burmese and now formerly burmese government . The way its behaving, what do you call the uganda government what uganda government with what its doing . Is to doing . The bbcs job is to report fairly and objectively where it gets it wrong. You pointed out it should apologise when it gets it wrong, but it has described it. Has described it. It it did get it wrong yesterday when it said that the hospital must have been or was most likely to have been bombed by israel, which now seems extremely unlikely. And this stubborn ness on the word terrorism in its first report, thatis terrorism in its first report, that is what it said. And i mean, Tom Tugendhat went through this very clearly on the today programme this morning. Sorry, jacob, im sorry to interrupt, but he did correct that. It makes mistakes, it must correct it. But for you to categorise that single mistake as being representative of the reporting , anybody who listens reporting, anybody who listens to the today programme knows thatis to the today programme knows that is not true. That is not true. That mistake is very important when it ties in with the refusal to call terrorism terrorism. Its trying to equate a democratic government with a terrorist organisation and treat their claims equally , which their claims equally, which cant be sensible. Journalism well, its sensible journalism to report what you know, to be fact and to seek alternative and other views, and thatis alternative and other views, and that is what the bbc does. Look, ive heard bbc say of those what happenedin ive heard bbc say of those what happened in israel is terrorism. And so they should call it that. But just like the ira 30 or 40 years ago, you know, they committed terrorist acts, but they militant republicans. They were militant republicans. What the bbc as well and what the bbc is concerned about is they want the bbc wants people to believe what they say. And theyre addressing those people who dont want to be what they say. So the bbc starts reporting, saying this is a terrorist organisation. Those terrorist organisation. Those people who perhaps support hamas might be thinking of it will say , 0h, might be thinking of it will say , oh, well look, theres a bbc. We cant believe a word they say. Its probably sensible for the roger to report the atrocities. Roger thats an extraordinary thing to say that they should be trying to appeal to people who support hamas, people who are supporting hamas have supported the murder of 1200 people, the slaughter of 1200 people. Surely thats bbc is trying thats not who the bbc is trying to appeal to. Its trying to thats not who the bbc is trying to atheal to. Its trying to thats not who the bbc is trying to athe truth its trying to thats not who the bbc is trying to athe truth that rying to thats not who the bbc is trying to athe truth that ry terrible tell the truth that a terrible act terror been committed i and jacob, theyre not trying to appeal. What theyre trying to appeal. What theyre trying to to report and get those to do is to report and get those people who do not wish to believe what hamas to believe what hamas did, to believe what hamas did, to believe what hamas did. But the other thing youve got to remember, of course, in these circumstances is that theres a war going on. Theres a propaganda war going on. And israel, in the past and its armed forces have not told the truth. I dont thats why it was so important when it got it wrong on the hospital as an immediate thought was done thought that it was done by israel. Was a terrible israel. That was a terrible mistake. It wasnt just a minor error in all of your saying they should have waited, they should have been more patient, but they called it as israel straight away. Away. Yes, they should have waited. It was a mistake, but they corrected it as soon as possible. Now have gone on since correcting whereas you seem correcting it. Whereas you seem to that the bbc a position to say that the bbc a position it isnt all right. Well, thank you, roger. Im now joined by john mayer, the former bbc Current Affairs producer and author of multiple books bbc and its licence books on the bbc and its licence fee. If people are offended by the bbcs failure to call terrorism terrorism, theres nothing they can do. Is there . If they want to carry on watching television, they cant cancel their licence fee. Jacob good evening. You need to watch a bit more tv and not appear on it so often. Then youd actually have a more balanced view of everything you know, the bbc is a universal world service. It broadcasts 24 world service. It broadcasts 24 over 7 in 43 languages every day about that war. Whats the story . Is the story about the war or the terrorism . Well , the story is about the well, the story is about the terrorism, but its also about the fact that many people in this country who are compelled to pay a licence fee and are penalised if they refuse to pay it, are finding that the bbc is not calling terrorism terrorism, which is deeply offensive. Jacob jacob, after your programme, sit down and watch television. You know they get good value for it. They get a universal service. Yes, they get radio, tv and everything. But why cant i decide that . Why . Should i have pay why . Why should i have to pay a compulsory fee . Reportedly seeing coming reportedly im seeing coming out of israel is pretty superb. As much as my former boss, roger bolton, said. Ive seen seriously reporting and seriously superb reporting and the bbc is the only broadcaster to have have a reporter in in gaza at the moment. What do itv and the sky called hamas do . They call them terrorists . The bbc is the only one that is compulsorily funded. Thats the difference. Its taxpayer funded. If you dont watch sky or itv, theyre advertising revenues go down. Theyre not forced to be funded by people who are actually quite offended that theyre not calling terrorists terrorists. Jacob what do what do sky and itn well, this is completely irrelevant because theyre not a state broadcaster are funded by taxation. Thats the point is why should people pay for an organisation of the bbc that wont even join the king who has called Hamas Terrorists . There called Hamas Terrorists . There we go. We go. You know, look, this is this is a whole pack of hyaenas like you who go around looking for bbc causes. This is just the latest one of them. You dont like the bbc, you dont like the licence. Well suck it. You know, most people do. I dont. I dont dislike the bbc. I do dislike the licence fee because its a compulsion on people who dont necessarily want to watch it. And find that the bbc is entrench the views and attitudes are not theirs. And this failure , this and this failure, this stubbornness, not to call a massacre of 1200 people terrorism is really extraordinary. Me so why do the palestinians paint the bbc red . Last weekend . Paint the bbc red . Last weekend . Why were the israelis protesting outside the bbc . You know, is the bbc getting it right if both of those people are complaining about them . You know , how are about them . You know, how are you going to finance the bbc . Just you just think it is just you know, just think it is an objective report and as roger said, doing good objective reporting on the wars because it got it wrong when it accused israel of having blown up the hospital, when all the evidence now seems show it was now seems to show that it was hamas rocket that failed and that bbcs immediate that the bbcs Immediate Reaction was to blame israel. Reaction was to blame israel. That was the initial instinct of the bbc. As you said in your introduction, jacob, the bbcs, i think suspended some of the staff in bbc arabic as a result of some of their behaviour. So it does show that the bbc corrects self corrects all the ti me corrects self corrects all the time. So you know, its not time. So you know, its not a monolith, you know, theyre interested in the truth. So why doesnt it correct this and just call what hamas did terrorism . Because that would really settle this and it would really settle this and it would put the bbc in a much stronger position, even though if israel if israel commits a horrific acts in the next few weeks will call the israeli state terrorists as well. Well, state terrorists as well. Well, this is highly speculative. Israel hasnt done that. And israel hasnt done that. And israel hasnt done that. And israel has a right of self defence in International Law. So this is an entirely separate speculation as far as im jacob. Hamas is an elected government in gaza. Government in gaza. This this is really the issue , isnt it, that you and the bbc and i know you no longer work there think that hamas and israel are equivalent . Oh, no , israel are equivalent . Oh, no, no, we dont. I mean, you know, i think what went on on the 7th of october was absolutely discussed in, know, horrific acts, in, you know, horrific acts, horrific acts. Do you think it was terrorism worldwide . A worldwide broadcaster its a worldwide broadcaster and do you think its terrorism now asking you personally just to finish, do you think its terrorism . Oh, no. Oh, no. I think its horrific. I dont think its terrorism. You dont think its terrorism . Thank you very much, john. There you go. The voice no longer for the bbc, but longer working for the bbc, but giving into the giving a good insight into the bbc. Dont forget, let me know your thoughts, mailmogg gbnews. Com. Your thoughts, mailn as|g gbnews. Com. Your thoughts, mailn as|g gbbcns. Com. Your thoughts, mailn as|g gbbc was1m. Your thoughts, mailn as|g g bbc was willing your thoughts, mailn as|g gbbc was willing to next, as the bbc was willing to refer to the brussels attacks at one terror. New revelations one of terror. New revelations suggest terrorist came suggest that the terrorist came across mediterranean in a across the mediterranean in a boat was the country boat and was in the country illegally. Plus, on a slightly illegally. Plus, on a slightly lighter note , should polish lighter note, should polish mannequins be arrested radio. Welcome back. Im still Jacob Rees Mogg, and this is state of the nation. Youve been getting in touch with your thoughts. Fee mus be scrapped if the bbc is no longer representing the people who. And henry says the bbc is independent. You should not be lecturing on what adjective lecturing it on what adjective it hamas. Well, even it applies to hamas. Well, even if independent doesnt if it is independent doesnt mean you cant with it and mean you cant argue with it and complain. That must be right complain. That must be the right of licence payers and anyone of licence fee payers and anyone else and touched on before else. And as i touched on before the brutal in the break, a brutal attack in brussels earlier week saw brussels earlier this week saw two swedish tourists killed and a in his mid 40s named in a man in his mid 40s named in belgian media as abdel salam was shot dead at the scene by Belgium Police , with authorities Belgium Police, with authorities treating the incident as a terror attack, swedens Prosecutors Office said it believes inspired to believes he was inspired to commit killings by the commit the killings by the islamic. You know, the islamic state. You know, the group, does seem to be group, the bbc does seem to be willing refer as willing to refer to as terrorists , but most terrorists, but perhaps most revealingly deceased suspect revealingly the deceased suspect is to be a tunisian is believed to be a tunisian national. Belgium illegally , national. Belgium illegally, after having had his asylum application rejected in 2020. So in a world in which the neoliberal consensus errs on the side of abolishing borders altogether them an altogether, seeing them as an anachronistic institution the anachronistic institution of the past, is clear past, surely this is clear evidence in support of secure borders. Im joined now by my panel constituted by the former brexit party mep, Annunziata Rees mogg , and the broadcaster rees mogg, and the broadcaster and social commentator Narinder Kaur narinder. And social commentator Narinder Kaur narinder. Thank you for kaur narinder. Thank you for joining me. Kaur narinder. Thank you for joining me. Isnt it important that we have secure borders . Because if you have leaky borders, then the risk of terrorists getting in increases . Well of course its so important to have secure borders. No one is, you know, campaigning for open borders. However, really do fear this however, i really do fear this kind language. Jacob that kind of language. Jacob that comes you know, comes from, you know, extreme right wingers that Asylum Seekers , somehow theyre coming seekers, somehow theyre coming and theyre going to cause terrorist attacks. Thats incorrect. But theres been incorrect. But theres been numerous done. So many numerous studies done. So many over the years that actually theres correlation between theres no correlation between in immigration and criminality. There is no correlation in fact, we are more at risk of a terrorist attack by british born extremists, not by Asylum Seekers. This demonisation of Asylum Seekers must stop. And Asylum Seekers must stop. And you know what we are risking upsetting the Islamic Community that lived peacefully in this country. And if you upset them, its just, you know, its like demonising. Its causing islamophobia. Weve had the manston firebomb the attack. Thats not its not nice. No one wants to demonise the Muslim Community and i think everyone recognises is that most people in all communities in this country live here and are law abiding way, but they dont want to make sure that people coming come legally that coming here come legally so that you them so you you can screen them so you can understand who are and have understand who they are and have a as to whether they may a feeling as to whether they may be of committing crimes. Be at risk of committing crimes. And thats why its important to maintain secure borders. Youre still no, but then youre still saying youre pointing at saying that youre pointing at asylum saying Asylum Seekers and saying they could then could be criminal and then theyre terrorists. Thats wrong. Theyve wrong. You cant that theyve come, they they are coming, you know, with desperation and you are labelling them all as terrorists possible. Terrorists no, those who have their claims accepted for asylum are coming here, out of dire need. They need a safe haven. And the british people are generous lot and provide that for those in genuine need. If we take the case of abdul salam last, he was not a genuine case in need. He was refused asylum by the italians in 2012. He was thrown out of sweden in 2014, he was then done again in having returned to italy for being highly likely to fall prey of extremists and become one. He then disappeared for a few years , applied in belgium , and they , applied in belgium, and they refused him. So every single country he moved without borders, without checks around. He disappeared into the illegal communities. But your he did. Foster but your exact extremism that the authorities had thought he would and if we just take we are more at risk of british born extremists. Big picture, he is just one. Youre absolutely right. Its estimated that in right. Its estimated that in belgium there are 150,000. In his situation who have had their claims denied or refused for various reasons in including likelihood to commit terror. Likelihood to commit terror. 150,000. They dont know where they are. They are all living in they are. They are all living in the black economy in the uk. We the black economy in the uk. We dont publish those figures , but dont publish those figures, but it is estimated that its between 18 800,001. 2 million, up to the last time anyone bothered to the last time anyone bothered to 800,001. 2 million. What people who are unknown in this country who have come here, whos fault is that . Theres a process or theyve overstayed their visa and disappeared into our black economy . And how many and how economy . And how many and how many of those are are committing crimes of those . How many of those are committing crimes, knowing crimes because theyre here that theyre here illegally so that theyre not terrorists and not terrorist crimes . We do not know because they are proven by economy without any trace, but theyre not, which is illegal terrorists i if they are committing crimes , theyre not committing terrorist crimes. And you are demonising an entire community entity. I am not demonising your demonising the entire muslim criminalising people who are criminals. This is a very do you know theyre criminals because they are living here illegally . They are living here illegally . Market that is criminal. Market that is criminal. The fact is that we are broken the law. The british. How do you define criminals . The British Public . How do you define criminals . The British Public are more at risk from british born extremists. And thats a fact. And you want pointing at Asylum Seekers , pointing at Asylum Seekers, 40,000 that come over undocu, you know, live in this country. The higher that risk becomes. And they also cause others to become more extremist in themselves. We dont know who themselves. We dont know who these people are, where theyre from or why theyre whose fault is that . They come over here, when they come over here, they deport. When they come over here, the� they deport. When they come over here, the� they straight . When they come over here, the� they straight away. They straight away. They straight away. Two years, two years. They are waiting to be processed out. And that time, they actually and in that time, they actually 9 and in that time, they actually go, they disappear, but they but you that they are you cant say that they are terrorists of International Laws, that we are extremely good at following. But that allow appeal after appeal on the most ridiculous causes. You dont have any you dont have any right to having a family life with his cat. Have any right to having a family life with his cat. You dont have any facts at all that they are here to cause terrorism. I think its really dangerous. I think were getting some degree of agreement because you seem to be saying that should seem to be saying that we should have control of our have proper control of our borders they wouldnt have proper control of our b0|here they wouldnt have proper control of our b0|here legally. They wouldnt be here legally. What im saying is that no, what im saying is that we need secure control of our we do need secure control of our borders. Of course do. Borders. Of course we do. However, when people are coming borders. Of course we do. Howmerewhen people are coming borders. Of course we do. Howmere claiming ple are coming borders. Of course we do. Howmere claiming refuge coming borders. Of course we do. Howmere claiming refuge and|ing over here claiming refuge and theyre Asylum Seekers, these are refugees. Are not refugees. How do you know . Because how do if youre a genuine do you know if youre a genuine refugee . Do you know a criminal . You are treating them. You are treating them. They are coming here in desperation and youve got no compassion in your heart idea of that. Youve got they havent caused any terrorism. Havent caused any terrorism. You are sitting there. They know that. But theres a 90 success rate of applications for asylum plus from people from syria and afghanistan. Afghanistan. So if they are genuine refugees, chance refugees, their chance of getting extremely high. Yes. Yes. So they could do it legally. So i think youre Lyndon Wissart are broadly agreeing that we need proper control of our borders and need too. Borders and we need them too. But dont to be but we dont need to be demonising saying theyre terrorists. I think thats a scandalous thing to its absolutely thing to say. Its absolutely scandalous saying that all of them are terrorists. That would absurd third that would be an absurd third thing claim. But of the lets thing to claim. But of the lets average out eight 101. 2 of the 1 million up to 2017. And we know its grown since then. 52 from asia. So theyre not what does asia. So theyre not what does that mean . Theyre not Asylum Seekers. I think speakers but no, but does it mean theyre terrorists . No , no, no, it doesnt. It doesnt. The Asylum Seekers. The Asylum Seekers. Ive allowed you the last word. Thank you very much for my panel word. Thank you very much for my panel. Coming up next, well be discussing the governments plan to ban gay and to introduce a ban on gay and trans conversion therapy with veteran campaigner veteran lgbt rights campaigner peter tatchell. Plus is it time to restore mod of mendip to restore mod king of mendip back into the historic record news radio. Welcome back. Our man, Jacob Rees Mogg , and youve been rees mogg, and youve been getting in touch with your thoughts. Sarah says, i like sarahs point. Youre absolutely right. Illegal right. If youre an illegal refugee, then youve already broken. Brian i also broken the law. Brian i also like what brian has to say. Jacob, thank you so much for putting in place. Putting the bbc in its place. You restored my faith in you have restored my faith in the and stew again. Stew is the uk and stew again. Stew is marvellous. The excellent selection mugs selection of male mugs this evening. Jacob. Evening. Its simple, jacob. Youre absolutely spot on. We need tougher security at borders. So thank you. You are allowed disagree me in allowed to disagree with me in male though obviously male moggs, though obviously id prefer it if agree. Id prefer it if you agree. Following a backlash from conservative ministers, following a backlash from consesunakl ministers, following a backlash from consesunak has ministers, following a backlash from consesunak has decidedinisters, following a backlash from consesunak has decided to iters, rishi sunak has decided to continue with his to ban continue with his plans to ban both gay and trans conversion therapy. The Prime Minister will include in the include a draft bill in the kings which will make include a draft bill in the ki ajs which will make include a draft bill in the kia criminal which will make include a draft bill in the kia criminal offence will make include a draft bill in the ki a criminal offence toill make include a draft bill in the ki a criminal offence to attempt it a criminal offence to attempt to someones sexuality to change someones sexuality and ideology in england and gender ideology in england and gender ideology in england and , campaigners have and wales, campaigners have repeatedly called for conversion therapy to be banned , saying it therapy to be banned, saying it has lives with attempts has ruined lives with attempts to lgbt people of being to cure lgbt people of being themselves. However, there are themselves. However, there are serious questions about whether this would impede the ability of practitioners to treat those suffering with gender dysphoria and the unclear definition of conversion therapy. Well, im conversion therapy. Well, im now joined by veteran lgbt rights campaigner and one of the bravest campaigners for Political Rights in the country, peter tatchell. Peter, thank you for coming in. The difficulty with this and youve always defended free speech as well, is how do you draw the dividing line between protecting free speech but protecting people to lead the lives they want without undue interference . Yes. Undue interference . Yes. Well, we dont know the precise wording of the legislation , but the report is legislation, but the report is coming out. Is that. Well only criminalise coerce massive conversion practises in other words, abusive , threatening, words, abusive, threatening, intimidating and physically violent. But there are certainly physically violent ones are already illegal. So the question is , what is so the question is, what is it actually doing or is itjust it actually doing or is it just one of these token bills that repeats whats already in law, which is something that governments do do periodically . Well , when youre being held well, when youre being held and shouted at abused and its illegal, but thats illegal already. Its not technically already. Its not technically illegal. Its a grey area. Its a grey area. And thats why all the worlds leading professional bodies, medicine , psychiatry and bodies, medicine, psychiatry and counselling say that these practises are abusive, theyre harmful and theyre very damaging. Damaging. If youre being held and shouted out that is illegal, thatis shouted out that is illegal, that is an assault to hold somebody that the laws already already there, it becomes more of a question of what is a father allowed to say to his child if that child , possibly as child if that child, possibly as a young teenager , expresses a a young teenager, expresses a view of wanting to change gender and create that sort of uncertainty, i think is very difficult . Well first of all, let me say that people are being held abuse used that is already illegal. And but its not not enforced. It happens. It is not enforced. Okay. But it happens in churches and places of worship all across the country. But shoplifting isnt being enforced either. The fact that were not enforcing the law doesnt mean you need new laws. It means you need to enforce the laws exist. And i wouldnt laws that exist. And i wouldnt disagree with on that at disagree with you on that at all, if people are being all, that if people are being coerced, of course there are laws to that and they laws to cover that and they should be enforced. But its just a specific law just why you need a specific law that seems to be from what ones heanng go that seems to be from what ones hearing go than that hearing to go further than that to conversations , to make conversations, potentially a grey area. And that very difficult. That becomes very difficult. That will definitely not happen. Theres absolutely no doubt anybody wants. No one doubt that anybody wants. No one wants to prevent parents or teachers speaking to young people about Sexual Orientation or gender identity issues that will not be covered by the law. No shadow of doubt whatsoever. But what also will not be covered is the use of emotional and psychological pressure. So if youre in a church or mosque setting or if youre in a therapists chair and youre being told that you are sick, that you need curing, that you have to change, its not physical violence, but its a form of emotional , moral and form of emotional, moral and psychological pressure that is being used and does cause people great distress. What about the question of sin . Is the Catholic Church allowed to teach that certain sexual activities are sinful . Indeed, all sexual relations outside marriage are sinful . Yes that is not going to be covered by the law as only very specific concrete attempts. If the priest says that from the pulpit , the priest says that from the pulpit, isnt that a the priest says that from the pulpit , isnt that a coercive . Pulpit, isnt that a coercive . Because its attempting to persuade people to follow the teaching of the church and that is clearly trying to influence peoples behaviour . Yeah, but the law would only apply to specific individuals. So if someone makes a generic statement that homosexuality is wrong and people should repent, that will not be covered by the law, it will only be if they take someone who is gay and sit them down and seek to pressure or persuade. Or persuade. If somebody goes to confession and confesses to a sexual sin , is the priest sexual sin, is the priest allowed to say that that is a sin and that they should sin no more when they leave in the standard words of the of forgiveness that the priest reads out because they are telling somebody not to repeat what they have repeated, that will be covered and its will not be covered and its attempts to change someones Sexual Orientation. Sexual orientation. And the change has to be specific. It has to be concrete. Specific. It has to be concrete. It has to show that it is putting that person in undue pressure and circumstance that makes them feel distressed and anxious. And indeed , it may anxious. And indeed, it may provoke real psychological harm because some people whove been through these practises the mild ones that were just talking about , they have ended up with about, they have ended up with very severe depression and some have attempted self harm. Have attempted self harm. But this goes back to the conversations that may be held within. Are you allowed within families. Are you allowed to say to child that no , im to say to a child that no, im not going to call you by another name, im going to carry on calling you by the name that i called you when you were born. Is that coercive . But that is not about changing someones Sexual Orientation. Separate issue. But the gender orientation is going to included this. Going to be included in this. Yes. Gender orientation. Will Sexual Orientation and gender identity will be included , but identity will be included, but it wont cover things like pronouns or the expression of opinions, but only over only cover attempts to change someone by using psychological or emotional pressure. Emotional pressure. And worse, isnt not going along with somebody. An effort to change them because youre not accepting what they have chosen to do. And that therefore chosen to do. And that therefore this makes it very difficult for families to have an open conversation because they will be worried about crossing this boundary when there are quite clear laws on the abusive coercion already. That would be coercion already. That would be my concern that i dont want people to be bullied or treated badly. I want people to be free badly. I want people to be free to live the lives they choose to lead. But i also think that lead. But i also think that freedom of speech is very important and uncertain. Children in need to be protected and need to be able to have an open conversation with their parents or indeed with their priest, with their pastor. Yes, absolutely. Of course, there are already more than 25 countries or states countries or regions or states within countries that have banned therapy , and banned conversion therapy, and none of them have had any of these problems because they give freedom of speech protections. Freedom of speech protections. So i think that this is an anxiety that is not founded. In fact, and i do not believe we will go down that so weve will go down that road. So weve got australian state of got the australian state of victoria, has an excellent victoria, which has an excellent model that works well. We could adapt without any fear that adapt that without any fear that parents intimidated or parents would be intimidated or threatened by the law. All right. Well, thank you very i think we very much, peter. I think we always most civilised always have the most civilised conversation, though we probably disagree thank disagree quite a lot. Thank you for up next, for coming in. Coming up next, is time to pick the triple is it time to pick the triple lock . Plus, ill revealing lock . Plus, ill be revealing mog, mendips routes welcome back. I continue to identify as Jacob Rees Mogg and youve been getting in touch with your mail logs. Now, this ones actually from yesterday because we were discussing obscure acts and how you werent allowed to behave suspiciously with salman and algernon. Are sentin with salman and algernon. Are sent in a mail mog saying the salman act is very important. When absolutely can be prosecuted for handling a salman suspiciously. That doesnt mean handung suspiciously. That doesnt mean handling in a way that might imply some assault on imply some sort of assault on the fishs person, so speak. The fishs person, so to speak. Its to enable the authorities to prosecute poachers and hotels. Cetera. Who buy fish hotels. Et cetera. Who buy fish which have been poached, i imagine there will have been lots of prosecutions for handung lots of prosecutions for handling suspiciously in handling salman suspiciously in recent years. What were recent years. So what were really concerned about is smoked poached salmon. If its smoked, its probably its fine and probably delicious. Algernon, delicious. Anyway, algernon, thank very much. Now to a thank you very much. Now to a political storm on the scale of babette could be brewing, as downing street has hinted at its intention to shift the forthcoming april increase to the state pension , known as wage the state pension, known as Wage Inflation is the highest of the three factors determining the pension increase. Triple pension increase. The triple lock at the government has lock at 8. 5. The government has suggested it could revert from the total measurement, which the total pay measurement, which included bonuses, which skews the number to ordinary pay, which is at 7. 9. This is forecast to save taxpayer thats you a total of £900 million, which at a time of huge debt Interest Payments and the greater tax burden since the Second World War may be desirable , but it could be desirable, but it could be politically quite risky. Well, im joined now by my Brilliant Panel im joined now by my Brilliant Panel, the former brexit party mep and my sister and lisa hartle rees mogg and the broadcaster and social commentator Narinder Kaur leo nunziata. If you were thinking nunziata. If you were thinking of offending the biggest tory voting segment of society, would you do that six months before an election . Election . Oddly enough, no. And in fact, i think its wrong on all sorts of levels. Its political suicide. Its political suicide. Thats unquestionably true that it is the Biggest Group of supporters for the conservative party. And youd be cutting their expected income. But but also, they are people who have paid in all their lives with an expectation that they can live on it at the end of the day. But its not a savings account. Its sort of savings account. Its sort of savings account. Well, its a scheme which its not a savings account. And actually, as a labour supporter , its probably labour supporter, its probably something that i would probably now vote for because that now vote tory for because that triple pension is not triple lock pension is not sustainable. We cant afford it sustainable. We cant afford it as a country. We cant keep as a country. We cant keep paying as a country. We cant keep paying out to elderly. The paying out to elderly. The Younger Generation are not being looked after. These people have the burden is not on them. Having paid in every single year of their work. Nothing to guarantee they have. Just as we are guaranteed that will have free health that we will have Free Health Care at the point of need, people have been guaranteed they will have a pension when they retire state and that is retire by the state and that is why. Why should they . Their subs and people and most people, most people think that that money has been put aside side as they have worked. Thats very naive. Unfortunately, its been funding other spending and that. But why should benefit be increased . More younger workers and why should they . Why should the Younger Generation keep having to suffer . Surely thats the point. Nunziata the Younger Generation, they shouldnt have. They cant get they can. Get mortgages if they can. Theyre higher interest rates. Theyve student theyve got Student Loans gone their have only gone up, their wages have only just begun to catch up with inflation and the retired have been step of the way. Is fair on Younger Voters . The retired population have only been protected in recent years because they were on such a pittance a few years ago that it needed to be makes up for what about what about what about pensioners who have got who should save, whove got private pensions. So it goes to all of them. And theyve got youve got private pensions, the houses are paid off. Theyve got a lot of money. All it. Money. They dont all need it. They a triple they dont all need a triple lock pension. And if they if theyre benefited, if theyre benefit. If you let me finish please. They if their benefit please. If they if their benefit has been raised, if it needs to be raised, should all other be raised, so should all other benefits. So why are pensioners always been there taking up the whole nhs as they we look whole nhs as well. They we look after our pensioners, we really do, but we cant sustain, we cannot country , we the cannot as a country, we the economy cannot sustain. I think economy cannot sustain. I think this rise in inflation measures that should be taken that are needed because the bill is huge. I think paying back a decent level is an obligation because people have paid in. However, i think age does have to increase that. Think age does have to increase that. When pensions were first that. When pensions were first created, people were expected to survive for 3 to 5 years after retirement and that is now 20 years. So keep the very different keep the triple lock , different keep the triple lock, but raise the pension age. Would that be a fair way of doing it . No, i dont think we should. The triple lock is not sustainable. It should never have should never have happened. It should never have happened. It should never have promised. I dont have been promised. I dont think no. I really i think so. No. I really dont. I think so. No. I really dont. I think we to encourage think we need to encourage private pensions, as we really do, fair on the do, because its not fair on the Younger Generation. They are do, because its not fair on the young going eration. They are do, because its not fair on the young going to |tion. They are do, because its not fair on the young going to ben. They are do, because its not fair on the young going to be ableey are do, because its not fair on the young going to be able to are do, because its not fair on the young going to be able to you never going to be able to you know, pensioners, they know, they the pensioners, they own houses. The younger own their houses. The Younger Generation, impossible own their houses. The younger gerthem in, impossible own their houses. The younger gerthem to impossible own their houses. The younger gerthem to even impossible own their houses. The younger gerthem to even get possible own their houses. The younger gerthem to even get onisible own their houses. The younger gerthem to even get on thee for them to even get on the housing lots dont. Lots dont either. However, we cant sustain going sustain the triple. Whos going to this . The taxpayer. To pay for this . The taxpayer. We paying for everything. We we are paying for everything. We cant we are paying for everything. We canwho paid it before them, but who paid it before them, but we to long retired it we are having to long retired it for the country to sustain and were not having enough children to into this ponzi to keep paying into this ponzi scheme. Was bad designed scheme. It was a bad designed system in the first place because you are constantly relying on new money to come in. However ever there are guarantees that been made guarantees that have been made and dont think the government and i dont think the government should break this fundamental. Should break this fundamental. They dont have a i think they dont have a choice. And i think that time is choice. And i think that time is changing. We dont know. Its unpredictable and should unpredictable and they should not that. And not have depended on that. And actually, vote for tory. Actually, i would vote for tory. Tory, if they dont if they break triple, honestly, would. Well, thats quite thats quite a promise. Have quite a promise. Well have to get back on after the next get you back on after the next election when you have a tory manifesto. But it was a manifesto. But it was a manifesto the manifesto commitment. Thats the sort theyve broken a lot of well theyve broken a lot of manifesto commitments. Theyve broken why break broken a lot. So why not break this one . Ive let you have the last word twice. Taking a look away anyway, taking a look away from criminal justice from our own criminal justice problems posed by our problems to one posed by our poush problems to one posed by our polish has polish neighbours, a man has been arrested posing as been arrested after posing as a mannequin a warsaw shop mannequin in a warsaw shop window to steal jewellery. The window to steal jewellery. The 22 year old man was holding a shopping bag and posing as a mannequin in a shop window until he felt was safe to continue he felt it was safe to continue with his burglary escapades. Warsaw the staff and Warsaw Police said the staff and shoppers failed to notice anything untoward by this particular mannequin, but he has subsequently charged with subsequently been charged with burglary now burglary and theft and now faces up ten in prison. Up to ten years in prison. Perhaps the polish police should be the metropolitan be following the metropolitan polices plan facial polices plan to use facial recognition tackle recognition to tackle shoplifting , providing it would shoplifting, providing it would work on a mannequin. Well its quite clever, isnt it . I mean, one disapproves of crime and burglaries , a terrible crime, burglaries, a terrible crime, and shoplifting particularly , and shoplifting particularly, but one always has a sneaking suspicion for those seeking respect , but suspicion for those seeking respect, but admiration for those criminals who are really clever. The hustle, the hustler to use there, that is. Its just strange. Strange. I absolutely i do admire his his chutzpah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For doing this. Perhaps he for doing this. Perhaps he should have looked a little more like, you know, but he didnt. I think he looks dreadful. Think he looks dreadful. I mean, he even looks like a great disguise there. Im surprised they didnt nofice im surprised they didnt notice that he had a head. Unlike the other mannequins in the picture. But they dont have heads. Oh but but actually , the but but actually, the shoplifting problem is the big one, isnt it . And weve had the figures today that shoplifting has gone up today that shoplifting has gone p by today that shoplifting has gone up by 25, that a very small number, only 10 lead to any arrest or any action on that. This is thought of as low level criminality, but actually it has a real effect on people. A real effect on people. Massive. And i only discovered today that it was theresa may who introduced a £70 fine for shoplifting under £200. Well, theres a lot of small shop owners that it doesnt take many 200 or £199 shop lifting inaya incidents to really hurt and potentially make their businesses go under. I think weve got to take it seriously. Its the broken windows argument that you knock the Little Things on the head and the bigger things. Things. I think people are going through dire times and weve got a cost of living crisis and people are stealing because theyre struggling theyre theyre struggling and theyre poon theyre struggling and theyre poor. Really im not that these are well, im not that these are not people stealing because they are hungry or in dire need. It is who are is gangs of people who are raiding shops for large quantities of things to im talking about smaller shops and go and stealing some. We were talking yesterday about the day before about a man who stole £500 worth of steaks. Thats not because hes hungry. Thats not because hes hungry. Thats because hes going to try and sell them 20 bottles of prosecco. Yes. Yes. And he really needed those. Hes got a problem well hes got a problem that. Well but where does this come in with facial recognition . Recognition . But where does this come in with fanthisecognition . Recognition . But where does this come in with fanthis whatlition . Recognition . But where does this come in with fanthis what were recognition . Is this what were. Thats right. Thats right. And can identify people. Its dangerous. Its very dangerous. Now, the metropolitan police very police are using a very dangerous i think it im always infringes on our cards. Im not a big fan of a surveillance state at all. Well, i dont want our government to be a total big brother. But when you look at the statistics that the shops , the 12 shops involved the shops, the 12 shops involved in this project are provided, 300, just over 304, i think images. To the police. Images. To the police. But those images could be gender and racial bias of people who they had seen shoplift , who they had seen shoplift, eating and not being able to identify. Thats dangerous. Thats dangerous. Thats dangerous of them were already on Police Database already on the Police Database for other crimes. And i think this goes back to the broken windows thing that shoplifting looks minor, but is often deeply connected. We cant use facial recognition. It infringes our privacy it infringes on our privacy and it doesnt have our consent. And actually it is it has rac. And actually it is it has rac. If youre a thief, dont you just deserve to get what if youre not a thief . And actually that racial recognition algorithm because the recognition, the facial recognition, black and brown people, black and brown people, it doesnt it wont pick people up. It wont it will pick people up. It doesnt pick up black and brown people. System is people. The whole the system is flawed. Is flawed. Flawed. The system is flawed. New system. Its flawed that it doesnt see colour. It doesnt see hair colour, it doesnt see its skin colour. Its the biometrics of the black and brown people, black and brown people know youve got that incorrect. That incorrect. A black and brown people are hundred times more likely, a hundred times more likely, a hundred times more likely. Well have to come back to the Technical Specifications of facial recognition. Facial recognition. But finally, some hot off the press news from the First Century bc in pre roman, england , a king has been added to the historical record after a coin with his name on it. Senators doesnt sound particularly engush doesnt sound particularly english name anyway. Senators has been unearthed in a hampshire field , and while as an hampshire field, and while as an erdos with whom i think i may have been at school, is welcome in our historic record, we ought also to think about mug king of mendip, my famous forebear and the most distinguished contemporary of Saint Patrick. Anyway, thats all from me , anyway, thats all from me, reminiscing about Saint Patrick and king of mendip. But weve got another patrick coming up. Also pretty saintly Saint Patrick christys will you be discussing mug king of mendip . I not because not i will not because not because i dont find it interesting. Just because ive got other stuff jacobs stuff got other stuff on jacobs stuff like stop oil getting in like Just Stop Oil getting in the way of those people getting on the bibby stockholm barge. Really laughable scenes. Ive got of stop got a member of Just Stop Oil on. Im going to be talking on. Im also going to be talking as about a whole host of as well about a whole host of different issues, such as the anti semitic chants heard at the pro palestine protest. The artist, the lovely artists that were decided to come out in favour of palestine, not condemning hamas and i go to denmark all the way to denmark to talk about how Palestinian Refugees have failed to integrate over there. Some shocking stats and exclusive that farage brought us and that nigel farage brought us and find as well why one bra find out as well why one bra company went bust as they Company Nearly went bust as they decided to drop woke advertising all to play for. Oh, that sounds extremely interesting as always. Coming after the thats coming up after the weather. Im going to back on weather. Im going to be back on monday 8 00. Im heading down monday at 8 00. Im heading down to somerset shortly. Im Jacob Rees Mogg. This been stated rees mogg. This has been stated nafion rees mogg. This has been stated nation think even nation and i dont think even i can that the sun will be can say that the sun will be shining in somerset tomorrow. I think me under think you might have me under the description act. The trade description act. Hello. Very good evening. Im alex burke and heres your latest gb news weather update. Storm babet is going to bring a lot of rain and some very windy weather across parts, weather across many parts, particularly northeast particularly the northeast through 24 hours. We through the next 24 hours. We are sandwiched between a blocking high towards the northeast and low pressure northeast of us and low pressure towards southwest. But towards the southwest. But because of that high, this frontal the north frontal system in the north isnt going anywhere particularly fast. Thats why the totals are going to the rainfall totals are going to continue build across continue to build up across eastern scotland in particular as we go through the next day or so. High rainfall totals so. Very high rainfall totals could be in excess of 200mm. For some parts. It is going to be a mild night with lots wet and mild night with lots of wet and windy weather around temperatures not dropping much and wind coming in from and gusts of wind coming in from the east of around 60, 70mph for some eastern coastal parts. Friday then is going to be a wet picture for many of us. Heavy rain across Northern Ireland into Northern England and rain continuing across eastern parts of scotland, is why some of scotland, which is why some severe is quite severe disruption is quite likely towards southwest, likely towards the southwest, though a dry picture with a scattering showers. And here scattering of showers. And here temperatures degrees temperatures are a few degrees above average for the time of yeah above average for the time of year. Elsewhere feeling cooler with and rain , it with the wind and the rain, it is going to be another wet day for eastern North Eastern for many eastern North Eastern areas saturday. Rain not areas on saturday. The rain not quite heavy as as go quite as heavy as as we go through friday, but likely to cause further issues cause some further issues because the heavy that because of the heavy rain that its coming the back of. Its coming on the back of. Othennise, its drier picture othennise, its a drier picture for many parts of england and wales a scattering wales with a scattering of showers. Sunday looks like a quieter day with more showers possible week whos. Hi there. Good evening to you. Im Aaron Armstrong in the newsroom. The Prime Minister has urged saudi arabia to use its influence to achieve stability influence to achieve stability in the middle east. The Prime Minister and Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman have agreed to together to avoid to Work Together to avoid further escalation of the israel Hamas Conflict. It was israel Hamas Conflict. It was dunng israel Hamas Conflict. It was during a meeting in riyadh. The Prime Minister will meet other arab leaders as part of a two day to capitals in the day trip to capitals in the region. In jerusalem earlier, the Prime Minister vowed to stand in solidarity with israel. Stand in solidarity with israel. In a meeting with his counterpart, Benjamin Netanyahu. The israeli leader thanked rishi sunak, calling his visit a strong statement of support in a time of darkness. Rishi sunak, time of darkness. Rishi sunak, though, israel must though, stressed israel must adhere International Law in adhere to International Law in gaza and that the conflict must not spread elsewhere. Not spread elsewhere. Good, productive conversations with both Prime Minister netanyahu and the israeli president herzog. Among israeli president herzog. Among other things, we discussed the importance of this conflict not escalating regionally and the importance of getting humanitarian aid into gaza to help people who need it. I also had the opportunity to meet families of british nationals who have been taken hostage. We are doing absolutely everything we can to get them home. Nine britons