The city lit up by the generators that have been swinging into action since the power station stopped working hours ago. Those generators were thought to be the only source of electricity and this afternoon, the un chief, antonio guterres, has been addressing this crisis, saying crucial life saving supplies, including food and water, must be allowed into the strip. Hes calling for humanity , an aid corridor into gaza. He , an aid corridor into gaza. He also called for the release of all hostages and a de escalation of the violence. Of the violence. As i am concerned about the recent exchange of fire along the blue line and recent reported attacks from southern lebanon. I appeal to all parties and those who have an influence over those parties to avoid any further escalation and spill over. I further escalation and spill over. I call for the immediate over. I call for the Immediate Release of all israeli hostages held in gaza. Civilians must be held in gaza. Civilians must be protected at all times. Protected at all times. International humanitarian law must be respected and upheld as well. His majesty, the king says hes appalled by the acts of terrorism and the prince and princess of wales have condemned the horrors inflicted by Hamas Terrorists. Gb news royal correspondent Cameron Walker has more from Buckingham Palace. Well, these are incredibly strong words from a spokesperson for his majesty the king this afternoon , condemning what they afternoon, condemning what they describe as the barbaric acts of terrorism in israel. A terrorism in israel. A Buckingham Palace spokesperson says that this is a situation, his majesty is extremely concerned about , his majesty is extremely concerned about, adding that he has asked to be kept actively updated his thoughts and prayers are with all those suffering , are with all those suffering, particularly those who have lost loved ones , but also those loved ones, but also those actively involved as we speak. I think its pretty telling that the kings spokesperson has used quite such strong language. It is incredibly rare that a spokesperson or indeed the king himself would use language such as this, which perhaps is an indication, as to the strong emotions the king is feeling at this time. As soon as we get an official statement, if at all, from Buckingham Palace will bnng from Buckingham Palace will bring straight you. Bring that straight to you. Well, in other news today, a dorset councillor has lost a high court fight with the home secretary over the housing of Asylum Seekers on the bibby stockholm barge. Current sited in portland. Mayor carolyn parks wanted to challenge the lawfulness of the use of the barge in portland. Port saying the home office needed planning permission to site it and use it in that location. The vessel has been empty since legionella bacteria were detected on board back in august, but the home office now says the barge is safe for Asylum Seekers to return. The Shadow Health secretary has said a Labour Government would turn the nhs on its head if it got into power. Its head if it got into power. Speaking on the last day of the conference in liverpool, wes streeting argued that reform is more important than pouring money into a Health System that isnt working. He warned that the nhs faces bankruptcy unless its overhauled and he set out plans to shift its focus from hospitals to providing more care in the community. A Labour Government will take immediate action to cut waiting lists. We will provide an extra £1. 1 billion to help the nhs beat the backlog with extra clinics, the evenings and weekends providing 2 million more appointments each year. Faster treatment for patients, extra pay for staff. The first steps to cut the waiting list and beat the tory backlog. And beat the tory backlog. This is gb news across the uk on tv in your car, on Digital Radio and on your Smart Speaker by saying play gb news. This is britains news channel. Britains news channel. Good evening, welcome to dewbs co its me, bev turner. Normally on in the morning but keeping the seat warm for michelle this week while she on houday michelle this week while she on holiday so my panel this evening im delighted to actually im delighted to say actually columnist on columnist for the mail on sunday, hitchens with sunday, Peter Hitchens is with us co founder of novara us and co founder of novara media. Aaron bastani, i want to hear you as well. So let us hear from you as well. So let us know your thoughts, gbviews gbnews. Com on twitter gbviews gbnews. Com or on twitter at gb news. So theres only one story that we can start with as the israeli hamas war enters its fifth day, more bombs , more fifth day, more bombs, more destruction, more lives lost. Israel has said that it will escalate its response with a ground offensive. What do you ground offensive. What do you make , gentlemen, of the make, gentlemen, of the situation . Weve actually just been watching charlie peters, our gb News Reporter who is there in tel aviv with a lot of there in tel aviv with a lot of the press. And we now hearing that theres been invasion from hezbollah , from the lebanon side hezbollah, from the lebanon side. Peter, just go. Where are we. Peter, just go. Where are we now in this situation . Well, a lot of these things are actually quite normal in israel. The launching of rockets against israeli cities is not particularly uncommon. Most of particularly uncommon. Most of them are intercepted, but its something under which most israelis live a lot of the time. And the nearer they are to gaza, the more likely this is to happen, though hezbollah is also quite launching quite capable of launching rockets northern border rockets from the northern border as well. The danger from hezbollah is well known. They have in the past mounted very effective and extremely damaging offensives in the north. Its the best armed non state state probably in the world and extremely proficient, well equipped , army financed and equipped, army financed and armed by iran. And a constant danger on israels northern border. So these are this is this is life in that extremely small country. It doesnt begin small country. It doesnt begin to compare in political and diplomatic significance. And indeedin diplomatic significance. And indeed in other significance with the horrors which weve seen in the surprise attack from gaza into into southern israel thatis gaza into into southern israel that is unprecedented. That is something which has been a nightmare for israelis for a very long time. And it has huge political implications. The political implications. The largest one of which is this for, i think now more than 20 years. The absolutely totally fashionable and universal line of international diplomacy, politics and media wise, acas has been that what israel needs is a two state solution in that it abandons any further control over the west bank of the jordan and hands that over to an independent state and withdraws entirely from that. So what that would mean is that israel would have right next to jerusalem its historic capital, right next to huge, densely populated areas, a state from which an attack such as the one that has come out of gaza could emerge at any time. And i think you can see from that just how crazy the idea of a two state solution has been. All this time. Its as long as there is no willingness among there is no willingness among the leadership of the major movements in the arab to world accept the existence of israel as a permanent, then danger as a permanent, then the danger of following such a procedure is just colossal. I dont see why just colossal. I dont see why people dont admit that theyve made a terrible mistake. Thats people dont admit that theyve madeweveible mistake. Thats people dont admit that theyve madeweve learnt istake. Thats people dont admit that theyve madeweve learnt from 5. Thats people dont admit that theyve madeweve learnt from this. |ts what weve learnt from this. Apart from the incredible violence , cruelty and violence, cruelty and callousness which which the Hamas Terrorists use a word i dont hesitate to use in this case, which the Hamas Terrorists have employed, not against, not against the israeli army , but against the israeli army, but against the israeli army, but against children and women and civilians. Having against children and women and civilians. Having a party, thats whom they attacked and they attack them without mercy. And in ways which are too disgusting in many ways to relate. And if you look at the reports and the pictures of this, sometimes you just have to turn nobody can pretend. Turn away. Nobody can pretend. And Collateral Damage and this was Collateral Damage in military operation. And yet in a military operation. And yet there are people in western politics who make excuses for it. One in particular, a certain rivkah brown, who declared that today should be a day of celebration for supporters of democracy and human rights worldwide died as gazans break out of their open air prison and hamas fighters cross into their colonisers territory , she said colonisers territory, she said the struggle for freedom is rarely bloodless and we shouldnt apologise for it. I believe that aaron is an associate of rivkah brown. I may have been mistaken. Im not familiar with. Im not familiar with. We might want to Say Something about it. Well, im not the name. Not familiar with the name. Brown. I cant deny im happy brown. I cant deny that. So go on. Aaron, who is rivkah brown and why is it what they so i would say and of they say . So i would say and of course, might this is course, you might think this is being i would say being evasive, but i would say that fundamental story that the fundamental story is whats going on in israel palestine, whats israel palestine, not whats going here. Israel palestine, not whats goiiim here. Israel palestine, not whats goiiim happy. Israel palestine, not whats goiiim happy to talk about that. Im happy to talk about that. However, she since apologised for it was improper. For that tweet, it was improper. In regards your initial in regards to your initial question gaza strip question on about the gaza strip and a potential land invasion in whats obviously really whats obviously changed really since really over the last since 2008, really over the last decade is we have seen a massive inflation in the powers of people like the houthis in yemen, hezbollah , shia militias yemen, hezbollah, shia militias in iraq are much stronger than they used to be. Youve got a protest in baghdad, i think in two days called by Muqtada Al Sadr , a very powerful shia al sadr, a very powerful shia cleric. You have hamas and cleric. You have hamas and hezbollah on the same side here. They werent on the same side in the syrian civil war. So i think, look, the idf are very clever people. The Israeli Government are very smart people. Think a ground people. I think a Ground Invasion of gaza any time soon would be very dangerous for them, and not just because of what other people might do elsewhere, but if you look at some of the videos and some of the footage from gaza, it looks like and anybody like stalingrad. And anybody whos military whos familiar with military theory, snipers theory, that is a snipers paradise. Suspect israel paradise. So i suspect israel wont go in there at least for a few more weeks. And like i said, thats for two reasons real perils for their own military. And also they probably want to keep an eye on whats going on elsewhere. Yes. But a lot of what happens in that part of the world is largely dependent on the support which the actors in that of world, whether that part of the world, whether it the Israeli Government on it be the Israeli Government on one in the west one side or fatah in the west bank hamas in gaza. The bank or hamas in gaza. The support and the endorsement which they get in many cases from politicians , those from western politicians, those western activists , western western activists, western journalists. Thats why i raised this question of what what rivka brown said. There are people in the west who are prepared to endorse this sort of action. I think thats shocking. Obviously, i believe. What do obviously, i believe. What do you what do you in free speech . I dont think if shes apologised, shes apologised. But the truth is, she said it and you were a christian man, peter. Tell me what you want. If shes apologised. I understand shes apologised. I understand she apologised. But what is she apologised for exactly . Is apologised for exactly . Is she apologised for exactly . Is she apologised for she or she for thinking it or she or she apologised saying it apologised for saying it unwisely an occasion she unwisely on an occasion when she shouldnt such a fool shouldnt have made such a fool of herself in public. Which is it . Many, many kinds it . There are many, many kinds of theres the of apologies. Theres the apology something and apology for something and theres apology which theres the apology which begins. If what does begins. Im sorry if what does she mean . Did she . Did she mean. I wish i she mean . Did she . Did she mean. Iwish i did she mean . Did she . Did she mean. I wish i did she mean i wish i hadnt thought it. Ive changed my you know i now i my mind. Can you know i now i think that his who who this person is so shes journalist person is so shes a journalist that work with. That you work with. Work for navarro media . Shes an editor, yes. Shes an editor, yes. Okay. Did she say that on a navarro media . No she on twitter. So no, she said on twitter. So we dont have a social media policy with regards to you know, its a bit similar to if a gb news says something news person says something on their twitter so of their own twitter feed. So of course, people are very their own twitter feed. So of coursto people are very their own twitter feed. So of coursto say people are very their own twitter feed. So of coursto say navarro are very their own twitter feed. So of coursto say navarro ise very their own twitter feed. So of coursto say navarro is partly right to say navarro is partly responsible this. But of responsible for this. But of course, were not. You know, we people say things people are allowed to say things on own time. Shes since on their own time. Shes since apologised for it because its improper. Spoken to improper. And ive spoken to rivka she doesnt rivka about it. She she doesnt think know, and think that, you know, and i think that, you know, and i think think she saw the think i think she saw the bulldozer going for border bulldozer going for the border post between and israel. Post between gaza and israel. And i thought, i think and i thought, you know, i think and also jewish i should i and shes also jewish i should i should and was as happy should add and she was as happy to that. And think she to see that. And i think she would still say she was happy to see the bulldozing of the fence. And went completely and she went completely overboard and she said something which regrets. And overboard and she said something whi doesnt regrets. And overboard and she said something whi doesnt actuallyets. And overboard and she said something whi doesnt actually believe. She doesnt actually believe. Thats thing, the thats the main thing, the struggle is rarely struggle for freedom is rarely bloodless. Thats not bulldozers, is it . The for freedom is the struggle for freedom is rarely we rarely bloodless, and we shouldnt for its shouldnt apologise for it. Its how, understand it, her how, as i understand it, her remarks ended. Thing is, i dont and the thing is, i dont want to get bogged down in a want us to get bogged down in a one journalist. We that that the biggest story. Dont who biggest story. I dont know who she is , but i think what it does she is, but i think what it does pull into focus is who inflames tensions at a time like this and who calm. We can analyse the who calm. We can analyse the situation in. And its interesting, aaron, you say, you know, whats the most important story happening story is whats happening out there. Absolutely. The there. It is absolutely. The people, the people there are in mortal danger. They are grieving. Are bereaved , and grieving. They are bereaved, and they are in a hell zone at the moment. But the implications for people here are also really important. We have responsibilities and we do. And what but what did you make of some of the selling stations . We saw the israeli flag being taken down Sheffield Town hall down from Sheffield Town hall and replaced with a palestinian flag. Arrests made on flag. We had arrests made on kensington high street because there crowds of noisy there was such crowds of noisy arabs causing destruction in that area. And to say arabs, i think there are british people and who who support these things, who are not arabs or or arabs who are not arabs or or arabs who are who are british citizens. Its not. The point is, there are people who hold these opinions. I believe very much in free speech, short of incitement. People should be able to say what they like. And one of the reasons i believe in it is that we should know, too, that there are people among us who feel this way. And i agree. You have this. I agree extraordinarily. This is one thing think an awful lot thing which i think an awful lot of commentary my trade and of commentary in my trade and indeed politics indeed action in politics refuses accept about how refuses to accept about just how profound the intolerant hostility towards israel is in that part of the world. And among certain people. And among certain people. And therefore, the policies which we have up till now followed in the west towards this need to be revised. We are not dealing i ive ive been to gaza. Im not a defender of everything israel doesis a defender of everything israel does is absolutely its a country which has i dont know whether you met many awful things but i think this is a very interesting revelation to us of just how deep us this hatred of israel is. You know, its very much deep enough to do to massacre children and their parents, unarmed people. And its different to russia, ukraine. But what it has also made me realise is to the same extent that the vast majority of people were asleep to the what was happening in ukraine for eight years before putin arrived over overnight , people eight years before putin arrived over overnight, people thought this woken a lot of people up to something that has been there going on with people in that area living with these tensions for let me just put to for so long. Let me just put to you what tony blair has said. Please, aaron. So tony blair has said, as the full nature of the barbarity and disgusting savagery on savagery of hamass attack on israel the israel becomes clear, which the perpetrators full well will perpetrators know full well will result not only in grief and tragedy israelis, but also tragedy for israelis, but also for people gaza. It for the people of gaza. It becomes clear that decades becomes clear also that decades of western of conventional western diplomacy around the Israeli Palestinian issue will need to be fundamentally rethought. What does he mean . Rethought. What does he mean . Well, i actually dont i dont quite agree with that because the oslo accords of the mid 1990s, im sure many of your audience are familiar with those. There conditions put those. There were conditions put on sides. One of the on all sides. One of the conditions for the conditions was for the International Community to ensure that israel observes International Law hasnt happened. International law hasnt happened. One the conditions happened. One of the conditions of what was put towards the plo who do not agree with hamas actually, people each actually, these people hate each other. Palestine was the other. Inside palestine was the recognition israel. Peter recognition of israel. Peter said states dont recognise said arab states dont recognise israel. The plo. The palestinian israel. The plo. The Palestinian Authority recognised Israel Authority has recognised israel for years. Hamas said for 30 years. Hamas said anything about recognition at all, we did say earlier, it all, but we did say earlier, it doesnt peter, it doesnt matter, peter, it doesnt matter, peter, it doesnt matter. I agree with a great of what you said great deal of what you said regardless. Lets not, you regardless. So lets not, you know, hairs. The plo, know, split hairs. The plo, however, know, have however, you know, they have recognised years. Recognised israel for 30 years. And one of the conditions for recognised israel for 30 years. And israelis the conditions for recognised israel for 30 years. And israelis was conditions for recognised israel for 30 years. And israelis was to |ditions for recognised israel for 30 years. And israelis was to notjns for recognised israel for 30 years. Andisraelis was to not buildr the israelis was to not build new settlements. They have new settlements. And they have basically built settlements every last years. Every day for the last 30 years. However, way saying however, im in no way saying that justifies what hamas however, im in no way saying thatjustifies what hamas has that justifies what hamas has done. Terrorist atrocity. Done. Its terrorist atrocity. Its what say its appalling what i would say is when barely anybody is meeting, of the meeting, barely any of the conditions decades, conditions for three decades, it strikes a bit strange to strikes me as a bit strange to say, oh, well, that wasnt working. Know working. Well, we dont know because was adhering to because nobody was adhering to the what i would the conditions. So what i would say think this is say is and i think this is common sense, most people see whats happening and whats happening in gaza and israel they know that if israel and they know that if your friend or your Family Member killed, will member is killed, it will radicalise i think radicalise you. And i think every that is bombarded in every tower that is bombarded in gaza right a recruiting gaza right now is a recruiting sergeant hamas. And i think sergeant for hamas. And i think thatis sergeant for hamas. And i think that is just sensible. I think very sensible people israel very sensible people in israel know to know that, too. Ive spoken to them. Think , you know, i them. So i think, you know, i think the worry for israel is and is somebody you know, and this is somebody you know, im this the outside, im on this from the outside, id you dont want make the id you dont want to make the same as the united same mistake as the United States 2001, which is you states after 2001, which is you suffer historic barbaric suffer a huge historic barbaric injustice you proceed injustice and you proceed to make of mistakes which make a series of mistakes which actually over the long term, make your country less safe. Peter, inclined to agree peter, im inclined to agree with some that. Dont with with some of that. I dont ive criticised the past ive criticised in the past several the israeli attacks several of the israeli attacks on because think theyre on gaza because i think theyre fundamentally they fundamentally pointless and they will inevitably result in not intentionally, they will inevitably therefore intentionally, they will in is itably therefore intentionally, they will in is onnly therefore intentionally, they will in is on the therefore intentionally, they will in is on the conscienceierefore intentionally, they will in is on the conscience offore intentionally, they will in is on the conscience of those it is on the conscience of those who them in the deaths of who order them in the deaths of innocent think the innocent people. I think the fundamental reason for these attacks is internal israeli politics. The government, which has little power has actually very little power to do anything much about it, trying to look if it does. Trying to look as if it does. And i wouldnt i wouldnt recommend a policy, recommend it myself as a policy, nor do i think its particularly wise, although you can see the political groundswell building for it a ground attack in gaza, which is in very grave danger of getting seriously bogged down and of not achieving its , uh, and of not achieving its, uh, its objectives. By the way, the one thing i will say i really do get sick of people describing what hamas is threatening to do to hostages as execution. To its hostages as execution. Theyre saying if israel attacks without warning, they will execute. No, they will not execute. No, they will not execute and they will murder them that word. Its not them. That is the word. Its not execution. Execution is the execution. Execution is the thing you under the law. They thing you do under the law. They will murder them they will do will murder them if they will do it. I think should we it. And i think we should we should things by their it. And i think we should we should names. Ngs by their it. And i think we should we should names. This3y their it. And i think we should we should names. This has1eir it. And i think we should we should names. This has been proper names. This has been a pogrom and a massacre. And now the same people are threatening murder. If you think murder. And it is if you think that this can be negotiated with two state solution and all the other all the all the other nostrums which have been put fonnard by by western diplomacy for the past 30 or 40 years. So youve actually you are gravely mistaken. You are in agreement with tony blair. Thats got to be he doesnt say what he wants to do. I mean, what would what would him, of all people, a who him, of all people, a man who wandered pretending to be wandered around pretending to be a middle east peace envoy, peace envoy taking a middle east peace envoy, peace e|lot taking a middle east peace envoy, peace e|lot of taking a middle east peace envoy, peace e|lot of hotel taking a middle east peace envoy, peace e|lot of hotel space taking a middle east peace envoy, peace e|lot of hotel space in taking a lot of hotel space in jerusalem while doing so. What there no solution. There is no solution. And i think of the problems is think one of the problems is i ive many times been to this area. One of the colleagues with whom i worked is an arab israeli and a Fascinating Group of people who are both arabs and citizens, full citizens of voting, of israel and voting, citizens of israel and a very clever man. And we were trying to get out of out of ramallah, out of jerusalem, into ramallah, out of jerusalem, into ramallah and into the west bank quite recently , and driving. And quite recently, and driving. And he found way around and it was very difficult. We got through past all these barricades. He said, oh, how i long for the good old days before we had peace the situation in that peace. The situation in that area was much, much better for most people before the western world got so involved in trying to create a permanent solution. To create a permanent solution. It may well be that the only solution is actually that the two groups of people live together without any attempt to reach a definite solution. In fact , thats the way my reach a definite solution. In fact, thats the way my mind tends. The friendship and cooperation which existed between israelis and their arab neighbours before that , arabs neighbours before that, arabs came in in their tens of thousands to work in israel, took good wages , home, raised took good wages, home, raised the standard of living of the area, personal relations were, in many cases, good. Thats in many cases gone. Was many cases gone. What was happening before the before the hamas attack . Israel was relaxing the border and giving much increased numbers of work permits to gaza residents so they could go out and work a sensible thing. But of course, as long as you have hamas, there , theres always the danger that they will that a danger they will see that as a danger to too real. To all too real. Right. Peter . Aaron, thank you for now. Were going to take a break. The gb news is a quick break. The gb news is Political EditorChristopher Hope hotfooted back hope has hotfooted it back from an keir starmer an interview with keir starmer where gets to where he actually gets him to speak about immigration. Dont go youre listening to gb news radio. Radio. Very good evening. Very good evening. Welcome back to dewbs co. Its me, bev turner. This week, while michelle takes a holiday , while michelle takes a holiday, ive got Aaron Bastani with me and Peter Hitchens. Peter hitchens is just digesting the quotes from tony blair about what in middle what he would do in the middle east cryptically talks east or he cryptically talks about doesnt tell us about what he doesnt tell us what would do, but he said it what he would do, but he said it needs to be done differently. Well, they being done well, they are being done differently. Been differently. They have been for some is part of some time. And this is part of the behind this. The this the reason behind this. The this set of agreements starting with the abraham have meant the abraham accords, have meant that been that israel has been making diplomatic relations and closer trading with lots of trading relations with lots of arab countries, which very arab countries, which until very recently turned their recently would have turned their backs israel completely and recently would have turned their bacinothing ael completely and recently would have turned their bacinothing to completely and recently would have turned their bacinothing to do mpletely and recently would have turned their bacinothing to do with tely and recently would have turned their bacinothing to do with it. and recently would have turned their bacinothing to do with it. Andi had nothing to do with it. And quite , hamas in gaza , quite obviously, hamas in gaza, one of their objectives would be to try to derail that kind of thing. So blair is presumably interested in continuing in that way. It would be interesting if he would admit that the two state solution and all the Everything Else from madrid to oslo had been a mistake. I doubt whether he will. Well, clearly not working. It is fascinating the way in which you see israel is the only country which is blamed for its own enemies. Its there are i can name you several countries in which terrible things have happened, in which which, which are now prosper, joyous, free, reasonably happy countries , but which have as countries, but which have as their foundation the dispossession of the original inhabitants , which is more of inhabitants, which is more of a problem in israel now. But israel is the only one of those which is constantly attacked for this and where the issue is constantly kept open because the inhabitants there, inhabitants is still there, isnt peter . Mean, well, isnt it, peter . I mean, well, the inhabitants are still there in theyre in the United States and theyre still australia. Still there in australia. Numerically, theyre small. Numerically, theyre very small. There were 50 i mean, if there were just 50 million americans, million native americans, i think they probably would be bit. Well, the wait a minute. If you enormous ethnic you the enormous ethnic cleansing of germans from Eastern Europe 1945, Eastern Europe after 1945, the dispossession of greeks and turks after first world turks after the first world after after the first world war, these terrible things have these these terrible things have happened. Still happened. And but they still have the biggest of them all. They have the biggest of they still have the biggest of them partitions of the them all the partitions of the partition of india and pakistan. These things were terrible. And in many cases unforgivable. But but the fact is, people have learned to live with them. They still this is the this is the only one where the case is kept open and is three quarters of a century since because they dont have a state. Peter, go on. Peter, go on. Go on, aaron. Go on, aaron. Look, they never did. Look, they never did. Germany, or can germany, germany, or we can talk about that as well. Germany after 1945, there were actually two states, werent two german states, werent there, course, but the there, of course, but the federal west, west german repubuc republic was the continuity. German after german state. Even after committing awful committing the most awful atrocities 20th century, atrocities of the 20th century, arguably history, the arguably in human history, the german still allowed german people were still allowed a german state. I mean, regardless of they lost a great deal of territory and population transfers and whatnot. So i think germans have the right think if germans have the right to National Self determination, even it seems simple even after 1945, it seems simple for me that palestinians should do. What i would say is, look, do. What i would say is, look, theres going to be solved theres not going to be solved for a century. But the first wont be solved for a century. A ut the first wont be solved for a century. A century. st wont be solved for a century. A century. st wonthink olved for a century. A century. st wonthink itved for a century. I dont think it could you know, before we could be. You know, before we went to the break, i nearly said to you, aaron, i nearly said to aaron, running aaron, were running out of time. Me, is this going to time. Tell me, is this going to be over quickly or is it going to long time . Youve just to take a long time . Youve just answered it saying going to answered it saying its going to take years. Theres too much take 100 years. Theres too much bloodshed. Its simply too much i mean, its simply too much bloodshed. Take bloodshed. Its going to take multiple for multiple generations years for that overcome. And that multiple generations years for thatto overcome. And that multiple generations years for thatto startvercome. And that multiple generations years for thatto start bycome. And that multiple generations years for thatto start by the e. And that multiple generations years for thatto start by the receding at multiple generations years for thatto start by the receding of has to start by the receding of the kinds of scenes that weve seen actually in recent years, not just the last week, seen actually in recent years, notjust the last week, but, not just in the last week, but, you know, since really operation cast lead 2008, 2014, horrific you know, since really operation cast leiand 08, 2014, horrific you know, since really operation cast leiand of}, 2014, horrific you know, since really operation cast leiand of course, horrific scenes. And of course, this which israel, which is appalling in israel, too. Has to be the first too. So that has to be the first step. And i think that i think that the major problem actually for course, whats for israel is of course, whats going hamas. They going on with hamas. They have a second which people second problem, which people dont about in this dont really talk about in this country, is the rise of country, which is the rise of religious their own religious fanatics in their own politics. Have two politics. And you have two Political Parties in the Israeli Government even allow government who dont even allow women to stand for parliament. And course, and the problem is, of course, fanatics fanatics a fanatics versus fanatics in a political means the space political sense means the space for shrinks. So for compromise shrinks. So i think a very way away i well, what happens next, Peter Hitchens . What i guess we have a very similar to russia in ukraine, actually. We have various leaders from the western world now deciding what to do next. You know, weve got biden sending ships out there, aircraft carriers. What what do we want our governments, what do we want our governments, what do we want . Our governments . What do i want our government to do . I want our government and all governments all western governments and everybody the western World Everybody in the western world to re examine their their cliched towards cliched attitudes towards all this that they were this and to see that they were obviously not going to i, this and to see that they were odoubtly not going to i, this and to see that they were odoubt illot going to i, this and to see that they were odoubt ill get oing to i, this and to see that they were odoubt ill get that to i, this and to see that they were odoubt ill get that. O i, this and to see that they were odoubt ill get that. Just i, this and to see that they were odoubt ill get that. Just as i, i doubt ill get that. Just as after september the 11th, i wanted an intelligent response to a terrible massacre and tragedy and didnt see one. And i fear very much that you might get for political reasons. And the israeli domestic politics, american domestic politics and the complicated politics of the arab world. You might again get totally wrong responses to it. I hope not. But i would the wrong response. Well, the wrong response would be to carry on doing the same thing as weve been doing all along. Its extraordinary little its extraordinary how Little People this and yet people know about this and yet how strongly they voice opinions about the fundamental about it. But the fundamental question i put to people with aarons position is what . What is it that they want in . Is it that they want the formerly dispossessed people of the region to be rehoused and to live decent, happy, prosperous lives with their with their families working at things they want to do, living thing as i say, in peace and friendship with their neighbours. Or do they want to make a constant political point. A political point. Gaza is a fascinating illustration of this. Gaza could be dubai. It this. Gaza could be dubai. It has a fantastic position. Its its people are incredibly economically active. Read the economically active. Read the fascinating book by my friend don mcintyre about gaza. Its full of well intentioned, good people who could make a go of it if they were given a chance. But they have this stupid government which wants to use them permanently as a battering ram against the united against israel. When the united arab comes along arab emirates comes along and builds lovely new housing builds these lovely new housing next sea in gaza, what next to the sea in gaza, what does hamas do . Hamas starts a war. So the israelis shell the new housing. Its a futile but but thats because hamas doesnt want to help the people. And nor do the other terrorists. Political organisations of the region want to help the people they claim to represent. They want keep open quarrel want to keep open a quarrel which should be ended which should actually be ended on of those people. On behalf of those people. This potentially aaron. Is this potentially the start of World War Three . Again, i thought that was russia. Ukraine. Thought that was no, i never thought that was russia. Ukraine. You see, i never felt that was russia, ukraine. I a terrible ukraine. I have a terrible feeling this. And you feeling about this. And when you look countries within the look at the countries within the middle east, which are around here with iran involved and then america that perhaps america feeling that perhaps that they need to get involved , that they need to get involved, yeah, russia, i think, is playing very dicey, very dicey playing a very dicey, very dicey role this. Playing a very dicey, very dicey rolethethis. Playing a very dicey, very dicey rolethe attitude, the attitude of the attitude, the attitude of Vladimir Putin towards is Vladimir Putin towards this is very and it seems to me to very fishy and it seems to me to be extremely bad sign. Go on. I think youre right. No, i think thats absolutely right. That i think the implications here are far bigger than people realise. Iraq is still much in hock to still very much in hock to Political Force , which i think Political Force, which i think people didnt really understand in europe or in the United States. Iran, again, its very convenient to view iran. My fathers iranian, of course, i dont support whats going on in iran regime. Dont support whats going on in iran regime. Its dont support whats going on in iran regime. Its very iran or their regime. Its very easy look iran as sort of easy to look at iran as sort of backwater but, know, backwater, but, you know, theyre Drone Technology theyre selling Drone Technology right to the russians. Right now to the russians. Theyre using theyre selling drones , allegedly, although drones, allegedly, although we dont that for sure. Dont really know that for sure. To the houthis in yemen. Ditto with hezbollah. This is with hezbollah. So this is a this is a medium sized power. Its regional power. Its a regional power. Realistically and i think youre right to say that when you look at the confluence of all this hezbollah, hamas , the iranians, hezbollah, hamas, the iranians, houthis militant tendencies in iraq, world war iii, i dont know. But i think it could certainly lead to a sort of wider conflagration. And i think wider conflagration. And i think people dont you know, people are saying this is like 9 11. And i had some pushback, people saying not everything has to be like i actually think its like 9 11. I actually think its similar many so similar in many, many ways in so much go very, very much as things can go very, very wrong very quickly. If wise people moderate people, dont make the right decisions. Make the right decisions. But i think the these events were designed to make the middle east more unstable. And they could help to. Designed by who . Designed by who . By hamas does well, by hamas. Hamas does not stability. Stability not want stability. Stability means the rest of the arab means that the rest of the arab world accepts in de facto the existence of israel, and theyve lost. They dont want that. Lost. They dont want that. Thats why they want to keep the hostility open. And for them, of course, open confrontation course, an open confrontation between saudi arabia, course, an open confrontation betwewwould saudi arabia, course, an open confrontation betwewwould be saudi arabia, course, an open confrontation betwewwould be a saudi arabia, course, an open confrontation betwewwould be a disasterabia, course, an open confrontation betwewwould be a disaster fora, which would be a disaster for the rest of the world, would be an that nasty. Yeah okay. Thank you, yeah. Yeah okay. Thank you, gentlemen. Time take gentlemen. Its time to take another quick break. Im afraid were going to be talking about matters after matters closer to home after this gb news this break because gb news political come back this break because gb news politi liverpool come back this break because gb news politi liverpool whereime back this break because gb news politi liverpool where her back from liverpool where he got a sit down interview with sir keir starmer, and we will find out exactly what was said. Were considering labour or exactly what was said. Were con toriesg labour or exactly what was said. Were con tories know labour or exactly what was said. Were con tories know how labour or exactly what was said. Were con tories know how t0|bour or exactly what was said. Were con tories know how to fix1r or exactly what was said. Were con tories know how to fix both the tories know how to fix both our Education System and our crime punishment system . Crime and punishment system . Stay. Listening to gb news radio show i welcome back. This is bev turner, sitting in for michel this week on dewbs co. Peter hitchens is still with me and Aaron Bastani, im delighted to say they havent left yet, which is wonderful, but also is wonderful, but im also joined news political joined by gb news Political EditorChristopher Hope, who has arrived quickly from arrived back very quickly from liverpool the Party Liverpool from the labour Party Conference. Thank you, chris. Youve got to sit down with keir starmer i could come up starmer now. I could come up with big, big political with some big, big political question something deep with some big, big political que meaningful,omething deep with some big, big political que meaningful,ome i |ing deep with some big, big political que meaningful,ome i |ing iwant and meaningful, but i just want to what hes like. To know what hes like. He like . Whats he whats he like . Whats he like . Hes quite hes quite button him. Yeah, button like him. Yeah, i liked him. Known for over him. Ive known him for over a decade when he was dpp, i talked to him policy on assisted to him about policy on assisted suicide when he was suicide actually when he was trying to stop people prosecuted for taking families to switzerland. A very switzerland. I think hes a very decent hes quite buttoned decent man. Hes quite buttoned up. Buttoned up. He he you know, hes not he doesnt hes not hes not he doesnt really sort of relax into the conversation, he very conversation, nor is he very guarded. Guarded and guarded. He is guarded. And you think holding something guarded. He is guarded. And you think but holding something guarded. He is guarded. And you think but ilolding something guarded. He is guarded. And you think but i thinkg something guarded. He is guarded. And you think but i think ifsomething guarded. He is guarded. And you think but i think if iwmething guarded. He is guarded. And you think but i think if i was1ing back. But i think if i was meeting me, id be guarded. Youre not guarded, chris. Youre not guarded, chris. No, im not. Im not. Buti no, im not. Im not. But i think he. A bit. Yeah. Hes think he. Hes a bit. Yeah. Hes trying find the right thing trying to find the right thing to not saying too to say. Were not saying too much. Well, treading much. Yeah well, hes treading a very difficult isnt he . Very difficult line, isnt he . The moment he cant. He at the moment he cant. He cannot walk a massive cannot walk into a massive puddle disappear in the puddle and disappear in the quicksand the election quicksand and throw the election away he just has to away with it. So he just has to sort along and things happen. So he talked about a decade of power. Thats hubris. Dont forget, Boris Johnson planned 3 3 wins september 3 3 election wins in september 2021. The 2021. Hed be gone by the following i think are following july. I think we are seeing moving politics. And seeing fast moving politics. And they talked about in his speech yesterday stable yesterday about strong, stable government. Thats what theresa government. Thats what theresa may said. Then since labour may said. And then since labour are themselves against are defining themselves against what a chaotic tory party like theresa may did in 2017 and it fell apart, wheres the positivity . I dont see it yet. Okay, lets have a little look at what he told you. Christopher. You can see the whole interview on the gb news website, but heres what he said to chris. Well, its crisis on the south coast of england. Immigration regularly tops the polls. Issue gb news polls. The big issue for gb news viewers. Yeah, barely mentioned in is that in your speech, though. Is that why . Because youre not concerned it . Concerned about it . Not a problem if become Prime Minister . No, of course were concerned about think anybody would about it. I think anybody would be concerned, owned by a government thats lost control be concerned, owned by a go the|ment thats lost control be concerned, owned by a gothe bordersiats lost control be concerned, owned by a go the borders that lost control be concerned, owned by a gothe borders thatlost to 1trol be concerned, owned by a gothe borders thatlost to bel of the borders that has to be addressed. Thats why set addressed. And thats why we set out terms we have to out in terms that we have to smash criminal gangs that smash the criminal gangs that are trade. Go are running this vile trade. Go back my days as director of back to my days as director of pubuc back to my days as director of public prosecution. Did joint public prosecution. I did joint operations to terrorist operations to smash terrorist gangs. Convinced we can gangs. I am convinced we can smash the gangs that are running this file. Illegal immigration. What level are you happy with of the net number, 600,000 arrived in the 12 months to june last year. Im to pluck a number im not going to pluck a number out the sky, but and thats out of the sky, but and thats one of the questions of the election next year. What level of net migration are you happy with . Tories have allowed with . The tories have allowed 600,000 come here in 12 600,000 to come here in 12 months. Year. Changes months. Last year. That changes communities country. Communities across the country. What are you happy with . What number are you happy with . Keir answer. Keir starmer he wouldnt answer. When he talks the thing is, when he talks about stopping the people trafficking gangs, he almost makes hes to makes it sound like hes to going it himself. Like in going do it himself. Like in some weird sort of Indiana Jones like tv detective. Hes been to the hague and hes talked to europol and he thinks thats enough. And of course, to be fair to the party, the tory the tory party, the tory government, theyve that government, theyve done that too. Thinks that the personal too. He thinks that the personal connection, i think with the eu and might, work and the rest might, might work for him. I mean thats bit bonkers, i mean thats a bit bonkers, isnt it . Peter hitchens how is he the criminal he going to stop the criminal trafficking gangs when we havent stop havent been able to stop them so far . What does he know so far . Like what does he know if he has a secret . Can he just tell us now . I you think its a talking point that hes been given to fend the because he fend off the subject because he doesnt anything doesnt really have anything to say doesnt certainly say and he doesnt certainly doesnt terribly doesnt want to sound terribly enthusiastic it because enthusiastic about it because quite his voters, and quite a lot of his voters, and particularly a lot party particularly a lot of his Party Machine and the smoothies who actually him are quite keen actually run him are quite keen on anyway. So its on open borders anyway. So its just to say. He knew just a thing to say. And he knew youd him. And he was he was youd ask him. And he was he was hed been rehearsed by by his team as to what to say. And it doesnt you theres no doesnt give you any theres no way i feel sympathy for you. Way i feel sympathy for you. Theres nowhere in an answer like that into which you can plunge a knife. No pry it apart and say, do you mean . And say, what do you mean . Because its so vague. Yeah but on the other hand, its an answer. The necessary sound answer. Its the necessary sound bite. The hook. Bite. Gets them off the hook. A lot of it vague . Does was a lot of it vague . Does he. Just doing brushstroke he. Hes just doing brushstroke because particularly because i wasnt particularly impressed about impressed with the speech about well future back well give you your future back , have to listen to me. , but you have to listen to me. You have to listen to what he says. Me, brexit is a big says. So for me, brexit is a big deal says. So for me, brexit is a big deal. Of said in 2018 deal. He of course said in 2018 at the conference that if we have a second vote going back in, reversing the result in 2016 is on the agenda, he said twice there that theres no theres no we to go into we dont intend to go back into the theres no intention. The eu. Theres no intention. Now, been politics now, ive been in politics for long to that is that long enough to know that is that is interesting. Have no plans to, isnt it . We all we all hear peter, dont we, over the politics. So i asked him about tax cuts for our our for our viewers. He our for our for our viewers. He said just gb news viewers said just for gb news viewers because thats a thats a im because i thats a thats a im not sure im not sure the tax code for just our viewers, but people watch our people who watch this, our station, about them station, im thinking about them. I would like to. And he said, i would like to lift the tax burden off working people. Thats more than rishi sunak me saying, what . Sunak to me saying, okay, what . So the pressure now on what hes going it what money is so the pressure now on what hes going to it what money is so the pressure now on what hes going to uset what money is so the pressure now on what hes going to use to that money is so the pressure now on what hes going to use to lift money is so the pressure now on what hes going to use to lift the ney is so the pressure now on what hes going to use to lift the tax is burden . The fact that hes saying that hes going to do it though, so you should just think hes just making it up and he doesnt have the money anyway. Have the money to do it anyway. Well, for me is well, i keir starmer for me is actually very fascinating. In last hes surprised me in the last few years competent he is as few years how competent he is as a politician. And whats interesting with the speech and what in recent months what hes doing in recent months is highlighting big is hes highlighting really big issues the housing crisis, energy, hes very energy, whatever. Hes very happy in actually quite happy to talk in actually quite radical but then the radical language. But then the policies are tax on private schools non doms. Look, schools and non doms. And look, thats a year. That is thats 3 billion a year. That is not going pay for all this not going to pay for all this stuff. Certainly not going stuff. Its certainly not going to tax cut on top of to pay for a tax cut on top of it. So that for me is the big question. Whats the sort of economics underpinning all of this . No answer. This . And theres no answer. The schools i know the private schools thing fascinating because it thing is fascinating because it is so spiteful. Its his basically it is directed harming group directed against harming a group of doesnt like of people who he doesnt like and is supporters, dont and who is supporters, dont like. It has good purpose for it has no good purpose for people know. People who dont know. Talking about schools hes talking about schools not charitable status not having the charitable status and to charge and thereby having to charge vat. If they lose vat. Actually, if they lose the vat, vat stake, but vat, lose their vat stake, but they charities so they they remain charities so they can in charities, but can remain in charities, but they vat and they have to pay vat and therefore, parents have to therefore, the parents have to pay therefore, the parents have to pay extra super people pay an extra super rich people can sending their can carry on sending their children private schools, but children to private schools, but but who but the people who really struggle to do so will have to stop because they wont be able to afford it. Thats the effect it. Thats the only effect of it. Thats the only effect of it. Feel youve come do you feel that youve come away from those two Party Conference races knowing the difference now more clearly between conservative between labour and conservative in of their policies . In terms of their policies . Not not sure theres im not im not sure theres a great difference at all. I think mean, the ambition on think i mean, the ambition on house homes House Building 1. 5 million homes over a third more over five years is a third more than tories doing at the than the tories are doing at the moment. And anyway, the tories want to that target. So you want to hit that target. So you dont lot. The only the dont see a lot. The only the two areas that are going after non doms that of non doms and vat, that vat of private schools private private schools onto private school we have. School bills is all we have. I mean, think quite mean, i think its quite interesting how little difference there is. I mean, the old in the 50s, we have old days in the 50s, we have butskellism butler and butskellism when rab butler and Hugh Gaitskell agreed on virtually were virtually everything and were into now and its into that space now and its going difficult and hard. Going to be difficult and hard. And the problem theyve and i think the problem theyve got define themselves got is they define themselves against what tories against what the what the tories are but theyre both saying the but theyre both saying the same sunak is same thing. Rishi sunak is saying liz truss saying im not liz truss and keir saying im not keir starmer is saying im not liz either. Thats liz truss either. And thats going like truss. Going quite like liz truss. Id like liz actually, id quite like liz truss. We got time look truss. Have we got time to look at the differences between their education have education vision . Let me have a quick this because i quick look at this because i think this is interesting. I particularly our particularly want to know our guests as well. Guests opinions on this as well. Weve a little bit of water weve got a little bit of water in terms what would in terms of what they would do with havent with education, havent we . Labour said want labour have said they want to teach age six teach better maths at age six and conservatives want to and the conservatives want to teach at i teach compulsory maths at 18. I mean you if this is mean like you say, if this is all got, its desperately sad. Its not a pledge card. Why i thought it was struck by wheres the offer in 96, the retail offer back in 96, i was there for 96, almost labour. Labour going go. They labour were going to go. They were literally their way. Were literally on their way. They towards power they were marching towards power momentum. Remember they were marching towards power morpledge. Remember they were marching towards power morpledge cars, remember they were marching towards power morpledge cars, you remember they were marching towards power morpledge cars, you know,iember the pledge cars, you know, education, education the pledge cars, you know, eduttough education the pledge cars, you know, eduttough on education the pledge cars, you know, eduttough on crime, education the pledge cars, you know, eduttough on crime, educionn the pledge cars, you know, eduttough on crime, educion the and tough on crime, tough on the causes. Crime. Yeah. What causes. Crime. Crime. Yeah. What what got . Theres what have they got . Well theres five to do as five ideas he wants to do as labour leader, but its not really clear what he wants to do with it. I mean i think theres some i think on some work to be done. I think on the offer from labour the retail offer from labour they Everybody Knows they they just Everybody Knows they have they just Everybody Knows they havare they just all being are they just all being cowardly are they just all being com peter you could and peter because you could and aaron you you could aaron you could. You could literally up the education literally rip up the Education System and create something system now and create something fit for the 20 for 2023, which i dont believe that it is at the moment. Nobody seems to have the gumption to want to make. Gumption to want to make. Education is about politics and party, and the labour party, particularly the conservative party, because cares party, less because it cares less labour party less about the labour party particularly has been for many, many using education as many years, using education as a tool for politics and creating a different kind of society, which means the schools bad means the schools are bad because theyre about because theyre basically about political and, political indoctrination and, and egalite ism and they cant fix it. But the real problem fix it. But the real problem about this is these slogans , the about this is these slogans, the non pledge card as it may yet be, are just as tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime and tough on the causes of crime and education, education, education were the last time around. These were what are called populism. Their called manipular populism. Their slogans devised to appeal to sun readers to get them to vote laboun readers to get them to vote labour. But in fact, the real purposes of labour were an immense constitutional revolution , huge redistribution revolution, huge redistribution of wealth and, and an attempt to get rid of sterling amongst other things, which they concealed from the public before the election. Im going ask you this im going to ask you as this lot are, going to ask you im going to ask you as this lot to 3, going to ask you im going to ask you as this lot to stay going to ask you im going to ask you as this lot to stay here|g to ask you im going to ask you as this lot to stay here because you im going to ask you as this lot to stay here because weve all to stay here because weve got break. Got to take a quick break. I sorry for you at home i feel sorry for you at home because we get to talk about this during the break. But dont because we get to talk about thi anywhere1e break. But dont because we get to talk about thi anywhere because but dont go anywhere because channel good evening. Thanks forjoining good evening. Thanks for joining us. It is 10 to 7. Youre with me, bev turner, sitting in for michel this week until 7 00. Met columnist for the mail on sunday. Peter hitchens is here. I did call him a legend as well dunng i did call him a legend as well during the break and the co founder of novara media, Aaron Bastani. You will be a legend one day. Aaron youre not quite there yet. He is. And also the legend of the political world. Christopher still world. Christopher hope is still with talking about with us. So were talking about this you did keir this interview you did with keir starmer chris, starmer this afternoon. Chris, what the highlights . Were what are the highlights . Were there you . What are the highlights . Were the well, you . What are the highlights . Were the well, iju . What are the highlights . Were the well, i asked him about hes well, i asked him about hes got in this got a personal interest in this in the conflict in in israel with the hamas. His wife, with the hamas. His wife, victoria, is jewish. The two children are jewish and ive read that he observes friday with the family. And i think thats you know, hes obviously he and hes very clear on on the way on condemning hamas. I thought when the big moments of the entire conference was when the entire conference was when the minutes silence was ordered by Angela Rayner without any kind cue cards any kind of kind of cue cards or any kind of staging , it was ordered and it staging, it was ordered and it happened. And we had david lammy being really firm on it. And i think you know, aaron may have a view this, but if jeremy view on this, but if Jeremy Corbyn been in power corbyn had been in power when this happened, view there this happened, the view there was power, mean, was being power, i mean, by that, running the labour was being power, i mean, by that, that, running the labour was being power, i mean, by that, that, that, ning the labour was being power, i mean, by that, that, that, ning battlebour party that, that, that battle within the party about the, the pro israel , anti israel row pro israel, anti israel row would pro israel, anti israel row would have gone to the conference floor and it was kept outside the whole place. And the view was thats because of the discipline and its right, isnt it, was kicked of it, that he was kicked out of the parliamentary party. The parliamentary labour party. Member, hes still a labour member, but a member of the but hes still a member of the labour party. But hes still a member of the labour plost the whip, he lost, hes lost the whip, he lost, but hes still alive. Thats right. Yeah. Think right. Yeah. I dont think it wasbut i mean, thats not my job. Go on. Why not . Well because he whip over claims he lost the whip over claims that he. He frankly didnt make you know, the hrc. Know, he questioned the hrc. I personally have real misgivings about the hrc. I think like many quangos in this country, it probably shouldnt exist. And thats me and peter probably shouldnt exist. And thats on. Me and peter probably shouldnt exist. And thats on. Id me and peter probably shouldnt exist. And thats on. Id get me and peter probably shouldnt exist. And thats on. Id get rid and peter probably shouldnt exist. And thats on. Id get rid of|d peter probably shouldnt exist. And thats on. Id get rid of the eter probably shouldnt exist. And thats on. Id get rid of the obr agree on. Id get rid of the obr and few others too, but look, and a few others too, but look, my that politicians my view is that politicians should invested with should be invested with political judges political power and judges should judicial should be invested with judicial power. Like the power. I think things like the hrc, of weird, hrc, they sort of these weird, cloudy, areas. Look, cloudy, grey areas. So look, its up to the labour its up to its up to the labour leadership who who can and cannot an mp can the cannot be an mp who can have the whip. Disagree on whip. I mean, i disagree on that, but im not the labour leader. But were you leader. So but were you surprised on surprised that debate wasnt on the floor their the conference floor and their feeling would have feeling there was it would have beenin feeling there was it would have been in the conference had jeremy i think almost Jeremy Corbyn . I think it almost certainly would have been. But what you know, what i would say is, you know, the events of last weekend were so its really so unprecedented and its really hard. Really hard to say hard. It is really hard to say because, know, weve seen because, you know, weve seen obviously terrorist attacks in israel. Life. Weve israel. My whole life. Weve seen course, before seen them, of course, and before that but this this that to you. But this is this is you know, is on a scale i you know, this is on a scale i think , which is just wholly think, which is just wholly unprecedented. So its an interesting question. I think the politics politics of it would have been conspicuous. Absolutely. Yeah. Get pulled into this if we get pulled into this conflict in some way, who would you rather have as our Prime Minister . I probably cant ask you that, can i . Christopher . Well, i think i think they both stand on National Security. They are very similar. They do each other. And when do support each other. And when there was some prevarication in there was some prevarication in the salisbury attacks, the novichok attacks wasnt at the time. I think Jeremy Corbyn from memory was saying we need to make sure it was russia before we condemn russia. And that was seen be wobble this idea seen to be a wobble in this idea that supports national that everyone supports National Security were security when they were under threat. Definitely threat. And there was definitely theres separate theres nothing to separate starmer and sunak, but in a war time, its about character. Peter, isnt it . Well, i dont think i dont think wartime is in prospect, do you . Not. Not for this country. See us being dragged into this in any way. We are a britain is we are already a britain is historically in this historically deeply in this controversy because we founded what became israel in the palestine mandate in the 1920s and made a considerable mess of it. But so we are inevitably in it. But so we are inevitably in it and have to be in it as one of the most responsible and involved nations. So were stuck with that we like it or with that whether we like it or not. It hasnt necessarily not. But it hasnt necessarily been a particularly creditable course over. Course that weve taken over. What does it mean for for me, what does it mean for ukraine . So ukraine . Is the question. So would ukraine is obviously has to fight this war with russia and we dont know when its going to end. And how long can that support carry on for that from a from america they now got looking happening looking at whats happening in israel. More israel. Thats now drawing more attention will attention there. I think it will be an election next year. Be an election issue next year. Mistake what is dont mistake what is fundamentally political event dont mistake what is funaimentally political event dont mistake what is funa militaryy political event dont mistake what is funa military one. Olitical event dont mistake what is funa military one. This al event dont mistake what is funa military one. This isntent for a military one. This isnt this isnt an invasion of israel of the kind that the egyptians and the syrians launched in 1973. Its not that kind of battle. What hamas was trying to do and has largely succeeded in doing is to is to Effect International diplomacy and to gravely affect morale and politics inside israel. But israel still has its integrity. It still has its economy. Its it still has its economy. Its still defensible against a conventional enemy and indeed against a nuclear enemy. So it hasnt achieved anything a hasnt achieved anything of a military wrong to military kind. So its wrong to examine it as a as a as a military event. In examine it as a as a as a military event. In any examine it as a as a as a military event. In any case, military event. In any case, its not a military event. When armed men come and murder unarmed civilians and children. Unarmed civilians and children. And its not a military event, is it . Its a pogrom and a massacre. And it should be constantly referred to as. Can quickly say one thing . Can i quickly say one thing . Can i quickly say one thing . Aaron, is yes, please, aaron, which is that saying theres that youre saying theres a great agreement around great deal of agreement around National Security issues. A good sometimes thats not a good thing any thing because in any organisation you always want somebody its just somebody who dissents. Its just somebody who dissents. Its just so we talk about straw so useful to we talk about straw manning. Steel man. Manning. Its good to steel man. Your my worry on your argument and my worry on foreign particular is Foreign Policy in particular is that Labour Centre that between the Labour Centre and centre might and the tory centre you might not jeremy or you not like Jeremy Corbyn or you might some dissenting might not like some dissenting tory mp. Somebody like mr you know what that is . You know, contrarian, but theyre really people for really useful people for a society decisions. Really useful people for a soc if. Y decisions. Really useful people for a soc if you decisions. Really useful people for a soc if you think decisions. Really useful people for a soc if you think back decisions. Really useful people for a soc if you think back to zcisions. Really useful people for a soc if you think back to iraqyns. If you think back to iraq 2003, peter remembers 2003, which peter remembers probably ian probably more than me when ian duncan there and backed duncan went in there and backed the that invasion the government on that invasion and didnt question did they . And didnt question did they . Dossier what is fascinating that was a problem is fascinating is a very heavyweight did heavyweight people who did oppose clarke and oppose it and Kenneth Clarke and michael were both very Michael Heseltine were both very powerfully against it. Yes, its powerfully against it. Yes, its forgotten now. And robin cook and it didnt actually make all that much difference. Alas, that much difference. Alas, there was a complete. Well, the there was a complete. Well, the lib dems, of course. Yes. Surged in support and Charlie Kennedy for that position. Charles kennedy was also superb on and very brave and superb on it and very brave and stood out against it. So these people are but in fact, they were steamrolled by a wave were just steamrolled by a wave of a created opinion of the wmd rubbish and the dodgy dossier and all the rest of it. And as we now know, gentlemen, very hard to fight these things. Hard to fight these things. We the clock has beaten us. Aaron bastani, Peter Hitchens , Aaron Bastani, Peter Hitchens, Christopher Hope. Check out christophers interview with keir on the gb news keir starmer on the gb news website. Will you at 930 website. I will see you at 930 tomorrow for britains tomorrow morning for britains newsroom. Good night. Mcgivern hello, its Aidan Mcgivern here from the met office. With the gb news forecast. Todays rain clears south, turning sunnier in the north for thursday, but also turning colder as weather fronts sink south, allowing cold air from the north to push into much of the north to push into much of the uk. However for these weather fronts marking the boundary between warm air to the south and cold air to the north, contain some wet weather. And weve certainly seen a wet day across much of wales, the midlands, east anglia and it rains, sinks south rains, sinks slowly south overnight, still some heavy downpours parts of south downpours through parts of south wales, midlands east wales, the south midlands east anglia, and gloomy as we anglia, damp and gloomy as we begin things on thursday. But mild in the far south, colder but brighter across scotland , but brighter across scotland, northern ireland, Northern England , a frost in places and england, a frost in places and actually thats where the brightest weather will remain throughout thursday. Plenty of sunny for northern sunny spells for northern ireland. North wales, Northern England, southern and eastern scotland. Still some showers and a bit of a breeze for the north west of scotland, but not as much as wednesday. Further south it stays damp and gloomy, all the heavier rain eases for a time 19 celsius in the south, albeit with grey, leaden skies. Albeit with grey, leaden skies. Then the rain peps up once again through much of wales, the midlands, Northern England for a time on friday morning, some heavy downpours also potentially for the south east of england could some issues of rain could cause some issues of rain warning force clears warning in force that clears through Colder Weather through and then Colder Weather arrives the weekend with arrives for the weekend with quite a showers for quite a few showers for saturday, drier for sunday and some overnight frosts good evening. Christopher good evening. Christopher hope interviews sir keir starmer up in liverpool and tonight we debate does he look like a Prime Minister in waiting as the king speaks out on israel , we go to speaks out on israel, we go to tel aviv to get the latest situation and a potential really disastrous piece of news for the government in the rwanda court hearing. All of that in just a moment. But first, lets get the news with polly middlehurst. News with polly middlehurst. Nigel, thank you and good evening to you. Well, the top story tonight from the newsroom is that israel is warning its residents in the north of the country to stay home and lock doors, raising possible concerns of a possible infiltra ation into the north. Israel Defence Forces say at least a dozen drones were spotted in the region about an hour ago, but theres no evidence of any impact following the aerial alerts and earlier, the uks foreign secretary, who is currently in israel , was forced currently in israel, was forced to run for cover when a siren sounded and the video was posted on social media by the Israeli Foreign ministry. The government saying James Cleverlys visit is a sign of the uks unwavering support for the country. Well lets show you some live pictures that are coming to us from gaza in the south of israel. We can tell you that night has fallen. Now as you can see, a hubbub of light in the