News own Christopher Hope. So stay tuned for that. Let me bnngin stay tuned for that. Let me bring in our paper reviewer this morning, alan milka mihaylova. I morning, alan milka mihaylova. I did practise this with you, anna, anna, michela, the deputy Political Editor of the mail on sunday, joins me now. Lovely to see you, anna. Great to see you. Mean, at the end of the day. I mean, at the end of the day , story that has dominated , the story that has dominated the sunday papers quite understandably, the understandably, has been the situation in israel. Theres a huge amount of coverage of it because happened late for because it happened too late for it into yesterdays it to get into yesterdays papers. Mean, its wall to papers. So, i mean, its wall to wall, as youd imagine. If we look at a situation like this and it seems very far away and its hard to connect and yet already we have these very, very human stories on the front of your newspaper, the headline simply dont kill me showing the human of the terror attack. Human cost of the terror attack. This young woman, 25 years old, called noahs , been taken from called noahs, been taken from some kind of peace rally just on the border of the gaza strip. Shes been put on the back of a hamas motorbike separated from her boyfriend. We dont know whats happened to this girl. Shes many people shes one of many, many people with women, children who have been affected by this. Yeah, i mean, i was in the newsroom yesterday and just seeing the horror, first of all, in the morning of the paragliders, you know, these terrorists coming starting terrorists coming in, starting the. And then the story the attack. And then the story unfolded where it emerged that they were just taking civilians hostage. So not only were civilians being killed and a lot of being put out on of the footage being put out on social horror of social media, the horror of families seeing their loved ones affected through looking at these videos and then and then you see stories like noahs that makes the front of the mail on sunday where shes a young girl, a young woman who was attending a young woman who was attending a festival nearby with a a Music Festival nearby with a bunch of other young people. Bunch of other young people. Absolutely nothing to do with any conflict, any war, anything. And was snatched on a motorbike and has taken it to gaza. And this has been a tactic that was used on grandmothers , children, used on grandmothers, children, women, people , people who are women, people, people who are just being seized. And it appears to be i mean, the horror for their families. No one really knows whats happened to them. But it appears from reports today that theyre going to be used as either bargaining chips or perhaps human shields to ward off attacks. But its to ward off attacks. But its absolutely horrific. And i think you look a woman like that you look at a woman like that and the reason these stories are important tell that important to tell is that that could anyones sister. That could be anyones sister. That could be anyones sister. That could daughter, could be anyones daughter, anyones mother. Heard a horrific weve also heard a horrific story of an israeli woman being paraded through the streets dead half naked. Lets look at the response to this from netanyahu , who in the sunday mirror. Its basically saying, look, israel, we are at war. Now. Netanyahu is saying that civilians should leave gaza ahead of retaliation. This is only going to get worse. Anna yes. Well, he put out a statement very quickly yesterday day making it clear that israel is at war, which as anyone would expect, of course, it is. It is. Expect, of course, it is. It is. This is the biggest terror attack and the biggest security failure as well, not being able to stop it in 50 years. It was precisely on the anniversary date, you know, to the day of the henri paul war. So now israel has to respond, is already responding. So there is no surprise there. No surprise there. And how about the western world . Because there has been some coverage this morning sort of talking about whether, again , you know, we perhaps saw this with ukraine following the invasion crimea. Invasion of crimea. Has the western world been at the western world been asleep at the wheel . Got bob seely, the wheel . Youve got bob seely, the mp the of wight, mp for the isle of wight, writing your newspaper, writing in your newspaper, saying biden in the white saying with biden in the white house, wonder terrorists house, no wonder the terrorists felt then in the felt emboldened. And then in the telegraph, the sunday telegraph, youve frost, former youve got david frost, former brexit minister, talking about we must stand by a friend in a time of need. If it is defeated, so is the west. I mean, has the west been asleep at the wheel on this one . I think theres a couple of things going on. Firstly, there is very little appetite across the world to get involved even engage in more involved and even engage in more conflicts. Yes, part , conflicts. Yes, in part, understandably, because people have serious economic situations at home. Theyve got problems. But the world is globalised. So something in israel affects everyone else. Yes and america has certainly not been taking a very big leadership role in the middle east. It has traditionally has has had a bolder role to play. And then bolder role to play. And then what bob seely what david frost are arguing today and what other mps are arguing today and what other mp5 i are arguing today and what other mps i was speaking to yesterday, they all point the finger to iran and they say one the big iran and they say one of the big problems that the west, problems is that the west, including , have been including britain, have been cosying iran , have not cosying up to iran, have not been taking a hard enough line , been taking a hard enough line, while same time iran has while at the same time iran has been sponsoring terrorism and arming hamas. I mean, where are they getting some of these drones, some of these paragliders from . Lets move on to domestic matters, were here matters, because were here in Liverpool Labour Party liverpool for the labour Party Conference. Yes. Were calling this count your this section. Dont count your chickens because starmer has told dont get giddy told his party, dont get giddy over prospect of election win. Over prospect of election win. He complacent this he cant be complacent this week, can he, anna . He cant. I mean, look, hes in a very good position starting this conference not only in a very good position starting this csoference not only in a very good position starting this cso farnce not only in a very good position starting this cso far ahead not only in a very good position starting this cso far ahead in not only in a very good position starting this cso far ahead in theiot only in a very good position starting this cso far ahead in the polls,. Y is he so far ahead in the polls, hes also just come off a massive by election win. Yes. So a significant one at that. But 20 swing, was it to labour in scotland swing . Yeah and if thats replicated then hes home and dry with a majority. Yes. So hes sort of putting a note of caution out in the observer. My favourite line in this, a lot of it is sort of common sense. Of course, no one should get complacent. None of the labour actors should get complacent. Thats his message to the party. But where keir but theres a quote where keir starmer wont starmer saying, you wont see any at this any razzmatazz at this conference from him. Were we expecting any razzm atazz . I razzmatazz . I mean, all those people banking from keir banking on razzmatazz from keir starmer should stand down, be disappointed. Well, as ever, a of disappointed. � man as ever, a of disappointed. � man race ver, a of disappointed. � man race between of disappointed. � man race between sunak f disappointed. � man race between sunak and two man race between sunak and starmer in the personality stakes. Youve got some really stakes. Youve got some really interesting polling which is headuned interesting polling which is headlined trusted protect headlined pm trusted to protect womens rights and would beat starmer a 10 k race. Okay, starmer in a 10 k race. Okay, thats great. Delta poll. Thats great. From delta poll. However, voting intention is still and tories still 43 to labour and tories well behind on 28. What i found interesting about this data , interesting about this data, however, was the question to those surveyed does sunak represent real change . Obviously, his speech at the Tory Party Conference is very much about him being the change candidate, which after 13 years people said really . And when asked that 26 agreed he was a change candidate and 60 said he wasnt. He was just more of the same. However does starmer represent real change, which you would expect people to say yes, its actually only 35 say yes. And 47 say he just represents more of the same. So who is the change candidate at the next general election . Because its not these two dont know. I think theres a really interesting point here, which is that for rishi sunak, his strategy, point out, is strategy, as you point out, is to the change candidate. I to be the change candidate. I mean, theres an irony here because remember when because we all remember when bofis because we all remember when Boris Johnson was genuinely the change off change candidate and pulled off a electoral and a huge electoral feat. And i dont remember him calling himself change that himself the change counter that much people have much. I think other people have to that. But much. I think other people have to that. But rishi sunaks to do that. But rishi sunaks calling himself the change candidate, make candidate, is desperate to make change keir change candidate happen. Keir starmer doesnt really need to do that because by virtue of him being the labour opposition leader, that is the change. Doesnt he have to nail some colours to the mast . But a lot of criticism of him not really opposing much that the governments done. Im going to raise this with wes streeting whos on just whos coming on just in a moment, but doesnt he need to set stall because people set out his stall because people are saying, well, we love all the soundbites, but wheres the substance to anything that youre would youre proposing . How would you run become run the country if you become the Prime Minister . You the next Prime Minister . Do you think say more in think hes going to say more in his about that, anna . His speech about that, anna . Well, i think he has to, but i dont actually think the expectation going expectation is that hes going to much. To say that much. I the message from i think the message from labour staffers is he labour staffers is that he actually can be quite boring in his which is sort his speech, which is sort of sort of remarkable hear. But sort of remarkable to hear. But in a way i think they think people essentially going to people essentially are going to vote for their own vote for them for their own reasons and that they dont need to they dont need to show reasons and that they dont need to leg ey dont need to show reasons and that they dont need to leg ey d early eed to show reasons and that they dont need to leg ey dearly on. To show reasons and that they dont need to leg ey dearly on. Tois1ow any leg this early on. It is still about a year out from a silent assassin approach. Let tories implode just let the tories implode and very and watch it happen. Very briefly, lets just speak about this that starmer this interview that starmer has done the mirror on the sunday done in the mirror on the sunday mirror. Thats traditional that the leader does speak the labour leader does speak to the labour leader does speak to the the of the sunday mirror on the eve of conference. Hes going conference. Yes. And hes going with 1. 5 billion with the nhs. My 1. 5 billion plan clear the waiting list plan to clear the waiting list backlog. It will rescue our backlog. It will rescue our nhs after of neglect. After 13 years of tory neglect. Is it the right thing to be doing to targeting the nhs . Doing to be targeting the nhs . Here we go. Weve got well, here we go. Weve got a bit of actual policy and even some numbers on it. I think its an direction from an interesting direction from him hes also i like the him and hes also i like the fact that in the mirror hes talking wife who works talking about his wife who works for trying to for the nhs. So hes trying to do of personal and a bit do a bit of personal and a bit of policy which whether or not it will please enough people and show about show what hes really about remains to see. But its quite a lot of pressure on him. Hes got to perform wednesday, not least pressure on him. Hes got to perforwevewednesday, not least pressure on him. Hes got to perforweve got nesday, not least pressure on him. Hes got to perforweve got angela not least pressure on him. Hes got to perforweve got Angela Raynerist when weve got Angela Rayner coming doesnt want to coming up today. Doesnt want to be by his deputy. Be overshadowed by his deputy. Yeah, absolutely. And i think we might expect some razzmatazz from we might expect some razzmatazz frorthat shes the one with the that shes the one with the razzmatazz. Anna mihaylova, thank indeed for thank you very much indeed for joining this morning. Lovely joining me this morning. Lovely to jack to speak to you. Now jack carson, i hope is down the road for us in liverpool this week with Peoples Panel. Jack with the Peoples Panel. Jack what questions our panel what questions have our panel got our guests this i got for our guests this week . I hope can hear yeah well, hope you can hear me. Yeah well, good morning to you, camilla. Were here in the heart of the city at the lucy in the sky cafe here, where lots of people, including us, have enjoying including us, have been enjoying our breakfast morning. And our breakfast this morning. And were the by were joined on the panel by lesley tony lesley, lets lesley and tony lesley, lets come to you first. I mean, west streeting, health streeting, the Shadow Health secretary on on on the secretary on on the on the interview list this morning as well mark mean, well as mark harper. I mean, what kind question have you what kind of question have you got you want to put to those people . I think basically weve got a huge waiting list in the, you know, people waiting for operations. Been mooted operations. And its been mooted that theyre going to use private hospitals to actually help reduce the waiting list. Help reduce the waiting list. And i thought that was something that the labour party were against, you know, sort of this idea of privatising the health service, etcetera. And i was wondering how they square it with their basic principles. I mean, for mark harper as well, the transport secretary of course, been a big week for the conservatives scrapping that second leg of hs2. I mean, what what can mark harper answer for you . What can mark harper answer for youwell, think theres been a well, i think theres been a war against motorists and youve got sadiq khan in london sort of crippling motorists who are elderly , who are sort of on elderly, who are sort of on lower incomes by ulez. Youve lower incomes by ulez. Youve got Angela Rayner saying if labour get in, youre going to spread it all over the country. Ijust spread it all over the country. I just wondered what their attitude is towards us, the motorists, and are they going to make life easier for people who are older and, and have got less money to play with . I mean, tony, you know, former labour member for you, i mean, what questions have you got for wes streeting on the panel today . Panel today . Well, i want to talk a little bit about transport. I think a positive development in liverpool the last few days liverpool in the last few days is that the metro is the news that the metro mayor, Steve Rotheram , has said mayor, Steve Rotheram, has said that the local authority will once again take control of bus franchises , which will mean that franchises, which will mean that services can be standardised across the whole region. An across the whole region. An whereas the ridiculous situation at the moment and i feel this is at the moment and i feel this is a social care worker who has to go different places to work where you can buy a ticket for one bus. Its not valuable, its not valid on another either operators service. So this will operators service. So this will allow and i think this this could be a model for the whole of britain, for towns and cities across britain to once again look towards publicly owned bus services or publicly controlled. At least i mean, obviously here in liverpool, you know , at this in liverpool, you know, at this Party Conference. Keir is going to be looking to set out his vision if labour were to win the next general election. I mean, what could he say in the next few days that would that would persuade you to vote for him . There are so many i think there are so many issues now, you know, being mentioned waiting list mentioned about a waiting list for the health service. Theres also housing. You know, this affects my family as well, living at overcrowded social housing. Theres a long, long wait for any bigger accommodation in the area. I live in, in wavertree, theres so Many Properties as people die off with a soul to outside property speculators that turned into multi occupancy homes for students or from people outside the city outside the country. So ijust the city outside the country. So i just want to know really what the labour party would do to Start Building social housing again or Affordable Housing in general for working people. I mean, thats something that were expecting to hear from of course. Angela rayner speech today, commitment more today, commitment to more affordable know, Affordable Housing, you know, would that give you would that would that give you the trust back that you need to vote for labour . Vote for labour . Well, one that some detail would i dont know what form that take, you know, will that will take, you know, will we get back to the days when million were being million houses a year were being built labour or tory built by labour or tory government, was the case government, which was the case for maybe 30, 35 years after the war . I mean, leslie, what do you make on what Angela Rayner can say today . What could she say maybe that would that would, maybe that would that would, maybe steve towards labour. Maybe steve towards labour. Some positive policy i think some positive policy is where the same policies seem to exist more than a week at a time. I think the problem is, is flip flopping this sort a change in the mind all the time so you dont really know which direction theyre actually going in whether they actually in and whether they actually mean i mean , as a voter, how mean it. I mean, as a voter, how do you feel . Do you feel that the main parties are are an option for you now . Theres getting to be very little difference between them. Little difference between them. I mean, if somebody said to me , i mean, if somebody said to me, i mean, if somebody said to me, i heard rather recently, so comparing rishi sunak and starmer and saying that theyre like two middle managers and you can imagine them running a sales meeting, but, you know, running the country , you dont they the country, you dont they dont sort of fill you full of confidence that they theyre dynamic or theyve got sort of theyve got everybody behind them. They both seem to be leading very divided , you know, leading very divided, you know, sort of parties, you know , the sort of parties, you know, the labour divided, the conservatives are divided. You know, theres no consensus really. Theres not one shooting off in the right direction. You know, that you feel you could be towed along behind it. Right. Leslie . Tony, thank you very much for joining leslie . Tony, thank you very much forjoining us so far leslie . Tony, thank you very much for joining us so far on the Peoples Panel this morning. So there for your so Big Questions there for your guests. Guests today. Great job, jack and leslie and tony. Thank you very much. Well, joined now by wes well, im joined now by wes streeting Shadow Health secretary ilfo rd secretary and mp for ilford north for labour. Wheres lovely to see you this morning. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for forjoining me. Thanks for having lets ask you, having me on. Lets ask you, first of all, for your reaction to on in israel over to whats gone on in israel over the to 48 hours. The past 24 to 48 hours. I think the barbarity that were seeing unfolding our were seeing unfolding on our television on our Television Screens and on our social media feeds is horrifying. I cannot imagine what people in israel are going through and i mean, literally cannot imagine what it must be like to be under that kind of threat of violence, kidnap, rape, murder. I that kind of threat of violence, kidnap, rape, murder. I think theres no justification whatsoever whatsoever. It needs whatsoever whatsoever. It needs to be unequivocally condemned. To be unequivocally condemned. And to those who support the cause of palestine and human rights and statehood , as you rights and statehood, as you know, as i do, and i think you know, as i do, and i think you know, most of us would, this isnt resistance were seeing. Its terrorism. And our country has got to stand against it and stand with israels to stand with israels right to defend itself. Note , i mean, i know on that note, i mean, i know youve always been very strong in your positioning about your past with past association with anti semitism in the party. As you say, hamas is a terrorist organisation , yet weve seen organisation, yet weve seen some celebrating this in some people celebrating this in the streets of london. I mean, should they should the Police Investigate crimes investigate them for hate crimes potentially, do think . Potentially, do you think . Think they need certainly. I think they need to at whether crimes are to look at whether crimes are being committed and being committed here. And i would people who i think would say to people who i think with justification, worried about palestinian human rights, are worried about the escalation of violence, want to see a state of violence, want to see a state of palestine along the state of israel alongside a state of israel. What were seeing on our screens , i not only cant be screens, i not only cant be justified in human terms and the barbarity and the fear that the families are going through, it also sets back the cause of peace. Yes and so people celebrating on the streets of london and elsewhere in the uk had to ask themselves is where is their humanity . And do they is their humanity . And do they think that thats to going build support for a just cause or set it back . Because i genuinely believe the only future for israelis and palestinians is a two state solution through peaceful negotiation. Yeah and the pursuit of that cause is made harder, not easier, by what weve seen. Weve seen. Can i just point out some of your colleagues are going to be attending pro palestinian events in the coming days at conference. We already saw your colleague, espanha begum, whos the labour mp for poplar and limehouse. She was posing with limehouse. She was posing with palestinian activists yesterday. Weve mcdonnell , the weve got john mcdonnell, the former chancellor jess former shadow chancellor jess barnard, whos on labours nec. Mick whelan, the general secretary of aslef , are all secretary of aslef, are all planning go to for justice planning to go to a for justice palestine on tuesday. Is palestine event on tuesday. Is this appropriate . Well i would say i would draw a distinction between legitimate and serious events and campaigning for a just cause. Yeah. And the celebration of yeah. And the celebration of violence. But what i would say to people in this of all weeks, if you are going to attend such events or show your support for the just cause of a palestinian state, but also take the opportunity to condemn unequivocally the violence that were seeing perpetrated against israelis because we in the labour party, we support a two state solution. We support the palestinians right to their own state, but we stand unequivocally with israel and her right to defend herself. Some of the organisers here, i mean, i cant imagine what what would know, but some of the would you know, but some of the organisers these events, we organisers of these events, we defend organisers of these events, we def theyre organisers of these events, we deftheyre planning to march on organisers of these events, we def israelil planning to march on organisers of these events, we def Israeli Embassy. To march on organisers of these events, we def Israeli Embassy. Io march on organisers of these events, we def Israeli Embassy. I mean,h on the Israeli Embassy. I mean, thatis the Israeli Embassy. I mean, that is totally inappropriate for any labour mp to be associated with people. Think associated with people. I think i doing the only associated with people. I think i that|g the only associated with people. I think i that shouldthe only associated with people. I think i that should be only associated with people. I think i that should be taking march that should be taking place on Israeli Embassy place is on the Israeli Embassy today is a march of solidarity with the israeli people and with those families that have lost loved ones or are desperately frightened for loved ones. Thats the solidarity that should be shown today. John mcdonnell needs to think twice about seeming to be on the side of some of these palestinian activists at this time show some sensitivity. Time show some sensitivity. He i just say , particularly he i just say, particularly against this backdrop, the horrifying scenes weve seen on our Television Screens condemn unequivocally the violence. Yes. The senseless. And if they dont, again , against the dont, again, against the israelis, i actually think they will, because i think that i dont understand how as a human being, you could see these scenes. Yeah. And not show compassion in and support for families that are going through something that i simply cant imagine. Lets move on to your brief, because youre man who hopes because youre the man who hopes to be the next Health Secretary youve youre youve announced that youre trying to waiting times. Trying to cut waiting times. Weve heard from keir starmer today hes an today as well. Hes given an interview to sunday mirror interview to the sunday mirror where says hes got a 1. 5 where he says hes got a 1. 5 billion plan to bring these numbers down. How are you going to do that . Numbers down. How are you going to do that . Not numbers down. How are you going to do that . Not least when you to do that . Not least when you talk about diagnostic talk about more diagnostic testing, youre going to need more staff. And thats been a problem for the nhs for the last three decades or more. Youre absolutely right. And thats why were committed to the biggest expansion in nhs the biggest expansion in of nhs staff history, the staff in history, doubling the number nurses, number of doctors, more nurses, all the nhs needs all the staff that the nhs needs to treat patients on time. But everyone that takes time everyone knows that takes time and we grip the immediate and we can grip the immediate crisis in nhs of the backlog crisis in the nhs of the backlog on waiting list. If were on the waiting list. If were smart about how we use the capacity thats there in the system. So using tried and tested methods that are already being used in a small number of nhs trusts in the country, but could be deployed elsewhere, we. Will fund £1. 1 billion for. Will fund £1. 1 billion for evening and weekend clinics, delivering 2 million more appointments a year. Thats what are you going to get pushback from the unions on that though . Do they want to work evenings and weekends . Look, i can offer them well, look, i can offer them the reassurance that are the reassurance that staff are not be compelled to do not going to be compelled to do this. Dont all staff, this. We dont need all staff, anything staff to do anything like all staff to do this is going to have enough staff to i i have staff to when i when i have spoken about it, spoken to the unions about it, i think what they say is as long as its not compulsory and as long as staff are paid fairly, which would be, not which they would be, its not compulsory. Work . Compulsory. Will it work . Pockets of nhs staff . Yeah, because look, this is because i think look, this is and is the government and this is where the government have fundamentally wrong have got it fundamentally wrong on workforce, the on the nhs workforce, the doctors, the nurses, the midwives, the porters, the cleaners got through some cleaners who got us through some of times in the of the darkest times in the history the with the history of the nhs with the pandemic. They really care about their patients. There we the their patients. There we go. The extra mile. Their patients. There we go. The ext|youve. Their patients. There we go. The ext|youve got doctors, junior youve got doctors, Junior Doctors mean, doctors still on strike. I mean, would give them 35 . How much would you give them 35 . How much would you give them 35 . How much wotlve been ive been honest ive been ive been honest with them and said we cant afford 30. Put a number on it. But the beauty what weve but the beauty of what weve proposed million more proposed with the 2 million more appointments thats £1. 1 appointments is thats £1. 1 billion pockets billion into the pockets of nhs. Would you give them to stop them striking . Them from striking . Well, know not going well, they know im not going to do shadow negotiations. Just give us general go and just give us a general ballpark. Not going to ballpark. No, im not going to do too much. If its do shadow 35 too much. If its ten little. Ten too little. The Health Secretary today, i wouldnt be daft enough to give away position and away my negotiating position and i the i actually wouldnt expect the government but government to either. But we would be willing to sit down and negotiate. And i think, again, thats rishi has got thats where rishi sunak has got this because hes this wrong, because hes not done a day negotiation done a single day of negotiation with and given the with nhs staff and given the damage are doing, we damage the strikes are doing, we would get a ballpark would like to get a ballpark from labour. I think i think its fair to ask when people have had their hospital and doctors appointments theres appointments delayed and theres 7. 6 waiting, we would appointments delayed and theres 7. 6 to waiting, we would appointments delayed and theres 7. 6 to know aiting, we would appointments delayed and theres 7. 6 to know from 3, we would appointments delayed and theres 7. 6 to know from labour, uld appointments delayed and theres 7. 6 to know from labour, how like to know from labour, how would it, what would like to know from labour, how wou give it, what would like to know from labour, how wou give them . It, what would you give them . And i think the reassurance i can give is that during the last Labour Government there were no national the nhs national strikes in the nhs because treated fairly. National strikes in the nhs bec negotiated lated fairly. National strikes in the nhs bec negotiated with fairly. National strikes in the nhs bec negotiated with them fairly. National strikes in the nhs bec negotiated with them and. National strikes in the nhs bec negotiated with them and we we negotiated with them and we worked to deliver the worked with them to deliver the shortest times plan for shortest waiting times plan for the involve more the nhs, involve more privatisation, not privatisation. With privatisation. We will work with the sector bring down the private sector to bring down nhs for faster the nhs waiting lists for faster the simple reason weve two simple reason weve got a two tier our country at the tier nhs in our country at the moment where those cant get moment where those who cant get seen are left behind those seen are left behind and those who can afford to pay private are seen. Farage are getting seen. Farage have you no, you ever paid privately . No, i did when worked at comet. This did when i worked at comet. This is an old i am now and when i was student i needed a small was a student i needed a small operation. Is it fair enough . If operation. Is it fair enough . If id private insurance paid by my employer . Im not going to im not to judge people who go not going to judge people who go private. Going to judge private. Im not going to judge employers provide private employers who provide private medical insurance or staff who take up its perfectly take it up like its perfectly reasonable choice to make. But what want sure is that what i want to make sure is that no in this country ever no one in this country ever feels forced go private or feels forced to go private or gets left behind if they cant afford to go private. And i want to make the nhs so good that there a couple of questions. There was a couple of questions. Ineed there was a couple of questions. I need to go private. A couple of questions from tony. All, im trying to first of all, im trying to read it. Was trying to read his i was trying to read his lips, talking about bus franchising. Will you bring that back . And he asking about social he was also asking about social housing. I its obviously housing. I mean, its obviously easy criticise tories for easy to criticise the tories for 13 not enough 13 years of not enough housebuilding, equally housebuilding, but equally theyll and say theyll turn around and say there wasnt enough housebuilding yeah. Thats fair criticism and thats a fair criticism as which take on the as well, which you take on the chin. Ill say things in chin. Ill say two things in response that. First is we response to that. First is we can already see the difference that labour in power is making. Look what andy burnham has look at what andy burnham has done manchester, done in greater manchester, bringing back in bringing the buses back in house. Value house. Better value for taxpayers, lower fares for passengers. Seeing passengers. And were seeing other labour doing other labour mayors doing similar a labour similar things. We want a Labour Government right Government Support people right across the country to deliver Better Services and on the Better Bus Services and on the on the second point, which was just remind of franchises and just remind me of franchises and sorry weve talked that sorry, weve talked about that social housing. Forgive me. Forgive me. Yeah, yeah. So look fair criticism that know criticism that you know successive have successive governments have got this wrong. Angela rayner who is this wrong. Angela rayner who is now shadow housing secretary, like me , grew up a council like me, grew up in a council flat. We lived on it. How many would you build . Well , if youve got a target, well, if youve got a target, angelas setting out her stall this week. So can see her speech. What would like to see it what would you like to see it be . 300,000 a year or Something Like that . Well, not going to pluck well, im not going to pluck a out of thin air a figure out of out of thin air to pluck figures thin air. I would like to know because you do want to govern this country. Ill tell you why. And youll be able to see everything spelled our manifesto. Spelled out in our manifesto. Were determined to make sure that promise we make a that every promise we make is a promise we keep. Because promise we can keep. Because turning around this countrys challenges. Well, you say that. I keir starmer said in i mean, keir starmer said in 2015 hs2. Now 2015 he wanted to scrap hs2. Now he keep it. He says he he wants to keep it. He says he doesnt want to go back into the eu. But david lamont is suggesting that he does. Hes flip on quite lot of flip flopped on quite a lot of policies. Minute theyre policies. One minute theyre stripping of stripping private schools of their the their charitable status, the next back on that. Next hes rowed back on that. Oh, on, youve got a green oh, hang on, youve got a green prosperity that rachel prosperity pledge that Rachel Reeves said we cant reeves has now said we cant afford. Is captain flip afford. So he is captain flip flop, he . Flop, isnt he . No, and ill tell you no, no. And ill tell you what, quite what, on on hs2, quite reasonably. As local mp, keir reasonably. As a local mp, keir had concerns about the disruption that would occur to some his some of the housing in his constituency. Concerns constituency. Those concerns were thinks its were addressed. He thinks its an national an Important National infrastructure project. The whole the whole labour party does. The governments hole governments just blown a hole in you ensure that in it. Would you ensure that some of the people who had to compulsorily their houses compulsorily sell their houses for longer for a line thats no longer being constructed be able being constructed should be able to back . Being constructed should be able to i back . Being constructed should be able to i bet back . Being constructed should be able to i bet theyre k . Being constructed should be able to i bet theyre feeling sick i bet theyre feeling sick and bet theyre feeling and i bet theyre feeling furious and should be. Furious and they should be. What it says and this is and what it says and this is my anxiety about it, what my deep anxiety about it, what it in addition to the it says is in addition to the lost opportunity of new of lost opportunity of the new of the rail infrastructure, the the new rail infrastructure, the jobs, opportunities and the jobs, the opportunities and the supply also says to supply chain, it also says to International Investors and to other cant International Investors and to ottbig cant International Investors and to ottbig infrastructure cant International Investors and to ottbig infrastructure anymore. International investors and to ottbig infra tragedy. Anymore. International investors and to ottbig infra tragedy. Weve re. International investors and to ottbig infra tragedy. Weve got and what a tragedy. Weve got some the best builders, the some of the best builders, the best most best architects, the most creative designers this creative designers in this country. Do big country. We can do big infrastructure, hs2 from infrastructure, more hs2 from laboun infrastructure, more hs2 from labour, need leadership. Labour, but you need leadership. The i would the problem is, camilla, i would love able to say, look, love to be able to say, look, dont worry, guys, well be in and do hs2. But the and well do hs2. But the government have hole in it. Im not to leave it. There was. Thank you very much, wes streeting lovely to you. Streeting lovely to see you. Thanks for welcome back to the Camilla Tominey show live from the labour Party Conference in liverpool. Lots more to come. In the next hour, im going to be quizzing the transport secretary, mark harper, on the governments decision to scrap hs2. In liverpool hs2. And as were in liverpool for the labour Party Conference, ill joined longest ill be joined by the longest serving merseyside , serving mp on merseyside, labours all labours George Howarth. All that and more after the news with theo Theo Chikomba. With theo Theo Chikomba. Its 10 00 with theo Theo Chikomba. Its10 00 on with theo Theo Chikomba. Its 10 00 on theo with theo Theo Chikomba. Its10 00 on Theo Chikomba in the newsroom. Im benjamin in the newsroom. Im Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to take mighty vengeance against the terrorist Organisation Hamas after more than 250 israelis were killed and more than 1500 injured. In a surprise attack. More than. 313 palestinian towns more than. 313 palestinian towns have also died after hamas fired thousands of rockets and gunmen stormed the border , local news stormed the border, local news reported. Israeli civilians in border towns barricading themselves in their homes, pleading for help. The Israeli Military say they are still fighting hamas in eight areas near gaza. Hamas says israeli near gaza. Hamas says israeli captives are being held in secure places, include tunnels. Israel israels Prime Minister said hamas wants to murder russell m. What happened today has never been seen in israel and i will make sure that it does not happen again in the entire government is behind this decision. The idf will immediately use all its strength to destroy hamass capabilities. We will destroy them and we will take mighty vengeance for this black day that they have forced on the state of israel and its citizens. And its citizens. Speaking to gb news, Israels Deputy ambassador to the uk, Oren Marmorstein held back tears as he discussed the scenes after the attacks. The attacks. This girl. And she has blood this girl. And she has blood all over her body , grabbing her all over her body, grabbing her by her hair and the terrorist shove her into a car. And her shove her into a car. And her eyes, petrified eyes thinking what theyre going to do to me. What kind of people commit these atrocities to other people , to atrocities to other people, to children . These are the children . These are the terrorists we are dealing with. Terrorists we are dealing with. Police in london are stepping up patrols after reports of people celebrating the violence in israel. Videos have emerged appearing to show people in various parts of the city with flags flying whilst clapping in celebration. Immigration celebration. Immigration minister Robert Jenrick shared one of the videos posted on social media. He described those celebrating as disgusting and said there is no place for anyone who glorified the terrorist activities of hamas. In a statement , Scotland Yard in a statement, Scotland Yard said the met has increased patrols in parts of the capital. Labours Party Conference is getting undennay in liverpool and theres already been a big ticket promise for the nhs. Sir ticket promise for the nhs. Sir keir starmer has pledged £1. 5 billion to tackle nhs waiting lists. Under the proposals, lists. Under the proposals, doctors and nurses would be paid overtime to carry out more procedures out of hours, creating more than 2 million appointments each year. The appointments each year. The labour leader has told a reception last night that rishi sunak had been nodding dog leading to years of failure and it was time for change. This is gb news across the uk on tv , in gb news across the uk on tv, in your car, on Digital Radio and on your Smart Speaker by saying play gb news now its camilla. Now its back to. Camilla hello, now its back to. Camilla hello, welcome back to the Camilla Tominey show. In just a moment, im going to be speaking to transport secretary mark harper. Im also going to joined by the going to be joined by the longest mp in liverpool longest serving mp in liverpool , howarth. And well , sir George Howarth. And well get tel aviv from get an update from tel aviv from an mp. Also going to an israeli mp. Im also going to be joined a bit later on by two top political wonks. Gb news is chris hope and blairs former number two, john mcternan. For some expert analysis of whats proven very busy proven to be a very busy conference season. But first of all, lets bring mark harper, the transport secretary tory mp for the forest of dean, into the conversation. Thank you so much for joining me, mark. Its great forjoining me, mark. Its great to see you this morning. In to see you this morning. In regard israel , a mourning, a regard to israel, a mourning, a horrific situation playing out on the streets of israel today. I wondered what your reaction was to those celebrating this terror attack by hamas on the streets of london. An should they be investigated by the police for hate crimes . Police for hate crimes . Well, the events of yesterday were barbaric , with israel were barbaric, with israel coming under attack from a terrorist organisation , hamas terrorist organisation, hamas and the British Government stands unequivocally with israel. Its right to defend itself and what it needs to do to deal with the hamas threat. To deal with the hamas threat. And hamas is of course a proscribed and terrorist organisation in the united kingdom. So anybody expressing support for it is committing an offence and i would hope that the metropol police will investigate carefully any reports of anybody doing so and will take all the necessary steps aftennards. Thank you. Lets move on to domestic matters now. The conservatives didnt have a great night in rutherglen and hamilton west. Rutherglen and hamilton west. There was an 11 swing against the tories there, 20 swing towards labour. I mean, have the towards labour. I mean, have the conservatives given up on scotland . Mr harper . Scotland . Mr harper . No, we absolutely havent. I mean, clearly that contest was one where i think people thought that it was between labour and the snp. But no, we absolutely havent. Were campaigning very hard. Our leader in scotland, douglas leader of douglas ross, is the leader of the the scottish the opposition in the Scottish Parliament will continue parliament and we will continue campaigning strongly on important scotland , important issues in scotland, like for example, the fact the governments renewed oil gas governments renewed oil and gas licences. Were going to to licences. Were going to need to get that oil and gas out of the ground as we transition to a net zero future. And its important that do and thats been that we do that. And thats been opposed both labour and the opposed by both labour and the snp. So were fighting for the People Scotland and growing people of scotland and growing the economy. The scottish economy. Naturally, ill be asking you about hs2, mr harper, on the 30th of june this year, you tweeted, and i quote, in japan, i saw the benefits high speed rail can bring to connect communities and grow the economy. Thats why, the global. Thats why, despite the Global Inflationary pressures, we remain committed to remain fully committed to building hs2, building. It building hs2, building. It shows, we believe in britain and so does cancelling it show that you no longer believe in britain . Not at all. It shows that when the facts change, you have to change your mind. So look, first of all, weve recommitted to building the first phase from london, from london, euston to birmingham. And were continuing to deliver that. And thats having a big transformative effect, particularly on the economy in birmingham. But look , weve looked at the cost pressures. The increasing cost pressures. The increasing cost pressures that are facing constructing this project and the conclusion we came to was that those increased costs against the reducing benefits partly because of the way business and commuter traffic has changed after the pandemic, means that its a better use of taxpayers money to take that £36 billion of savings and reinvest it in transport projects across the north and midlands and the rest of the country to deliver for the people of britain. So i think the facts have changed. All right. Lets talk about increasing cost pressures. Thats why we made the decision. We some might decision. We have some might question whether the facts can have changed june. Have changed since june. Lets be honest, and also, lets be honest, weve known about the cost pressures of this project for years, but lets years, not months. But lets look 36 billion be look at that 36 billion to be spent on new transport projects in the north. Labour say 85 of them are. Old them are. Old no, thats simply not true. I no, thats simply not true. I mean, let me give you an example. The last thursday i was up in bradford. Were now able up in bradford. Were now able to commit to building a new station, new lines to bradford, improving their connection to manchester and elsewhere there. That was welcomed by the labour mayor, the labour leader of the council, the labour mayor of west yorkshire. They think that will help grow their economy and work very well with the ambitious regional plans theyve got for the city. So i think that was a clear commitment, not able to be funded until we made the decision. We did last week, but able to be funded. But now able to be funded. Why is the metrolink tram to Manchester Airport in there as a new project when it was built in 2014 . 2014 . Well, because it currently goes to only one terminal of Manchester Airport, what we were talking about was extending it to the further terminal. So thats a new investment for a new piece of connection to the airport. I new piece of connection to the airport. I agree. It could new piece of connection to the airport. I agree. It could have airport. I agree. It could have been better worded, but its very clear were now going to extend that connection to the second terminal. Could this whole document im holding it up now , mr harper holding it up now, mr harper Network North transforming british transport. Court. Did british transport. Court. Did you proofread this document as transport secretary look, its look, im very proud of that document. Its £36 billion of extra transport investment across, as i said, the north, the midlands and the rest of the country. I think there were significant projects in there that were not able to be funded previously. We can now deliver them over the years to come and people will start seeing the benefits in a few weeks time as we keep the bus fare capped at £2, not going up to £2. 50 and money from next spnng to £2. 50 and money from next spring to local authorities to invest in local roads. And i think those are important priorities for people across the country. Country. But did you proofread this document because its relocate outside manchester and preston , outside manchester and preston, it suggests that southampton and portsmouth are in the north, but littlehampton is in the north. I mean, if i turned in a piece of copy like this to the telegraph, i think my editor would have a lot of problems with it. Its riddled with errors, isnt it . Well, look. Well, well, look. No, no, no, it isnt. Look there was one mistake between that had at bognor regis and that we had at bognor regis and littlehampton. Which is littlehampton. One, which is a mistake. Agree. That was mistake. I agree. That was a mistake. I agree. That was a mistake. But look, its a its a significant document. A significant amount of spending across the north, the midlands and the rest of the country. I think it will be widely welcomed in those parts of the country where people can see more transport investment. I accept transport investment. I accept not everyone will agree with the decision but it was the decision we took, but it was the right decision for the long term interests of the country. Interests of the country. On decision about the on the decision about the manchester leg of hs2. Are you manchester leg of hs2. Are you going to apologise to people going to apologise to the people that their homes . That had to sell their homes . One i think it cost him his one man, i think it cost him his business for nothing. Business for nothing. Look, i accept that for those people where their properties were purchased for the leg of hs2, thats not going to happen. Look, i dont expect them to be particularly happy with the decision weve taken, but it was it is the right decision for the country. Theres a clear process country. Theres a clear process now that will follow Legal Process to deal with all of those property claims. But look, i accept that for those people that have had a personal situation, which has been difficult, theyre not going to be particularly happy. But government make the right government has to make the right decision the country. And decision for the country. And thats minister thats what the Prime Minister did week. Did last week. Are you going to be voting in favour of this smoking ban . I appreciate its the sales appreciate its the ban of sales to children who are now that to children who are now 14. That includes my eldest child. But will you be voting in favour of that . Know youre that . Because i know youre a libertarian, harper. Libertarian, mr harper. I remember being a very vocal remember you being a very vocal force in the Covid Research group. You dont like to tell your constituents what to do, so why are you making the exception on smoking in so well . Look , first of all, its look, first of all, its a free vote, but i am going to be voting for it for this reason. And im very much, i think, in the same place as the Prime Minister. Im not in favour of telling people what they can eat and what they can drink because its for people judge the its for people to judge the levels want to do levels that they want to do themselves. Difference with themselves. The difference with smoking theres safe smoking thing is theres no safe level smoking. I dont think level of smoking. I dont think anybody their children to anybody wants their children to take smoking. So actually take up smoking. So i actually think sensible plan to think this is a sensible plan to get to a point in the future where nobody smokes. I wouldnt support doing it for other things where there are safe levels. But i think things where there are safe levels. But i think for smoking, theres safe level of i theres no safe level of it. I think this is a good plan. Prime meant children taking up smoking. We know that most people up smoking do people that take up smoking do so children and then they so as children and then they find hard to kick the find it really hard to kick the habit. So i backed the Prime Minister on this plan i will minister on this plan and i will be voting for it. But isnt obesity now a bigger killer than smoking . Look , obesity is a big look, obesity is a big challenge for the nhs and there is work to do on giving people the information they need to make choices about a healthy diet. But the difference is its for people to make judgements about how much of different sorts of food they consume. The difference with smoking is theres no safe level of smoking and theres really no one that ive ever met that would like their children to take up smoking. So this plan is about making sure we stop children taking up smoking in the first place. Its good for public health, i think its the health, and i think its the right thing to do and i will be supporting it. Were once immigration you were once immigration minister are a member under david cameron. You the david cameron. Would you use the same as your colleague . Same language as your colleague . Suella braverman when it comes to describing to migrants describing hurricanes, floods, torrents as is she using the right rhetoric here . Well, look, i think the point the home secretary is trying to emphasise is that there are huge number of people around the world who would qualify under the refugee conventions , and we the refugee conventions, and we have to have limits on the number of people that can come here. Thats why we are putting in place our plans that are opposed every step of the way by the labour party to tighten up on the rules. Its why weve had some success already a 20 some success already with a 20 reduction in the number of people coming on those channel crossings. Weve got to crossings. But weve got to break back of the business break the back of the Business Model of those smugglers. Well, model of those smugglers. Well, look, we all choose our own language. I choose my own. But look, the point she was making was that theres a significant number of people that could come to this country. We cant we to this country. We cant we have to have controls and set the rules for ourselves. It has to be the british people that set the rules about who can come here. That was the point she was making. And i strongly support that. That particular point. She was its the was making. Its the governments tough border governments policy tough border controls, boats controls, stopping the boats coming and opposed every step of the way by the labour party. When do you reckon the first flight to rwanda will take off . Mr harper . Well, look, as you know, we that policy has been challenged in the courts. Theres a court heanng in the courts. Theres a Court Hearing tomorrow. I very much hope well be successful. Its worth just reflecting on the fact just today the labour leader was asked whether he would support the rwanda plan and even if it were shown to be working and he said he wouldnt. Now that doesnt make sense. Now that doesnt make sense. Weve got a clear plan to break the Business Model of these organs , these criminal gangs who organs, these criminal gangs who trafficked people across the channel and cause many of them to lose their lives. Thats not the right thing to do. Were going to robustly implement our plan, fonnard to plan, and i look fonnard to seeing first flights take seeing the first flights take off soon. Thank you very much indeed for this morning. Forjoining me this morning. Mark harper, transport secretary, to secretary, lovely to speak to you. Well, im joined now by you. Well, im joined now by another tory. Well, he was a tory, at least former defence secretary Michael Portillo gb news, presenter from 11. Now, michael , id news, presenter from 11. Now, michael, id just like to ask you, first of all, what do you make of what mark harper had to say, this transport in the north plan has gone horribly wrong, hasnt it . I i got used to the idea that britain is now not able to build anything competently. I hadnt yet got my head around the idea that the Civil Service ministers were service and ministers were unable a unable to put together a document competently. You absolutely him on the ropes absolutely had him on the ropes on that one. I mean, it really is pathetic. By the way, on my programme i will be asking the question is it that britain question how is it that britain just build any large just cant build any large projects today . When you think back used to be in back to what we used to be in victorian times, its pathetic. And lets have your reaction , please, the events in , please, to the events in israel. Sir michael its hugely israel. Sir michael its hugely concerning. Weve got netanyahu concerning. Weve got netanyahu talking about retaliation. Yes, talking about retaliation. Yes, theres no happy ending to this, is there . Theres so many of your commentators already have said it is absolutely horrific. I mean, for the time being, its fairly straightfonnard for the west because hamas is regarded as a terrorist organisation by most countries in the west , organisation by most countries in the west, and organisation by most countries in the west , and therefore the in the west, and therefore the condemnation is straightfonnard where its all going to become more complicated is when the israelis retaliate. Netanyahu is making it very clear that this is a war. The retaliation will be huge and substantial. Also, it is well known to everyone that what lies behind this is iran. And maybe the intention is iran. And maybe the intention is to provoke conflict between israel and iran. Its a complicated situation for netanyahu as well. Hes gone through a very difficult period with prosecutions, with an extraordinary coalition that he now runs. He hoped that his legacy was going to be the normalisation of relations with saudi arabia, that is now very much in doubt. And he has presided over a situation where the israelis have been caught completely off guard in a way thats unprecedented in the last 50 years. And michael , tell me who else and michael, tell me who else youve got on the show. I know youre discussing big infrastructure projects, but what else . What else . Well, by an extraordinary coincidence, theres a film out about golda meir starring helen mirren. Im going to be talking mirren. Im going to be talking to the screenwriter. It is a gripping film and it deals oddly enough, with the way in which israel was unprepared for the onslaught by syria and egypt in 1973. So weve got some fairly heavy subjects today, but i hope people will also tune in in case theyre thinking of celebrating sober october. Were going to sober october. Were going to have some non alcoholic cocktails. Cocktails. Oh, i love a non alcoholic cocktail being a teetotal. Cocktail being a teetotal. Michael, i wish i was in paddington for that. Youll have to me some. Very much to save me some. Very much looking fonnard show at looking fonnard to the show at 11. You very much. Do stay 11. Thank you very much. Do stay tuned for that, everybody. Now, 11. Thank you very much. Do stay tunencrosshat, everybody. Now, 11. Thank you very much. Do stay tunencross backzverybody. Now, 11. Thank you very much. Do stay tunencross back to rybody. Now, 11. Thank you very much. Do stay tunencross back to jack iy. Now, 11. Thank you very much. Do stay tunencross back to jack carson� , lets cross back to jack carson now the road in now. Hes down the road in liverpool the peoples liverpool with the Peoples Panel. Youll have noticed panel. Jack, youll have noticed that i did manage to ask, wheres tonys two questions on bus franchise and social housing . Whats the response there . There . Yeah, well, welcome back to a very busy lucy in the sky cafe. Were still joined, of course, by lesley and tony, of course, who have watched intently to those interviews that you did. Camilla with with wes and with mark harper. But, tony, lets come to you first, because, of course, camilla did ask, wheres about wes streeting, about about the wes streeting, about your on your kind of questions on on kind bus services and kind of those bus services and also housing as well. I mean, what did you make of his responses to those questions . What did you make of his res|well,; to those questions . What did you make of his res|well, ito those questions . What did you make of his res|well, i think se questions . What did you make of his res|well, i think the uestions . What did you make of his res|well, i think the problem well, i think the problem with now is with the labour party now is this they can make big commitments, but theyre so far away from really needs to away from what really needs to be done. I think the terrified of accused of being left of being accused of being left wing or socialist. But on some things you need to be socialistic about it. You know , socialistic about it. You know, weve got massive waiting lists for social housing. I think i saw a figure of five people looking at every room or house for rent. Youve got houses for rent. Youve got houses formerly family homes in liverpool where i live in wavertree, being bought up by outside property speculators turning into multi occupancy homes for students or from people who are just moving to the city or just moving to the country. And those family homes are disappearing and we need crash really . Crash programme of crash really . Crash programme of social housing building like we used to have in the post war period. So, i mean, listening to what he said on those points, i mean , do you do you trust labour more with with that issue . You know what do they need to say for you to go. Yes i believe that youve got like a proper plan. Well, id like to know whos going to be in control of the plan. You know, to me, you need to go back to the days when local authorities had huge responsibility housing. They responsibility for housing. They were building, were responsible for building, maintaining, letting, renting, housing. That kind of ended with the right to buy in the thatcher period. So id like to see a return to those days because, you know, local people, local authorities, they more the authorities, they know more the needs of local areas and governments in westminster. Leslie when we heard wes streeting talking about, you know, labours plan for the nhs, its going to be, you know, unveiled this week to get down waiting times. That was something, course, showed something, of course, you showed concern about a little bit earlier in the mean, earlier on in the panel. I mean, listening to him, are you any earlier on in the panel. I mean, listemoreto him, are you any earlier on in the panel. I mean, liste more reassurede you any earlier on in the panel. I mean, liste more reassured byju any earlier on in the panel. I mean, liste more reassured by whaty earlier on in the panel. I mean, liste more reassured by what he any more reassured by what he said were to get into power . Well, he mentioned. Six days well, he mentioned. Six days of hang on, see you. Hello there. I think weve lost the feed to jack there with the Peoples Panel so let me bnngin the Peoples Panel so let me bring in my next guest. So i was just having a chat to somebody here whos questioning whether gb news speaks to left wing voices. And weve got one here in studio. George howarth in the studio. So George Howarth joins the labour mp joins me now. Hes the labour mp for hes the longest for knowsley. Hes the longest serving and serving mp on merseyside. And george, i dont want to you george, i dont want to make you feel but my goodness feel old, but 1986, my goodness me, me, hows liverpool me, tell me, hows liverpool changed the years in some changed over the years in some ways to the point of being beyond recognition . Beyond recognition . Yes. When i was elected in 86, in a by election in my constituency , which was then constituency, which was then knowsley north, yes, we had a Unemployment Rate of over 20. Good grief. Unemployment rate of over 20. Good grief. Um, its Unemployment Rate of over 20. Good grief. Um, its now Unemployment Rate of over 20. Good grief. Um, its now around 5. It came down particularly under the last Labour Government. And you know that in itself changes everything. And its similar in across the city region. Yes um, we saw massive progress during the time of the last Labour Government in the health service, in education. Do we attribute any of the progress to Michael Heseltine or does that annoy you as a liverpudlian . I wouldnt deny yeah , that i wouldnt deny yeah, that Michael Heseltine i was a local councillor during that era and in a very difficult politico situation locally. He did some situation locally. He did some good things. Um, just down the good things. Um, just down the road from where we are. Yes albert dock. Yeah. The renovation of the docks has been extraordinary. It was an amazing thing to do. Um , and he understood and um, and he understood and that, you um, and he understood and that , you know, um, and he understood and that, you know, cities like this needed to change and they needed help to make that change. But also, i mean , you know, its also, i mean, you know, its important to note that apart from him , if you look back over from him, if you look back over that period, the conservative party have virtually abandoned ed . Yes. Is that how you feel that theyve sort of turned their back on liverpool in the north . Yeah. I mean, they virtually i mean, they will exist. Theyll will counteract that and no, weve come out that and say, no, weve come out with this new Northern Rail plan instead of doing the hs2 leg to manchester. I mean are you convinced document . Convinced by that document . I was mark harper was waving at mark harper earlier that theyll put 36 billion into Northern Rail infrastructure and buses . No, im not, because if they cant be relied on to deliver hs2 , having spent billions and hs2, having spent billions and billions of pounds on it. Yeah. Why would anyone say, oh, thats all right. Now youve got a new document. Yeah, but youre not convinced by it, george. Clearly, no. Lets talk about the labour party and where things are at now with keir starmer. I things are at now with keir starmer. I mean, things are at now with keir starmer. I mean, there is things are at now with keir starmer. I mean, there is some criticism that hes not opposing enough. You know, the conservatives are coming out with climb downs on the climate. Theyre talking about scrapping hs2 and their other policies and actually the labour leader hasnt really pushed back very against them. Hes very heavily against them. Hes doing this silent assassin thing where anything where he doesnt say anything and waits the tories to and waits for the tories to implode. But opposition implode. But the opposition has got oppose the government, got to oppose the government, hasnt it . , yes. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. But at the same time , when but at the same time, when youre hopefully a government in waiting, youve got to be responsible. Yes and one thing, one of the many thing good things about keir is hes very responsible and so too responsible, though too safe as well. You know, some people might be saying that, but people are looking for a government they can rely on. Yeah, a government that will behave responsibly with taxpayers money. And for us to be saying, yeah, well do that, i mean , at yeah, well do that, i mean, at the last general election we had 100 page manifesto with hundreds of billions of pounds of spending commitments. And even in agencies like mine, people were saying , well, are you going were saying, well, are you going to pay for all this . Yes. So the constituents themselves are a bit suspicious of massive spending pledges at a time of a cost of living crisis. And they think youve got to live as government within your live as a government within your means. Keir is very means. And keir is very conscious rightly so. So. Lets talk about this result up in rutherglen, because its significant this significant for labour. This i mean, are the snp basically finished in scotland . If labour make the same sorts of gains in other seats 20 swing . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean look, i, i didnt manage to get to rutherglen and yeah, for various reasons but train strikes probably well no it was stuff i had on locally but i went to selby and, and it was clear there were, the people thought do you know what ive been voting tory. Yeah its not working. Yeah. I want something working. Yeah. I want something different. I want a government with different values and i think thats happening in scotland as well. Scotland as well. I get that. Although theyre not crying out for starmer in the they were. Hes the way they were. Blair hes not blair, he . Not a blair, is he . No, blair was a man of no, but blair was a man of his times. I think keir is a man his times. I think keir is a man of his times. Yeah. Um. Tony you of his times. Yeah. Um. Tony you know, had a particular. I was a big supporter of him. He had big supporter of him. He had a particular style of leadership. That was right. But what youre trying to say, george, is hes got more charisma than starmer has, and that might a problem for that might be a problem for the laboun that might be a problem for the lab well, mean, if charisma is well, i mean, if charisma is everything, but it isnt. I everything, but it isnt. I think people are looking think what people are looking for is steadiness , reliability , for is steadiness, reliability, trustworthiness and i think tony had that and he had other things as well. You could argue to a point. George, final question. I have to ask this on behalf of my stepmother, who i know will be watching this show , massive watching this show, massive Liverpool Fan, should that Liverpool Fan, should that liverpool versus spurs match be replayed because of the var catastrophe . I know youre a catastrophe . I know youre a Liverpool Fan as well, george. Whats your verdict . It should. Yes, it should. Thank you very much. George howarth. We love a much. George howarth. We love a politician who answers a straight question with a straight question with a straight answer. You very straight answer. Thank you very much indeed. Well, ill try my best. Well, ill try my best. You try your best. Youve always your best since always tried your best since 1986. Much, 1986. Thank you very much, george. Anywhere. George. Dont go anywhere. Because a minute, because in just a minute, were going the from going to get the latest from israel, where ill be joined by Patrick Christies on gb news. Im gb news radio. Welcome back to the Camilla Tominey show. Now weve seen these appalling scenes in israel as fighting continues to break out. Im going to be joined now by sharren haskel. Shes the member of the knesset for the centre right party, the National Union party. See sharon. Thank union party. See sharon. Thank you very much indeed for joining me. I can i can only imagine is an absolute appalling time for you and fellow israelis. Can you describe the situation there for us to give us an idea of exactly whats going on . Thank you, camilla. Um this has been one of our most devast stating attacks that weve experienced in more than 50 years since the war of yom kippur. This wasnt just a declaration of war by hamas, but this was actually war crimes that were committed against the israeli people. These were crimes against humanity. If you follow some of these videos that were published , these are women were published, these are women who has been taken as hostages as they invaded , they as they invaded, they infiltrated 22 towns in the country of israel, in the state of israel, going from house to house, completely, completely massacred. Family after family. Massacred. Family after family. Were talking here about women , were talking here about women, children, elderly. This is children, elderly. This is civilian , innocent civilian civilian, innocent civilian population. These are children. Population. These are children. And, you know, this was not just a declaration of war, but it was actually crime wars and acts against humanity committed by hamas, against israel. Hamas, against israel. Sharon, before we go on, i just want to ask you whether you are safe, whether your family is safe. Do you have anyone safe. Do you have anyone directly connected to you thats been affected by whats happened so far . So far . Of course. I mean, we have 300 dead and the body are being counted. We have 1800 casualties and the numbers still are going up. Um, you know , one of the up. Um, you know, one of the head of the municipality in in, in the area was shot dead while trying to defend his family. His wife and his child at the entrance of his home. Now, this is the head of council that was trying to build an Industrial Area that is shared by israelis and gazan citizens. I mean , you and gazan citizens. I mean, you know, weve seen women being taken as hostages into the streets of gaza. You know, the streets of gaza. You know, the site that we are seeing are similar to the sites that weve seen in videos spread by isis, by guys all around the middle east. We are extremely worried about our hostages. These are about our hostages. These are women, children , elderly, that women, children, elderly, that are being taken to gaza. And by are being taken to gaza. And by what weve seen in the footage is they are being abused , being is they are being abused, being spat on in the streets of gaza. Spat on in the streets of gaza. Im extremely worried. Im worried about my family , my worried about my family, my friends, members that ive known, that i know. And were known, that i know. And were still looking for them. Um, um , still looking for them. Um, um, yeah. I still looking for them. Um, um, yeah. I mean, this is a devastating situation. Devastating situation. Are people trying to leave . Are people trying to leave . Has there been a rush on the airports . I happen to have airports . I happen to have a friend whos got a relative in israel. Hes coming trying to come back via jerusalem. Whats come back via jerusalem. Whats the situation on the ground . One the situation on the ground . One would imagine that israelis are now living in fear of their lives. Lives. So the military have recruited a the reserve forces in order to go down to the south to bring back the safety and the security of the citizens in our country. It means that theyre probably going to go and they they are trying now to fill a liberating , uh, to, i think liberating, uh, to, i think towns left in order to bring those citizens into safety. The those citizens into safety. The army , most of the citizens army, most of the citizens around the gaza strip in order to go into a full on a military defence move that is needed in order to liberate , uh, you know, order to liberate, uh, you know, children that are and women that are being taken hostage and are being held captive in gaza. Being held captive in gaza. Unfortunately, hamas has forced us to go into gaza again. This is something that we didnt anticipated because in 2005, israel completely evacuated the strip of gaza from every single living jew. They were given an autonomy. They were declared by autonomy. They were declared by the United Nations. And unfortunately, instead of building a beautiful single poor from this area to the gaza people have voted democratic elections and have turned it into a nest of terror. While investing all of their funds, money and energy on hatred , on money and energy on hatred, on violence, on arms , to fight violence, on arms, to fight against israel. Against israel. Sharon , what should the sharon, what should the western world do now . Weve had some commentary in our papers this morning questioning joe bidens international leadership, also of course, the question of how hamas managed to carry out this surprise attack in the first place is , well, in the first place is, well, camilla, this will be remembered probably as the first day of war between israel and iran. Hamas doesnt have the capability of creating such an attack. Were talking of a whole battalion of terrorists running towards the fences, getting infiltrating 22 towns and massacring family after family. We have technological capabilities. We have a strong capabilities. We have a strong army and you need to understand who is standing behind this attack. And its iran. The International Community has to join forces together. They have to single out iran and take them out of the United Nations on any kind of form. And any kind of membership , because they are membership, because they are standing behind one of the worst massacres that ive seen. This is not just camilla, an attack on israel. This is an attack of extremist islam, of radical islam on the western world. Listen, if they will prevail again , a country who values the again, a country who values the values of democracy, of freedom , of liberty, the next one in the line will be europe and more countries will follow up. This countries will follow up. This is a cool war that iran has opened against israel and against the western world, and the values that we share and chensh the values that we share and cherish so much. Cherish so much. Sharon heskel , very, very sharon heskel, very, very thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning on what i know is a very, very difficult time for you and fellow israelis. And stay safe. Israelis. Try and stay safe. Well, dont go anywhere because in just a minute, im going to be getting some top political analysis from two top political wonks. Gb news own Christopher Hope and tony blairs former spinner, john mcternan. Well be spinner, john mcternan. Well be back theres help for households. Are you over state pension age . If your weekly income is below £201. 05, or £306. 85 if you live with a partner, you could be eligible for pension credit, even if you own your home or have savings. Its worth, on average, £3,500 a year, and you could get help with heating bills and more, plus cost of living payments. You company right through until 7 00 this evening. Gb news the peoples. Channel peoples. Channel hello there. Im jonathan vautrey, who is your gb news Weather Forecast provided by the met office with a months worth of rain having fallen over some parts of scotland already this weekend, things will be turning just bit drier as we head just that bit drier as we head into the start the week. Into the start of the new week. These lingering these fronts are still lingering around throughout so around throughout sunday, so still some outbursts around throughout sunday, so sti rain. Some outbursts around throughout sunday, so sti rain. Initially, tbursts around throughout sunday, so sti rain. Initially, butsts of rain. Heavy initially, but they will slowly begin to ease off as we head throughout the day, patchier day, generally turning patchier and lighter, but still likely that see some impacts that we will see some impacts dunng that we will see some impacts during of the rest of during the course of the rest of this weekend. Elsewhere, a drier end the weekend, some sunny end to the weekend, some sunny spells trying to break through, but quite a lot of cloud across Northern England into of Northern England into parts of northern but Northern Ireland as well. But temperatures above temperatures widely above average of year, average for the time of year, seeing highs around 25 c in the south east band in the south east the rain band in the north sink southwards north generally sink southwards as head overnight as we head into the overnight period, itself period, positioning itself across parts of southern scotland, the scotland, fringing into the parts northern as parts of Northern Ireland as well. Elsewhere a largely dry night. A lot of cloud, though, pushing into western coastal areas quite murky areas will turn quite murky here, mild for most of us, here, a mild one for most of us, though, temperatures not dropping 11 to 15 c, dropping much below 11 to 15 c, a fair amount of cloud to start off monday morning, a fair amount of cloud to start off monday morning , then off monday morning, then particularly thick in this band from Northern Ireland, southern scotland, Northern England and some of the cloud along western coastal areas could linger throughout the throughout a good chunk of the day. The sunshine day. Best of the sunshine developing central southern areas again, areas of england. And again, temperatures notably temperatures will be notably above where wed normally expect them this point in october, them for this point in october, 24, 25 c possible. Again, 24, 25 c possible. Once again, the heat wont last throughout the heat wont last throughout the the week, though the entirety of the week, though something and a bit something cooler and a bit wetter midpart by. By by by welcome back to the Camilla Tominey show live from the labour Party Conference in liverpool. Im delighted to be joined by describing them as to political wonks. Dont know political wonks. I dont know whether disparaging or whether thats disparaging or not. Mcternan , former not. John mcternan, former political secretary to tony blair, me along with blair, joins me along with Christopher Hope gb news is Political Editor whos had some kind of never ending journey from scotland down to liverpool to here hello chaps. To be here today. Hello chaps. Lovely you. Should we lovely to see you. Should we look and then look look backwards and then look fonnards . Yes. Lets look back at Tory Party Conference. At the Tory Party Conference. John, free on john, youve got a free hit on this one. What did reckon . This one. What did you reckon . What think rishis what did you think of rishis speech . Hes the change candidate. Dont you know . In many so a disaster in so many different ways. Now, isnt that harsh . Oh, now, isnt that harsh . Oh, now, isnt that harsh . No, the first the first thing is is proposition the is labour is proposition as the opposition time for opposition is. Its time for a change. Yes. And rishi then used our slogan i say it means our slogan and i say it means you havent got original idea. I tweeted hes done a clip for tweeted it. Hes done a clip for labours digital sure enough labours digital and sure enough they clipped and used they they clipped him and used him labour ad rishi saying him on a labour ad rishi saying its for change. The its time for a change. The voters change. Thats voters want change. Thats labours how labours message. Secondly how can candidate of the can you be the candidate of the future when cancel the future when you cancel the future, the future. Future, you aim for the future. Heres plans for future. Oh heres my plans for future. Oh by the way, ive cancelled hs2. So what you so youre. What are you promising though, keir starmer wanted back in wanted to cancel hs2 back in 2015. Starmer all local, 2015. Keir starmer all local, all constituency mps have all local constituency mps have the right to oppose developments. They dont want. They want it to be the they want it to be done the right way. But look, think he right way. But look, i think he make up and stick to make his mind up and stick to it. Look, think they it. Well, look, i think they look instability in the look at the instability in the tories. You get it . Suella bravermans terrible rhetoric about immigration, but then you also get Prime Minister going. Multiculturalism must have worked because im an asian , im worked because im an asian, im an indian heritage. An indian heritage. Well, dont lots of people in the red wall agree with her rhetoric on immigration . I dont. Dont they think that youre create more youre going to create more porous borders in the in the red wall . What they think is the Prime Minister he stopped the minister said he stopped the boats hes saying hes boats and now hes saying hes boasting. Reduced boats. No. E5555 boats. No. Is keir starmer oh, no. But is keir starmer popular in the red wall . Hes maniac. He is really popular in red wall. John, come on. John, come on. 20 points ahead. Were 20 points ahead in the poll. Were popular everywhere. Thats why we scotland. Popular everywhere. Thats why we spring scotland. Popular everywhere. Thats why we spring chopperi. Popular everywhere. Thats why we spring chopper in. What did spring chopper in. What did you make of rishi sunak . Hes got an event it tomorrow . Got an event on is it tomorrow . Why it. Why is it. Well, well, well. There are rumours, camilla. No than rumours, camilla. No more than that. Be other that. There might be other things happening week with. Things happening this week with. With the tories. Its all the wrong round. Normally, this. Wrong way round. Normally, this. This has happened to pull the tory they tory partys one and then they get final sign off on all get the final sign off on all political news of the season and it them somehow messed it it annoys them somehow messed it up. Second to last, it annoys them somehow messed it up. Last, second to last, it annoys them somehow messed it up. Last, which second to last, it annoys them somehow messed it up. Last, which meansto last, it annoys them somehow messed it up. Last, which means which, not last, which means which means big. Come from means the big. Will come from Keir Starmers speech on tuesday and on wednesday. And rayner on wednesday. I thought conference was thought the Party Conference was a ten for me. A seven out of ten for me. Nothing dramatic. For nothing dramatic. My test for these parties how does it these parties is how does it make people feel richer, feel better themselves. All better off themselves. And all he going to bring he says is were going to bring down inflation, which is a bit of a kind of economic thing. I dont best tax you dont think the best tax cut you can have is for me to have station. Wheres the wheres the brave brave move on brave move . Make a brave move on tax. I dont mean inheritance tax, which affects tiny tax, which affects a tiny portion people and not many portion of people and not many people the people really. Wheres the big bold new moves for people i was just data. Just looking for some data. Im going try and remember im going to try and remember. From the mail on. It was from the mail on sunday. Today, delta poll have done survey and asked those done a survey and it asked those asked rishi and asked about both rishi and indeed being changed indeed keir being changed candidates and the bottom line is that this polling showed that people dont think either of them are the change candidate. I mean, created biggest mean, who created the biggest stir at conference was it was nigel farage. Yeah, one thing around but but saying nothing, by the way, free hit for him. News his free hit for him. Gb news his own nigel farage, colleague. Own nigel farage, our colleague. Esteemed colleague not so our esteemed colleague not making any not saying anything , just. Just existing. Just existing. I but im. I mean, the i know, but im. I mean, the point. The point ill put to john. You are very close to tony blair. Are people lining blair. There are people lining the going, blair, blair, the streets going, blair, blair, blair in 97. Thats simply isnt happening with starmer. Hes not as charismatic. He hasnt got the wow factor. There are some comment about how hed need to have some or he was saying, im not going to have any razzmatazz and everyone said, well, that doesnt surprise anyone. Maybe oh is doing something oh look, keir is doing something right to be 20 points ahead in the polls. Hes doing something right. Hes doing something right. Not the to win well, hes not the to win rutherglen, so. Its not not simply well, no, its not not simply not being the tories. It would be shrug. 20 points in the be a shrug. 20 points in the lead style leads a lead is blair style leads in a world where and i think this is important to understand all peoples in has been peoples hope in change has been beaten out of them. Theyve had a decade. This a terrible decade. And with this government basically decided government who basically decided in if we cant make in the end, if we cant make things well to things better, well try to persuade everybody nothing persuade everybody that nothing can and thats persuade everybody that nothing cireally and thats persuade everybody that nothing cireally difficult and thats persuade everybody that nothing cireally difficult situation. Hats persuade everybody that nothing cireally difficult situation to ts a really difficult situation to be opposition, because in be the opposition, because in government much government youve got so much power things persuade power to do things and persuade things. Here offers the things. I think here offers the safety and the stability. Now, safety and the stability. Now, theres nothing flashy about stability , but it reduces costs. Stability, but it reduces costs. It makes chris wants to come in on that. Is that not a risk, though, john . I john . I mean, you around with tony blair back in 1970, 2001, his big issue he always talked about was why he wasnt bolder when he came in. Starmer to me, hes almost tiptoeing into office, not doing a lot. I to not doing a lot. I mean, to say things he would reverse things like he would reverse rwanda elsewhere , rwanda this morning, elsewhere, he build 1. 5 million he wants to build 1. 5 million homes. Thats much than homes. Thats not much more than the government is not the current government is not the current government is not the so nervous the risk. Youre so nervous about this. The of about about this. The idea of the ming is carrying around the ming vase is carrying around number drops it, its number 10. If he drops it, its all he cant do anything. So the government arent even meeting their own housing targets. Housing targets. They abolished housing targets. They abolished housing targets up on targets. Theyve given up on housing mention of housing there. No mention of housing there. No mention of housing last week during conference one top conference yet. Its one the top issues about. Issues that people talk about. So that labour are so the fact that labour are committing , you know. Angie committing, you know. Angie rayner committing rayner and now keir committing to massive targets, to massive housing targets, thats really, really important for country for us and for the country to hear were that and hear that were doing that and the were in a world the thing is were in a world where promises have been made by governments , by the five prime governments, by the five Prime Ministers that weve had and then theyve been broken by the next Prime Minister or broken by the actual Prime Minister here is being really he will is being really clear. He will he a promise and then he will make a promise and then theyll deliver it. Hell theyll deliver it. So hell back the builders, not john. Just come on that let me just come in on that because there has been some criticism. The criticism. Wheres the opposition . Didnt opposition . You know, he didnt really the zero really react to the net zero climb dont really know climb down. We dont really know where he is. On with regard to some of his economic policies versus what jeremy hunt is going to announce autumn to announce in the autumn statement. Been a climb statement. Theres been a climb down of the private down on some of the private school seems to be school stuff, which seems to be the identifiable policy. The only identifiable policy. Wasnt a there wasnt a there wasnt a there wasnt a climb down. There wasnt a there wasnt a clirtheres1. There wasnt a there wasnt a clirtheres a climb down on theres a climb down on charitable status. Well, theyve watered it down, is being down, john. The vat is being levied. The vat is being levied. Thats what gets the money. Thats what gets you the money. A e is ten a e charitable status is ten years courts. Years in the courts. Then weve got one but then weve got one policy. Lets allow people policy. Lets allow more people to do you think to change sex. Do you think there loads of people in the there are loads of people in the red in this area saying, do red wall in this area saying, do you know what i want from the next labour minister . Next labour Prime Minister . I want people to change sex. Want more people to change sex. Tell you ill tell ill tell you what, ill tell you what. Ill tell you what people the wall, people people in the red wall, people in merseyside, people in london, People Scotland, they people in scotland, what they believe. The believe. They dont believe the unhappy made believe. They dont believe the unhajunhappy made believe. They dont believe the unhajunhappy by made believe. They dont believe the unhajunhappy by a made believe. They dont believe the unhajunhappy by a government. More unhappy by a government. And something about and theres something about the way the government approaches the the approach the trans issue and the approach to issue. It wants to to every issue. It wants to divide us against divide us and turn us against each what country each other and what our country needs of working needs is a decade of working together. All of us, to deal with the absolutely gigantic problems its problems we face, whether its Climate Transition or whether its productivity going its getting productivity going or it is improving our or whether it is improving our schools, our health schools, improving our health and might that trans some might argue that trans activists have been quite divisive that issue. Divisive on that issue. But lets move on to scotland, because, john, you are because, john, i know you are also former of staff to also former chief of staff to jim murphy when he was scottish labour the snp finished . No, the snp arent finished because theres going to be support for independence in scotland for a very long time. In my view itd be the wrong thing for scotland to do and i dont believe a second referendum happen. If it referendum will happen. If it did, the snp would lose again. Would scotland stay in the did, the snp would lose again. Woubuticotland stay in the did, the snp would lose again. Wou but the and stay in the did, the snp would lose again. Wou but the snp stay in the did, the snp would lose again. Wou but the snp have stay in the did, the snp would lose again. Wou but the snp have taken n the uk, but the snp have taken a beating. Yes. And the interesting thing about that, they concede that theyve they wont concede that theyve taken beating. Labours taken a beating. Labours majority was than the snp majority was larger than the snp vote. Thats right. Back to the vote. Thats right. Back to the thats pre pre referendum politics. Labour is dominant. You have to accept when the voters send you a message, youve got to go, we got it. Thats one of the reasons that keir starmer has taken labour on a journey. Look, the a journey. He said, look, the voters were to reject voters were right to reject jeremy corbyn. The voters in scotland were right reject scotland were right to reject the the snp dont the snp. If the snp dont listen, again and listen, theyll lose again and again again. So the labour again and again. So the labour can come in scotland and can come back in scotland and win labour back win seats. Labour can come back in parliament and in the Scottish Parliament and maybe administration, maybe form an administration, but the snp will still there. But the snp will still be there. Is scotland going to topper is scotland going to be difference for starmer be the difference for starmer between majority government . It means you must win less votes north in red votes in the north in the red wall to win. I mean 20 seats, 30 seats. Whats your forecast . John . I john . I think 20 seats in scotland would a brilliant result would be a brilliant result because swing we got at 20 because the swing we got at 20 is twice the swing that theres beenin is twice the swing that theres been in the opinion polls in scotland. If we got the 10, the 11 swing thats in the opinion polls, about 20in polls, wed pick up about 20in scotland. That changes that scotland. And that changes that changes nature politics. Changes the nature of politics. People who rikki neave people who support to vote for support the union to vote for a tory or labour candidate and not for not putting red and so for not putting red and blue. So what i is happening in what i think is happening in scotland in the rest of the scotland and in the rest of the country theyre looking at country is theyre looking at two governments, a tory government snp government two governments, a tory gowtheyre. Snp government two governments, a tory gowtheyre going,np government two governments, a tory gowtheyre going, whatsernment two governments, a tory gowtheyre going, whats the nent and theyre going, whats the best way to get these people out . So in england its lib dem or so in england its lib dem or labour and in scotland it is who is. Mainly labour. Therell is. Its mainly labour. Therell be where labour be some seats where labour voters vote voters in the north east vote for the tories and in the borders. So unionist voters are going vote for the best going to vote for the best candidate snp to candidate to beat the snp to send them a message because youve got a government, a tory government uk for 13 government in power in uk for 13 years, snp power for 16 years, snp in power for 16 years. The end, political years. In the end, political gravity asserts itself. I asked transport i asked the transport secretary mark harper, earlier whether the tories had given up on. I mean, thats what on scotland. I mean, thats what it that chap who it looks like. That chap who went the by election in went for the by election in rutherglen got 1000 odd votes. I mean deposit our scottish tories are going to be an oxymoron come 2024. Not an oxymoron. Thats a big word for the sunday morning. Jesus. Yes. Jesus. Yes. No , i think its the right no, i think its the right word, though. Well, im just you know, sometimes they say young tories an but we wouldnt an oxymoron, but we wouldnt necessarily agree with that. Scottish but scottish tories rutherglen tory till 64. Yes. When i was when i worked out there with for john different newspapers at the turn of century. John exactly. Of the century. John exactly. The then was, was the the big issue then was, was the poll tax. That rae that was poll tax. That was. Rae that was the reason why the tories haemorrhaged support and thats now raised, is now not, not really raised, is it . More the boris it . Its more i mean the Boris Johnson down like a cup of johnson went down like a cup of cold sick up there. I think sunak popular. Maybe sunak is more popular. Maybe maybe sunak, maybe the follower of sunak, whoever they lose, whoever that is, if they lose, could be better. The great, the great john curtice said about said about this. Tories on 15 in the tories are on 15 in scotland, but thats because theyre unpopular across the scotland, but thats because theyre of1popular across the scotland, but thats because theyre of theyular across the scotland, but thats because theyre of the country. ss the scotland, but thats because theyreof the country. If; the scotland, but thats because theyreof the country. If youre whole of the country. If youre on the uk, youre going to on 25 in the uk, youre going to have to be on 15in scotland and so be more so the sunak may be more palatable johnson. The palatable than johnson. The thing in the middle between thing is in the middle between johnson was truss and johnson and sunak was truss and truss has destroyed the trust with voters everywhere. And until you can get that until you can get over that moment that truss is moment and i think that truss is the new so its all about competence. Competence. Ac its competence. Ac its competence. And thats what thats why starmer untested untested starmer is untested, untested on competency. , but the competency. But but, but the tories clearly its funny, tories are clearly its funny, the government are the and the government are the risk and the government are the risk and the opposition are safety. The opposition are the safety. And thats where politics. Although lets just talk about who is considered about somebody who is considered about somebody who is considered a bit risky in the labour party. Angela goddess , Angela Rayner oh, the goddess, is john why do you say that . John why do you say that . John why do you say that . Because shes, which got her, sir. Shes got an appeal, right, that across politics. That reaches across politics. Yeah. She pass it. I wrote a piece for the another reformer papers philip crush going on here explaining and uranos appeal. Angie rayner is definitely a politician. You want to go down the pub with . Yeah. Wouldnt you want. Unlike keir starmer, you might keir, ive seen keir. I had a taxi driver from gb news once and he said i met that keir starmer. I met him in a pub, he knows his football. Hes good company. True. Like hes, hes so. But angie just like, hes so. But angie is just like, you look at her you know, you look at her and, you know, you look at her and, you know, you look at her and, you know, shes fun and theres so politicians but so few politicians i know, but shes to careful because shes got to be careful because theyre this whole safety. Theyre doing this whole safety. Thing. We dont want first thing. We dont want her going off at fringes and calling scumbags might calling tory scumbags you might for new for news channels. Well, we do want that for news. Yeah. Well, we do want that for neerah. 1h. Well, we do want that for neerah. You need some colour yeah. You need some colour and character. A mo and character. You need a mo mowlam. You need. You know you need peter man. Need you need a peter man. Somebody whos than somebody whos larger than life. And larger life. And shes larger than life. Your prescott, the new prescott. Yeah. No, no, she is. And obviously, literally, literally deputy prescott. Deputy leader like prescott. If shes Everybody Needs if shes going speaking later, going to be speaking later, i think, isnt 1120 today. Think, isnt she 1120 today. I think, isnt she 1120 today. I think thats what im hearing in my and ear is never wrong. So, angie, good. So, angie, good. And final word, Rachel Reeves. I mean, to be fair, shes been a bit of a silent assassin, bringing up the rear, adding competence the adding some competence to the operation. Loves her. Right . The city loves her. Right . The city loves her. Right . A lot her. This theres a lot loves her. This is curious. A last week, theres a line last week, though. Theres a line last week from sunak the from rishi sunak to the bloomberg lunch. He said, beware for will tolerate for labour. They will tolerate you. You. And thats you. But we love you. And thats what tories, thats the what the tories, thats the tories said. And so labour tolerate. Business is not a love thing. I did, i did. I did a dinner i did, i did. I did a dinner in the city a week ago at and it was, it was a room which had a trillion pounds under investment and they were all clear. Labour is government and they is the next government and they and trust and they trust, they trust rachel for her stable management of economy. And of the future economy. Okay. And thats thing that dont thats the thing that they dont see risk. See a risk. Final word base is rammed. Final word base is rammed. Mean gone are the cardigans i mean gone are the cardigans , corbyn evans wearing , the corbyn era. Evans wearing sharp gb news stuff. Sharp suits like gb news stuff. Tickets sold weve got more tickets sold to conference than any time in labour its the biggest attendance. Well, you heard it here first, john mcternan, Christopher Hope. Are the Christopher Hope. Gone are the cardigans corbyn era. Cardigans of the corbyn era. I think well that note think well end on that note now. Says here, ill be back now. It says here, ill be back at next at 930. Actually at next week at 930. Actually im going on holiday marbs im going on holiday to marbs with some my mummy mates, so with some of my mummy mates, so ill that. But ill be back after that. But somebody be covering for somebody will be covering for me. Good morning and welcome to sunday with Michael Portillo. A two hour sprint through arts, culture, politics and world affairs. We begin today with the shocking events unfolding in and around israel. Israelis in the around israel. Israelis in the south of the country woke up to find that towns have been infiltrated by Hamas Terrorists who unleashed a torrent of killings and kidnappings. Meanwhile thousands of rockets were israel. How were fired across israel. How were fired across israel. How were the Israeli Defence forces caught off guard . And what is the prospect now for that historic diplomatic deal between israel and saudi arabia . By israel and saudi arabia . By coincidence, a new film about golda meir, once israeli Prime Minister , recalls how israel was minister, recalls how israel was caught unawares exactly 50 years ago by the joint egyptian and syrian invasion on yom kippur in 1973, the movies screenwriter, nicholas martin, will join me in the studio. So eral weeks ago we reported on another corner of the middle east where armenians