Changing views on marriage and sexuality. Many, many other challenges too. During these and other periods of stress, especially over the last few centuries some have thought and argued the Catholic Church might become irrelevant. Disappear into the dust of history. My guess is says instead of being overwhelmed by modern times come the churches not only survived as it clearly has, but is actually key agent of change for the whole world. He is george whiteoak, catholic scholar and distinguished fellow with ethics policy centerpiece also wrote more than two dozen books and closing his latest the irony of catholic history how the church rediscovered itself and challenge the modern world to reform. George thank you for being here. Lets start with the book and pick this up right with the title. Whats ironic about the church, the churchs response. Whats ironic about it jerry, is a relationship that started with a lot of mutual head knocking. Vote tear, crying, crush the infini, folks hurling thunderbolts at maternity and all of its forms. Ironically, and i believe providentially over 200 years, resulted in the Catholic Church rediscovering the essential truth on itself, that its not an institution to be maintained, its a community of disciples in mission, and its primary purpose is evangelization. Its to convert the world. And thats a rediscovery. Gerry you say in the book, i think a lot of you would find this surprising and challenge about, but the 21st century the Catholic Church is more vital inconsequential that it was in the past nine or 50 years ago. But for a lot of people they would say they look at the challenges facing the church, they look at the declining churchgoing and observance, they look at some of the challenges churches have to deal with the last 20 to 30 years. And they say cannot really be true customer cows and more vital inconsequential today . John paul ii who died in 2005, was the most publicly consequential pope in 500 years. At least. He was the pivotal figure in the collapse of the european communism, not the only one to be sure, but played a pivotal role in that. He helped ignite democratic revolutions in latin america and east asia. Beyond the Public Impact of the church, there is the Phenomenal Growth of the Catholic Church, for example in subsaharan africa. There are now hundreds of millions of catholics where they were virtually none hundred to 200 years ago. The problems are real, the challenges are real, but the church is actually in the growth of business, and large parts of the world. Gerry for a lot of people, again the challenge of maternity particular for the church, for a church that is universal and eternal, and is rooted in the message of jesus christ 2000 years ago and the universal message of that, evolution and change progress as people like to call it, and the intrinsic challenge. How does that and the church has adapted and changed. You go through some of the great periods of Church Issues when they change. Most recently the vatican ii so if the church is accommodating to modern morays and ethics, and practices . How is that consistent with the idea of one eternal message. I think two things bear on that. One, the church has tried to figure out, has had to figure out how do you preach the message of the Lord Jesus Christ in new cultural circumstances from the beginning . When the when the church leaves the holy lands and goes into the classical world. And have to figure out how to talk to that world. When the church enters what we know is the middle ages, theres this thing called this new learning, has to figure out how to talk to that. Same with the renaissance, same after the reformation. So this question of how to respond to maternity and how to engage it in order to stand for it is in fact a very old question. I think whats different about today, is that the modern project believes that its selfsustaining and self creating. And with the Catholic Church at its best suggests is that there are enduring truths, built into the human condition that you had better take account of informing societies, political communities, economies, they are gonna serve genuine Human Flourishing and results in human happiness. Ultimately in the attitude. Gerry outside the church are inside the church, someone in the church who says what the church has to change. It has to adapt. Not just in ways of practical ways, but fundamental issues are these teachings, these big debates about contraception, abortion, gay rights, and marriage, and divorce, and the church in some parts of the world is making those accommodations if you can call it modernity. How is that working, hows that working out for the church . It hasnt worked out at all. An example, prime example is the church in germanspeaking world. German, austria, german parts of switzerland which has been living what i would call for 18 years, catholic rights. For the better part of five decades. Gerry sort of tolerating divorce, that type. Accommodate to the liberal progressive agenda. Put some smells and bells around it. And hope it works. It doesnt work. Gerry it doesnt work and then church dropping responsibility. I was speaking in munich this past staying in a parish of people 10000 are in the church but 200 go to mass on sunday. This is a collapse of catholic identity. And practice. And i think its due to the fact that catholic like is boring. There is nothing interesting and saying how little do i have to believe and how little do i have to do to stay inside the church . Thats an important question. Gerry that is important in renting a quick break but when we come back back out of talk what the volusia and of the church. On talk about whats public like in these changing times. Stay with us. Than you. You are my diamond. 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Gerry my guest is catholic scholar joan weigle. George tell us about the book how the church is changing, church is not embracing but actually changing. Would talk to moment ago about the role john paul ii and liberating Central Eastern europe from communism as we one example. In the course of this encounter, since the french revolution the Catholic Church developed a social doctrine or they talk about Society Economics culture, its rooted in a biblical view but which engages the modern quest for freedom, prosperity, and solidarity. And tries to put on the secure foundation. I think thats the greatest thing the church does for a late but a tea or postmodernity today. Its to say look there are truths built into each of us as individuals and into the human condition. Those take into account of and allow us to flourish, and allow us to live freedom notably rather than in this dumb down i did it my way, notion. Be nine we have to address the terrible scourge of child abuse which has been so, has unfortunately been so widespread to the standing of the church. Tell us first of all, how did that gets to be such a how did it become so extensive and why was the church so slow in responding to . And whats changing now . As a church finally getting on top of this . I can only speak to the american situation, to the u. S. I think that is the lonely actually have real numbers. Were talking about the disgusting and in criminal behavior of maybe 4 of the catholic clergy. Gerry but to be fair, the actual perpetrators, but there is a sense that why didnt the church either actually cover it up in some cases allowed it to go on. The institution failed. Without a doubt. This church institutionally failed in part because of the psychological industry, institutionally failed big saying we can fix these guys. And it turns out we we just there are people we just are not fixable. This was a huge failure of responsibility. I think, and i try to describe in the book that this is a moments of essential purification for the church. Because the church cannot propose a lot of countercultural ideas to the postmodern world, particularly that the ethics of human love. Unless it is seen to be living what it proclaims. Gerry you spoken and written positively about Saint John Paul ii. But there are those that think it was on his watch she could put on that were a lot of these failures occurred. Is his record, it was an extraordinary record in terms of changing the world and change the church. Is it tainted by the churchs failure on the child abuse . It is part of the picture without a doubt. But on the other hand as i described in the memoir of john paul ii a couple of years ago called lessons and hope, i went to rome in april 2002 to make sure that the pope was getting the information he needed to deal with us. And once he understood what was going on, he acted decisively as did then cardinal ratzinger. Its really one of the heroes of this unfortunate story. Another thing i think gary that has to be said about john paul ii is a great reformer of the priesthood. And once those reforms kicked in and the u. S. , and the late 80s an early 90s, the incidence of clerical sexual abuse drops dramatically. Gerry very quickly one of the puzzles are people inside and outside the church, you had john paul ii and Pope Benedict who is seen using nih uses labels but kind of conservative it emphasized traditional values and did not make significant reforms, changes or at depth patients. And then came on pope francis the same institution who seems to have a radically different approach. How is francis is changing the church . What he think its gonna go . I think if one looks around the world first the living parts of the Catholic Church, are the parts that are still in grace john paul ii and benedict the 16th, the interpreters and the vatican council. The dying parts of the church of these catholic like experiences that dont work. I dont think that pope francis wants to sell catholic light, but i think some of the initiatives hes taken have given encouragement to the dying catholic light forces in the Catholic Church. And thats a shame. Because he in many respects puts a compelling face on the church. And he is right to remind us that every time the church does notice something that has to explain whats the guess that stands behind the no. Not just the naysayers. Gerry thank you very much one more quick break and they were gonna talk about religion in modern america. Stay with us. Do you recall, not long ago we would walk on the sidewalk all around the wind blows we would only hold on to let go blow a kiss into the sun we need someone to lean on blow a kiss into the sun we needed somebody to lean on all we need is someone to lean on what are you doing back there, junior . Since were obviously lost, im rescheduling my Xfinity Customer Service appointment. Ah, relax. I got this. Which gps are you using anyway . A Little Something called instinct. Been using it for years. Yeah, thats what im afraid of. He knows exactly where were going. My whole body is a compass. Oh boy. The my account app makes todays Xfinity Customer Service simple, easy, awesome. Not my thing. Gerry and where with George Weigle and we decide not politics. What is the defining trend in american politics in the west politics in britain in much of europe is popular is him and verge of nationalism as people call. People talk about make american great again. In the universal church, or religion for a faith that teaches the importance of universal brotherhood and sisterhood, how does this, how does the church how does the Catholic Church deal with this new political sensation . It is scrambling at the moment. I think thats the fair statement. The Catholic Church has always honored patriotism, loyalty to ones country, devotion to ones national patrimony. I think where the church would try to draw line is to say that patriotism ought not express itself at the expense of others. Lets aim for general pluralism here in which multiple patriotisms work to influence each other. And thats what i think is actually going on in europe right now. And it might help, possibly, and increasingly bland mono tonal overbearing brussels iraq receipt learned not every poll once to be a belgian. And its okay. You can have a genuine pluralism of national experiences working together with in one economic units. And to some extent within one political unit. We used to call that federalism in the united states. G9 a National Politics here in the u. S. Are we becoming growing numbers of americans express they dont have any religious faith. Is that being reflected in our politics too . Are we becoming where democrats are becoming kind of a Godless Party and the republicans are becoming the traditional religious party . I think its hard to say at this particularly bizarre at this moment. I think its hard to say about what the Democratic Party and the Republican Party will be over time. It seems to me that for the past six, seven, or eight president ial cycles or maybe even longer than that going back to the early 70s, the question has not been was your denomination. Its been whats your degree of practice . Those who are in church once a week, maybe even more, skew heavily republican. Those who are never in church or in christian terms are christmas and easter believers, skew heavily democratic. And the scale slides in between. So i am constantly telling my friends in washington there is no such thing as a catholic vote. There is a practicing catholic vote which skews one way. There is a nominal catholic vote that skews the other way. In the scale slides in between. I do think it is becoming more and more that there are fewer and fewer serious religious thinkers who have a genuine impact on American Public life. My dear friend, may have been the last significant figure in shaping a christian response to American Public life. Now we have to hope that others are coming along. But when religious leaders mortgage themselves to a particular political party, a particular personality, their cash value if youll pardon the term diminishes dramatically. Gerry that is fascinating wish we had more time. The book is called the irony of catholic history how the church rediscovered itself and discuss challenge the modern world to deform. Up next the rarely use constitutional clauses coming to be than you. You are my diamond. For the diamond in your life, get up to 40 off storewide or get these one of a kind deals at the you are my diamond event. Exclusively at zales, the diamond store. At the you are my diamond event. Peyton, what abrad, welcome to peytonville. Whats this for . Song inspiration. I started in my garage, but nationwide protects so much i had to expand. Nationwide helps protect everything you see in here, brad. Every family, every business, every dream. See mrs. Hoffman . Nationwide protects her home and car, but also her dream of retiring to become a yoga instructor. Oh, they have backstories. Of course they do. Here, i got more to show you. Keep up, now. A little hustle. How did you find greatgrandmas recipe . Were related to them . Were portuguese . I thought we were hungarian . Grandpa, can you tell me the story again . Behind every question is a story waiting to be discovered. Gerry in the first 185 years of this countrys history, the constitutions impeachment clause, which lays out how president can remove from office, was exercise just once with Andrew Johnson in 1968. In the last 46 years, it is happened three times. Put another way, of the first 35 men to hold the office of president , one was the target of impeachment. Seating spirit of the last nine, three have met that fate. Of course this week donald trump is made that latest. Whatever you think about the specific charges against the president , its hard to resist the conclusion that this is becoming a routine feature of the political battlefield. In my are hyper partisan age, both parties its not enough to simply oppose the other side but you have to delegitimize them, deny the rights even hold the office. Its not with the founders intended is surely not the recipe for a healthy and functioning system. But enough of all that. Its christmas after also let me wish you and your family the very happiest of holiday seasons. Ma the coming days, whatever your current political mood be merry and bright. Thats for us this week. For the latest show updates be sure to follow me on twitter Instagram Emily back next week we look back at 2019 and look ahead at 2020. With my colleagues right here on the wall street journal at ou for joining us. Jack welcome to barrons roundtable with the sharpest minds on roundtable meeting to get behind the h