That later the peoples who did all this gave us a state as a reward, or maybe if they were burned for 6 million and 12, so the state would be made bigger for the territory, you understand that it is complete nonsense, the state appeared because people for it, people who wanted a state, representatives of the jewish people fought for it both before the holocaust and after the holocaust, and people from those representatives of the jewish people whom the state was unnecessary, national, they continued to live in other states, those that were not burned, of course, so this is all absolutely clear to me. Regarding the danger of war, i dont analyze now at all from the point of view of the rise of identity, how did people understand something, because people, when the escalation begins, they understand, and when the aggravation subsides, they stop understanding like a hedgehog, because reactive National Consciousness is always a temporary National Consciousness, and we can safely go to the east and see what language is actually spoken in odessa or kharkiv, the one how do we behave, how they talk, so as not to create illusions for themselves, and we have another danger, that if this continues for a long time by pushing people from the east and south to the center and west, as is the case in russias plans, because it destroys everything there, as yuriy rightly said, we will simply lose galicia, then they will also speak russian , because the majority of the population will be russianspeaking, where will these larger populations go, here and think that a small number of ukrainians is a large number ukrainians, well, im sorry, it wasnt like that during the soviet union, during the soviet union, we remember how much ukrainian was spoken on the streets, not even in kyiv, lviv, already in the last decades, and how dangerous it was from the point of view of our linguistic culture, and by the way, i have to say that the war is the first period in my life when i hear the russian language on the streets of frankivska and ternopil, i have heard it before in lviv, in ternopil never in never heard of it, well, you can certainly look at it positively. But im just saying it as it is, the next point that seems to me quite dangerous, our salvation was that we finally get rid of survival values, this society, absolutely right, like any colonial society, has always lived by values survival, because he was forced to do so, and we began to build a state in which people eventually began to live, and when people begin to live, you can talk with it about some real humanitarian problems, historical problems, about who they are. There really is, there is an evolution of a person who already lives and thinks about the future of his children, grandchildren, how to raise them, what kind of education to give them, who they will be, this is a longer process, of course, but it is the right process, and now we are back to survival values, you die today and i die tomorrow, and what we see today even on social media when we hear from people why you live and people die around the front under bombardment. And you live here and walk the streets, you must understand that this is just a real reaction to what is happening in ukraine, because war is always there, some live, others die, some are mobilized, others abroad, some earn big money, because they are in those businesses that bring money during the war, others lose everything, and so it will continue, and it must be understood that the values survival is very dangerous. And this, of course, will delay the possibility of normal development of the ukrainian state for years after the war, if it ends again during our conscious life, and one more point, which must also be understood as dangerous, is what is the final solution to the ukrainian issue, which the russians are talking about, can it is natural to believe that this is the destruction of ukrainian statehood , the ukrainian people, that he did not live here, but this is ideal for the russians, whether they will be able to achieve something or not, they do not know, they they try, they always try, but for them there is another moment, not so critical, look at what happened before the partition of poland, the polishlithuanian commonwealth was a competing state. With the muscovite empire for geopolitical influence and population size, civilizational contribution, and position in europe, it was such a powerful state between the west and the east, after the partition of poland, even the restoration of its independence did not turn poland into such a country, it is just an average a statistical european state in terms of size and population, when it was getting a little smaller moreover, russia reduced it there again, as it was before the second world war. Territorial in terms of population as well, and now poland is not a competitor of russia and , by and large, not a competitor of germany and france, it can be such a competitor that unites the Central European countries there, but for this it needs ukraine, and ukraine in the soviet union, it was actually the second union republic, i am not saying in the russian empire, in terms of population, civilizational potential, cultural alternatives. By economy because such a number of people, look, the holodomor is the first step to the destruction of such ukrainian opportunities, ukraine was already smaller, but still too big to play an alternative in russia, in 1990, as you remember, the union center lost the Russian Federation as the main unionforming country in connection with the Gorbachev Yeltsin conflict, and relied on ukraine, as it sounds strange to us, as a republic. Which can unite around itself the idea of a renewed union for ukraine, because a large number population with which we will come out of this war, if we are now talking about 2530 , the 30 million population that will remain with us, a country smaller than the population of poland, a country somewhere between poland and slovakia, this is our future real size and capabilities , moreover, a country that may have a large territory that it will not be able to. master, and therefore we will have to, like germany or some other country after the second world war, import a huge amount of another population in order to develop the economy, if we will have such at all chance, there is no war on the territory of russia, and there is no such decrease in population as a result of the war, there are demographic problems, but russia remains a country under 140 million, well, it will be under 120, 120 by 20, and thus what russia has already achieved in this war , it means that ukraine has ceased to be a civilizational rival for her. Ukraine has become itself, but in kilograms , a civilizational competitor of russia, if russia does not disintegrate, and why would it matter to us that it somehow happened, but injustice triumphs in war, and force, that too you have to understand, but this is also an important point, we have to think about ourselves, how we will exist in such a weight, because we are not used to this, we know, it is like an athlete who is used to having, lifting a weight of 150, there, i i dont know, but you can. Only 50, also an athlete, also looks good, but this is a different league, so we have to think about what role we will play in central europe, we have to look for ways to our neighbors from poland, hungary, the Czech Republic , slovakia, because Central European countries can only dream together, no no to pretend, but to dream of a real geopolitical alternative of east and west, and this is also an important thing, we do not dream about it, we do not think about it, because it seems to us that after the war, we will be the same as we were before the war, not before the war will never be, prewar ukraine has disappeared forever, no one will ever see it, we will have a country with a different population, with a different quality of population, for a long time, unfortunately, worse, from an unknown territory, but if we restore our entire territory with a huge territorial empty, with a new one the nonukrainian population, which we dont even know where it will be from, not from russia, now about but from where it will be, im not saying, something , thank god, but its unknown how ukrainians in general, ukrainians are not used to accepting other populations, you know, large groups nonreligious population into its own society, this is the last of the closed countries in europe, there poland can only compare with us, and it is absolutely, it will be just a phantasmagoric explosion, which we cannot even imagine, how society will react to it, and deeply traumatized by war give god, so that it is not separated, because again, the values of survival, survival always create separation in society according to completely different categories than the ones we are used to, not by language, not by national, but by social, and this is also something that will need to be prevented, because the social disappointment in society will be devastating, you cannot even imagine the scale, and this must be thought about, even if the war ends in 10 years, it must be thought about today, and it may happen that it will not end in 10 years, but will end next year. Relatively speaking, not at all the way we would like it to end, and we need to prepare for this, because this is a society that believes justice if injustice is met face to face. Historical, accepted injustice. The shock may be of such a level that we will all have to bring our country out of this state with our joint efforts and remember the main values that we have to defend with you. The main value is the ukrainian state, and the main value is ukrainian people on ukrainian land. This is what we have to preserve despite all these problems that i mentioned, and of course, the ukrainian state and the ukrainian people have. To accept the need to preserve International Law and territorial integrity of ukraine, as such an important moment of our future selfawareness, which will help us survive in difficult times. Thank you. Mr. Yosif, i saw that you took notes there during the speech of all our speakers, and i think that the microphone is working, yes, it works, one, two, three, it works, and actually, you already have reflections about what the previous speakers said, reflect what you think about it, thank the organizers for such a great opportunity to meet and talk, i will try, i will try to follow the announced title. That war is like a trigger for national selfdiscovery. As a physicist by education , i know well what a trigger is . If its simple, then its a device, if its more complicated, its a system that has two stable positions, one and the other. In order to bring out, to transfer this system from one stable position to another, a signal is needed, to consider war as a signal, war is always changes reality, especially such a cruel war, which we faced both 10 years ago and now. Therefore, it is difficult for me to consider the war as a trigger, but the war is a very important factor in our lives and in the changes that happen to us. I would rather say war. It is a catalyst, it accelerates certain processes, war is a separation, a sharp separation, that is, from the world in which we lived, with half and half shadows, with the half world, there are many transitions, we find ourselves in times of war, in a black and white world , this is us, this is ours, and this our enemies, this is a simplified view, it helps us to survive, it helps us to unite, but not everything is so simple, it is only simple at first glance, i agree with the rich man vitaly, and i also think that we want to see something good in the war, this name suggests that the war will bring at least something, at least a change in our national selfknowledge. Well, why do we do this, i understand that we take the desired for granted, we would like it, but what did we do these 32 years, what did we do before that in our history, did we not engage in selfdiscovery, engaged in in a certain way, it can be said that some part of our society, you can talk, would have been preparing for this war for all 32 years. I even make such a sad joke about myself, about our organization , that we have been preparing for this war for 32 years, so there was no shock, no trigger, we immediately got involved in what, according to our calculations, 1315 million of the population of ukraine got involved, is that a lot or is it it is not enough to say that these 13 million, 15 arose only because the war began, no, it accumulated in us throughout our history, and especially quickly, these traits that form a new ukrainian, civil, political identity and even civilizational identity, they accumulated throughout history. It is important to us how many of us are able to sacrifice our time, our money, our attention, our health, our. Life for the sake of ukraine. Here is what is important, whether it is enough to defeat russia as we see it in the ideal , that is, to destroy its teachings, as it was with germany and japan during the second world war, because only such a defeated russia will give us peace on the eastern border , because it will be the hope that one day there will be, well, with certain efforts of the whole world, at least a few democratic states in 50100 years, and peace is a neighborhood with democratic states. Russia as it is today. With such borders, with such a history, with such an imperial identity, it is not capable of turning into a democratic country , by definition, i have been dealing with the issue of identity for 20 years, i feel it, incapable and all, no matter how much we dream of it, we have discussions with the remnants russian dissidents who believe that it is possible to preserve the empire and do its democratic, this is absurd. From the point of view of history this is absurd, thus we are forced to live in the real world. Vitaliy said about it, war is nothing positive, it is dirt, it is blood, it is death, it is blood, and one should not look for anything positive in it, one should endure, win and start rebuilding the country with very sad consequences, economist. Territorial, mental and so on , this is what we must prepare for, and the responsible politicians we have would tell us about it every day, what awaits us, hard work, this is what the european identity is built on, to which we strive, that life is work, such hard work, yes, because this is dignity. Of a person to work, get results, protect his home, his family, what was the trigger, we are not mature yet, so that all of us, i am not talking about 100 , i am not saying that i am like that, i operate with such a term as National Consensus, i. E. 80 share similar ideas about the countries past, present and future. They may have political diversities, but they share common ideas. Vitaly gave an example israel, in israel, despite the big political mess, the ideological one is different, there is such a consensus. So now we see, when such a misfortune happened in israel, hundreds of thousands of israelis living abroad return to defend the country. When 8 Million People left ukraine last year, who were they, ordinary people, but they chose what vitaliy calls survival values, how many of them did we have, i suspect that more than half of the country, for those who are interested, look at the research of ronald engelhart, an american sociologist, and you you will see that ukraine is still in the zone of survival values. And this war, unfortunately, will not change, because it can only be changed through evolution, with that hard work, patience , what we have to learn, that is how we change during the war, not faster, just the polarization has passed, those who were in this gray area, those who lived by survival values, some of them have war. Caused a Certain National impulse to protect oneself, to protect ones family, to protect ones village, ones city, ukraine from aggression, many of them there was nothing, there are no sociological studies, because what the studies say today is that 90 want the victory of ukraine, and why not, but this is not what you should ask and it is not what you should investigate, how many of them are ready to eat. even if hour a day to help the army, and we, if there was such a study , we saw that these are the same, here are 13 million, of civil society, volunteering, that volunteering is inherent in ukrainian traits, it was born thanks to this complex history, all nations have such traits, thus it is a civilizational trait. When everything is more and more people in the country feel the need to help not only themselves and their families, but to help the country, and their Critical Mass is already approaching, otti. The 13 million im talking about is about 30 of the population, its enough to stop the enemy, but unfortunately it s not enough for a victory, but for such a devastating, especially a victory, for this it is necessary to unite the whole world in order to protect russia, but we must state that we have come a long way in 30 years, that we were able to stop russia with those who went from the maidans to. Back in the 14th year, if you ask me what a trigger is, i would rather call it, if i use this term at all, i would call it the death of the heavenly hundred, it was for me, it was a trigger, it drew a line between the past and the future of ukraine. I then expressed that day on february 20 on ictv that. In this place where you and i live, which we love, pandoras box has been opened, and evil has come out into the world, with this shooting, this box has been opened, evil has come out into the world and it will take many years to drive it back, and now 30 of the population is doing it, driving this evil back, but it is still not enough to drive back, we need to continue this development is bringing to a National Consensus only evolutionary, the war has accelerated it a little, but is it enough for this, when there will be 80 of us, we will not be afraid of anything, we have nothing to fear, because not a single animal is near us it will not help, because such a country will exist and we must move the country to such a National Consensus with every step we take. And this is not a trigger, it is an evolution, and we put all our strength and desire into this evolution, to accelerate the onset of this moment when we will be afraid to be touched by any aggressors. Thank you, we have a little more than 5 minutes left, actually, based on the phrase of mr. Yosif, that when we have 80 , i will ask you for a minute each, according to your feelings. Based on your activities, when we can become those 80 , just a minute , mr. Gennady, lets start with you, i am sure that there is already a Critical Mass in ukraine, i am not sure that 80 is what we have pra, well, we can aspire, is it realistic, but the Critical Mass that already exists, it seems to me, is quite good, it does work, and in the world. Ukraine, well we, at least in the west, are perceived very positively, in america the slogan is quite popular, b brave like ukraine, be brave, like ukraine, of course, somewhere in africa we can see, in countries where rebellions took place, and the population comes out with russian flags and says putin, come, these are just the places for e. Beautiful maskals, but ukrainians think of the world that the world should support ukrainians because they aspire to something very high and good, while in reality the world supports ukrainians because they resist, because they fight, and ukrainians in this sense are no better than africans, indians or popois, ukrainians are no better than popois, in which ukrainians are distinguished by the fact that they allow themselves. With those resources that exist and are asking for help, emphasizing the universality of their struggle, and all this is what ukraine must continue to do, mr. Yury, there is too little time to hold a fullfledged discussion, but i do not completely agree with the honorable colleagues in what i would say is an average between pessimistic and realistic the approach they profess, because i am perhaps too optimistic. But even at the front, even in very difficult days , we are concerned about the percentage of ukrainians who will consider themselves responsible citizens of this state, this is a very important thing, responsible citizens, depends on whether the ukrainian state will remain on the political map of the world, i keep reminding you that this issue is not resolved, that the ukrainian state, under what is happening now, can completely calmly disappear, as if it never happened and it already happened and our main task is to prevent this, and it depends not only on us, i would say not entirely on us, because the Ukrainian Army only creates the basis for a political. Solution to the problem, and it can all perish, but there is no political solution will be, so it is important for us to fight for a political solution, the ukrainian state can survive only as part of the civilized world, only as a part of the north atlantic union, only as part of the european union, only as a part that will be under the Nuclear Umbrella of the civilized world, in other in the case of the ukrainian state, this must also be clearly understood, there are no prospects for civilization, because we are fighting the Largest Nuclear power of the modern world, which is equal only to the United States in the ability to destroy humanity, and everyone knows this very well, and therefore we need to fight for so that we end up where we should be, in europe, in the west, and remember that the people who are dying today at the front are not dying for territorial integrity as such, but precisely for this, because it is a matter of , will the ukrainian people in in the future, whether it will otherwise be simply an ethnographic group of the russian people, that is what we are talking about, everything else. These are secondary things that can be solved, and they can not be solved, but the preservation of the ukrainian people and the ukrainian state, this is the first reason that we should always talk about, again, looking at any weather conditions, thats all, mr. Yosif, mr. Yuri, im just before the start, i drank coffee here with pleasure, mr. Yosif, but we have one minute, am i an optimist, or who . I we act as experts, i then on the terrible day of february 20, 2014, on the day of the shooting, i said, an expert has no right to be an optimist, he must be a realist, build a system, show everyone, first of all to the people, and then to the authorities, the real picture of the world, this is the experts task , there is no. Expert task to be an optimist, for this there are lyricists , philosophers, writers, they have their own role, even, even politicians, they then come to power and rub all the optimism on the heads of their voters, politicians are Something Else when they ask me whether ukraine is in danger authoritarianism, i say no, ukraine is not capable of becoming an authoritarian state, and populism threatens us, because populism has already been realized, in the last elections we voted, well, not all, because those who did not vote here, for populists. Gentlemen, as always the most interesting thing, at the end we have one minute, the last, the last sentence, i want us, i do not pretend to be the truth, i have my own view on history, on what is around us, over the last year, this is mine conviction, with the pure imperialist war, which began right then 10 years ago after the return of ukraine to the empire, this war has turned into an intercivilizational one, on our boss there are 54 democratic countries on that boss 10 rogues, we have to finish, and the democratic world will not let us lose this war, but unfortunately, not a democratic one, will not let russia lose this war, we must understand it, prepare for a long, difficult war. Thank you, thank you for participating, thanks to carpathians, discussion, we are watched on espresso, thank you for this broadcast. Also thank you for your comments that appear under it, thank you to all participants who today our sponsors were the Ukrainian Cultural foundation and the international revival fund, as well as