Support ukraine, this is the majority, fortunately, but there are people who are also critical of ukraine and help for ukraine and so on. Well, these are mostly people who are either very left or very right, including countries full of people like him. And they constantly express their opinions , you see. The same people are in the pentagon and other countries. Again , the majority are people who support ukraine, but i, too, and others who are not quite so that the very fact that such a thing appeared in your donbas , a journalist wrote about it. I am not entirely convinced that this is precisely the reason for some special excitement. But of course it appeared in washington, a very authoritative newspaper , their sources are there are some unknown people there, or maybe you are in some observational circles. And this simply shows that despite what i just said, there is a current in america, there are people who are convinced that ukraine is still too far away, it is no less to give america must less to give weapons, etc. And of course they have their arguments and their logic. I personally am not convinced by logic. It seems to me that most soberminded people are not convinced either, but they exist and they influence to one degree or another. Maybe they are political decisions, but at least they are useful for the disk rhetoric on issues that seem to be unimportant and in ukraine you have to take them seriously, but of course you shouldnt panic because its quite possible that its just some people who have doubts said something and it doesnt necessarily reflect that in the end the opinion of either biden or his cabinet in general. By the way, regarding the leader of one of the currents against ukraine and support for our state , trump, his lawyers are now trying to move the ships over the expresident of the usa to 2026, they say, lets hold elections and then we will condemn trump. However, the prosecution is just right on the contrary, he is going to complete this process before the elections by january 2, 2024, even they want to start after the holiday holidays, rather, from january 2, 224th , right after the holidays, to start considering the cases on the merits, alexander, does biden have now is a chance to avoid a Court Verdict before the election. Yes, of course, trump, you know, it is very possible, dont forget that we are talking about four processes, not only about hours, they are at Different Levels of seriousness, those concerning his behavior in your tony and in the state of george are the most serious and they have just started talking about it there. So, do you understand when it all starts, when you, when it ends. This is unknown to anyone. I read recently, er, that in such court processes, er, on average, they last for some 18 up to 18 months well, approximately 15 to 18 months, because one side constantly demands something from the other, too well, it stretches over quite a long time, well, imagine that it will be like this with one or all of those processes that have just started, it is very possible that they will come the verdicts are either for or against trump just at the beginning, and maybe even in the middle of 2025, this means that he will have the opportunity to make such a persecuted dissident of himself. And against people who he is supported, this is the first thing, so the very fact of such processes can even help him to achieve , you know. This is a nightmare scenario, lets say trump becomes president , most people believe that this will not happen, but this life was considered a harrow , and therefore he can become president , and in a few weeks after the inauguration at the beginning of the 25th year may come to court may come Court Decisions eh and in which he will be guilty and then what then even make the president a criminal eh and of course it also has a bad effect on ukrainian issues because during the company that has already started and which continues until november of next year, ukraine will become an important topic. In some bad light, the democrats will defend themselves, on the one hand, it will be good for ukraine, because it will finally be at the top of the lakes, on the other hand, as you can imagine, the truths and critics will emphasize well, there is only one thing that is not so antifinnish. For the average american, they will rather play on the topic that ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the world and that it was like that, is like that, and will be like that. Why then should we defend the corruption of ukrainian oligarchs politicians, etc. , and this is a very important point for ukraine. First, it has to prove that it is fighting corruption, and secondly, it has to deploy its pr to convince people that the situation is really changing, maybe not so quickly, maybe not so radically, maybe not as much as it is desirable, but it is changing, that ukraine is moving in the dash is an interesting phenomenon. By the way, in ukraine, if a politician is opened against him, even more so in criminal proceedings, his rating drops, and in the states it goes up in the case of trump, and his rating only increases. Do you understand, this is just proof of that to what extent is American Society used by people who support trump, it is approximately 1520 of the population, maybe even a little more, they absolutely do not trust any institutions of the existing istobridgment, either among the snakes or in washington or in the government , they absolutely did not trust them they burn up and well, and here it is hard to imagine how they do not trust who at the same time were interpreting any step something would take it and the headquarters against trump condemned and criticized wrote but said something it is always then interpreted as a fan of some kind of hatred, if only because of what is wrong with them, what is wrong with those leftwing liberals, or whatever you want to call them, that it is completely impossible to work with them, that they are washing trump, that they want to persecute him, that they are even people who support trump, and so on. Well, of course , the same can be said about people do not trust the leftliberal side of the liberal side of the two aspects, they do not trust the absolute right, here it must be said that there is not the slightest conversation, and that is his small danger for america, because if trump wins, his people will come to power, if he has to play, then he would people are watching, it is possible to repeat the capture of the capitol yes, there is absolutely such a risk and i would not like to see this again, how democracy is destroyed, and mr. Oleksandr thank you oleksandr motili, 40, a political scientist , a professor, the address of the university of the United States was with us as a line of communication, now we will have a pause, after which we will join to the air in italy portnikova will comment on the most important events of the week and what do you think about lacalut fix reliably fixes me, my dentist advised me that food particles do not get under the prosthesis and the price is good the right choice for my pension new cream for extrastrong fixation of dentures and healthy gums so your choice fix meet the novelty cheap packaging 70 grams turn it on good when everything is as you want click and you are in the world of the maldives click and around the universe of cinema and then what you need megogo turn on hundreds of channels in thousands of movies and sports malyshko hurts photo from earache 20 in pharmacies the traveler of gangs and savings war in ukraine the main topic for ukrainians victory and losses analysis and forecasts politics and geopolitics serhiy will talk about all this rudenko and the guests of his program, people who have information and shape public opinion, people who defend ukraine and create the future, the main and interesting thing in the program is the verdict of Serhiy Rudenko from monday to friday at 20 00, repeat at 12 10 aaa and defender defender, the saturday Political ClubProgram Continues , im anzhelika sezonenko, and shes joining us via video link, Vitaly Portnikov , im glad to see you, vitaliy, im sad here without you, everyone, you see, technologies, as always, allow us to make real television, lets discuss it was an interesting week full of events, but more various statements, we start with a scandalous statement from the chief of staff of the secretary general of the alliance, stian jensen , that ukraine can allegedly cede territory to russia in exchange for membership in nato, and mr. Vitaly, i remember that one of these options they expressed concern that we might be inclined to do this. However, the publication allegedly writes that even other diplomats from the alliance were in shock. Why did he even allow himself to make such a statement . What do you think was the first time . I want to start at the beginning of our conversation to express our sincere condolences to all our viewers in chernihiv who are still experiencing such a tragic day and this tragic day once again reminds us that ukraine must become a member of the north Atlantic Union, that the security of ukrainian citizens depends primarily on that, ukraine will receive a reliable umbrella from other countries of the civilized world in otherwise, we should be aware that missile attacks on ukrainian territory will continue even if the armed forces of ukraine manage to reach the state borders of our country and restore the territorial integrity of ukraine. It seems to me that everyone perfectly understands that the territorial integrity of security will lead to the decline and tragedy of the ukrainian state to the lack of investment in the blocked ports and the missing air space, and no one wants this because ukraine after the hostilities will eventually end whatever it is, it must be a country capable of development until the restoration of this entire ruin into which our country was turned by the russian occupier, and here the question arises. There may be a formula, and it seems to me that the formula for joining ukraine to nato must, firstly, correspond to the National Interests of ukraine, and secondly, correspond to International Law, and from the point of view of International Law, donetsk luhansk , kherson, zaporizhzhia region of ukraine and the autonomous republic of crimea together with sevastopol are an integral part of the territory of ukraine, no one except the Russian Federation itself and some countries that try to sing along to Vladimir Putin are considered angelica that this territory is the territory of russia therefore, the question arises, what does it mean to give up if ukraine gives up its own territories from the point of view of International Law . In this way, ukraine becomes an ally of the Russian Federation, an ally of the aggressor. It says so. There is some desire to create an independent state, we see such situations. They occur in International Law , and then when one state simply wants to stupidly occupy the territory of another and demands from the other states. So that this state is recognized. When putin talks about crimea, he often refers to donbas. He refers to the experience of kosovo. You see, the west has already decided that kosovo can be an independent state. Why cant i . Th of the Un International court of justice, which recorded that the republic of serbia committed genocide on the territory of kosovo, about a completely different story albanians live in kosovo and albanians live in albania, and of course it would be completely natural for the union of two albanian states into one. But the International Community said no. You dont even want to live together with the serbs, but albania cannot annex the territory of serbia and we will not help albania here, even if it expressed such a desire, and nobody in albania ever said that it should be done, they said that kosovars have the right to property, sovereignty to protect their rights, but albania has never expressed a desire to annex this territory simply because there, approximately 95 percent of the population there are albanians and russia annexes a territory with a predominantly ukrainian population, because it is worth recalling that the kherson , zaporizhzhia, luhansk, and donetsk regions of ukraine are regions with a predominantly ukrainian population in the autonomous republic of crimea. Of the tatar people it was restored by the decision of the presidium of the Verkhovna Rada of the soviet Union Crimean Tatar autonomy itself and heres a miracle the una federation made a decision on the annexation of the region nobody nothing i didnt ask anything special, besides, immediately after the annexation of this territory, which is still called the republic in russia, terrible repressions began against the Indigenous Peoples of ukraine. So the question arises , what did the head of the secretary of state mean at that time . He already knows exactly what International Law is. I think that after all we met with a rather strange situation when a person who is not a public politician expresses some opinions as she is used to discussing them with her colleagues at work without even realizing that this may have such resonance ot imagine the cities arendal ot tell me honestly, did you know about such a city before a long time ago ot few who knows about this city in the south of norway, a small city very pleasant very cozy but not like in the center of International Attention there are security conferences on various i wonder how a huge number of european cities do it in the summer, and of course the norwegians can invite norwegians who hold High International positions to this conference. They come home, they relax there, the beautiful climate of norway in the summer is wonderful, you know, it is simply one of the best places in europe. And what will happen with global warming, angelika , after the war, you and i will go to the south of norway by ourselves, because there will be nowhere else to get to normally rest what do you need, its cold, the weather is not bad there, its good there, its somewhere around 2324, 25 in the summer well , its just that if youre a norwegian, you re generally pleasant in the summer, if you remember what winter is like in norway and heres a person who relaxed sit down at this conference and share some thoughts. Well, we think that this is some kind of signal. But this is more likely not a signal, it is a sign of relaxation and forgets that we all live in a glass house, here we are now talking to you and we think that if we Say Something in ukrainian , about some country language. No one will even find out there, and then our colleagues from the site will decipher it, make it news, and someone with google translator will translate this news , relatively speaking, from ukrainian to swahili, and there will be a scandal in some country that we are not talking about at all they didnt even think that they would Pay Attention to our words, and you and i dont even work in nato. Imagine that president vitaliyu is a diplomat. Of course , he is a diplomat. In the context, i would say that ukraine will join nato in any case. This is very important. If it frees its territory, it will join nato. If it does not free its territory, it will also join nato. Why . Because we do not want this war to be repeated, and by the way, when general the secretary of nato himself came to arendal, he basically said that we should be with ukraine both in grief and in joy. I think that this is a very important moment because i always say listen, be with the winner, you dont need a great mind, Everyone Wants to be with er, the winner. And you. Try to be close to the one who fails. This is a true friend. And lets say earlier, the secretary general of nato said that joining nato as a condition for ukraine should be its victory. I didnt like it. Im for the victory of ukraine. I believe that ukraine has win this one exhausting struggle with the Russian Federation, how much time was needed to achieve this victory, but i believe that joining nato is not connected with victory, but with security, and that the north Atlantic Union should make a decision on the euroatlantic integration of ukraine in case of any development of events in the russianukrainian wars, war is a complex story, in war, there can be negotiations in war, there can be, there can be parasky, but there must be a constant not directly related to the war, this is the euroatlantic integration of ukraine without this euroatlantic integration the citizens of ukraine should not hope for security in the 20 years of our millennium, this must be clearly understood, this must be understood , and i did not see a tragedy in these words and in the way that mr. I later justified myself and in what the secretary general of nato said, i saw the main trend that in brussels are beginning to realize that there is no need to connect ukraines euroatlantic integration and ukraines victory in the war, these should be parallel processes, but integration and european mr. Vitaliy somehow looks like it will be faster because it does not include a security component. And you said about security, you are the very component. And you know marriage, you compared it to an oath, yes and above and in joy, so an oath and above and in joy only when an official marriage. Not even civilian yet, but i hope that we can count on the fact that in washington, the price itself is there , at least we receive an invitation to the alliance, if we receive an invitation to the alliance, this is the road to some security guarantees, Real Security guarantees from the United States, from others i believe that the nato countries that have Nuclear Weapons are arsene. By the way, joining nato is much more shortterm, and i would say that it is a priority thing than the negotiations on the European Union. As a rule , 1015 years pass from the moment the negotiations start to the end of the negotiations. I hope that ukraine will be able to overcome this distance at a faster pace, but it will still take 6 to 8 years for the loan. If we do not fulfill these conditions, this candidate status can be revoked, this is a conditional candidate status, because in fact, if it were not for the war with us, it would be like georgia, conditions would be imposed on us, and until the results according to these conditions are provided, we would not receive candidate status, they went to meet us precisely because ukrainians are currently going through one of the most dramatic and difficult moments in the history of their country, but this does not mean that negotiations will begin before the conditions of the European Union are fully fulfilled, so god forbid that they begin in the coming years, but the houses with at the moment, the negotiations will take another 68 years. I think we will set and lets not forget how difficult the conditions of the neighboring states will be. There is no need for illusions, and poland and hungary, and possibly other states neighboring us, are using the negotiation process in order to set such conditions for the ukrainians to fulfill. What do i mean by political conditions . Historical memory is education. What will the years of political turmoil go by . Are we still waiting for such moments for ukraine itself that we dont need to think about even during the war . So lets be to believe that we will become members of the European Union in 2000 2. 35 or earlier is a great prospect, but we should already have been in nato for 10 years by that time. Negotiations. Does this indicate that if they start . Lets say so , mr. Vitaly, this indicates that we have fulfilled some of the requirements. From the fulfillment of the conditions from to the beginning of the victories, we can simply fulfill this condition by the end of the year, maybe he hopes for it from the direct, what about european integration, i would only be in favor of what we heard. Ok, lets discuss mr. Vitaliy another statement and from the prc. Yes, they said that no give ukraine weapons and then the war will end sooner. Well, this is not the first time, of course, but to vitaly , they do not change their position and lets say. Negotiating table it seems to me that the peoples republic of china has voiced a similar position almost from the first days after the start of the war and from the first days after the start of the war in beijing they blame the fact that the war continues , not russia, but the west for some reason, and from the first days after the start of the war in the peoples republic of china they emphasize that it is necessary to Pay Attention to the russian concern about the security of this country, that is, they are trying to justify the actions of the Russian Federation against our country by the fact that the Russian Federation is concerned about our euroatlantic integration and i dont see anything special here, because the chinese have always not hidden their strategic relations with the Russian Federation, because they are interested in the fact that the Russian Federation, with its victory over ukraine and the destruction of our state, will embarrass the west. United by one understanding that dictatorships must defeat democracies and establish their agenda in this world, the destruction of ukraine, the recognition of ukrainians from their lands, this is a necessary condition for this victory of the dictatorship because if ukraine is destroyed and if its territory is annexed to russia, china can with a light heart begin to resolve the taiwan issue, and i really hope that this will not happen, because we have to understand one more important thing, the people who are engaged in this, who sincerely want to be in moscow lets say the arrival of the Russian Federation on the border of the Russian Soviet Union in 1991, and in beijing the solution to the taiwan issue, these people are no longer young, and Vladimir Putin and xi jinping are already 70 years old, and they understand that they need to solve the problem the destruction of their enemies in the near future. Because every new year tactically proves to them that they will no longer be able to plan their plans for a Long Distance simply by itself, i would say that nature puts an end to their intentions and therefore of course Everyone Needs the russianukrainian war to end as soon as possible because if it drags on and drags on and drags on and drags on, his probably taiwanese energy is postponed, he is forced to postpone his plans and there ends his third term as the head of the prc and it is necessary to prove again that he should remain in power is a difficult situation, and there is one more important point that needs to be understood. China turns out to be 100 and politicians are observers that russia is in any negotiations at all. The only problem why these negotiations are not taking place is not the desire of ukraine. So i want to remind you that just it seems to me that yesterday or today, the head of the Russian Foreign ministry serhii lavrovchogo said that russia is not interested in any negotiations with ukraine , the russians constantly repeat this. Sometimes they mislead and say that it is ukraine that does not want negotiations, not every time when a specific question is put before them. And what about the defeated, they say that they are not relevant now, they are not needed now. In principle, i do not believe in the very possibility of russianukrainian victories, as many say that this war, like any other, will end at the negotiating table, i insist on the opposite , no, the russianukrainian war, even if it ends, may not end at any negotiating table, it may just be an informal truce or a truce that will be formalized by some kind of agreements with mediators, but ukraine and russia will not emerge victorious, the only possibility for the president of ukraine to appear at the same table with the president of the Russian Federation is to make a decision on the complete capitulation of ukraine to russia and to find opportunities to ensure the further