A great power in trump. Whats wrong with germany, the hello and very warm. Welcome to this weeks to the point time, have you know . Yes, and im happy to introduce this weeks guests on a daves is a government reporter for bloomberg. News based here in berlin quality buena is a journalist and editor at the Berlin Bureau of the german use paper targets. And katya jolla. Is there a researcher at the kings college, london, an author of the best selling book beyond the wall, about the former german democratic republic . 12, you are very welcome as well, and thank you for being with us. Uh valerie, id like to start with you. Most of our viewers are not in germany and might be wondering why were giving have things this discussion. How would you describe this sensation, this feeling in germany . The things are not going well. I feel like when the worst started, the Russia Ukraine worst started on february 24th 2022. Basically in germany was right at the center almost immediately because of the Energy Crisis that followed. Germany was heavily dependent on russian gas, and that sort of became the countries defining moment of like a downward spiral that were watching right now and folds. And i think that basically made the country so aware of its vulnerabilities that werent quite as visible before. Visible in the country itself. But what about outside of the country, katia . Do you live in london . You work in london, do you think people there also see germany as a struggling country right now . I think so. I mean of theres a tendency here thing to compare britain to germany, particularly post bricks. It where people are always looking for figures to show you, you know, that it either worked with didnt work and germany is usually used as the, as the autistic. A and i think at the moment in particular, you know, products that goes right to the Central Office to buy it. And the argument is that the u. K. Economy is growing foster and of germany. And so i thought thought certainly is the sense that you know, germany is declining, was quickness of doing ok. Well, at least of the, the message that the, the, the government and the official say goes to the figures are important. Were going to take a closer look at them later on on it. However, you know, not too long ago under, im going, im actually germans were very confident in their country and in their future. Its not that long ago. To what extent do you also think this might have to do with the change of leadership in the country this mood swing . Oh, well i think a trans flush also has the unlucky task to tackle some of the problems which actually where are the visible on the trensler, michael 5. Now he has to draw up to more or less clean up the mess if you want to say. So um, and then of course you have to war, you have a changing Global Market conditions. Um, so is there a number affect us and i think they all unfortunately, right . No work against you. How many it is certainly a perfect storm. We are going to have a look at the numbers because while most industrialized nations are recovering strongly after the cubic 19 pandemic, the German Economy is shrinking. Some politicians and economists are predicting germanys downfall after decades of stability. Whats more, that impression of weakness is damaging. Germanys image germany is the 4th largest economy in the world. This export nation wants to become a climate neutral economy, but there is not enough invest. Many companies are complaining about too much bureaucracy, slow digitalization, and ty, taxes. More than 40 percent of companies lack skilled workers, but above all energy costs are high. A consequence of years of dependence on russian gas replacing it is expensive. One key industry is especially affected. The chemical sector sales are down and it is reducing Production Companies are now threatening to migrate, for example, to the us, which offers attractive subsidies and the german Auto Industry falling behind. The electric cars have long been coming from china. Germanys economic growth. Its embarrassingly slow, according to the o. E. C, d. It ranks 19 among the 20 largest economies. It is followed by arch and tina. But economists do expect to recovery in 2024 thanks to following inflation and rising wages. How deep is the german economic crisis . And were gonna talk that one to you. Valerie determine economy, as you already mentioned, was powerful thanks to cheap gas from russia, but also very low military expenses and a thirst for german products. Coming from a booming china, all 3 are gone. Tenant actually recover from this seemingly perfect storm. I think it would be to, to going too far to predict germanys down fall like from a Global Player at this point. And i do think germany can recover, but i think as on the said, you kind of have, you have so many issues that were long is invisible because of gross because of good conditions because of money coming in. And since its sort of been strips to more of its like bare bones, you kind of see whats actually going on in the like skeletal germany and what structures have to be changed and fixed for the country to then prosper again in the future. And one of the most important aspects of that outlook into the future is the Energy Transition on a germany is betting on and vicious transition to Renewable Energy. But the resulting high prices are actually driving companies away. Is there a reason to believe germany is and will continue to be a competitive investment destination if this goes on . And i think the past germany is on, it is a difficult one, its a risky one. The problem is i think people determines belief in this Energy Transition at the outset of this current government. And i think people have lost the bit the belief in it. Um, also because of come mistakes, the government did. There were some laws which were not ideal. And made people most garrett, the necessary maybe i think, uh, still on the long run it will work. It is also necessary. Uh. But right now we go through the valley of tiers. I would say, what do you mean exactly when you say that people lost trust in that transition . Do you think they would say bring back look or bring back coal or what . What do you mean by that . I think i think the, the, especially the green potty or has a problem here because the argument is always we, we need to do this in order to save the world. And of course, and even people who run not really into the details of the whole thing will understand that and you know we, we do 2 percent of global c, u 2 emission. I think we are responsible for 2 percent. So of course everything personal ask and most of, well okay, you know, its 2 percent, but what do china do . What does the us do . Other countries in the world in yeah, i mean they, they all a big c or to a mutual resent. The question is of course, and its sort of a valid question. Why does germany have to be like the ideal role model for everybody else . You mentioned the green party on it. Its one of 3 governing parties in germany right now, catch up some blaine government and mixed signals for the, the internal and the internal disputes that the government has for this general distrust and how theyre dealing with the economy. Why is it so difficult here to provide a much needed clarity for the people . What else . And possibly its the fact that you have the Coalition Government in germany, which isnt necessarily the case in other countries such as near the u. K or the us. And so youre always going to have these internal negotiations and wranglings coming into the public sphere as well and giving the impression of the, you know, disjointed and this united, its a government that isnt giving a, a clear course. I think the other issues, the, even within the green policy itself, um, you know, you could arguments around the transition of the economy, particularly, you know, whether or how its a substitute and that part of the part of the energy 6 does that con p. And for the Renewable Energy just yet, so you know what you do to bring back nuclear, in which case the green parts, in particular, in germany as cool, a very strongly legacy bill of opposition against it. But it would be a c, o 2, you know, friendly, other than most of the other alternatives, which is why many green movements and other countries supported but not in germany where the legacy is just that. And then at the same time, you know, people are arguing with a gas and then what, what form basically is the substitute. Because at the moment of course, its incredibly expensive to import energy. And so there are one of these arguments i think, internally, both within the policies and within the Coalition Government that gives the impression of, of a disjointed approach that isnt really leading towards so clear goals of work vision thats insecurity, which is of course toxic for the business environment. Now validate, theres also another massive problem in germany where at least its always mentioned, which is bureaucracy. Theres this famous example of 4055. 00 file folders required for one windmill. At least it was big in the news, is that the biggest threat that it could harm the economy . I think it already is harming the economy. I think that during, during the year of massacre, a lot of bureaucracy, the problem was there and it was known. But nothing really was done about it. So now we end up having these absolutely almost casket ask structures in which people have to go back and back and back and, and get another permanent another permit. And of course, that makes investors more shy about investing because its such a long drawn out process. And i think i do feel that the, the co listed now is trying to change that. But its also very hard again, with the Coalition Government there, catch you. I already mentioned having different parties having the green party that historically has been very fond of environmental as and now has to kind of give up like parts of that to facilitate the transition to green energy. For example, if you put a windmill that might influence birds or something thats like an example thats always given. And so basically, i think it already is part of the problem. And its something that theyre trying to fix. But its proven to be much harder to fix, then was anticipated. The same goes for digitalization on a, theres talk to germany is severely behind when it comes to that. What do you make of that assessment . Well, i just want to come back quickly to, to the, for all cause the problem of cause you have to ask the same political lead whip, who introduced all of this delicacy now to remove it. They can as always difficult because its, its, its kind of on the mindset on structure which they, themselves created with digitalization. Um, i think we all have made this experience, you know, you travel abroad, you know, to wherever in europe you want to go into suddenly you realize, oh wow. So the wi fi is much better here. The, the, the internet connection. So that the, the has to definitely something has to help them yet. But of course again we have then discussions about technical problems. For example, weve discussed will wait. And now we have this problem, ok, where you have to take, i took away components from the network as probably, you know, which will even slow down the whole process of, of announcing the, the internet structure. Ill make it faster. So i also here again, i think uh we have the that the, how can i say that is feeling okay. We have to do something about it. But then you have all the technical problems really and, or really good problems. Also, you know, Data Protection in germany is a big issue. It is a huge problem for, for many digital projects. Next to you Say Something it up that its always a battle between ideals and principles and the actual feasibility of doing things. And when it comes to ideals, nothing is clear as a problem, then the society of durham you right now, its not just the economic date of the German Society is showing alarming. Trents. More and more people reject politics and the state and have less trust and democracy, but only in the Eastern States that were under communist rule, but also in the west disappointment with politics. As on the rise, posing a threat to what was once again or the mood is dark in germany. According to a survey, around 80 percent of germans are worried about the future. Experts say this in security is the result of multiple crises. The corona pandemic. The warren ukraine, the Energy Crisis and inflation. The German Government has many disagreements. Most germans think it is performing poorly. The f d, p s p d, and greens would no longer have a majority today. Even if a study shows that the coalition has initiated or implemented almost 2 thirds of its promised legislation. The a f d, which is partly right wing extremist is benefiting from ramp and discontent in surveys at rank, 2nd, across the nation. And even 1st in eastern germany, extreme right wing attitude started becoming increasingly socially accepted. Over 8 percent of those surveys in the middle of study express a right wing extremist worldview and 20 percent. So not clearly committed to democracy, economic researchers or warning that should germany move further to the right. Investors will strongly away. How can the growing right wing populism be countered . On a how do you explain that the country that has always warned the rest of the world about forgetting the mistakes of the past is now giving far right parties record support or well, you know, it might sound a bit cynical, but again, we follow maybe the us example here, that means you have to have like a pretty right wing president and power. Right now you have a political crisis because you have a right wing ready clips, basically questioning the whole democratic system. And of course we see a similar trend in germany. I mean, its, you know, we have it and, and the number of European Countries in germany, of course, it always has a different meaning because of all historical passed. But of course, we are grouped by the same identity crisis, which i think many western democracies face, right. Now um, before the us, germanys history is certainly a particular katcha, the a if the, the far right party is strongest in the eastern part of the country which used to be the german democratic republic which was under communist rule. That appears to be a big contradiction. A yeah, it has to be. Um, i think pop up probably agree with the on it and not. Its a, its an International Problem as well as the see it in the us. But also in phones with the julies own, were not in other countries as well where that is disaffection and dot dot olson reflects in, in extremist politics. I think in east germany in particular theres another dimension that and not they can use this collective sense. So, you know, weve gone through a different experience, were not really feeling that this democracy dealt with. Now part of is, is sort of working for the, for the people in the, if the is very, very good at utilizing that. So where people feel that, you know, its always up there that those dont, you know, classical phrases that people use of doing the own thing. The if the sits in, you know, pops and balls and local areas and organized local events. And people feel about that being listened to by them. I think thats, thats one way in which this works. And i think the other is that they are also very good at using this kind of logical rhetoric that the really perpetuating the peaceful revolution of 1989. So in contrast to many kind of popular opinions out there that thats what i suspect that instruments on the style, jake, about the pulse. Actually the sort of rhetoric that the ac use, this is, you know, you for one dictate the shipping in 1999. And now the states again trying to tell you what to do. So go into the streets again. And you know, they use slogans like for the end of the vendors. So like complete the, the piece of evolution of 1999 and things like that. So i think that the difference is that the is kind of a in so like an in groups feeling among some instruments that they feel, you know, they have their own identity. And the, if the is better able to, to play, to the end, to use that i think than, than elsewhere where its difficult to kind of get a whole group of people to buy into the same thing. But do you think the current or the last governments have actually failed to people in east germany or in the former eastern . So thats certainly how many people feel. So you know, take, take like the then from this heating bill, you know, people was little saying, but the governments tried to tell us how to heat. Oh, and were really struggling. And this seems to be very little and kind of communication towards trying to get people on board with this policy. You were explaining what its actually for, you know, people will have the feeling that this has done to them. And so i think theres certainly a feeling out there that concerns on being heard or, you know, even when the, the refugee causes thought is that the moment when, when community is the individual, the districts of being told they have to take sight in so many refugees but there isnt actually any kind of help or support or thats how people feel any way in terms of housing, people supplying them, you know, finding kind of infrastructure that is there. When you know School Support tools and things that are being used, people feel up this was directly impacting on their lives without them actually getting and say in a we can detach the of the, from a strong anti migration discourse, very german companies. This comes altogether with the economy as well, are complaining about a lack of skilled labor. We know that it can only be provided by foreigners, how racist is germany, and how much did that affect the Economic Outlook . I think as the country that was majority, white for or still is for longest of its history. And of course there is racism in germany. And theres also because i think of as how conservative germany was for a long time. There was also always sort of a rhetoric around were not actually an immigration country. This was actually something that was debated until like 10 or 15 years ago where clearly germany is an immigration nation, but hasnt identified a search for a long time. I think, you know, studies show that germans are open to, to immigration and um, so i think its, its sort of 2 fold. I think of course theres racism like of course, but theres also, there was also an openness for a long time. And now with inflation with the war, the crises, the pen demik, all of these overlapping crises have sort of halted. And it as a sort of a positive excitement about immigration. Because now the way we talk about immigration right now is solely based on refugees under the country. Not as much people coming to work here. That would be a positive narrative because everyone knows you need people to work because there are no, no people to work. So um, so i feel like here you kind of have to, you have to look at both subjects separately. So you have the refugees coming in needing help. Of course, a lot of them are traumatized. Theyve gone through terrible hardship. And on the other hand, the economy needs people to work. Question is, can you bring the 2 together and that has not worked the way, especially members of the green party thought it would work out like additional in 2015. And so i think it also hasnt worked as badly though, as some conservative pundits are saying, like i looked up the numbers today. And after 6 years of being here, 64 percent. 5 of people who are, who were refugees do work. So there is like a positive trend or after 7 years. I think there is a positive trend, but its sort of not enough to keep a society that is already under stress and positive about refugee immigration. Certainly as a process for sure. Now we have a few more minutes left and id like to look into the future, which is always difficult on us. This has all all been very grim right. Looking into the future. How optimistic are you about the future of jeremy and his role in the world as well . Well, i think we have proven in the past that weve been pretty good in handling crisis. I mean, at the end of the night is we also managed to get out of this sick man of euro phase. And so i, i would hope that we are able to draw all the necessary consequences. I think we need to maybe complain a bit less and maybe be a bit more optimistic about the future that would already help. And i think we, we would need a chance allow, whos, whos not only, you know, talking reality nice. But also addressing the problems, telling people what has to be done, and then just have to execute actually the, the necessary measures which will be necessary to adopt to a rapidly changing world. A world that is certainly watching a catch up. Do you think this, lets say, more humbled version of germany could also be a good thing. And then im also the courses in the looking back as the store in germany has been been declared at several times to be you know, a stagnating economy when the slowing down. And its always kind of like this big ocean line. Uh, you know, of an economy that moves very slowly in the moves towards the crisis and its difficult to turn around, but equally, it does move very slowly and those type of thing to, to sort things out. I think the problem is that, and quite often we, you know, be, weve talked about some of these issues already. And kind of the ideal gets in the way of, of actually looking at what needs to be done and, and we end up basically with politicians arguing among themselves about the kind of ideas that they want. And actually in reality, the things that are necessary to, to get close to it rather than directly to it. And also along the way, i think lots of people feel literally left behind. You know, the slides is often used as a cliche, but it is definitely an issue and well see how that unfolds and this ocean liner. We at least we 3 here are. Thank you so much talk 3 guess. Thank you so much to you for watching. Remember, you can always watch our Youtube Video searching for dw. Ill see you next time. Take care by the or the answer is the conflict of the west to continue to do what needs to be done. Strong was from my desk this week today says former deputy Supreme Commander in europe. I mentioned sure that theres a lingering feel that somehow we can go back to some sort of spaces, clarifying to russia. That is not going to happen. The same thing happened. Conflict in 30 minutes on d w. Imagine how many portions of lots of turn out in the World Climate change. The story. This is much less the way from just one week. How much was going to really get we still have time to work. Im going to access the news turnkey is changing 6 years ago. He said he cant get any was, but it does guardians of truth. This time excel gym is turned into our needs. The voices of the 3 turkey officer as the ad one has history into exile. I knew the police would search my house. Courageous people are trying to stem the turkish governments all sort of tammy and cools. Also did the chance again. But really its a crime is addressed and the path of trying to takes responsibility for his action. What about freedom of the prince and freedom of expression . What about parliamentary democracy . To the situation is very serious. Cutting as right as not only weapon is op and guardians of true tasks. October 28th on dw, the business dw news live from berlin. Ukraine suffers one of the deadliest attack since the scots, off the russian invasion. Dozens of civilians including children, are killed as a village in the east of the country faces the missile strikes. Also coming up, the building of the wall will resume a policy reversal from us. The president job item will allow the construction of more barriers along the southern border to stop migrants crossing from back