Governor sends out how long can put and hold on to power. Andrea so that tough welcome to complex down. Thank you for having me. You are in contact with whistle blowers and the Russian Security services. Why did per goes and really stop his march towards moscow. Well, because it was never about trying to take power and to take moscow, it was about rand negotiator and his deal with foods and as a minister of defense and the ones you understood that he miscalculated, that he wanted to still to get some figure out the best situation, so his son, his columns to most scowled, but it was most of that to apply for a time when find that he got what you wanted, or this what he could get out of the situation. His stuff. Nevertheless, he got quite far and its being called the most dramatic challenge to put in his authority since he came to power 23 years ago. Is progression and still a threat to put in things the biggest is the biggest pro, a fridays not it goes into said bob, xerox. And it was an army and that was the Russian Security services. Everybody understood that big wars and while he might be extremely adventurous, yes, he has a lot of people on the, his come on several files and people, bobs xerox and of the army is what matters now and give us the fact that nobody wanted to stop recording and the Security Services that people have a put in charge of providing the political stability or follow up, which is great. Gym did absolutely nothing as a f, as b local office. Central stuff on dont does body care of themselves and their headquarters does that sound a very warning signal to puts an end to moscow bad . Its not all okay. And these people who are in charge of, well protected him actually do nothing. Then nevertheless, the kremlin has been trying to dismiss the uprising, calling it minor trouble. In contrast, you have the use top diplomat warning, but prudent has lost the monopoly of force and an unstable rush. It becomes a risk. How serious do you see the uprising and how fragile is the russian state . Again, i think the problem is not the only bit because on here is uh, an extremely interesting conduct uh bought his, uh, the options are limits. He doesnt have any uh, law public support provided by other members selves. There are some that leads, for instance, and ottoman didnt support hamilton. They bought several things to be happened during the visit prize. And reg seemed a warning, for instance, fis, um, now infamous of asia aware, a big goal is to sit in together, verify depth to me, to self defense. Yes, cor, off. And so is that, that you had that there are some minutes for intelligence. Alex, save and a shave in life. A bod xyzzy off taking all gates and actually show youre going to rush them off. Well, thats because im such a shock informed me and i immediately contact with my source that says the Russian Security to services and special forces and ask them what do they think . And they both sides. You have that you have to tell us how those there are some good for intelligence. Uh, basically saying, while you can have them, if you want. Uh, and my people said, wow, actually i like say it was right. And i think that was even more worth some 4 points. And because in this case you have the most capable of madisons russian, middle tray and Russian Security services, publicly questionnaire and uh, submitted through their say. Given all of that, what youve just highlighted there, how much support do you think from corrosion might have had covertly from inside of the Security Service . It is the military, the leads because i mean, it appeared that his human, his wagner mercenaries that they meant no resistance. Yes, absolutely. The once again, i just wanted to stress as a f, as be decided to do the opposite of to nothing. And they had and they control online, something like, why did they fail to stop if getting promotion is what wagner uprising earlier . Why was the biggest uh, i think the answer is that separate goes on is, is it kind of, maverick, hes not part of the system. So for the system, for the russian system of intelligent security, 10 minutes restructures, its really difficult to understand his place and position. Everybody understands that its all about puts into goes in personal connection. And the problem is nobody knows, for instance, uh, what is this connection . As we speak, so maybe its really bad, maybe is getting better, maybe is getting worse. So we dont now the general social, they didnt know at the moment, those uprising what might be that connection. And they just decided to wait and see. You highlighted one particular point in your previous writing, um the fact that the Security Service in particular, in moscow, they called on wagner fighters to go and arrest your guinea per goes in their own leader. And this is especially extraordinary because the speeds, military counter intelligence, operatives are within wagners ranks. How are you seeing this . Because this is their job, isnt it isnt, isnt it a huge break and loyalty to the kremlin . How would this be being viewed right now by putting himself as a really good question because of this office and for People Like Us from outside their selves, the system always f as b. Of course, it looks like a complete file of these people that put that to water into cumberland involves the problems which might come up out of, of the walk in a group as that was a primary drop. Right . Uh, and as i says be, is not only about to impressions thats about prevention, risk on the same stuff happened. And so they felt that theres upsets clear about the same times. A problem this puts in is that he is to some extent parts of the system is just remember that he is a trained kids, youd be office and in similar circumstances. So 2 years ago and thats and thats 1. 1 is it kids youd be in some wild people as a pilot and theyre all wanted to stage occluded top and tell people gorbachev. Most of the ranks uh inside of the kitchen being decided to do exactly this same to wait and see whats in absolutes in less thing. His friends, people, he now respects and who on now is a ill on is a key positions. And as the Russian Security services, the old, the, the same b, the opposite list and nothing, nothing and not send that to one. So youll have this strange emotional thing, shape and all false statement that actually when something really big is happening is not up. Theres a Security Services to decide when to ok, which is absolutely uh, concert protective, but never said that. They have it up. Senior pentagon officials have highlighted that the uprising highlights poor coordination between the military and other Security Services. Can you give us a window into how deep the connections are, for example, between the military rushes, Security Services and wagner in particular . Well, 1st of all, im, i do not completely agree with this assessment. Just remember that as of paid time off is uprising, the russian army kept finding that youre brand new and comprehensive. That it was no collapse all falls, the Russian Forces as a buckle filled. So the only thing they felt the face and the accident to deal with was this particular muted in often garzon. And here you have all the problems. Belarus has. Lucas jenko said that he ultimately brokered the deal that sa precaution, his wagon of forces, abandoned their march toward moscow. Is lucas shank over 2000000 humiliating fulton, or did he save him . Well, i think, oh, the whole, think about bello sound . Look, i think im participation of cause made puts in locust during the week. Just remember that for many, many years, which it was familiar with, things that idea and met can it sacrifice the idea of National Southern sea . That was such a big thing that you can ball just to find all kinds of pressure on this. If you want to while to promote this thing, and that is why they got those are impressions in our country because it is a wake off national, southern see, and mile ones you guys will put program puts in, got the kids a real problem. While he left his mind to pop that uh, Alexander Walker signed, gotta go fix his internal program. So it does with look for pollution, really good. Lucas ankle also saying that promotion is now in bella roost. Although theres been no independent confirmation. He also hasnt been heard for from in more than a week. What do you think is happening to per goshen . Is he still alive while its difficult to say, but i think hes still very much alive for us to fall. What is . Well, in his grades, the situation is really difficult to understand what is going on, bobs better. Several interesting science stuff. Default the whole think about criminal charges. So its changing. But as far as i guess, and that started as far as that, everybody got it as a criminal charges fund that adult, which is a big thing because one puts you in and to come in once to expel somebody for real. Well, you have the criminal charges, it gets to be a spouse. And for instance, in my case, im a wanted man in russia and i have criminal charges against me. So if i ever get back to the county, i am facing up to 10 years in prison, and that is a guarantee i was never getting back. But footprint gossen bed decided to make an exception. So there was no criminal charges. So legally speaking, but as nothing to prevent him from getting back to the same pitch as a boat to moscow to that now its just safe at the spots of his business and pot for goes. You know, i mean hes, hes been promised this immunity. We have to say um, but he got richard who is this close ties to food now put in his actually mentioned that the finances of for goes is lucrative catering firm will be investigated. How do you see that . Is this a signal that he could actually be prosecuted for financial crimes or, you know, was put in just trying to take them down a notch. I think its about some parts of a pretty gardens, a business business and bar because of costs that some companies that are assigned. Theyve been that for years spot. They had no chance. Now theyve got this chance. So that trying to win this. So, contracts provided by the government times administer of defense. Mazda looks like, regardless ball skills, and his people are still important for put an address in several areas, for instance, in africa. And it looks like, uh, coming doesnt want to completely dis, bond walk now and walk around the duration sand. The middle list and africa progression had been railing against the top military press for months. Ultimately, he said that the kremlin state of reasoning behind the war and ukraine was false, wanting to put and allow the threat posed by promotion to fester for so long. Well, pushing on the stands thats very clear that even in last of unpopular wars could produce very popular generals. And these generals, at some moment my become a political frat that happens many times in russian history. Pushing understands that and the stance about to count on that to go. So he wanted to have some counterbalance to that, some sort of maverick from my exposure programs in submitted tray and to peep, mid trade generals off balance. Thats exactly what was the role of precaution for all of these months. Lets talk about the Wagner Miller scenary griffin. What happens to them next be . Theyve been thrown into disarray. The fight for control is said to have just begun. Lucas tango has invited mercenaries to relocate to in a band into military base in the country. There are some reports of new satellite images appearing to show tents being set up in, in bel, ever as to that effect is, is that their best offer to go to bella roost . And are they likely to take it . Well i think that that some moments put in just decided to relocate robin or to save his public image as someone who is still on uh in control of the situation. And then because it will suck cumulate and to have well, by the soldiers motion of the theyre all, its in russia. So he decided to really catch him, him to bellows. But of course, i mean, wagner has no other customers by the russian stage. Biller, which is very much penetrated by uh, by the russians so, so its not like you was expelled to some independent country and out a free trump lot. Scott, thats not true. The us says that right now, theyre continuing to see some elements of the wagner group in russian occupied territory. And ukraine. Ukrainian intelligence says that wagner will not fight in ukraine any more. Do you think that wagner in ukraine will go willingly or its about an interesting question that we have some reports recently, actually today that so ill wagner about officers, they use it as the states months that they stop recruiting people uh right now for fonts. And then ukraine bots um the language we use as their and biggest as like, we have stuff in for now. So maybe the outpatient for some of the office over to full. Maybe they would get would be given a new name. So, but i think some of them is office group, the fonts and as they did before. Lets talk a little bit more about how russians are viewing all of this ukranian president s. The landscape says that moscow has been suffering full scale weakness. He calls it for goes and has apparently tapped into the view that putting is a, is a corrupt system where the ruling, the lead had been emerging themselves and are more interested in pleasing food and then doing what is right for National Interest to ordinary people. That thats a message which seems to have resonated how high is the dissatisfaction with putin and food newsom as well. Uh, in the middle of the tray. Uh, the rear is a clear uh, spinning sides. The russian generals as old as on not extremely competent. And its a, its a very interesting in our wonderful situation because it is right now that the russian army is gave some vision you found confidence in themselves because actually is, are you crazy on the fence or physics seem to slow all that is the perception of the russian army is not my perception, but thats not how they sees a situation. They, they fear that it could be a really big no of a c. Its not that big and not back horrible. Uh so that gets in this sense alpha uh, that sound not actually bad, bad. Uh at the same time, but keep lame is a junior all send that as why they support that to some extent of silence. They may be p gordons criticism because they share the same feeling, but it does move that, that ready to just dont think about it. So they still got approval and the sit in class, they need to find visible federal for very long time. Is that. But heres how the, the head of the c, i a, is framing the situation. He says that this affection with the world will continue to not away at the russian leadership, and that it creates a once in a Generation Opportunity for the c. I a to recruit spies in russia. You are very familiar with the Security Services. Do you think that the c, i will find Fertile Ground for recruitment as well . I think rather, we as you know, theres a lot of wishful thinking. Yeah. Were trying to identify every sign of, of descent as a, as a signal that the system will inevitably collapse. And i know as a, in the model for several months, i would be extremely, i would be more cautious to be honest. Its not likely that lots of people accepted xyzzy. I was a war includes as a russian the, lets put in those who are you good at conducting repressions, especially against his own people. We have several s as the people in general that have ministers sends out governance in general. So it is a big thing for the Russian Society and lots of people on sale is found. The stands that, thats actually there is no way for them, but to stay and to stay low to put in. So i would, i would say that for c, i a, its might end up as soon as see, uh, but i would be cautious. Also, the program is bad to say which with the best people find that it was a chance for the factions. And right now for the russian, that is because a folder restrictions, so for travel, im in the truck with easy to to make it through europe. All it isnt as a stays, the chances that the same people as a russian, that is what saying ok, maybe now i stopped spines. Was i many concerns about forgive, but give me a chance to, to move on to, to friends. And that just stays that quite same put, and since the uprising he has been seeming to be bent on projecting normalcy and stability, weve seen him ramping on public appearances. And the week after the uprising, he gave a number of national addresses for training. The rebellion as a heroic episode, he travelled to the Southern Region of dag of san where he slipped local cognac. He spoke about growing regional tourism. He even attended a Technology Fair in moscow. What are russians make of that . Or are they buying it . Well, no, not all of them off gums. So especially in big stages bogged and proven says you have lots of people who are still very supportive of pollution and they accept as a russian propaganda adoption of the of. And so that puts you on my and your acid to avoid blood shit on to some extent you did actually have that. It was no real big launched it. Uh, except for this uh, unfortunate pilots and it is appropriate for the middle of tray. Not for that population provision, i mean his rants. They really offer this alternative to the war propaganda. For Many Russians in unvarnished glimpse from the front lines you highlighted the use list and unjustified losses. Can russians really go back to regularly scheduled programming while thats a good question, but i think what, because we wanted to do, he wanted to become some sort of, uh uh you will press it for, says Russian Society, ill be of as a license to uh times the russian, it leads to mobilize the rest of society, which and does one side. He still thinks that its possible to win the visible def file, the total mobilization. But we dont know what might happen if say you agree on the offensive goes with the success a fall. We just dont know that might change the situation. And if that changes, they might be new space and you room for pre goals and then people are, can, lets talk about prudent for us to shore up his power. First of all is a crack down under way. As that is one thing which is clear. Uh, also it gives the services and the army as a national guard, they loan. Is it less than that . Why do you have a program . Is it on a sort of circle of pollution . Is it better not to interfere . And i think it is a very bad signal for points and because well what if tomorrow some of the guys say could do it . Of all someone, all is the rest of the security council. Now come opposite the Russian Television and say, wow, ill wasnt sure why the manager will go to hell and we need to replace, give someone that would be a huge confusion. That is cliff right now. You, if you look at the overall situation, though, russias most senior generals, they, theyve dropped out of view since the uprising. Im thinking about general ross him of, hes report the not appeared in public. Hes of course, in charge of the war effort and ukraine. The kremlin has also been deflecting questions about the whereabouts of general sort of the can, who is seen as aligned with precaution and believe to be detained. What do you think is happening to them . A while its really difficult to understand. Ive been checking the information about sort of a can for all these days. It looks like sort of course, but he was sent to prison. We kind of confirmed them, but he said it seems that he was at least until a gate as and its quite interesting vibes we are here and visit rumors. It bows and middle trojan are also about not about Security Services, which is a very interesting thing. While you have these people, im is f as b as a national guard. All of the Security Services pulled in charge of puts his personal security it, and political stability. It is yet all the questions that come to has. Its all about some of the trick. How much impact do you think these events of the past weeks are going to have on the war and ukraine . Um, its a good question because the one hand we see is that walking our didnt participate directly, at least in big numbers and, and trying to selves you praying and contra offensive. It is a jump for the regular russian army. While at the same time walk, there is still a very capable force and they have his reputation ends. There are some miller trait, yet there is new confusion. Now because of the, obviously im using, it stays by longer because of this policy who upheld full up so that the nothing well put us of course, enough of as was about to be spiel of his pilots were killed because of a on another the russian heroes but it was a middle track here and is that, that it would be no justice for the, for his policy. And that samuel is, nobody would be prosecute that for keeping this, this policy. And that chris and you can see using it means that it has a re, regular army still find in the bottle failed. You have a number of product miniature companies as an ottoman now is looking at risk product mutual competitors. We have some suspicion because these guys overs approved frederick and kill russian soldiers and they can get away the fed. So these kind of confusing in the long scholar my sites are situations about the felt the ukrainian counter offensive has, has not yet achieved significant success, according to natos Top Commander in europe. Do you think that now there is more pressure on putting to end the war . No, i dont think so. I think what, pushing on the stance is, uh uh very it was such a big investment in inside. Yeah, of your brand new encounter offensive. Uh, wallace was a big thing for, for that you brand new and governments for us. Are you bringing latest ship . It was a big thing from nature for the west. In russia. It was played as a sign that the russian army well behaved. And actually it was not extremely uh, great uh is the beginning of the war, but the vegas in batch are there is this. Uh, there is a strange feeling now, especially because its all about history and the 2nd world war and all of that. So there is these ideas shaded by man, yet by russian army over his dogs of war. Uh, and the very bad shape, but a different bassa on the way and put you on this trying to capitalize on vis filling. I like to ask you one last question about the uprising the wagner uprising because many are concerns that a food does fall. The concern is that a replacement leader could be worse crumbling, critical krakowski said the following week, glimpse how the regimes inevitable fall is likely to come about. And the forces that well seek to take over so called national patriots, led by another dog. If you look at the big picture, do you think that russia is ultimately doomed to have one thug replaced by another . After putting all our thoughts into it might happen because as it more visible goes, is it more as the russians the sides is getting used of as well. And now the, i guess it is a motional argument and save opposite will because theres so many casualties. Theres so many People Killed and even the people who felt well confused about the beginning of the war. Now they have visited in growl and my villas someone gets killed by these ukrainian. So why should i feel story and balance of all. So and some, and some way the support for that was guessing all its not big about its, its most stable and it means that the hostess of the society projection itself does idea that while its going to be with a long war and in the long war you get people like general sand, why while using very tough language, more and more and more popular pop law. And at some moment they might get some miles from position in depaula. Yeah, thats true. How long do you think putting has while i think is about talking about years under so that definitely have to leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us on conflicts on a thank you. The facing internal and external friends, moto bux, to spend nation in the shadow of the things a tax on ukraine has deeply divided the population some once in a line with you, or others, or return to russian. In 15 minutes on d, w. The another thing, indias geothermal potential, the hi, the mountains of the human the springs could provide sustainable electricity for this pilot project. Pay the weights, excitement, neutrality, pico india, 90 minutes on t w. The vacation is just time for players to produce the beach and head into the state. The season kicks off. A lot of work to do so your cell kick off the. Every jenny is surprising. Weve gone all out to give you some of the right people in your northern most count the police the free time, but still very much alive. Your guy to the special thoughts in germany recognizes where exactly it was fun. Learn a lot of our culture history. All their travel extremely worth a visit. The the the, youre watching the, the news, why from berlin . Now ways emergency chief defends his response to devastating fires. He says that sounding so nami sirens could have some people running toward fire. Danger sounds more than a 110 people are confirmed dad and over a 1000. Others are still missing. Also coming up on the show, your brain claims a success and its counter offensive read, taking the village from Russian Forces. But the clock is ticking to make games before much