Very much for joining us and my guests here in the studio in the burlington are professor Susanna Schreiber from the german Ethics Council, who says, in theory, we know how best to distribute limited supplies of the vaccine, the real challenge is putting these ideas into practice. Also with us is yunior fischer, former doctor now journalist and author. She believes the vaccine is a ray of hope, but tough times she says, still lie ahead for all of us and a very warm welcome to you to be a score professor for Public Health and jane and bill in charity hospital. Who argues that the news of an effective vaccine is good, but it shouldnt distract from the many problems posed by the pandemic. Thank you all 3 for being here. I would like to begin with you. Theres so much to talk about. Some people are talking about a shimmer of hope. The end of the tunnel i saw though one commentator saying, we find ourselves in the midst of an all to him of resignation. Stuff, is it too dark . I wouldnt see it as dark. I mean, it also depends on where you are. I have to say for me, i am carefully optimistic because i see those images of hope as shimmers of hope. And we have to be realistic. We have to see it is going to take quite some time. Its not going to go from tomorrow on, but i think scientists have announced quite some optimistic news and we can hope that its all going to get better. So i am carefully optimistic. This is going to schreiber optimistic news is the Glass Half Full or half empty . Oh, definitely half full at the moment i would say, and i wouldnt talk about resignation. I would rather say we have like an autumn of where dont think we can feel this, that everyone is suffering from it in from the pen demick one way or the actually exhaustion. Exactly. But i truly think that now with these news, we have reason to be optimistic and we have a real exit strategy that people hopefully be able to take. So to what extent the pandemic is under control, thats the question were asking today. Not yet, but we have a fair chance now to get it under control. Would you say to be as, whats your contribution to this of the moves debate in the mood swings . Well, the news about a vaccine is a very important one and will help us to hopefully continue the path that we have started. But many restaurants or theatres squiers have difficulties to, to survive economically, mentally in the families. So many people facing a really, really hard time and we focusing a lot of the protests or the other side. But the middle where people are really struggling and are not only tired but but, but we live, facing the consequences for the family, for their lives. And that is, that is really frustrating and i hope that we all are able to help those individuals. But yes, its a good sign. So i also think that i have a heart that glass is half full. Interesting. I saw one survey that said it 85 percent of people here in germany, apparently believe that we will come through the pandemic. The pandemic . Well, in the coming months, 85 percent. How do you account for that . Great news and positive certainly push, but those will be very, very hard months. So we have to understand that a vaccine will only be available some times during next spring, hopefully, or even even a bit later. And then it need to be distributed and people need to be vexing. Were talking about millions of people. So this is a long way to go until we really control the pandemic. Ok, huge number of scientists around the world are feverish. Lee trying to come up with an anti covert vaccine. The question is, is this humanity at its best with people giving everything to save the lives of others . Or is this about profit and strategic gains from the 200. 00 Pharma Companies worldwide that are researching to find the coronavirus vaccine. The german company, bio on tech and the u. S. Company, pfizer were the 1st to announce a breakthrough with cutting edge biotechnology. The genetic makeup of the virus would be injected, allowing the patient to develop perfect antibodies. A disadvantage is that the serum must be stored at temperatures of minus 70 degrees celsius. That would rule out vaccinations at a family, doctors office, and special Vaccination Centers would have to be built. But the effectiveness of the serum is over 90 percent. We are not the know is are we continued to control just to get the companies this week. The company more down now also went into the home stretch. Its vaccine is based on the same technology and has a similarly high effectiveness as the bio on tech drug, but it doesnt require extensive cooling methods. This vaccine can be stored at temperatures between 2 and 8 degree celsius. Experts expect that both vaccines will soon enter the market, who will get the corona vaccine 1st . Fisher, that is the big question. Whos going to get it 1st, but i would just like to sort of ask another question before we move to that very big question of a little, think of a moment of comparing sort of reference to come up with a vaccine with the space race of the 1950 s. And the 1960 s. Is that a valid and useful comparison as well . It is really going fast, but i will be careful with comparisons like that. And also titles like warp speed and things like that. I think thats difficult because it might suggest that things like security and controls are not being taken to seriously as it normally is. And that is not the case. We are speeding up the process, but mostly by speeding up the burial crissy and organizational things. And not with the controls and security, people can be sure that security is the highest priority and throughout the whole process to be assume nothing. Yes, i absolutely agree. So its not a question whose 1st Important News is that we will have a vaccine available. So thats important and raise a competition of course, economic aspects involved. This is huge markets, unfortunately, which will then also limited distribution of the vaccine globally. But important is that we will have a vaccine and this to specs in is obviously working. And thats the important use and we should focus on that and not on aspects of competition. The question on security is an important one. So there is a standard under which these trials are being conducted and these standards have not moved. So as you official just sets, the bureaucracy has changed. So things that happened one after the other are put in parallel. So we are getting a faster approval of the drug. But safety is very important and no company has any interest of a safety concern because at, as soon as this happens, this company will not be able to hit the market. Its interesting though, i dont want to be too negative about the aspects of competition. I was listening very closely to professor charlene from biotech. There in the report. He says, we are not alone. We will contribute to controlling the pandemic. And we will do it with other companies. This seems to be a real sort of, at least in part a real mode, mood of cooperation. Yes, thats very important. Many companies are thinking about is does have a platform. So the messenger in our vaccine is one, but there are other platforms as well. Thats a very likely are working as well, and we need to understand which vaccine is better for whom. But yes, this is not one company and many, many scientific groups of across the globe are working on this. And thats reassuring to some to tell us a little bit more about the logistical challenges of their aircraft, refrigeration. Hygiene security guy could go on. Yeah, its going to change the way the world works. You mean in terms of the distribution of the vaccine or in terms of developing at the distribution . I really mean in terms of the logistics of distribution when the boat scene is there, its going to have a huge impact on, on how we trade on logistics on, on supply chains and so on. Yes. So, i mean, the big question will be how to get the vaccine out to the whole world, because we have read the need to vaccinate as many people on the whole globe as possible. And i say that ive lost my truck. Im sorry. Could you get your, i dont know if you were asking about that, about the, for example, big issues, the refrigeration, so we heard to be exceeding that needs to be stored at minus 70 degrees. So for example, we can deliver that to our general practitioners to give the vaccination, whereas the mature, no one thats possible is because there is only these 2 to 8 degrees. So there are many issues, but in particular, because we have to vaccinate. So many people do that. Will this be localized with doctors . Will this be in specific centers . How do we get it to africa if we need this refrigeration, all of that . So theres so many issues. I cant name them all and i dont know them all, but there are plenty you come back to the question, whos going to be of the front of the law . Yeah. Whats being suggested now by the ethic committee, you know, and the sheiko in germany at least, is that its going to be the persons who have the highest risk of developing a severe disease and take care of them. And then its the ones who sustain our normal lives, of fire workers, police officers, teachers, and those kind of people. So its going to be like a risk assessment. And after that distribution, this all sounds really good in russia. The point is that the, from the view of the question is the bottom line here is that its a question about, you know, whos going to be saved and you mean that internationally or both national and international. Lets begin nationally that well, at 1st its going to be the attempt to save the ones who have the highest risk. Thats going to be like a matrix where you see the different categories that people fall into because of diseases because of age. And because of their job, maybe its going to be a very difficult assessment of the house about a and youve been working with germanys Ethics Council on the the criteria that will be adopted to make these kind of very difficult decisions. Tell us about that process. So the outcome was already mentioned by your yes, so thats exactly what we just heard. The process was a very new one because usually one committee is asked who is here . Its very important to get all people together. So as many people as possible as many expertises, so we have standing. So thats the vaccination committee. That leaves usually have. They came together then the scientific organization, the apology now, and we had the german ethics county council. Several people from all organizations came together and freely and discussed what would be the best approach. So i think we have a very solitary commendation for politicians that was then also back up, at least for the german Ethics Council. But all the members of the council, i want to come back to the point though, that when were talking about lives, when were talking about human beings, were really not talking about intimate objects. Were talking about people with their hearts and souls and emotions and lives that makes your job very, very difficult. Indeed. Yes, its difficult. On the other hand, i think we have criteria. So we have certain criteria like the urgency we want solidarity in the society. We want to prevent serious harm and damage. And if you look at these criteria, you can come up with a catalogue of criteria. And then the primary one is a reading to prevent to prevent the severe outcomes of the death of people. And that was fairly easy target of strategy that people are discussing is why dont we vaccinate the young and then we can take it this way. And theres one big objection to that. And that is that we dont know whether the vaccine will prevent the transmission of the virus from one person to the, to the other. So whether you can, maybe you will still be infectious, although you wont have a severe disease. And in that sense, it does not make sense to vaccinate the young 1st because they dont suffer the hardest consequences. How much does it matter or explain for us so much of matters that a very large number of people within a Population Group like germany are vaccinated when it is possible. It is very important to stop the pandemic locally that enough people get vaccinated. So currently we expect in 50 to 60 percent of the population will do the, the biology of the virus. We have other viruses where we need a higher number of people getting vaccinated. The other important aspect, maybe moving to the International Viewpoint is that is a global pandemic. So Global Health is in the porton aspect a pandemic by definition, affects several countries. So we have a Global Crisis in front of us. And unfortunately now, because of the economy related only the rich country can afford to have the vaccinations are all what we just discussed is for countries who can afford to have to vaccination. So we need to also take care of countries who cannot afford to stay in certain aspects where part of the vaccination will be given to countries 20 percent and some settings other countries are not participating. And in this approach, such as the united states, but we need to make sure that globally, we attack the pandemic and we allow countries who cannot afford the drug to actually get the drug and then give the drug to the people. One thing i dont quite understand which we need to clarify before those of that International Level is these different, these decisions that are being made in germany . Are they made by germany alone or are they made on the european level . Theres a good question and certainly there are discussions within the European Community, and europe itself has bought certain certain vaccines from, from companies. But i think that from the beginning the European Community has not discussed as has europe. We have been discussing within countries. We have measures for each of the countries, but there is no really like a European Task force that you see every day in the television, explaining that this is the way in for europe. So there could be more like a common the cation aspect, and also acting together as a European Community. And you have an answer to that question. I think its very, very important because yeah, europe is, you know, its a broad community. I would also see it as if it did get to just servicing the back seat. It is really important that all the european countries, if not all the countries all over the world start working together and making sure that theres going to be a fair distribution. Because there is going to be countries, so dont have the money to buy enough vaccines and we, as the richer countries have to make sure that they will get some vaccine too. Because if we dont act internationally globally, we wont stop the pandemic and it will be brought back to us if we dont stop it all over. So we all have to work together. So im sure the questions to which you must have been addressing in your discussions is no, we really try to come to a european way, at least in the sense that we exchange. So yesterday Bioethics Forum by National Ethics committees of Different Countries from britain participated in particular. And we had this welcome from the European Union and we discussed these issues. So its really important to exchange on that and to come to a common strategy. On the other hand, we all know how difficult it is, although we know what will be the best to get europe to act as one person asked. And one thing is, what are we discussing . And the other one thing is, what are the National States willing to do, and that only time will show. But i think the aim is to come to a concerted action. And to be a skirt you were talking about the International Aspects of all this. India and south africa, i believe, have already come out and said that there should be no peytons on at least some of the vaccines that come out. So they can be locally manufactured. Is that a realistic route to go down . Its a good suggestion, how realistic it is, is difficult to say because development of the vaccine, obviously cause a lot of money. And many taxpayers have paid a lot of money into the development of the drugs. So to release, to put the patent right away, obviously is a discussion that is important in terms of addressing the global aspect of the pandemic. I personally think it should be made available to these countries so they can develop them themselves. Thats a very important aspect. But of course, these companies say, hey, i developed this so please at least pay me my share that i have invested you know, think again, im interested in your contribution there because its such a fundamental question. Its really a difficult ethical question because the taxpayer is also invested into the development and the solution we have to do it this way or that way, but one thing is clear, we really need the whole world to participate. Because take this example. Its like when you take antibiotics, a company for one part of your body because otherwise, once you stop taking it, it will come back to syria. The disease will come back from that part. So we really depend on getting the whole world on board. Its not just an altruistic action, its a real necessity. But how to achieve that with human personalities. We know how difficult it is in democracies and also not democracies to work together. We will see and we can just hope and continue to work on it. Ok, well the normally cool, rational consensual angloamerican pulled no punches in the debate over how to combat the pandemic. Here a few words from the chancellor in a very reflective mood nevertheless, and im well aware of this, the measures restricting all contact are and remain an imposition, a democratic imposition. I have to say that implementing them was one of the most difficult decisions of my time in office to be talking about how shes been approaching the challenges of the pandemic with the chancellor so far, because shes been viewed by very many people here in germany by a significant portion of people here in germany as too strict to taking too much control peoples lives. I dont think that the measures are to strict if you go to other countries down much, much stricter. Were actually in germany. So we can do things that other countries on the possible right now to do important to communication. And i think here we have to communicate somewhat more regularly, not every week or every fall weeks and new information to really talk to the people. Explain whats going on, explain what will happen over the next months and what it means to have a vaccine and what it means actually distributed, the vaccine to 50000000 people or more. So those communication things are very important. And so hopefully this will start soon. So that was the word that you mentioned to be before the show when we were talking. That was your view. That was a major concern for you. Communication. Yes, no, thats really true because we in germany have been really well off compared to other countries. Our infection rates are not this high, so people dont see how bad it can be. Not everyone watches, international news. They havent seen the lorries of transporting death people away in italy and so on. We havent met this many people who have died from it ourselves. Right from, from coby 1900. And so in that sense, its really important that we get this communication across so that people really understand why its necessary. Thats the problem and theres no glory in prevention. Yes. If you dont, if you prevent something, then you dont see how bad it would have been. And everyone says, yeah, so what, it wasnt this bad, but thats only because we took the right measures and im really concerned and hope it will continue to follow those rules. You and i have been here before we do believe this is think of this terrible, 6 weeks ago, 8 weeks ago. Im not sure were talking about exactly the same problem about people who believe in sort of both. Its all a conspiracy. Its all made up by somebody you know, where is that going now is, is my sense is that that problem is becoming more grave for german politics becoming more influential in the debate. Yeah, i mean, i think we have to see that its still a small minority of those people. We cant say its the german public really believing these things or not believing in the truth, but i also see it as its becoming more. I think scientists even call that emotional contagion. And i think that is something that is, that is dangerous, that people who are in a bad situation right now and maybe have fears what their future is going to be like. And if they can exist with their, with their, with their job and everything. So it is dangerous that those people are going to find a way out in their head by believing those people that there is a conspiracy going on or something. So i think it is dangerous and we need to really communicate well in order not to get those people too loud to be the scientists has the world of science. Had a fair deal here in germany because youve been working 16 hour days, and there are people who say this and statements of like many working very hard to including the medical staff and hospitals and scientists, those developing the vaccines, the Public Health experts epidemiology, us, journalists, working very hard to, to deal with aspects of the pandemic. And its both a pleasure to work in this area. Certainly its my area. Im an epidemiologist, but also its very frustrating because we dont see a good solution happening next week or will it will last for 4. While what i would like to add is that we see these protests, we see people ignoring or saying that pandemic is not true. The big part in the middle is not seen. And those are quiet, just behaving the taking measures seriously to have some concerns about the not mentioned just because they think like, oh, then people think im in that pocket that im saying this pandemic is not true. So we have to also concentrate in this big middle part, and thats actually the part, but also the part that makes me optimistic. Thats the part of working with all these measures. And likely those people will get the vaccine when available. People grateful for all the good work thats been done here in germany . No, i dont think so. Its just harder to see. I dont think people are grateful, but people are very sensitive to issues of fairness for example. So we need the communication to make clear that that isnt an unfair distribution of these restrictive measures, for example, across the population. And that there are reasons why its now the restaurants and schools, something. So that sort of communication is really important, but it has to be a said, the middle ground, i would say is with us in this with these rules, but you really need to make sure that the fairness is there. And thats a difficult task. Im not being the politicians in getting that across. I mean, youre organization is involved in developing a moral compass for the politicians. Just give us a quick moral compass. We know we have taken small and big problems and were discussing them with a group of 24. 00 colleagues and then we try to come up with compromising recommendations of how things could be handled where we took in contrast to the petitions. We dont have this time the time to, to look at a situation from different angles and perhaps thats richer than just the opinion of one person who will then act. But in the end, its the politicians who have to decide its a really cool job. I have to say that many, many interesting colleagues and, you know, you come in with a fixed opinion and then you think, oh, theres another facet which i didnt see. And i think this is really important that we have an institution like that that we can for that wonderful, really good, very, very positive note. Thank you very much for joining us here on rather to the point is the show the body the body the back of the boat. The boat the bigger the be the big charge up. Cattle to the Ball Movement in the bowl choices. Put the bread the few minutes long ago. Go play looks is quite as good as it sinks the globe to understand the world better. We need to take a closer look experience knowledge to morrow, to look from the ghetto to place every morning. Go into those bobbing. Why . Despite coming from a new family, the pop star wants to become president of the trees or god doesnt meet the long lost love, credible story of bobby ward. The book starts december 10th on the w. A. A mans game play. The blame his wrist band playing the beat sudras, played cello player, should listen to the show. Love the brits playing along. Love playing respect business to tell me the news live from berlin or corona virus vaccine could be now one step closer to us. Pharma giant finds there and its a german popped up buying on take a virus for emergency approval for their back seen in the united states. They say they could begin sending out doses within hours of approval. Also coming up to germany, mox, 75 year