Thanks very much for joining us my guest today here in the studio are Soraya Sarhaddi nelson from k c w radio maine who says the results show how disconnected American Voters are from be jhumpa and from politicians pollsters and journalists. Also with us is mostly secret freelance journalist and currently a fellow at the American Academy here in burlington beyond use that a deadly pandemic months of racial upheaval and scandal after scandal has done little to diminish trumps popularity polls and a warm welcome suitor Matthew Carney each next chief europe correspondent for politico who believes whoever wins in the end the result shows that neither candidate or party has a clear convincing mandate. Thank you all for being here great stuff id like to begin with you Soraya America has voted to walk one leading financial broadsheet cold a big us election that resolves little that seems like an option fed description of where we do you agree absolutely and it could become pounded depending on the congressional make up going to be very hard to get anything done and there are just so many varying narratives or varying agenda you know its going to be very hard for the next president to be able to latch on to those especially his joe biden who has said that hes going to bring the country back together why are we still waiting for a result the heart of it is because its an historic turnout i mean the numbers are just huge including the mailed in ballots which of course have depending on the state have some time left before they can be counted so all of that when you have a system that is largely handled by volunteers in 50 different states with 50 different systems you know it takes time to count them up whos going to win. The tough question. We as we speak now. Biden has taken taken back michigan wisconsin. And appears poised to win. Nevada and arizona he seems to have the clearest path towards 270. 00 Electoral College votes you talk about a clear path but it is a system that doesnt really appear to work for europeanize why is it so complicated. We have to look to the firm as the constitution for that i think but we have an Electoral College system. That for whatever reason is weighted toward parts of the country that are less populous and so it often does happen that. The greater number of people vote for the candidate who has the fewer number of Electoral College votes and weve seen that in previous elections i think i just want to run the question by you why you know why is this is them still in place the Electoral College nobody really understands its in the postal vote isnt it is a sort of an opportunity to coal for old you know well i think a couple things 1st of all i would argue that the Electoral College system does work and has worked for over 230 years it has happened in the past it happened in 2000 and it happened in 2016 that the candidate who won the most votes did not win the election but the point of the Electoral College system is to have a regional balance in the country and its important to remember that the United States is twice as big as the European Union in terms of its geography its a country of 300000000 people more than 300000000 people and they wanted to avoid a system the framers didnt i think that they could sort of sense this was going to happen back then even that the country was going to expand westward and they wanted to avoid a situation where you had Large Population centers determining who was going to run the federal government and it is its a federal system like germany and they tried to create this balance barack obama won 2 terms as president with the Electoral College and with a majority of the votes and i think that if joe biden wins. Today were in the coming days that this talk about doing away with the with the Electoral CollegeElectoral College will probably dissipate i think that the big problem this time was because of the pandemic you have many more mail in ballots than we normally do thats one problem the other problem is that the president of the United States is aggressively so i think a long time. Any of these military fascinating background but it you know you giving the impression that all is growing and rosy in the u. S. A couple of days after an election where were still bringing about hands and saying where the heck is this going you know what i think it is normal in the american system and i think its not normal to europeanize as as you said its not but the fact is that the responsibility for elections in United States lies with the 50 individual states and they are allowed to structure those elections in the way that they want there are a surprise said mainly volunteers who are working here to count the votes it is actually i think its very positive for democracy because it is a grassroots effort and when when people see as we saw this morning in my home state of arizona sort of groups of people out in front of the building where theyre counting the votes waiting trump flags and you know theyre carrying guns is a lot of people in arizona do anyway that you know tends to to worry a lot of european viewers i think american viewers and a very good news but i do think that it is also maybe a little bit part of the kind of circus atmosphere that often surrounds american elections well i dont agree about the Electoral College i do think that that will remain a Sticking Point as somebody who is a california voter i mean i feel disenfranchised frankly by the system that is very antiquated that was created 2030 years ago and i think with the with what weve seen with this election with the mail and ballots the overwhelming you know the ability to do voting in different ways on that because the idea was but behind the Electoral College was to make sure that all states were represented but you can reach the voters now were not talking about going by horseback to you know some polling station god knows where you know fighting all kinds of dangerous elements although there are still dangerous in some places nowadays when you want to vote but but i do think that there are going to i mean that theres going to be pressure to end this i really dont its just a very strange system when you have a popular vote that goes for a candidate and then they still cant be elected because the electoral. College system is what prevails ok just one second i mean i think it is fair to say that the complications of the system will partly what prompted President Trump to come out and make his extraordinary speech claiming to be the winner of the poll lets listen into that and then talk about that a little bit. We want the law to be used in a proper manner so well be going to the u. S. Supreme court we want all voting just. We dont want them to find any ballots at 4 oclock in the morning and add them to the list ok. Its a very so. Its a very sad moment to me this is a very sad moment and we will win this as far as im concerned we already have. Most of your take on what was going on with the president that what was his message. What i hear from the president s words is someone who is path to victory has narrowed but who seems intent on riling up his base to do god knows what to preserve. His voice in the Public Discourse as biden kind of and just closer closer to victory. Theres a lot of talk among journalists and pundits about framing the narrative and a lot of people have been saying it theyd see it sort of framing the narrative of. What a critic narrative is not how it feels to you i mean the president comes out and says you know he almost himself declares himself would have since when does one guy choose their president of the United States we talk about challenges to democracy a kind of naked appeal to stop counting votes of american rich or voters does seem to be leaning to me towards. Kind of authority tarion. Kind of rule various things that hes done to to kind of stoke violence at the polls to to call out people who. To show up at the polls with with their arms on display appears to me to be something that is that is against totally against what we consider a working democracy. A president ial 2 in the making some say regardless of whether donald trump you know wins another time in office or not its not cheap talk its not extreme talk i think its expel the bit extreme i mean i do think that the United States has systems in place to prevent one man from sort of staying in the white house i mean even though we may see the the visual putting up of barriers around the white house i thought that was very symbolic i mean maybe it wasnt intended that way but maybe it was intended that way but i honestly dont think that i mean you know he donald trump talks the way donald trump talks thats part of his appeal you know hes seen as a leader by his followers and i think thats meant for them when he says that whether it even lets say for a moment he does want to stay and will stay no matter what i dont think those around him are going to allow that to happen because of the institutions including the Supreme Court well i agree and i think its interesting that he actually referred to the Supreme Court in that clip so even he respects the authority of the Supreme Court here i dont believe at all that the Supreme Court is going to just rubber stamp whatever he wants it to do and its not even clear what he would be asking them or what he would be challenging and again its worth remembering that this situation is not in his hands now its in the hands of the states where these ballots are being counted its their authority the federal government has no authority over them loses the count is he going to go i think hell go absolutely hell go and i think. It will be as easy as that because even people in his own party the leader of the republicans in the Senate Mitch Mcconnell said of course were going to have a normal transition of power just like weve had since the founding of the republic theres no reason to think that we wouldnt do that and i think that many republicans actually the sort of Establishment Republicans would be happy to see him go you know i mean they they they dont seem to be particularly happy with his with his style either and the other thing is that theyve already got most of what they wanted they have control the Supreme Court now they have control more or less of the federal judiciary i think they would be more than happy to see the back of donald trump interesting lets try and capture the mood of the time by listening to 4 american voices. Im here as a hoarder president i think you know. This by the democrats but all. Credible dobby i am very frightened for america very bright and i love our democracy and love america and i know it has nothing to do with the party i just want somebody to look after her to my. Very important. Chump is doing nothing for us so that hes going to have anything more on the control than what. Trump does i followed voted for the greatest president in history donald j. Trump. The best president s in history donald trump what saw his signal achievements. Changing the way president s talk i mean i dont know hes been hes been able to shake up Transatlantic Relations hes been able to to bring back some of the jobs that he said he was going to bring up i mean i dont want to sound like a trump their friend but but he has definitely left a mark on not just america but the world and i dont think thats going away i mean its not being swept away into the trash bin of history as monica hesse wrote in the Washington Post but thats why people also vote for him because of these accomplishments which i think you know often get get lost in the interest of the american the accomplishments you had a plural a plurality of accomplishments that im interested yeah i think this is you know exactly why his voters are coming back why his base really wants him to remain he cut taxes dramatically. He he also did away with a lot of regulations that was good for the Business Community he raised military spending dramatically these are all things that he promised to do in the campaign of 2016 hes taking a tough stance on trade with china now we have might all think that these are not good policies or many many people might think that it you know that these are are are are wrong headed but this is exactly what he promised to do and he he followed through also promised to bring the deficit down to 0 and that hasnt gone so well because the country has a higher debt than it ever has mostly to feel comfortable with up with a lot. Its difficult for me to hear those accomplishments and not think about. Children of migrant families who were separated at the border and not think about. Trumps open acknowledgement of White Nationalist groups and not think about the kind of voice of the voices of the voice of support that he gave to White Nationalists and charlottesville theres just so many things that i see as a point. Really that make it difficult for me to. To consider those policies as as were supporting the right yeah im more inclined to mosey said i mean i think that yes while he did bring more spending to the military what hes done to nato for example and moving of troops and even like with afghanistan this forcing through of the peace talks that are not necessarily going anywhere i i think thats a real you know issue or problem and so i dont think that the changes hes brought i mean you know with the tax cuts and everything thats fine he has done that he has made a change that i think we will feel for for many decades to come but i dont think that these werent necessarily successes this is the this is a subjective analysis and im just saying objectively speaking if youre trying to understand why so many people have voted for him why you know essentially half of america is still supporting donald trump its because when they look at what he did and i forgot to mention the judges on the court this was a huge thing for his base that he managed to put 3 new Supreme Court justices into place who are going to you know take a much different view of issues like abortion potentially and other things that are really core to the to the christian base i mean ill give you this a Supreme Court but i dont think its objective analysis to say that afghanistan is falling apart or that the deal with iran the situation with iran is somehow better you know its better im saying this is exactly what he promised to do he said that he wanted to get out of the iran dealers signaled that he was going to get out of iran to which he did and im not saying whether that was good or bad but he also said that he wanted to end the socalled endless wars he hasnt managed to do that but he has kind of voided an escalation in both iraq and afghanistan and iraq and he hasnt started any new wars so i think its worth remembering you know people are wondering well especially in europe well how could anybody vote for this guy well look at his record look at what he promised to do and you might disagree with. His policies and you might think that you know he did a lot of other bad things but if you look at what his base wanted and what he promised his base he delivered for them leading german correspondent came out the other day and said that he has done much more for peace in the middle east than barack obama for example well thats not a very you know high bar to be honest so. I just want to talk about so i just want somebody to look after america and to look after our democracy that was what woman said to those we just heard of that report with those 4 statements and im just intrigued to know and well talk about that now is that somebody who could heal America Joe Biden lets watch this report 1st of all men will talk about joe biden. Joe biden was the youngest candidate ever elected to the u. S. Senate in 2009 obama named him his Vice President biden a man with decades of political experience. As a president ial candidate hes presented himself as the antithesis of trump. We choose hope over fear unity over Division Science over fiction and yes truth over a lie ill be a president will stand with our allies and friends and make it clear to our adversaries the days of cozying up to dictators is over its estimated that nearly another 210000 americans could lose their lives by the end of the year. Nuff no more. Lets just sit partisanship aside lets end the politics and follow the scientists bad job of a president to hear. Most and can job i feel america. Does america need joe biden to heal it. This is the role hes being cast in yeah i look at the returns as they exist right now with with joe biden with about 70000000 votes and then on top about 68000000 votes and see a very stark divide. That is perhaps beyond what what what joe biden can do to heal i mean i see joe biden as a palpable kind of figure who many kind of diverse groups could unite around but he does not strike me as someone who is. Strident or or or visionary or even kind of truly progressive so i do i do wonder if he is often described as a man of great empathy. That that goes a long way coming from where weve been in the last 4 years someone who was able to kind of understand that other human beings have. Feelings and needs and this is kind of not entirely driven by you know personal ambition. That will certainly make a difference but but still that divide seems so great. That i wonder i really wonder. If. If he can if he can manage it so i what are your personal insights on joe biden tell us about. I mean you know for me as a woman you know as a. Woman you know im a person of color i just its another white man old white man telling us what to do its hard not to feel that way you know even though i do think that he will restore i believe anyway based on what hes saying that hes going to restore some dignity to this office you know that there arent going to be these harsh tones in terms of relationships i think Relationship Building with our allies is going to improve i think Transatlantic Relations will improve under him because he will go back to the format i think that people are used to but i dont know that he i dont think anyone can come in and solve anything in 4 years and its these problems are long in the making this is not just about donald trump or and what he brought and so hes got sort of taught so that he doesnt have a great record when it comes to the you know we have the achievements of donald trump when you look at joe biden 55 decades in u. S. Politics and its a short list and you sound like donald trump you know i think hes actually achieved you know a lot and i mean but he is going to have to spend the next 4 years trying to undo some of the things i mean you know the United States not being in the pair of the climate paris im sorry the paris climate accords which yes which are the november 4th is when america officially pulled out it was sort of salt in the wound of the actions on the 3rd you know these are things that he has to sort of undo in it that takes time and hes not. Going to be able to do that if he becomes president because of a congress thats likely to be divided you talk about the fact that hes a man that the other candidate was a man that both males of high age. Is this going to be a one term presidency of joe biden does come into the the strategy is that he will then be followed by his Vice President i think he always planned on it being a one term i mean that that is what hes indicated i think it may be a one term presidency for democrats frankly its just the bar is very high and as weve mentioned you know president obama had a difficult time during his 6 years when the senate was controlled by the republicans doesnt seem likely that that would change now. You mention 2 words in one sentence biden and legitimacy and you seem to be suggesting that he would not have legitimacy all fullish to mysie in office i think you have legitimacy if he if he wins the election but he wont have a strong mandate which i think is what a lot of people were hoping for especially in the us among the democrats they wanted a socalled blue wave that would give them control of both houses plus the presidency allowing for a very Ambitious Program of reforms i think its what a lot of people in europe were also hoping for to kind of revive the Transatlantic Alliance to do away with all of these tensions over trade to do more on the environment and i think you know biden will reverse the decision to pull out of the paris climate deal but beyond that its going to be i think very difficult for him with a divided congress to make much headway and hes going to be under constant attack from republicans in the senate who can block a lot of you know what hes trying to do and he still has to deal with the fox news onslaught and all of these things so i think he will be very exposed on the other and i think that he also just because of his personal demeanor he does bring a degree of normalcy back to the presidency and hopefully back to american politics that that has been missing and if that is his main achievement you know thats thats better better than nothing. Given what you were just saying about donald trump does that give you some comfort that vision of what joe biden can achieve in the years to come if he does become the next u. S. President you know i do take some comfort in that i think that that that even with a divided congress and the difficulty is that he will have making policy changes that that. President trump has been so disruptive to normalcy and international ations and domestic relations and really just the way people feel every day having him as their leader that i think that it will be it will be there will be a collective sigh of relief just the donald trump is not in office when you talk about donald trump being so disruptive. Are you as sure as matthew is for appears to be i think that this is somehow going to play out peacefully in the days and weeks to come. I hear the claims that he wont leave but its difficult for me to imagine that kind of scenario i mean its just it doesnt it doesnt feel realistic to me that he will not leave the office i cant imagine that it is he just going to sit there and no ones it just doesnt so yeah it doesnt really it doesnt really make sense to me so yeah i dont expect a coup detat or whatever that were going to have to go in with or the some is going to go in with guns to bring about or whatever i think on the other hand laid out be an optimist about it its a great example of democracy all of this is unfolding before our eyes were watching these counts come in Live Television you can see the people counting the votes this isnt happening in some backroom you know its not bell reuss where theyre throwing the ballots out the back window and that kind of thing and you know well have a result its his its his right as the candidate to challenge the result to ask for a recount in wisconsin that he is within that margin and you know if the courts have to decide in the end the courts will have to decide yes but you know thats the way it works. It was. Fascinating views fascinating insights incredible and the dust hasnt settled on the u. S. Election quite yet so yeah it will lets wait and see what happens in the days to come thank you for joining us here on the program to the point to come back next time around until im 5 by. The. Up. Up im a. What secrets why behind small. Discover new adventures in 360 degree. And explore fascinating World Heritage sites. T. W. World heritage 368 get me out now. Grappling with some tricks. To express a feeling. I am not very creative yet but i would love to be considered an artist monday looking for new perspectives on the door and not rigidly placed breaks with the camera doing things differently. Come to the place where we reflect on society constantly. Come on to talk. About efficiency when i arrived here i slept with 6 people in a room. It was hard i wish. I even got white hairs that. Benjamin language never got this gives me a little but communicate to instruct the flame you want to know their story of my sons birth fighting and reliable information for margaret. This is g w news live from berlin another day of waiting final votes are still being counted in the race for the white House Democrat joe biden his wife being his lead over President Trump the message from biden supporters count every vote as their candidate leads the all important tally of Electoral College votes but its not over yet. Im im stopped the count is what Trump Supporters and the truck came teen are saying the president is mounting a series of legal