d. If anybodys been trapped in an elevator 20 that its could be a pretty long time right ed alone. Trapped in an elevator. For 20 minutes not knowing whats going to happen not knowing where you wore suits of sensory deprivation. Think about that is your life 20 minutes out of now or not and the only guy on the intercom is nothing i was trying to get you out i was keeping he. Is your communications. Thats existence. Legal i mean one of the beliefs. Begins with. But it does not in news. It will not end until every terrorist group. Has been found. Dumped. In the street. I think weve lost more than one term. So you know empires in decline resort to torture and i think it gives them the and mission of mouse street and dominance and control by torturing essentially we blind ourselves but we could in fact create a Democratic Society which actually has consistently valuable and effective techniques to fight terror the fact that we dont is more an expression of our own anxieties and fears. Socalled confessed interrogation techniques used by the u. S. Officials were basically designed as techniques to break down the human mind and therefore also the body because theyre very connected. And leave no physical traces and cynics. Stream li. Destructive practice torture. On of course on those who receive this pain and suffering but also on the society that becomes a society of cruelty what weve done is weve not so much lost the war on torture as weve won the war on democracy and that through terrorizing a population over a period of decades said that theres nobody in this country who didnt grow up with some bogeyman some danger 1st it was communism then it was terrorism. Obviously. In many facets of what is generally called the cold war. Which communist policy is force. But they had no time to see a gauge of any political activity or any intelligence to it it was not approved at the highest level. There was a concern that emerged the 1st start of the cold war in the late 19th wars that the soviets had cracked the code of human consciousness. That they knew how to apply pressure upon the human mind and break the human mind and it was that that set off this whole pursuit that little tamil and to the creation of the doctrine of psychological torture this was a time of the brainwashing scare there was show trials in Eastern Europe and hungry in poland which. Arouse a lot of concern in the west because people seem to be confessing to crimes that they hadnt committed. Most importantly was the trial of cardinal mines and skiing and hungering buns as he was already and after all were 2 quite famous because he was known for having resisted the nazis and their occupation of congress. And then after the war he became the card on the primitive church. They arrested him they can find him this kid is a big interest but he became a kind of target of the regime. And then he was put on trial work humbert claim for incest to the charges against him and there was this fear in washington that prince of the church and we have a man known for his courage under nazi pressure that if he could be broken clearly the soviets were session of techniques. As mind control far as it starts in the 1950 s. Was a project of that involved a 1000000000. 00 a year. There was a formal creation of british than in american cooperation at the highest levels in order to mobilize the able scientists of these 3 countries in order to kind of crack the code of women consciousness. To clone the wolf for medical doctors for Cornell University medical school in new york city. They got access. To some of the more classified material on people that us came from the soviet union and now been tortured in the service and. Also was a very well known neurologist he had a personal relationship with allen dulles the head of the cia and with the human ecology fine wolf offered to this cia a sense lay a friends in order to Study Questions of brainwashing what theyd discovered. Was 11. 00 of the 2 foundational techniques in the cia doctrine a psychological torture they discovered. Selfinflicted pain if you force a human being to stay in a certain position especially a position that puts a little stress on way comments or muscles or bones joints it doesnt take very long for the pain involved to become absolutely excruciating but nobody is laying that your finger on you you are doing it to yourself. That was one of the its the over technique i discovered was from the day of the fine medical research. There was work it was the chair of the psychology and the go to university in canada. Students volunteered to participate in the study of Human Behavior under extreme prolonging monotony their hands and arms were softly covered to muffle the sense of touch. Or strife subdued by a mass comfortable barons quiet and yet it was impossible for most of these duties to take it for more than 24. 00 or 48 hours sensory deprivation really is a way of producing a dream and not its are a bush very unsteady worst and worst summer aside to talk about cruelty. And what they said was that the degree of boredom became intolerable and was. Once again said as bad as anything that the hitler ever done to any of us such. Victims as we know from almost any basic medical understanding human contact is what makes us human and the and they will a person to have a sense of normalcy in their lives and when they are completely isolated from any human contact and often kept in this sensory isolation you will literally easily become severely mentally impaired. Became a pit consoled the cia continued to work for them is really for general psychological torture. That project funded another guy and killed him doctor on camera. On camera. And since it was. It was just a monstrous. Thing in the 1st psychotherapy i was just crying crying crying. It was hopeless i didnt know what to expect they said i was going to the psychiatric ward. You bet that man that cameron thats you and cameron yes i met him and we were always terrified of him why we also fear we all had a fear of him and we didnt want to him to notice us because whatever he did it would never there was a pace and put them the patient was always screaming these are the days and i was obviously a professor ewen cameron was a very famous psychiatry as t. Was head of the American Psychiatric association and the world Psychiatric Association he was the top of the field at the same time he seemed pretty much willing to do anything and the for the cia to find a doctor who didnt have limits in a nearby capital with lots of patients to work with lost as as subjects was somebody they were interested in supporting patients would come then. With ordinary and psychological emotional problems theyd sign their waivers and they would just object to this bizarre urgency of extreme sensory deprivation and isolation for for up to a month. One of his favorite things was he had a sort of a football helmet with a tape recorder in it it would play a tape and look up to 500000 times say things like my mother hates me and he would let the brain with rogue stench of deprivation and kind of psychological emotional assault well. Whats working i mean its garbage. What he did was he would put people under massive electric shock and he would give it to them and for one bases along with what he called sleep their way his ideal was one sure way to brain clean stupid white bad to say the a buried behavior in the bad ideas the ideas that were messing up peoples minds and you could program in their ideas d. I was 1st hospitalized. I was about 60 or 60 half the doctors pushed me into the sleep theyre big. And that was it for about 3 weeks in in a sort of a deep sleep but i dont remember getting up to go to the washroom i dont i just remember that the doctor came in occasionally to feed me and that was it and then suddenly after a while there was another case and they came in and she was an older one insists like in the other bed when i started its wake up i saw these patients and these patients were in tube some of them they had earphones and headphones i dont know if they did any of that to me because when i was the 1st 3 weeks i dont know what happened but this was the pattern in. This years doctrine of psychological torture that the developed. Through research in the death of the 19 fifties and was codified in the work on intelligence interrogation manual. As to basic techniques on which all the rest of the procedures to run oneness sensory deprivation and the other self inflicted pain. The cia trained allied agencies in the techniques so in effect you know knowing about dissemination about if you just send these techniques to other armies could you take an ordinary individual like a draftee or recruit and make a person become an effective interrogator. And it seems that milgram experiment was likely part of his project. But i learned of incidents such as the destruction of millions of men women and children perpetrated by the nazis in world war 2 i was a possible ask myself the ordinary people will courteous and decent in everyday life can act callously in you mainly without any limitations of conscience. Under what conditions would a person Obey Authority who commanded actions and went against conscience these are exactly the questions that i want to investigate it yeah university. At the moment sperm a very simply was similar to torture this was one not all the research weve been describing is the impact of interrogation upon the subject. Had another agenda the impact of interrogation upon the interrogator if he were to indicate a wrong answer he would say wrong then tell him the number of balls youre going to get and. Then give him the punishment. And read the correct word pair once he got an ordinary people who fit by all the regular scales very normal americans and then he subjected them under false color to just doing what he called an educational experiment in trying to encourage people to apply ever higher voltages as a false patient kept on getting making mistakes. But. In fact milgram was able to encourage at least in his 1st experiments i think close to 70 percent to go on to apply highly dangerous and sometimes fatal shocks to get that man thinking that. And he i mean that. You know i mean i mean time did i learn a license not we must go on until i dont know ive refused to take the responsibility again i heard that. Im not meet under our. International essential if you continue teaching this to lead to life here and i mean gigo you get it wrong you just to let him live. You know hes going to take responsibility for any happens and i dont know im responsible for anything that happens here continue. Next the slow. Dance trap music answer plays. Right. Under 95 mile. Ends. He did this simply with a very simple thing putting the person behind a wall and having a person with a White Lab Coat telling them that they needed to continue very ordinary people can be influenced by situations and its one of the implications of both the milgram experiment the zimbardo its. The Stanford Prison Experiment was i think a unique attempt to answer that question of what makes some people behave in a good way but id make some people behave in a bad way and so the idea was. Lets. Lets find an evil place and present everywhere in the world the evil places and lets kill this evil place was only good people. To get the students involved i had convinced the Palo Alto Police department to make a mock arrest of all the students who were going to be president. And then they came down to the basement of Stanford Psychology Department the place where the prison study was done. The idea is prison is made to feel inferior insignificant worthless the most important thing is to take away their name they become a number and of course given they have smocks it with no underpants theyre behind is showing. Like 1st hour and there it was humiliating was also brought was quick it was just you know take them off put this on and then i got dusted with baking soda which was supposed to be easy to delouse or. I was living in the cell what zimbardo did was a very cheap dollar cost of. The kind of thing that milgram was doing not only zimbardo. I think you know the guard called john wayne believed that ethics dont matter its the environmentalists are the sissel and thats not true all life is real life its. We need to get tougher with the prisoners. And it could well be that we were instructed by the experimenters to get tough in fact i dont think we considered ourselves to be a subject of the experiment we were merely a tool of the researchers to get the results they wanted from the real subjects which we thought were the prisoners and i decided to become the nastiest prison guard that i could make myself where i am wilder than oh god here it is funny or you want to sleep tonight. With the older yeah off yeah all of them. And then you use my head like a magic trick with. 345. I was responsible for coming up with all these routines that i would put the prisoners through where id have them stand in a line recites their numbers do pushups do jumping jacks. And i had never once stopped to think that these prisoners were suffering any harm or any damage were not or not beating anybody were just sort of applying psychological pressure on the bottom yet by. Their will. It harmed me how did it come. How does it harm just a thing that a lot. People can be right and yeah and let me in on some knowledge that ive never experienced 1st hand ive read about it ive read a lot about it but ive never experienced it firsthand ive never seen someone turn that way and i know youre a nice guy you know you wouldnt just what would you have. I dont know it might play out spectacularly in the military so the connections would be much further down the road it would be particularly. In the iraq war and in the setting up of get moer and all of that. And by the time you get to 2001 its already this cultural artifact and so it is going to be picked up by. By anyone for any permanent. Kind of people hell because condoms are not there because they stole because. Theyre not common criminals. Theyre enemy combatants and terrorists who are being detained for acts of war against our country and that is why different rules have to apply. And find. The continuity of the 6th order. If you look at a sketch of the cubicle and of the student volunteer at Mcgill University and then if you look forward to 2002 when the 1st al qaeda suspects are being confined at camp x. Ray a month on im over there and goggles gloves and earmuffs that look like god just like that 1957 sketch. After 911. 00 all of us working at ph our realized that there would very likely be a huge problem of interrogation gone wild meaning torture cruel inhuman and degrading to treatment. The use of extreme isolation was one of the remains of techniques that were employed by a fishel as interrogators and so forth literally starting all the way back in 2002 for many many days and that is just unbelievably destructive. And they began confining people they moved to. Having psychologists do interviews with patients as for initial flaws individual sources of trauma and security and then they they also discovered because they were done then and with muslims. Muslim males are. Upset by nudity and also by female physical contact and then dont. Race has always played a role in american torture its the american torture techniques are part of old military punishments punishments that were used on slaves. And. And you might find that strange but there was one area where slaves were never whipped but you use clean techniques on them so they didnt leave marks and that was if youre going to sell a slave because a slave that had wit marks means that they were not going to obey and so a clean slave was so got a higher price. The cotton industry in the southern delta states of the United States depended completely on torture. Over the course of 4 decades human beings by using their bodies as a technological form as a technological machine were able to multiply by 8 times the amount of cotton an individual person could pick in a single day so the use of torture is absolutely tied at the root from the very canny. 2 in these kinds of cases. Many people in the system. That the people who are imposing these conditions believe that ordinary punishment is too good for these people and a lot of it is about the other decide that religiously ethically. Nationally culturally its easier than it would be to sub would from your own community to do that so. In guantanamo. Secretary defense rumsfeld appointed a commander Jeffrey Miller whose job it was to extract information and Jeffrey Miller made up a cd or staffed it. And in flew to iraq and under the. With the permission of the commander there general sanchez the then camp and training sessions for the interrogators and the stuff at abu ghraib prison where he transmitted the guantanamo and techniques to the abu ghraib stuff basically the restraints were removed and they were told to get results the thing that became so clear is that what the United States was doing was not a secret it was hidden in plain sight it wasnt really until the photographs from abu ghraib were released which were just you know the tip of the iceberg of what was actually happening that people in this country began actually talking about it. But we didnt know it was exactly the right thing to do if i had to recommend all over again having left the exactly the right sequence of actions. That we didnt satisfy the. Service in the most not all of them i can look into whether one of those 1600 of them weve only seen up in about 20 maybe 30 is 1600 and they say the worst ones are are the ones with him saying. So in yes they were violating. Military regulations in what theyre doing but. They were operating within a system in which they were conditioned or structured in order to violate those laws when you arrived at the brave where you where what had happened there. Almost immediately after we arrived we were briefed that there was misconduct but we werent given details and the interrogators that i knew who had been there during that time didnt they didnt talk about it so we we didnt know if i learned everything through the news. We understood the geneva conventions to mean that absolutely you know you knew you couldnt you couldnt harm anybody in your care that your primary responsibility was their well being rather than putting you in distress but then we were confused and then of you know of course we got these memos from the Justice Department and from the pentagon. Authorizing the use of much more harsh techniques. We started docking those techniques when i was stationed in mosul among them were stress positions sleep deprivation. Inducing hypothermia. To stay and in any way we could put them in in distress using dogs this is this is a salute socalled slippery slope so that they take the gloves off policy allowed american interrogators from going from a certain list of techniques that were lets say allowed and even those were already torture to doing extreme things rape and sodomy and you know the most extreme forms of physical and psychological point tally. You can just torture somebody on a whim without knowing how to do it and the reality of course is that torture like any physical skill right requires training requires practice it requires an institutional setting a built environment really you need to have this institutionalized spates physical space in which you can perform torture we want you know we we wanted to be successful i was against the war you know the liberal i didnt vote for george bush. But i wanted to do my job well you know i felt like you know if i can be successful and get intelligence from these people then we could end the war quickly and it would be better for iraq better for for us from the people. In recent days is going to focus a few. Betrayed our values on some of the reputation of our country. And when 6 or 7 investigations under way. Of military Justice System that. We know that those. Were they got to justice. I was angry at our leadership because i i knew that they were prosecuting interrogators and guards and leadership wasnt being held accountable i. I was disappointed in myself and. A reviewer there was terrible so i was i was right i was very angry when the abu ghraib trial happened. I got a call from the lawyer for chip frederick. And he asked me to act as part of the defense team i said well the person that you should really talk to is this imparato he ran this experiment in the 1970 s. And the situations of abu ghraib as far as i can tell are those conditions that are also reproduced in the. Zimbardo experiments chip frederick hes. The man here he was the one who had the idea of putting electrodes on in the hood. His lawyer said the problem now is the military want to use him in a show trial in baghdad. In abu ghraib not only not a single scene office that went to trial not a single scene officer got a call letter of reprimand in fact in some cases they even got promoted the offices so its its the people at the top always take care of the people at the time. When were still evaluating how we are going to approach the whole issue of interrogations detentions and so forth and i dont believe that anybody has but belong on the other hand i also have a belief that we need to look forward as lows as opposed to looking looking backwards. Look forward will look backward go forward is going to be like backward if you dont do something about what happened in the past nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past and for this among other people i fault president obama essentially he gave everybody Dick Cheney Donald rumsfeld he gave them all a free pass. To its w. Bush theyre all going to be rehabilitated theyre all going to be treated as great statesmen one day i mean they gave president obama a nobel prize for not being george w. Bush to. The question of course the world that dancing around me you know are avoiding is does it work as torture work doesnt work people that have information that are part of an underground up or run a terrorist organization a revolution urbanisation accomplished organization whatever organized form of collective elements of ip they wont. Know. And the people that you pick up that are innocents yes. To turn them to pieces you store them youll ruin them. I think that a few of the people that passed through my hands and interrogated did have intelligence but the move the vast majority of the people that i dealt with were just being picked up because they were males of military age and they were just get swept up in these raids i dont think torture is always being used as a method to gain information or or confessions its often just being used out of out of anger and fear. Here in the United States we have this picture of torture as something that is done by the lonely person the lonely the man who does it more in sorrow than in anger because he is absolutely forced to because so many lives depend on it is willing to take the moral stain on the moral pain on him and in order to save all these people there was always this anxiety in american politics which is that the bunkers the kinds of makes makes us weaker and less capable of taking the real things that real men should be able to do theres a very gendered masculinist sort of notion behind this real men torture. And democracy makes us sissies. In the middle east we have people shopping their heads off christians we have things that we have never seen before i would bring back waterboarding and i going back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding. One of the things that we need to consider now it has become a quite an issue is how many of these soldiers who used to participate in these kinds of american techniques are now policemen and immigration officers who manage mexicans and hispanics and other sorts of things in integrations today theres already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques including freezing rooms. Sleep deprivation all these things are now being used on on on immigrants and children so this is one of the terrible things about techniques is that they circulate between war and home and whatever you do in war d comes home. d d torture clean d then we can feel that the thing thats being done to protect us isnt really so bad we have become used to the idea that it is a legitimate moral stance that we do anything we need to in order to feel safe to feel secure and in a bizarre way its as if the government is trying to make a deal with us you let us do whatever we want over here on the dark side and in return i promise you will never die its like this fake promise of immortality. But of course we could die d d and history the american empires were. And 50 years from now historians might have to say as french historians have said about france and algeria that that something was lost in the u. S. And brought supporters of moral authority that made america war good or sucker funds for this the shimmer of effective interrogation. Passed to silence in the. Bronx it is threatening frank and languages Family Business like many english sheep farmers in business depends on european explorers without a Free Trade Agreement with the e. U. That could soon be over just like the future of farmers and their sheep only time news town. On euro. 90 minutes on w. Ws crime fighters are back africas most successful radio drama series continues this season the stories focus on hate speech the invention of sustainable charcoal production. All of the sos are Available Online and of course you can share and discuss on africas Facebook Page and other social media platforms. Crime fighters to news now. Get. The funny seconds of the coronavirus pandemic. Where does science stand. What the new findings have researchers me. Information and background into. The corona up to. 19 special. Monday to friday on. The. Plane. This is d. W. News live from Berlin Germany races to keep corona virus infections under control as caseload searched daily infections have jumped to more than 11000 and German Health minister young says hes tested positive for the virus also coming out u. S. Intelligence officials accuse iran and russia of trying to meddle in the Upcoming Elections saying tehran and moscow access Voter Registration day tiles and they say iran is behind threatening to send to inner