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You take an ordinary individual like a drafted or recruit and make a person become an affective interrogator. And it seems that milgram experiment was like an art of responding. But i learned of incidents such as the destruction of millions of men and women and children for betrayed by the nazis in world war 2 i was a possible ask myself that ordinary people will courteous and decent in everyday life can act callously in you mainly without any limitations of conscience. Under what conditions would a person Obey Authority who commanded actions that went against conscience these are exactly the questions that i want to investigate yeah university. At the moment sperma very simply was similar to torture this was one not all the research weve been describing as the impact of interrogation upon the subject. Had another agenda the impact of interrogation upon the interrogator if he were going to get the right answer he would say prof then tell him the number of balls youre going to get and. Then give him the punishment. And read the correct word pair once he got an ordinary people who fit by all the regular scales very normal americans and then he subjected them under false color to just doing what he called an educational experiment in try to encourage people to apply ever higher voltages as a false patient kept on getting making mistakes. But he. Did fact that milgram was able to encourage at least in his 1st experiments i think close to 70 percent to go on to apply highly dangerous and sometimes fatal shocks im not going to get that man sick of that. I need to know that. You know what i mean i mean time did i learn it likes it or not we must go on until i dont know all the way ive used to take the responsibility and get iron that. We need under our. International essential if you continue teaching theres still money left here and i mean do you get it wrong you just to let them watch. You know whos going to take responsibility for and they have is that i dont know im responsible for anything that happens you continue. Next with a smile well dance trap music and some plays. On a 95 mile. Dance. He did this simply with a very simple thing putting the person behind a wall and having a person with a White Lab Coat telling them that they needed to continue very ordinary people can be influenced by situations and its one of the implications of both the milgram experiment the zimbardo experiment. The Stanford Prison Experiment was i think a unique attempt to answer that question of what makes some people behave in a good way what makes some people behave in a bad way and so the idea was to lets lets find an evil place and present everywhere in the world the evil places and lets feel this evil place was only good people. To get the students and volved i had convinced the Palo Alto Police department to make mock a rash of all the students who were going to be president. And then they came down to the basement of sanford Psychology Department the place where the prison study was done. The idea is prison is made to feel inferior in significant worthless the most important thing is you take away their name they become a number and of course given they have smocks it with no underpants theyre behind is showing. Like 1st hour in there it was humiliating was also abrupt was quick it was just you know take them off put this on and then i got dusted with baking soda which was supposed to be easy to delouse or and i was letting the cell. What the bardo did was a very cheap doc off of. The kind of thing that milgram was doing nunnally zimbardo. I think you know the guard called john wayne believed that ethics dont matter is the environment as are the sissel and thats not true all life is real life. We needed to get tougher with the prisoners. And it could well be that we were instructed by the experimenters to get tougher in fact i dont think we considered ourselves to be as subject of the experiment we were merely a tool of the researchers to get the results they wanted from the real subjects which we thought were the prisoners and i decided to become the nastiest prison guard that i could make myself where i am what i am now got to get it isnt running or you want to leave and i. Will yeah off get off on them. And the 2 of you know my magic with. You 345. I was responsible for coming up with all these routines that i would put the prisoners through where id have them stand in a line recites their numbers do pushups do jumping jacks. And i had never once stopped to think that these prisoners were suffering any harm or any damage were not are not beating anybody were just sort of applying psychological pressure on them come on yeah. Theyre all there in harmony. How did that. How does it hard just to tell you that the moment people can be right and yet and let me in on some knowledge that ive never experienced 1st hand. Ive read about it ive read a lot about it but ive never experienced it firsthand ive never seen someone turn that way and i know youre a nice guy you know. Just what would you have. I dont know it might play out spectacularly in the military so the connections would be much further down the road it would be particularly. In the iraq war and in the setting up of get moer and all of that. And by the time you get to 2001 its already this cultural artifact and so it is going to be picked up by. By anyone for any permanent. Kind of people held accountable are not there because they stole that. They are not common criminals. Their enemy combatants and terrorists who are being detained for acts of war against our country and that is why different rules faffed plot. And. The continuity of this extraordinary. If you look at a sketch of the cubicle and of the student volunteer at Mcgill University and then if you look forward to 2002 when the 1st alqaeda suspects are being confined at camp x. Ray a month on im over there in goggles gloves and innermost that look like god trust like that 1957 sketch. After 911. 00 all of us working at ph our realized that there would very likely be a huge problem of interrogation gone wild meaning torture cruel inhuman and degrading to treatment. The use of extreme isolation was one other remains of techniques that were employed by a fish oils interrogators and so forth literally starting all the way back in 2002 for many many days and that is just unbelievably destructive. And they began confining people on and on they moved to. Having psychologists do interviews with patients as cover in addition flaws individual sources of trauma and security and then they they also discovered because they were done and with muslims. Muslim males are. Upset by midday and also by female physical contact and then dont. Raise it has always played a role in american torture its the american torture techniques are part of old military punishments punishments that were used on slaves. And. And you might find that strange but there was one area where slaves were never whipped but you use clean techniques on them they didnt leave marks and that was if youre going to sell a slave because a slave that had wit marks means that they were not going to obey and so a clean slave was so got a higher price. The cotton industry in the southern delta states of the United States depended completely on torture. Over the course of 4 decades human beings by using their bodies as a technological form as a technological machine were able to multiply by 8 times the amount of cotton an individual person could pick in a single day so the use of torture is absolutely tied at the moment from the very canny. To these kinds of cases. Many people in the system. And the people who are imposing these conditions. Believe that ordinary punishment is too good for these people and a lot of it is about the other disadvantage religiously ethnically. Nationally culturally its easier than it would be to someone from your own community to do that. So. In guantanamo. Secretary defense rumsfeld appointed a commander Jeffrey Miller whose job it was to extract information and Geoffrey Miller made up a cd or staffed it. And in flew to iraq and under the. With the permission of the commander there general sanchez the then camp and training sessions for the interrogators and the stuff at abu ghraib prison where he transmitted the guantanamo and techniques to the abu ghraib stuff basically the restraints were removed and they were told to get results the thing that became so clear is that what the United States was doing was not a secret it was hidden in plain sight it wasnt really until the photographs from abu ghraib were released which were just you know the tip of the iceberg of what was actually happening that people in this country began actually talking about it. But we didnt know what it was exactly the right to do if i had to recommend all over again and i think he said to them i see course of action. That we did exactly what. They were seeing the most not all of them i can get them to where there was one theres 1600 of them weve only seen off in about 20. Maybe 30 theres 1600 and they say the worst ones are are the ones we havent seen. So and yes they were violating. Military regulations in what theyre doing but. They were operating within a system in which they were conditioned or structured in order to violate those laws when you arrived at the grave where you where what had happened there. Almost immediately after we arrived i would arrive we were briefed that there was misconduct but we werent given details and the interrogators that i knew who had been there during that time didnt they didnt talk about it so we we didnt know if i learned everything through the news. We understood the geneva conventions to mean that absolutely you know you knew you couldnt you couldnt harm anybody in your care that your primary responsibility was their well being. Rather than putting you in distress but then we were confused and then of you know of course we got these memos from the Justice Department and from the pentagon. Authorizing the use of much more harsh techniques. We started docking those techniques when i was stationed in mosul among them were stress positions sleep deprivation. Inducing hypothermia. To stay and in any way we could put them in in distress using dogs this is this is a socalled slippery slope so that they take the gloves off policy allowed american interrogators from going from a certain list of techniques that were lets say allowed and even those were already torture to doing extreme things rape and sodomy and you know the most extreme forms of physical and psychological print tally. You can just torture somebody on a whim without knowing how to do it and the reality of course is that torture like any physical skill right requires training requires practice it requires an institutional setting a built environment really you need to have this institutionalized spates physical space in which you can perform torture we want you know we we want to be successful i was against the war you know what liberal i didnt vote for george bush. But i wanted to do my job well you know i felt like you know if i can be successful and get intelligence from these people then we could end the war quickly and it would be better for iraq better for for osmund people sure. In recent days is going to focus a few. Betrayed our values on some of the reputation. For. 6 or 7 investigations under way. In military Justice System that has values we know other than those. Who are they brought to justice. I was angry at our leadership because i i knew that they were prosecuting interrogators and guards and leadership wasnt being held accountable i. I was disappointed in myself and. A reviewer there was terrible so that i was right i was very angry when the abu ghraib trial happened. I got a call from the lawyer for chip frederick. And he asked me to act as part of the defense team i said well the person that you should really talk to is zimbardo he ran this experiment in the 1970 s. And the situations of abu ghraib as far as i can tell are those conditions that are also reproduced in the. Zimbardo experiments chip frederick hes. The man here he was the one who had the idea of putting electrodes on in the hood his lawyer said the problem now is the military want to use him in a show trial in baghdad. In abu ghraib not only not a single scene office that went to trial not a single scene officer got a call letter of reprimand in fact in some cases they even got promoted in the offices so its its the people at the top always take care of the people at the top. Were still evaluating how we are going to approach the whole issue of interrogations detentions and so forth and i dont believe that anybody has but belong on the other hand i also have a belief that we need to look forward as los as opposed to looking looking backwards. Well look forward will look backward go forward is going to be like backward if you dont do something about what happened in the past nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past and for this among other people i fault president obama essentially he gave everybody Dick Cheney Donald rumsfeld he gave them all a free pass. To a study of bush theyre all going to be rehabilitated theyre all going to be treated as great statesmen one day i mean they gave president obama a nobel prize for not being george w. Bush. The question of course the world that benson around. You know were avoiding is does it work is torture work doesnt work people that have information that are a part of an underground apparatus a terrorist organization a revolution or organization accomplished organization whatever organized form of collective i want to ip they wont. Know. And the people that you pick up that are innocence yes you know. Tear them to pieces you store them youll ruin them. I think that a few of the people that passed through my hands and interrogated did have intelligence but most of the vast majority of the people that i dealt with were just being picked up because they were males of military age and they were just get swept up and in these raids i dont think torture is always being used as a method to gain information or or confessions its often just being used out of out of anger and fear. Here in the United States we have this picture of torture as something that is done by the lonely person the lonely the man who does it more in sorrow than in anger because he is absolutely forced to because so many lives depend on it is willing to take the moral stain and the moral pain on him and in order to save all these people there was always this anxiety in american politics which is that debunkers the kinds of makes makes us weaker and less capable of taking the real things that real men should be able to do theres a very gendered masculinist sort of notion behind this real bad torture and. And democracy makes us sissies. In the middle east we have people shopping their heads off christians we have things that we have never seen before i would bring back waterboarding and that bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding. One of the things that we need to consider now it has become a quite an issue is how many of these soldiers who used to participate in these kinds of american techniques are now policemen and immigration officers who manage mexicans and hispanics and other sorts of things in interrogations today theres already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques including freezing rooms. Sleep deprivation all these things are now being used on on on immigrants and children so this is one of the terrible things about techniques is that they circulate between war and home and whatever you do in war comes home ready ready. If we keep torture clean d then we can feel that the thing thats being done to protect us isnt really so bad we have become used to the idea that it is a legitimate moral stance that we do anything we need to in order to feel safe to feel secure and in a bizarre way its as if the government is trying to make a deal with us you let us do whatever we want over here on the dark side and in return i promise you will never die its like this fake promise of immortality. But of course we could. And history the american empires were. And 50 years from now historians might have to say as french restaurants have said about france and algeria that that something was lost in the u. S. And brought supporters of moral authority that made America World leader sucker fuzzed for this the shimmer of effective interrogation. Is growing in the sea. In the form of. Their super foods that are also good for the cause theyre primordial plants but a futuristic resource and they can do even more. Women from 2 continents present their green vision. Global 3000. And 30 minutes on d w. Eco africa and baby boom for uganda is not in. The primates have taken advantage of the peace and quiet of the current virus lock down to produce a particularly large number of offspring residents in the neighboring villages are thrilled they hope that these were animals will soon attract new tourists again an eco effort the. 90 minutes on d w. It was the 1st International Tribunal in history. The nurnberg trials. 75 years ago a high ranking officers of the nazi regime in the corner judging by the allied forces. They were the 1st criminals to be held accountable for their crimes from. The bad count them on. Garry trudeau pair of years frasier. Our 2 part series the 3rd reich dog starts nov 12th on d w. This is news and these are our top stories. The u. S. Has filed a landmark antitrust lawsuit against google it alleges that the tech giant has been abusing its dominance in Online Search to stifle competition and harm consumers its the u. S. Governments most significant action to protect competent

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