For more. Than. One. Hello and welcome to to the point and here are our guests. Is an expert on Turkish Foreign policy and a fellow at the Robert Bosch Academy and berlin and he says in this conflict greece is using the language of International Law and European Solidarity and turkeys using language of fair sharing of Mediterranean Resources and coercive diplomacy and its also a pleasure to welcome choco this to me i he works for. And he is convinced that unlike turkeys adventurous regional ambitions in recent years its Foreign Policy regarding the Eastern Mediterranean is following its traditional line and were also very glad to have with us yes im an aggie and she is a freelance. Its journalist from hamburg who works mainly with the a r d network she says everyones hardline approach in the Eastern Mediterranean is part of his symbolic politics with which he tries to distract from domestic problems in the current conflict hes taking this strategy too far so let me start out with you char and get your take on how come all stumble this situation really is in mid august greek and turkish warships actually collided in the Eastern Mediterranean were hearing some pretty martial rhetoric and some experts are saying this in fact is the highest level of tension we have seen between these 2 countries since 1974 would you see it that way. The way that you put it as combustible i think is a way a way to use it and turkey in the past when it comes to the. Matters regarding the egypt see on the mediterranean. Never. Had a 2nd thought about engaging with greece if the use of force is necessary so weve seen as you pointed out in cyprus that everybody thought that turkey was bluffing regarding that weve seen that almost 2 countries at the brink of war in 1996 when there was this almost military escalation between the 2 countries over a small landmass a small island on the egypt sea. Right now were seeing. Peterhof that and if we look at the Turkish Foreign policy regarding the maritime matters over the area. Change its stance over that. And since it doesnt recognize the u. N. Called nation on the sea of law which part of it turkey is not and this is escalating the situation because of the maritime borders and territorial waters and where do you draw the lines. You always said its a war if greece goes beyond the blood because basically what greece is claiming by extending its 3rd story waters is to carve a corner to argue over a point and turkey just is not willing to accept the cure is willing to use of force if necessary i dont see a war like about so maybe so yes i mean were hearing this is part of a long standing pattern is what is telling us would you say its more explosive than past incidents in that pattern. In relation to greece it is explosive then his. Policy and his for targets has been and is the more explosive when we look at the Bigger Picture of turkeys Foreign Policy. Its certainly a moment dangerous its unprecedented because hes risking to a nato allies going to watch does he really mean that im not sure i dont think turkey actually once was i think knows very well that International Mediation will step in turkey knows that the e. U. Will make efforts that germany will make of folks that the u. S. Even though they have their own issues at the moment will also not one to scum flicked so i think is using his aggressive rhetorics because it always helps him domestically but that at the same time he is relying on International Diplomacy as we can see in. His using aggressive rhetorics his foreign minister has expressed at the same time that turkey is ready fun to go she ation so. So let me come back. To what you said in your Opening Statement about the language of International Law and fair sharing of Mediterranean Resources as we heard there from charter both sides citing International Maritime law law of the sea and so on turkey says greece is manipulating International Law 10 turkey its right to oil and Gas Resources in the mediterranean to a very small corner of the gulf of antalya but is that even possible isnt International Law clear on this point its not clear like on the one hand yes it is clear but the International Law is also open to will interpretation and different interpretations so in this regard the language that is. Using still its reference from the international but with different reference one friends they can have turkey argues that it is the it is the maidan that not the island that can the territorial waters that have the economy. I mean yes within the international no authorization obvious zone being the area of course where a country could then explore exactly exactly so given the fact that the greece has like a very large number of islands in mediterranean i mean i think its as high as 1000 island so if everyone claims the exclusive economy that effectively means that turkey is very much you know confined to the gulf. And then from the Church Perspective this is a. Maritime blockade you know it sounds like you know that you have like a very limited very limited area so in this regard this poses actually the has much more continued from turkey saudi than many many things lets not forget that both the Turkish Parliament in 1940 that declare that if true greece is going to increase the maritime water from 6 mile to 12 my that will be like a cold war so in this. This poll is it has more continued it on both of them how like Reference Point the different form of legitimacy and here you are right now you see the conflict in you know different claim of legitimacy and different idea of what the shape of the resources should be so charles let me ask you this maritime boundary disputes are hardly a new thing in the Eastern Mediterranean as you pointed out and in fact generally these disputing claims of cyprus greece and turkey were largely viewed as a local affair but now suddenly france getting involved why whats changed. I think it has 2 reasons one. It could be the way i see it way off. Within the European Union i mean. Has been pursing an active Foreign Policy in the middle east recently weve seen what he has been doing in libya and lebanon and so on and so forth so its on the one hand some sort of act of solidarity to support greece and on the other hand i think the 2nd point is that to somehow perhaps. You cannot go far like you are thinking that greece is maybe you know small bite for you but were standing behind greece so you cannot go down for. Just a minute to be honest with oil and gas prices way down at the moment investors backing out of fossil fuel resources it seems like a strange time to make so much of a fuss over these resources yeah it is a strange time its actually one of the pic kuli era teas of this conflict that. No one really talks about that i mean some experts talk about it is that. We are actually at a time in history when fossil when we shouldnt compete over. Resources for. We should compete and discuss how to step out of them and as you say its very expensive and probably not profitable we dont know yet how profitable it will be to actually drill for these gas reserves in the is the mediterranean and of a point is that when we look at the very complicated legal wealth of maritime law. In truth and you just explained that the turkey is point is not so bad here took a situation is not so bad so if. This issue went to for example an independent International Institution or a. They like turkey they have. Managed to pull off they are maximum 3 months because yes like this idea that every small Little Island every small little greek island can declare its own Economic Zone that probably wouldnt yeah i mean international probably wouldnt agree with that and what. Turkeys point so in reality its not so necessary for john to be as aggressive as he is he could also step back and rely on national law which obviously hes not willing to do and hes never really been interested which of course the point you made about symbolic politics well i mean one thing i mean the word. Energy has the most people topic but this issue is not that was the energy its a different form of sovereignty and its about the job that is i mean the fact that you have a country like u. A. E. Which has no border to it to use a mediterranean like you know doing drilling with griese. Does indicate how joe pulled the it is a job pull the competition and this problem of the reason that france is in the game as well too i mean the french and the turkish tension are right now multifold its in libya its in the mediterranean its in north africa its in syria so now you we saw this play out in aleppo. Like in france i mean. In. Iraq so. Again you see you know sounds like an assertion of the sphere of influence pulled by both actors in this regard the french play the e. U. Members they were a major job political player that has its own interests and thats why like you know the french and the germans are not seeing eye to eye quite. Quick question on geopolitics in the past the United States was often seen as a kind of mediator or even guarantor of peace between these 2 nato allies. Is the reason that this is flaring up also because of the vacuum left by the fact that the Trump Administration is no longer willing to act as World Police Im sure that the fact that the there is a veteran that left by the us and has not been field way anyone and anyone else is like and want to reason that you see kind of this job pull the lever is becoming much more in essence dangerous you see this in the middle east you see it is that is the military and you saw this in libya as well to do germany is trying to play the role of the mediation and i think like you know to some extent they did was but in the end i think like you know it will be still the us to the day that will step in that just like in a push or at least you can at this stage a conflict is unlikely but not on think bill let me ask lets say this did come to an outright conflict with greece even stand a chance against turkeys extremely powerful military im not another that military expert and i dont think it will boil down to a total war between the 2 countries where everybody is more belies so it will if even if into some sort of a conflict i think it will be stopped straight away by the International Powers and the sides will be forced to return to the negotiation table as a result of that so i dont imagine like a full scale course of the 2 countries on there and the circumstances the fact is that turkeys army is the 2nd strongest in nato and it has been put to increasing use of late. You know 29000 Turkish Armed forces launched an offensive into neighboring syria but failed to achieve their ultimate objective ousting dictator Bashar Al Assad in favor of a radical muslim government. Turkish soldiers have also been involved in libyas internal fighting on the side of the government. But anticipated deals on natural gas deliveries from president. Bush have yet to materialize. This may have prompted turkish president to want to refocus his Foreign Policy efforts on the Eastern Mediterranean and its potentially fast natural gas reserves. Had once been building up Turkeys Armed forces didnt know who swore ships and jet fighters have been encroaching on the territorial waters of neighboring countries as a recent example the turkish vessel was spotted searching for gas in a disputed area of southwestern cyprus. The other one has also used arms deals with russia to turn up the political pressure on nato and hes threatened to let thousands of Syrian Refugees pass through to europe. What does everyone hope to achieve with his aggressive Foreign Policy. Let me put that question straight away to yes i mean what does the one hope to achieve with the saber rattling not only in the Eastern Mediterranean but elsewhere as well. Elsewhere meaning at home domestically. This saber rattling as we call it has proven to be very. Domestic in this politics aggressive rhetoric this. Demonstration of military power this. Idea we wont back down to anyone we want anyone to tell us what to do. This is. With his fellow as with hats off the takesh population and his past think eds own past experiences have proven that even when casualties are happening as an often syria for example where turkish soldiers are dying regularly then so doesnt. Change the fact that these kinds of yeah these kinds of initiatives are popular in tukey because it taps into nationalist sentiments that taps into this idea of being a victim to International Powers so am i and our john does need and boost of popularity because hes in a very difficult position at home well come back to that in just a moment but let me ask you this chara you say are the ones been following the traditional course in the Eastern Mediterranean but what about in syria and in libya is the expansionism Something Different they are. The main routes for the turkish government and they are doing is using regarding syria and libya is let me focus on syria 1st it was never about an expansionist idea or just reflecting the official discourse of course it was more of a security issue that i could they agree to an extent so in that sons when there is a war happening if your border and if you have like 4000000 refugees in your country that you have to take in the dangerous situation the conflict situation going on over there is naturally affecting turkeys. Regarding syria so that the operation could be seen. Within that perspective when it comes to libya thats a whole another story both. Say that as it was bored to earlier. Metzer all future of political influence in the region turkey has. Been pushing for it slightly in the from the jirga fees. Sometimes getting what they want sometimes its not as successful as the popes lets talk a little bit about the european role in all of this because as all of you have mentioned europe has tried to mediate to some degree particularly angle americal because germany does now have the European Unions rotating presidency how effective has that been and does europe face in some ways conflicting loyalties by virtue of the fact that greece is not only a nato ally but also a member of the e. U. Whereas turkey of course is only a nato ally well. I mean germany try to do like a service in libya and also in Eastern Mediterranean as well so im in germany was a country that International Conference on the be as well true and unfortunately it hasnt produced much one of the major reason for this that it hasnt produced more because you have european proxy war taking place in libya as well too between france and italy so in a sense that you know we used to think was a proxy war in the form of the middle east some powers but the in libya you have like basically france and italy supporting different signs of the telling position is much closer to the turkish positioned the french position was that going to basic the only in line with egypt and the United Arab Emirates unlikeness in support of the war lost that in the military and i think the prospect is prospect for some form of success is higher for a very simple reason were not talking about the european neighborhood were talking about europe so a conflict not in europe in neighborhood a conflict within the euro because right now once again you have like you know treat European Countries that has been deeply involved france cyprus and agrees but also like turkey which is like a nature member but at same time i mean still officially an e. U. Candid even though its going nowhere so if the trouble is if germany plays the role of the e. U. Member rather than and mediator then you know it will have less influence to bring the sides to table because it will be part of the. Trouble so i think in these got a fair im a data role is a Great Service that germany can do party given the fact right now theres a void left by the u. S. And no one is going to step in so very briefly if you would sanctions lot of talk right now about possibly imposing sanctions on turkey or would that work with they be effective and do you think itll happen briefly while i think it its on like the to have happen but even if it happens it will not change the behavior of draghi if any. If you will just like you know. Basically you know. Its. Only as good instructors you yes me let me ask you this. We just heard from once more about the enormous long running ambivalence that the European Union has had about moving forward on any form of accession membership for turkey how does that pushed turkey into this confrontational stance essentially pushed turkey out of the western orbit and i mean the very shot and yes it has done so for a very long time because i dont know if a past decade probably even longer no one in turkey believes that the European Union has any interest and accepting them so they lost interest and that a long time ago i would say politically but also in the minds of people let us take a very quick look at the domestic situation in turkey after one and his cape a party have engaged in severe repression at home particularly when confronted with perceived threats. After the failed coup attempt against him in july 26th Team President to one had tens of thousands of dissidents arrested and declared terrorists. Also detained 170 domestic and foreign journalists like denise. A german citizen who was imprisoned without charges for an entire year. Better one almost seems to antagonize europe and the west deliberately his a. K. P. Is considering leaving an International Convention for combating violence against women as well as lifting penalties on sexual abuse of underage girls if a marriage results in july he had the how he is sophia in istanbul converted back to a functioning mosque at one time it was christendoms Largest Church and for decades the museum. Step by step hes been moving away from the secular ideals of modern turkeys founder come out a turk is pushing turkey towards an islamic dictatorship. So yes i mean you told us that these symbolic gestures things like converting the haag sophia mosque are in fact a sign to distract from domestic problems whats the biggest domestic challenge that one currently faces with the financial crisis obviously that the country has been suffering from for many years its getting less. At a historic low unemployment is rising food prices are going up and cause as everyone else corona the koran the crisis has made things wow us you say saber rattling is sometimes quite effective at home and generating support what about curtailing womens rights. Are you asking about its effective and. Depends on who you ask. The cons of a tive parts of the population. Convention is seen as something that diminishes family and conservative ideas about how women should live so. Yeah. So its a president there once playing to his base. Hows domestic repression worked to silence the political opposition and what if anything could actually topple anyone from power. I think in turkey the main problem is not with the economy although it could i mean is one of the biggest problems i think the governments biggest problem is to actually remain in power. All the developments that weve seen in the past 4 years are actually a reflection off the government facing the consequences of wrong policy moves and trying to recover it with taking some steps further in order to be able to remain in power weve seen that with. And now were seeing that with greece so nationalism is always an easy card to play and. So let me come back to. Ask you how far you think are the one will go and who will be the loser in turkey or europe. Well i mean if they will face each other the countries will be to lose or because in that on the cherokee major part. Of it to all migration like in a major economy unlike you know also the major and the same for europe as well. As biggest Economy Investment i mean the largest market for turkey i mean theres like around 6000000 troops living you have people of turkey. If youre. Going to look at the you know once the winner thank you very much to all of you and thanks to you out there see you soon. For. Org. Board. Fake hair and real story. Where i come from a lot of women like me have fake hair sometimes a hairstyle takes up to 200 thats a lot of time that needs to be filled so people at the salon talk about whats happening in their lives and i became a journalist to be a storyteller and i always want to find those real authentic stories from everyday people who have something to share. With all the time i spend at the salon i know a good quality hair when i see ads and a good story when i hear it. My name is Elizabeth Schall and i work at c w. How does a virus spread. Why do we panic and when will all this. Just through the tax and comer. And i weekly radio show is called spectrum if you would like in the information on the crown of virus or any other science topic you should really check out our podcast you can get it wherever you get your podcast you can also find us at. Slash science. Ive. Ive. Ive. Ive. I. Am i was i. All we can be the generation that ends it good malaria must die so millions can live. This is the w. s wife of from berlin tonight russia pushing back denying any involvement in the poisoning of Opposition Leader alexey. Germany says it has proof that nepal he was poisoned with a toxic nerve agent and of all the supporters saying this goes right to the top. And no one else could have done if there is 0 possibility that social gratian should have been carried out we both personal permissions also coming up tonight in the u. S. 2 days after President Trump a job by these visiting to better