Thanks very much indeed for joining us here in the studio today my 3 guests include yulia fish a former doctor and now journalist and author she says we must make no compromises in implementing the Lessons Learned so far if not the 2nd wave will be very very painful she said hes also with this is a recount business and finance journalist with the globe and based daily the target sites of all the tuts and orica believes that by the full the late the latest corona will be back and she warns the economy will be hard hit and a very warm welcome to sister because koch professor of Public Health and deputy all of jihad bill and Charity Hospital he says. We must do everything in our power to keep infection rates low and protect the public sector. Thank you all for being here once again id like to begin with utopias coats and until very recently there was a sense here in germany that we had the situation with the coronavirus pretty much under control its fair to say so is it fair to ask what has gone wrong im not sure something went wrong thing. That were seeing right now was expected because we open the borders we allow people to travel abroad so people maybe behave something somewhat different than they would do at home they come back some of them are infected the schools opening public life is opening which is a good thing i think the issue that we see over the last days is the sudden rise in the numbers about. The numbers up yes. On the very low levels still so theres an increase and if this is a really big wave that we that we seeing right now we have to wait and we have to everyone really take control on that infection rate Wearing Masks keeping their distance so we can keep the public life open thats really important you do you not think yeah im totally agree because i also think that its not surprising that the numbers are coming up. Says parts of it is due to the. Parties that are happening in private places with family its an answer strange isnt it for viewers that are outside germany or outside berlin specifically it will seem strange that we talk about corona parties here in yeah yeah the ones i was talking about right now are not corona parties i would say but its people getting together and having gatherings or bigger gatherings than were allowed a few weeks ago and i mean i think its normal that the numbers are going to rise after having more parties or get togethers more gatherings like that but that we can. React that we still have it under control were. Not being hit by a way if you might develop to a wave but were not there yet im going to be against the do she uses the german word of course she uses the word like it which means sort of complacency it appears to be in so many other observers to be dreadful to complacency your your you your response the notion that its sort of all part of human nature it is part of human nature weve been in a time that was hard on us its a burden for everybody having to live in in this situation not knowing when its going to end living a life thats not like the way we used to and that causes stress and that makes it hard for us to keep to the rules but still of course we have to stick to the rules and we have to keep going but it is part of human nature that we have what we want and as we get especially if we dont see the numbers rising and in summer we had a really calm time and thats what we the prevention paradox. If you dont see the numbers rising in the virus being really really dangerous you might believe its already over and of course thats not the case its natural to think this but we have of course to tell the people its not over yet we really have to keep taking the measures ok. Germany have been broadly praised for the response to the crisis so far do you share in that proces well i think that. German authorities reacted in the right way but its not true and thats something that the germans tend to think that it was only german germany that was successful in fighting the pend that make for example a country that is always overlooked and that was even more successful than germany is green because greece stopped carnival for example very beginning various and germany had big parties and can. So the greeks didnt have stopped. They stopped. Trying to act as. Well yes the germans. Up. Clearly worried from the statements of the top of the show that the Health Services in germany in the foreseeable future be overstretched despite everything that weve just been hearing talking only about the Health Services but about public life as a whole so. Concert hall that we can keep this open so we just minutes to open them up again and the numbers were low and so we really have to make efforts to keep them open and we all can change the numbers by Wearing Masks but keeping to the distance and eventually hopefully we have medication or vaccination available to make a big difference but until we have to Work Together to prevent further lockdown ok despite all that weve heard so far some observers are talking about. Many. Of the divide is the growing number of people joining protests against regulations and claiming that fundamental freedoms are at stake. The estimated crowd of 20000 people who demonstrated against compulsory masks and other coronavirus restrictions last weekend. Among them were coronavirus deniers and right wing extremists and conspiracy theorists all united in their anger against the federal government their motto of the pandemic i date of freedom. Now theyre just plain scare tactics i dont see any danger i dont know any sick people. Demand is basically going to. To democracy a way with these laws that have been imposed on us we have the masks that make us. Through. People who dont do research the way we do it they are kept stupid and believe what the government tells us and they buy into the fear that the government peddles to us and fear attacks the immune system. Or safety is this the choice that defines the pandemic. Thats the big question isnt it i mean weve all been following the debate here in berlin here in germany that was triggered by the demonstrations last weekend is it Public Health against freedom of the debate i dont think so or its difficult to say i mean. I think great parts of germany and the people in germany understand that these measures are needed and that its ok and that its not really our freedom being taken away from us its just a piece of cloth that we have to wear on the face but then theres also other people who. Can take this situation who are being more stressed by it maybe and who are trying to find an answer to why this situation is so difficult to stand and thats why theyre making up. Other explanations because. People who clearly do believe that democracy is in danger. As youve been explaining who do you know see the other side of the argument. Here in germany talk to the people in these protests cote vidiot corona idiots it was pretty extreme stuff it surely would be to have more sympathy or more understanding for people who. I think its you have to differentiate between the people here have to see the ones that are claiming difficulties with a situation that are perfectly. Righteous. People want to see their friends meet friends people want to work people. Not having. They dont want to be destroyed financially and. All of these things are problems that we need to hear and we need to talk to the people and explain to them what is important but then of course theres the that its difficult to talk to because they have complaints that are just not right. Corona is a false alarm. Its not a false alarm corona is real is dangerous and you can measure corona clearly and if you say corona doesnt exist in a very dangerous situation the the protests the mix of different groups are very to difficult to to understand and actually theres a danger in that when you have Rights Groups that have a certain agenda and trying to use this momentum and their people and if you should just who have real concerns about the situation who see that really we have low numbers so obviously not much is going on as some was beautiful outside and not much is happening so why cant i so thats a normal reaction and in a democracy we should we should be able to discuss this and we should allow this voices to speak up and we should openly discuss their concerns to understand their concerns and jointly really target their pandemic because we can only do it jointly if one group things that way works and the other just idiots that is really dividing the population and we should not do that but it was interesting to know that there were practically no masks inside the bourbon demonstration. Feels like a form of sort of russian roulette. I wouldnt be deadly extreme you certainly risk getting infected whether then youre actually getting sick is not a question and obviously youre risking that you infect other people and then they infect other people and so on so. I think it was not a smart move to not wear a mask during a demonstration where you were really close together but obviously that was one of the reasoning too to not wear a mask i think we all have to understand that each of us can make a difference and if we wear this piece of cloth for a couple more months and maybe select it so in airplanes for example or Public Transportation. Has distance many many years that people will mask in Public Transportation its a normal situation there maybe thats a new normal for us and if you where it is for a couple minutes a couple of hours i dont think that your freedom is in danger. Do you do with people who do refuse to work to wear masks maybe men. The case i mean thats something that we also know in our newspaper that we get letters by men who always. Complain that they have to wear masks that they are not allowed to celebrate than 17th. So yes i think that you should just find them i think that it is important to talk to people but i think its also important to show that the state has authority because those who always complain about their freedom if you look at their personality usually its people who somehow crave authority and they every react positively to authority they just want to see where the line is i mean its exactly those people not all of them but many who are writing parties so they want to have as we say in german. Sorry terry in person so i think in a way its good of the state on the government shows. How the rules all your official what would your response be to people who simply refuse to wear masks i mean i came in to do the show today and i was sitting opposite our guy who was wearing a mask its all or it was down his chest well you know what do you do do you address people to pull people up. Thats difficult i would. I think i would decide in the moment if if i think the is open for debating and talking or like in the subway for example maybe i would just let it pass but i would always try as a science journalist to address the people and to really explain why masks are important that there are one important measure that we have you think its ok to find them they have to pay 150 euros i think thats fair i think its i think its fair in the subway and in supermarkets when you know you cant keep the distance i think its ok to do so in order to make the people who have the people know that. Their actions have effect its interesting i was talking to a friend of mine from from thailand who was say that in large parts of asia were just starting to. Its a real affront to other peoples well being is actually used to be said its like youre advancing in the corner its that extreme but we sort of for some reason more or less accept difference of mentality somehow and difference of being used to things that are polite and that are normal to do in a society and its its polite and its normal and we still need to get used to it i think we can but sometimes just about these protests before we move on to a different how typical is that something specifically german about the protests. I wouldnt think so. The last pandemics we had over the last century you always have to and you always have a smaller less obvious and you always have people who have to if you use about a virus about a pandemic and the reaction how do governments react and so on so in germany were used to go out and state oh opinion and thats a good thing and so to having this particular demonstration is also i would say a normal bug was expected and im sure it will happen again and so i think its important to to keep up the discussion while obviously we also need to make sure that the minimal measures that we have to take wearing mask i dont think is about mask i think is about a system trying to tell you what you have to do and the behringer mask is more or less easy sometimes getting uncomfortable after hours if you want glasses little bit difficult but i dont think its about a mask. Was just 20000 people and we have 4000000 inhabitants so innovative as a very small minority and they came from all parts of germany. People. But they are gathered ok we will continue to monitor the situation now around the world lockdowns have certainly had a devastating economic embargo many countries are still struggling to recover including in Southern Europe particularly spain. It is a Clearance Sale and although illegal chris bowen has already drastically reduced his prices few customers come to buy anything or even able to buy anything you know just yesterday i made 102. 00 euros at most honestly i dont know how long we can survive with these prices. Crespo has already had to close one of his 3 stores the spanish economy suffered an 18. 5 percent slump in the 2nd quarter while the average across europe was a solid 12 percent. Drop. Now shopkeepers like you need a crisp 0 fear a renewed increase in the number of infections because another lockdown would be his ruling. Came here its economy survived a 2nd coronavirus wave. Its a big question were asking. The question. Explain survive. Spain can only survive if its being helped by the other European Countries because you know unfortunately in europe we have this divide between countries like lets say spain or portugal or greece and rich countries like germany for example germany has no problem to survive so far because what the government did was just to print new money by taking out loans and theres no limit for the German Government when it comes to. Taking out loans but for those poor countries its really difficult to get finance so what we need is that all of europe agrees on a package that has already been proposed. Around 750000000000 euros thats supposed to be voted for one poem and then to go to the poor countries and thats really very important this package of 750000000000 euros is. Decided on and perhaps the situation in spain can be alleviated what about the role of people like. Germany and in the rest of europe what should we be doing i mean. You should go out and buy as much as you can i mean its you know from a. From a Vantage Point of environment of course horrible. Let me have to go in order to save the economy thats the best thing to do people need to go out and shop and. Not stand at home and worry you know. Thats basically it Big Questions about the future of our economy because people are you know the the economy is slowing down thats the essential message here yes of course and it will take a long time for the economy to recover. While germany for example just at the decline of 10 percent in the 2nd quarter it was not as bad as spain that had 18 percent but nonetheless 10 percent is a lot and it will take a whole of 2021 in order to somehow get back on track what about the Global Economy meanwhile i mean thats sort of sort of what its all interconnected its all. Going down and especially you know its hardly possible to somehow see what will be happening in the United States because they do not get the pandemic under control so probably they will have a 2nd lap down and that of course is very bad news for the whole of the world because the United States is one of the most important customers for example for the German Economy its very very difficult to see what will happen to be a. Little list of the countries that are struggling the most to present and so many countries are struggling u. S. Japan morocco hong kong australia i could go on obviously you know what Public Health measures to the dude does the Global Community have moving into the future now what new measures what new proposals its very difficult to answer is on the global scale so each region has just disappeared settings a specific Health Care System specific economy specific social psychological systems so its its really difficult to say what we all can do certainly what we have to try to do is get the numbers under control and so important also for germany to to keep. Going to. Not advice but really tell other countries how it may work and w. H. O. Obviously has has experts who can assist but often people dont listen and the initially a pandemic was not taken seriously so say the mars just a little flu virus and so let him come and obviously now to suffer the most is these countries other countries they have a different set up in terms of having no resources to actually do something so its very difficult for them to actually react and do they simply not afford it they cannot afford it and People Living conditions their working conditions. Living condition and at home are very difficult and challenging and increase the likelihood of getting infected. To search a certain social gradient where you have stood so those on the low and the more likely to getting infected and those countries who have less resources are more likely to having a big issues and then you have countries like the United States and others who have enormous resources but they just didnt want to react so its a mix of both and we have to understand that. The globe is important also for the economy like even germany always well we export a lot if the others dont buy them we also have a problem so we need to help other countries in europe and elsewhere to really get the numbers of infection under control just one quick word from you in the last couple of days theres been a new tool that has been talks about contacts diary for possibly moving forward into the winter months. Just give us an idea of what thats all about that sounds quite interesting pretty much right down with qantas pretty much the idea of of an app im not so convinced is a great idea but it only works with a smartphone and it only works on the smartphones of the news generation so those who are tyrus of getting infected those who cannot afford it cannot use it so we have to. Find ways and maybe the diary works but. You see how it really helps to control the situation it will help specifically if you say do do you did you were done with whom you had a contact so you hope the Public Health officials who each raise other people its difficult. How do we learn to live with the crisis but hes on going to be with us for 6 months now as you mentioned earlier but its not its not going away how do we learn to live with it. We have to learn to live with with it we have to get used to it we have to accept that its a stressful situation and that its going to be hard for everyone but that if we all Work Together we can keep the injuries small we can try. To identify the clusters and to isolate custers so that we meaning groups of people that get infected and the risk of 1st reading that is these so we have to really go to those clusters and isolate those. That way we could keep the measures low for the rest of the public and that is and aim i think that we should all work for looking forward to using what weve learned to make a life thats ahead. More normal the more normal we can there is something out there however called response from. That is worrying i mean its part of human nature. Because were stressed we cant take that for a long time it is difficult but all we can do is keep telling the people that we have to Work Together and that we have to watch out for one another that its not only you its not myself that i have to be worried about but all the other people i think we can only keep talking keep explaining also not just. Being on the few fault but talking to them and explaining our forum one final word from you give me a very quick take on what you expect going to 2nd way yes im showing getting a 2nd wave in the autumn but perhaps it will be possible to just control it by intensifying and apart from it just have to wait for a vaccination thats the big point isnt it thanks very much for joining us here on to the point today that i hope we given you plenty of food for thought of warehouse. Trips. Up. A. Staying up to date dont miss our highlights. Program on line d. W. Dot com highlights. A duel with words from. Where i come from you dont want a way from a confrontation. When i was 5 years old my father took me to his friends and i was hooked on the spot. A sport that you learned so much early twentys he was so. Fencing as a language and a good sword fighting is a conversation. Must complete your opponent understand the thinking knew of the man to get close otherwise you can score a. Its not unlike a tough interview really when interviewing politicians or corporate c. E. O. s you have to wait for the right moment jeff to get around that defensiveness then make your adult fit. Enough to take risks to get results. Ive got alphas and i work at the deli. All we can be the generation that ends it. Malaria must on millions. This is. After the massive blast that killed nearly a 150 people and left 300000 homeless. Today pledged to lead a global donors conference to rebuild but he says there must be reform in levanon from within also coming up taking on the u. S. New york prosecutors are suing the National Rifle association for financial wrongdoing saying they want to break up the