Rebound thats our title. And theres certainly. Nothing going on. And its a pleasure to welcome our guests eric is an american journalist who has written for the los angeles time amongst other Media Outlets and he says the summit exposed once again how much disunity there is in the European Union. And were very glad to have with us public talk of tovar ski he took us to excuse me he is a polish economist and senior associate at the German Institute for international and Security Affairs he says we must reform the Member States now or will face the same problems again with less time and fewer instruments. And great to have with us once again that. Think emily and she is Deputy Editor in chief of the Parliamentary Bureau of the german newspaper sayto and she says the deal is far from perfect but it is a signal that multilateralism is still alive. And let me start with you cast him and ask for your take on the big picture there are a lot of supra lives being thrown around here a historic a breakthrough chancellor merkel saying its a huge step for the e. U. Would you agree with all that i would say yes its a huge step forward for drug money and also for do you because germany basically changed my mind and giving out. And said offer loans but i would not miss all these people that are saying its now a historic moment because i think history is right. On the path to form the form the future the historians have to jack shriver that was historic for for the moment now it is a big problem how would you see it as an economist see it as the most significant moment to you print a comic integration since the creation of the euro because so far we. Fell actual systems which consisted of loans no were here for grants those gone so quite some substantial do something grown to 750 b. N. A few rules however from the comic respect for mo i think that the most important things will be doing long be able to starve loves the bull market. Thank you very much and well come back to that point a little bit later on eric how would you come down on this historic or less so what we just heard from pavel indicates it is indeed a very very big step how do you see all the mutualization of debt for the 1st time is a big big step its something that was long overdue the e. U. Could have done this a decade ago the eurozone crisis might not have been is heres a was but on the other hand 5 days and 5 nights of negotiations for this deal that could have been done in a day is a bit of a farce and it just showed the e. U. The e. U. Is far from you know united in with the problems facing the e. U. And facing the world its not really. Making a very fit for the future when they take 5 days to get a decision like this done if i may say that i mean do you its united otherwise you would not have a deal i mean i agree with you it was really very difficult 5 days and 4 nights to negotiate small signs and but im sorry by the end as it did. Kind of out of congress and abroad they never managed to make a deal and he has the you made by 27 national Member States one last big picture question to you pavel before we take a look at some of the details of this deal it was a compromise as both essentially have have conceded with significant tradeoffs made by pretty much all interested parties the question is whether the result justifies those concessions of course just as far as theyre called concessions on the we have to bear in mind that to be fair if in the in the u. Turn to serve a different members through its with different size different the columbia systems and for some of these Member States is really a huge step forward like from the netherlands before sweden there actually to go on to the common debt to come in come on the government come on move transfers which would go to the south so this is huge step forward which nobody in those concerts expected and the police just most of this comes with of before use criticism at home so that has in fact now take a closer look at the corona recovery package and those north south divisions that it provoked. It was clear theyd be a fight over the 750000000000 Euro Recovery Fund and it exposed deep roots within the e. U. Countries like italy and spain have been especially hard hit by the corona pandemic were timed to counter resistance from countries like the netherlands and austria that would prefer to save money to marathon negotiations they reduce the amount of direct aid to 390000000000. 00 for the 1st time the e. U. Will issue common debt despite all the haggling the current president of the council was placed. Just i think this is a clear signal that goes beyond europe that this very special structure this very special entity a European Union consists of 27. 00 Member States that can act together despite their very different backgrounds and have proven they have the capacity to act that is a good sign. Not. Just. What is the deal actually worth. You talked in your Opening Statement about the disunity exposed by the deal in fact there were moments where it looked as you said of course the 5 days as if there might not be a deal would you say those north south divisions will leave lasting scars absolutely its not just north south now its east west we saw small groups of Eastern European countries able to blackmail their interests we saw the small frugal zabel to force their interests through the e used to be led by france and germany kind of leading the way and people are getting away with in the wake of britain leaving the e. U. Smaller countries are coming up with their special interests and its a scary moment if you think the world where the worlds going with china the United States these big power blocs in the e. U. Here in the middle with 27 countries haggling over small Little Details is the e. U. Going to be able to compete with these big countries in the world of the future. Yeah i went i was sorry but i its totally different actually what i see does is bruv that liberalism is still alive i mean 27 Member States make a deal and its sure it took a very long time and we still have to division between its ours and north and east and restaurant but i mean to special situation here was did normally until the march through many of us in the one line with the matter land australia and these little countries that say day on froogle so actually germany was the leader in saying austerity and after crisis im leah there was a change in german politics and a big change so drummond you stepped away from a story. And went to the 2 for 2 fronts again and then they had 2 strong french drum and motorola that basically came out with this proposal to deliver 500000000000 in grants and just was a big change i mean we were in fact told by the german press at least that the chancellor seemed to be favoring the colors of the tricorder treacle or the french red white and blue yet would you say that there is a lasting change here to the balance of power in europe in part due to chancellor merkels decision to go to the other side i mean you see clearly a dad wanted me instead. To miss not here anymore but because quite button was also balancing as a big power the european decisions and i would not be sure that as a permanent shift from germany. To do it to decide off disallows and countries of the south and become trees but on. The other side i would say this no i turn it to really watch a drum and you do i mean dollar for big. Economies now are left over in the rippin union and they have to Stay Together otherwise do you appeal into the market which is by the way the biggest in the in the road to break away. Probably limited lets talk a bit about some of the economic details of the situation in which europe finds itself before the countries went into the summit the leaders went into the summit there was a lot of talk about the eurozone survival being at stake largely because of the divergence between northern and southern economies if we look at the current numbers germany the netherlands it looks like theyre going to see an Economic Contraction this year of around 6. 5 percent spain and italy or more are almost double that so will this deal now close that gap the head of the European Central bank has said that gap is putting the very survival of the euro in danger do you think the deal will get money to those southern countries in such a way and quickly enough that it can close that divergence. I fully agree that the diversion david with not only the euro area but respectfully of the Single Markets is a very. Very bad thing and whats changed the minds of the leader of the summit i think its was the throats above the. Woods of the Single Market but some comes from a softer core in a crisis actually developing. And the populists in those come through scum actually change the Political Alliance of those countries so the economy divergence can cause social lot of divergence and social theyve theres a version can have a vote in the go to impact on the political unity of the you know and i think thats all to do is on those 2 did very well and thats why we have decision of the summit so let me ask you this eric. The dire economic prospects that are facing those southern European Countries are not only of course due to corona there were macroeconomic weaknesses in spain and italy and elsewhere that preceded the crisis the crew. For were determined to make sure that this recovery package essentially helps to remedy those macroeconomic weaknesses by imposing whats called conditionality do you think that we will see true reform on the basis of this deal i think they have to and i think the reason germany switch sides and was suddenly in favor of collectivizing debt is because merkel realized the corona is a one time thing its an exceptional circumstance the problems with coronas not only because of the economic problems theyre having before and you also realize piling more debt on these other states was going to drive them into into really dire straits so this is a one off perhaps well see but i think miracle also realized it was the right thing to do and there will be controls now the netherlands push this through that they will control with the conditionality make sure the money is being spent on things to help mitigate the impact of coronas so if youre a frugal person you have to say well ok well see how this works not a bad deal could have been better but at least this will go for corona related issues next year america will be gone its unlikely another conservative chancellor would do this again so i do think this is a one off this will be limited to the Current Crisis and hopefully the money will go to the right places in these countries to help them overcome the quota crisis test and one of the points of criticism for some observers its what is what theyre calling the governance architecture of this meeting those conditions that i mentioned that are supposed to ensure reform in the southern european economies that theyre going to be essentially overseen by other e. U. Leaders not by the institutions in brussels but by the European Council itself isnt that a recipe for ongoing divisions and delays. I must say because it is actually possible to define Member States. Different country what kind of shit they have to do or involved kind of films to have to do i mean the European Union all Member States us of oil and National States and its actually on possible that another state can tell you what to do on the other hand and i think that that was the reason why they had to find a compromise i mean taxpayers from all of them on National States got on teaching these grants and that there is a common depth in a way and that means also a german taxpayer us. Taxpayers from the netherlands want to make sure that im on it at this now on the table that would be spent on the life of a and i think it is also a common understanding that there has to be a kind of control your Opening Statement referred to the need for reform in Member States do you think this conditionality is going to do the job. I dont know is difficult to say because we will have the next extreme time pressure the Member States will have to put programs to give the money in a very short time and those programs will be also is by the group in commission by the Member States so its. Difficult to say what kind of quality of just the project will be and where the money will be spun the moment the institutional deficiences moves sold in europe in comes through thats going to be a challenge let me come to a different point all of you have mentioned the provisions for common debt basically the idea is that much of this recovery package will be financed by borrowing on the Financial Markets by the European Union commission now when that proposal was 1st made to eric. The german finance minister referred to we had heard essentially made the analogy to the socalled hamiltonian moment for you and me as americans i think a lot of us know about that moment because of the musical hamilton but let me just remind our visitors it was the moment in 17. When the very 1st treasury secretary of the United States persuaded those nascent american states still very young to accept common debt that essentially was the 1st step toward u. S. Fiscal integration which is made the us an absolute powerhouse also one international Financial Markets is the same thing happening here. You know this is a very very small step in the right direction but a small step in way too late that was 1719 the United States was able to florida blossom because of that promise and the promise to pay back all that debt the United States has always paid back the money its borrowed and thats why the u. S. Is such a great creditor and the e. U. Has been hemming and hawing about this question for 2 decades now the euros been around for 20 years but theres no collective debt and thats the fundamental flaw the fundamental weakness of the euro and they knew about this 10 years ago when the eurozone crisis flared out of them and talking about it ever since and now theyre taking a small very baby step towards the hamiltonian moment hopefully it will be there will be something that will bring. Bring they give the euro some some power but im skeptical i doubt its more than a one off in the here and only moment if i can just say this to hamiltonian moment wasnt actually a moment it was a process of fiscal integration that went on over decades into still not finished in the u. S. Yeah and i think the 1st stop loss interesting off the euro navi have to 2nd step is a common depth and i think we have to take a decision on europe has to take the decision of either david continue and up today and also to next chance know who that would be perhaps its a green one you never know how but we have to decide do we go straight on this way or do we stop and then we have to give up all that is common currency i think the idea at the point that they have to take a decision that ridgeway public and i get you to weigh in very quickly on the coming debt is going to. I would like to remind this is not the 1st time to use the shrink death sure it was you was assuring that for the last 10 years but that is going to be the biggest step you know he was in small amounts only for loans and would be for the 1st time which is issuing the programs so this is this is new and the question is if we are the conditionality of that to be Strong Enough for us and sultan drop to actually use this money properly because for some of them to be the last chance to reform the cubs was there would be no 2nd chance so a lot riding on this and a lot riding on another aspect of the deal as well it wasnt only northsouth tensions over frugality that nearly torpedoed the negotiations at the summit so too did east west divisions over linking e. U. Funding to recipient countries compliance with european principles and Democratic Values and rule of law heres more. The text that has been agreed on the rule of law has improved. Its a very clear in the document a very clear commitment to the rule of law and a very clear commitment to the protection of the financial interests of the union and the rich try to make a connection between the rule of law. Was successfully rejected. So kasten pretty contradictory assertion if theyre also left on their law in viktor orban whos right it basically everybody did win because we have a close now in this in the statement off of this damage that say ok we have to put the paying. Law to fulfilling the role of the law by death a little 2nd sentence which says ok but the Member States have to decide so basically also left on the line described by saying ok we dedicated our money to to guarantee that the states that didnt get the money. To want to throw a death also some truth to what you say going to direct it but he can veto such a decision. Let me ask you again your opening state statement talked about the need for reform and also your concern about whether there are enough instruments in the toolbox of the e. U. To compel reform now your own country poland has been under ongoing pressure from brussels for its effort to undermine the independence of the judiciary will this deal change anything. I dont think that there will stay trench on this ng unfortunately you has no real instruments to influence comes just like poland and hungary and you budget your finances fortunately we can still want to do that in the last budget to do it in the last Financial Framework we hope to similar instruments socalled micro comic conditionality to influence the economic policies of Member States and it proved to be actually toothless so i dont think its doing the next 3 years that you will be managed to stop us of coaches get to further destroy the polish institutions let me just follow up on that there are also currently Legal Proceedings ongoing with European Union member countries that have not complied with all of law and those are not yet resolved taken together if they were resolved against the countries if they were found not to be in compliance together with what is it least now a principle of linkage in this deal could that start to change things i dont think that the current government in poland is really making 2 step for was on the way to destruction of the rule of law and once that because when the pressure from the brussels is really high. Again the president of the room but you want elections on 30 questions he has a full power in poland and he can do everything he wants with the judiciary and the efforts that is next up will be published in the in the middle eric you havent been overly optimistic so far about the agreement would you do differ without a gnosis or do you also think this is toothless i think its a nightmare that these Eastern European countries were able to water down things and countries that are trampling on. The state his rule of law limiting press freedom limiting judicial freedom its a worrisome development and they got away with it and you know how can i. Everybody there be a winner how can all 27. 00 countries walk away as winners i dont get it theres always a winner and theres a loser but they all claim to be winners of the e. U. Summit if i bring i for if i can theyre very easy if you imagine trying to 7 families are living in a big house just 27 apartments so everybody that owns an apartment has its own bottoms so do you some europeans have i dont know provinces 7 though they have problems as design by counties and on the basements they have also problems i dont know with the water coming in and everybody is saying oh this is my biggest problem yet and so at the end the 27. 00 old us off these apartments in the big european house it green on the blend that just dedicated to fix the whole house that if it happened or not is a different question but display and basically helps to fix the house and in that way everybody can be given a because everybody everybody can still live in that house one of those boners can block the whole thing and thats the whole we know about it so far and so far not because everybody else to 7 signed disagreement after. The whole thing let me let me ask you for me as a lawyer this is a big provision i grant that the conditionality relating to rule of law yet it is now in a document that will have a certain legal value Going Forward does that not establish some kind of lever that could perhaps be strengthened over time could be could be that exactly that if it happened but we have to see that i mean i think that was the best they could get out its not the idea far from ideal but it is a deal perhaps at that have and perhaps if the water is draining in they do more with this deal still has to be approved by the e. U. Parliament do you think well see any changes i dont think that when it changes because. The government is disparate this money against racial but public prognosis is very broad so we will be very happy to. Received just 160000000000 euros so very briefly i want to come back to our title the question was will this help the e. U. Rebound cassy gave us the great analogy of the common house would you say the foundations are at all stronger through this this deal you know the collectivization of debt was a big step forward and thats something to cheer about chest and they still have to vote on the house. And im not going to get out of the question altogether is having a you more resilient i mean not to do you know a side of that summit is that the e. U. Is still existing that. Rather its small as an infant seat. From their cologne perspective is different its a more resilient of the interventions shift. On the top of your package which make. Possible economic crisis or the crisis. Would be a probable its often said by you leaders that its time for europe to speak with a common voice and to play a stronger role in the world does this deal help it at all to do that well when the e. U. Is good think economically stronger than definitely have a stronger voice and also that. Also increases the international the importance of the common currency so social very crucial for the u. Thank you very much to all of you for being with us for this discussion thanks to all of you out there for tuning in see you soon. As. A member of. To. Take in a globalized world. Where everything is connected. All it takes. To set things in motion a. Local hero show how their ideas can change the world. Global 3000. To 30 minutes on d w. In ghana a trip to the market can be deadly but the farmers install holders have no choice cocoa boy or girl im gonna economy could be flourishing but the people here see no signs of costs crumbling bridges or an overcrowded boats somehow their wares must get to my. The alien life remains a struggle. 75 minutes on w. And i dont need to keep up for a day about a bomb some old fart all over the ranch and on the force im from all of those missing medellin colombia that missed the boat on the. That the last dragons was worth recalling the harm to us not to agree but are not. Carefully. Observed. To begin. Discover. The i. Subscribe to a documentary on. The law. The law. The law. The law the above. This is the w. News live from berlin Security Forces say that they have freed a german woman kidnapped by militants in iraq l m a this works as an art curator in baghdad and has been missing since tuesday for abduction has caused alarm in the capital. Also coming up china orders the closure of the u. S. Consulate in the western city of chengdu the move comes after the u. S. Told the chinese to shut their consulate in houston. U. S. President donald trump cancels the republican party