Welcome to to the point im peter craven and my guests are. Who is a freelance journalist from lebanon who believes that the coronavirus is hitting the poorest areas the hardest and giving some governments an excuse to restrict political freedom. Also with us is dont chevelle us own chip on the chin below hes an editor with t w business here in berlin and he says the e. U. Skewed rescue package could derail european efforts to reset their partnership with africa and a warm welcome suitor Andrew Gilmore executive director of the berlin based conflict president preval Prevention Organization of the back of foundation he argues that disease and conflict feed off each other so it is vital that countries in the west however cash strapped they might be dont cut back on Development Aid and peace assistance. All 3 for being here today id like to begin with you paul she pondered this is clearly a Global Crisis and we tend to say that it impacts everybody but it doesnt impact everybody in the same way whats your take on that well clearly it doesnt i mean if we look at people in african countries the way they are impacted is very different from people in European Countries here in germany there is the program for instance for those who have been furloughed and they can receive some money from the state and thats not the case in most african countries where most people just have nowhere to turn and these are people who generally live on the basis of a daily income so when that is cut away by lock down restrictions that also goes away so they are very very desperate so the situations in terms of how people have been impacted by clearly extremely different depending on where you live there are those nevertheless who say that this is an opportunity for human humanity to rise like a phoenix from the ashes you know in the crisis do you think thats in any way likely. I would like to be an optimist but from what ive seen so far id like to say not yet i think a lot of the focus in europe has been on trying to get the situation within the European Union sorted out and if you look at the United States which is also struggling it is quite clearly the case all the focus has been on fixing things within borders rather than on looking at the problem as extending you know beyond other places and of course we all connected by cause of it but obviously the solutions that are being created at this point are not into regional and intercontinental. Right lets talk about some of the facts here weve already mentioned the death toll this past 500000 people and for the 1st time in 2 decades global poverty is all new the rise is the situation quite simply out of control. It is out of control actually in many countries especially in the poorest countries i mean especially in yemen. Yemen theyre not even testing they dont have even the equipment to test how many people are infected i mean the official numbers coming out from there is a 1200 infection and 350 deaths but there was estimates by the london is just for health and tropical diseases that theres over a 1000000 yemeni infected already and theyre expecting that number to double every 3 to 4 days i mean in places like yemen its a disaster i dont know what the world can do to help them what about your own home country lebanon tell us about that in lebanon its also a disaster i mean the British Ambassador a few days ago described the situation in lebanon as its in a deep hole and its getting deeper and nobody knows how its getting out of course it started. Protests asking for reforms but then the crown of ice came and people said to his that jobs because companies had to close for a long Time Restaurants and all of this and so when the lockdown ended so there were hits by another economic crisis in lebanon where the currency lost 80 percent of its value within a few weeks so whoever had a few savings before that lost their jobs now their savings are gone theyre not worth anything so current of august with the Economic Situation in lebanon has made things much much worse people are saying that its good there its a bigger price for the country than the 15 year civil war that ended in 99 to you exactly i mean i remember the civil war in this even in the civil war i give through it i mean i remember the end of it we were able to go to schools that we never had hungry now people are talking about not being able to afford meat anymore i mean even the army issued a statement saying were not offering meets. Needs to the army to the soldiers because we cant afford it anymore schools are closing private schools of course because Public Schools in the been on our i dont get nobody goes to them private schools are closing because nobody can afford to pay the tuition so kids left without schools 1st because of color and i know because schools are closing under you know based here in germany just give us a quick word on your take on how the German Government is tackling the crisis and i think we can very safely say that compared to the 2 countries that i know best which are the United States and my own country britain germany is handling it remarkably well but but even not comparing it to that very low by i was a genuine 100 it well and it is recognised around the world as having done so what are these huge sums of money that are being spent is it enough is it too much is it not enough i would say it is probably enough in terms of handling the case in germany but is definitely not enough for handling it beyond that ok well talk about that in just a 2nd as weve seen massive sums are being mobilized to prop up the german and the european economies lets have a quick look at that story and well talk about it. Chancellor Angela Merkel and french president manuel my call want to save the European Union from recession at their initiative the e. U. Is making 750000000000 euros available especially to Member States and southern europe. We shall continue to Work Together in the coming months to ensure that europe makes it through this crisis which will continue to affect us for a very long time to come. Germany is also spending a lot in response to the pandemic to protect its industries which is central to the economy its providing more than 500000000000. 00 euros that in the United States the government on the Federal Reserve has so far made to want a half trillion dollars available to support the economy. But what about poorer countries how are they fairing. Which questions begin with germany and europe 1st of all these huge amount of spending that we just heard about does it amount to something that is going to have the kind of impact like and the new Marshall Plan here in europe potentially for europe it could and that is something that has been touched on but obviously it depends on whether the e. U. As i agree to it they are going to have the negotiations on the 17th and of july but apart from that weve also had a lot of criticism of the plan it just doesnt go far enough to help in developing countries for instance any Marshall Plan in the world today should do that and the German Development minister get made well was speaking to media yesterday and he spoke about how that just is too little for developing countries youre talking about the European Union extending all its overall budget for development by 1000000000 every year and that doesnt really go far enough hes calling for a stop light zation program of 50000000000 euros so theres a huge gap. A lot of people say you know its become a commonplace to say were all in this together but were not really our. Oh no the finitely were not i mean take a look at the United States for example there were statistics that people from the Africanamerican Community people in bronx for example in new york are dying at a much much higher rate than they should much more than the white americans im sorry for the language but this is the truth and i mean take a look at germany we dont want to go too far where is that where are the the most concentration of infections at the moment theyre in a Meat Industry where workers work in really bad conditions workers come from mania ambo garia they all live in very cramped flats 9 People Living in one room and there was a video coming out from one of the meat factories showing people eating in a cafeteria together sitting very close to each other without any respect to a socially distancing you know theres the poor communities unfortunately now are being hit the hardest even in developed countries even in countries that are fighting this epidemic the best which is germany but yet we see you know homes you know workers they burgers i mean they are the worst hit. Area listening very sensitively but it must be with some trepidation that you you you hear this about poverty being the poor people being the victims of the. Of the crisis that were facing tell us a little bit about how poverty translates into conflict because thats your real area of expertise well poverty income conflict or absence illing and more poverty leads to much greater conflict and conflict hes going to poverty its a its a cycle but weve not seen a 3rd element of this is that kind of it leads to its feeding obeyed and conflict about feeding off each other and this is the really wiring aspect and this is something that that we have the back of foundation are trying very hard in areas where we are most engaged such as in yemen that i mentioned and afghanistan is to try to get people to put aside their differences and to. Not and try to resolve them in nonviolent means. Tell us about the how important in that equation youve just been describing the aspects of justice and equality because were living in a time where you know all the older figures are telling us that too that theres more and more injustice and theres less and less equality that the rich and poor are growing about right you know thats the key point and as you may know germany just yesterday took over the presidency of the e. U. But also the u. N. Security council and i know ive been with the u. N. For 30 years the germany on the. Key role in recognizing this point about justice and equality because at the basis of every single internal conflict around the world which the Security Council of dealing with human rights is at the core is this some form of exclusion injustice marginalization that lies at the root of every single conflict and this is what we are very much hoping that germany will use its presidency of the council to to push that agenda is not likely to happen well im not so sure and the European Union the European Union countries are totally disagreeing about how this rescue package should go forward i mean as the fool go for it speak of denmark the netherlands sweden and you know they dont want the pact and austria of course they dont want the package to go for go on as it is they want more loans for countries like italy and spain which will be benefiting more from that rescue package and so easily if there is no agreement in the European Union about how they should go forward i can only imagine what they going to do when it comes to talking about other countries outside the e. U. And this is exactly where i think the e. U. Is going to lose out because countries like china have been very effective in you know assisting african countries at this point of course theyve had their own issues with it but its not been quite the same way i think as in a focus within europe which is also a very political thing because of. In a sense that were trying to prevent the rise of populist parties within europe so its a hard balance within europe and for that reason theres a lot of destruction and that is also taking away from the focus that they could put into helping developing countries deal with the problem ok in nearly all the countries that it has in fact coronavirus has affected the poor more than the rest of society 2 examples and i one from germany that weve already mentioned one from bangladesh. Of attorneys company is one of the biggest meat processes in europe and scene of the largest cluster of coal that 19 cases in germany. With many of its workers are brought in from southeastern europe they live and work at very close quarters the virus spread like wildfire 1500 have fallen sick. The situation in bangladesh is not all that different its garment factories also hotbeds of infection many workers have caught the disease in the crowded and poorly ventilated premises up poor people more at risk of coming down with cover at 19 than the well off. You know were going to go to bomb now were joined by our colleagues by ahmed from t ws Bengali Service hes going to tell us a little bit about the situation in bangladesh and especially about the situation in the Garment Industry and supply you have described that in the in the the items youve been writing about about this story you have described the situation as economy down poverty up tell us more. No but actually in a nutshell what i have read in that article that you are referring to is that for the last 2 and a half decades bangladeshs economy has grown especially in the last decade the country was really doing good as economy when duggan overdriven down but during this pandemic things with dollars for example before go vid one in every 5 people in bangladesh was poor and one in every 10 people was extremely poor but during gov it he caught amidst speculate that the number has doubled so if you consider the total population of a 170000000. 00 people 40 percent of it is a huge number almost a total population of germany then who is worst affected by the pend im pandemic is it is it. The poor largely or is it the middle classes as well or is it the society as a whole well of course the holy go to me has been affected the main 2 pillars of the economy export income and flow of foreign reminiscences have dropped drastically but if you talk about people those who are in the bottom of the pyramid are the worst hit while its a daily includes the poor it also includes a part of the middle class who were solely dependent on their monthly incomes and they are mostly from the Informal Sector like recently we were doing reports about people leaving the capital dhaka and heading back to their villages because they are not being able to afford the living cost anymore there. And thats clearly urgent need for reform further reform of the government sector but with with the cash flow problems that are going to result from people from companies in the west not paying as much as they have been or investing as much as they have been that reform is going to be a very tough process. Well yes definitely if you compare with the Previous Year the total exporting reduced around 84 percent and out of this export our own 80 percent comes from this ready made government sector and 4100000. 00 workers are dependent on this industry because of this endemic europe and the us the 2 biggest markets for bangladesh are also suffering so we saw huge order cuts as the industry is only export oriented due to this order cuts so far more than 2000 factories are already closed on those which are real and after this lock down are running at limited capacity hundreds of thousands of workers are also losing their jobs and tell us about how important the issue of remittances is which is a huge source of income for bangladesh. Last year if you see that bangladesh expects in total wired almost 18000000000. 00 to the country so but recently we have seen that the inflow of foreign evidences is also does declined in march they dropped by 2 percent we have seen and in april by 25 percent so and also as david surges that over 1400000 migrant bangladeshi workers out of the 10000000 who live in Different Countries of the world have either returned or are on their way back home due to job losses so impact there as well one last question i just just like to put here is are we actually seeing now in bangladesh people going home griese starvation a problem in the country because the u. N. Food program food program has been warning that that is that is a growing concern. Well it depends on many factors bangladesh grows decent amount of food though according to w f b there are a few millions are suffering from Food Insecurity and also the problem is transporters and what we have seen recently like during the logged on area farmers were unable to transport their harvest so they faced a steep loss thats why as the experts say that the government has to provide them with enough stimulus so that they grow food and the country dont have to deplete depend on imports thats how they can avoid this family and what we are talking about but of course it also depends on how long this pandemic lasts ok samantha and i thank you very very much for joining us now from the former german capital bar and id like to come back to you write a very interesting impressions that from working conditions in bangladesh we mentioned working conditions here in germany and much praise i think its fair to say has been heaped on people working in frontline professions like transport people who work supermarket tills Nursing Education and what have you a lot of people are saying that these these jobs people who work in these jobs should be rewarded more generously paid better when the dust has settled on the crisis is that likely to happen. In this it kind of like a crisis even with this massive package that was a good you dont and they will not lead on yet but in the you that theyre studying now that will that will be konami consequences all the countries and i doubt that that will stop talking now probably it ises by they should because i mean at least in britain i know that they and the chest workers are not being paid but well germany as well and all the nurses dont get paid very well as as good as they should be and this is one of the reasons that its shortage and nurses in germany so yeah i mean those jobs those people who people discover that they had important in the community only in and that make times i mean they should be. Of course looked after. You came mention there under the its interesting last through in the recent days theres been a lockdown in the british midland city of leicester where people have been commenting on high levels of poverty high levels of inequality as contributing to the situation in the city how can that be in a country that is among the top 10 in the world in terms of wealth it is obvious that is almost a logical impossibility that unfortunate the u. K. Has achieved it thats of that of having the highest number of deaths in in europe and the western economy it is staggering to many of us thats going to happen. We. Do we need here when you talk about the mechanisms its all do we need to debate about globalisation and about the problems that globalisation has caused how it leaves people poor people the people at the bottom of society exposed to forces outside their control where we absolutely need to debate but it is not the fault of globalisation that weve got into this mess that weve got into this mess partly as a result of the anti globalist the populist blaming globalization for doing so. The sums that are being spent on in this country and for in europe a massive and rightly so what is being spent on trying to reduce the problems outside this rich area a tiny by comparison and this is i fear very shortsighted because all our indicators are that next year this may be a big increase of violent instability and conflict this road lead to more poverty more extremism and more migration so i really do feel that actually it is in the bin in the life and self interest of germany and the rest of europe to actually dramatically increase the number of money the amount of money that is spent in these places it seems difficult to even imagine doing so at a time where were reveals our cash strapped because of the money that were having to do to spend to keep our own economies going but i do feel theres been a long run it is it would be very much in the interest to increase and im sure germanys minister would definitely agree with what andrews just said there because obviously he pointed that out yesterday when he was speaking with the german press that the gap you know around 49000000000. 00 is a 1000000000 euros rather less and you know what they used planning to do for at least developing countries is just not enough there and he warned of you know a crisis in terms of you know more people migrating from other parts of the world just trying to get some of the prices even Time Magazine for example a very much an establishment publication of you so will in the u. S. Context it has been saying the time for Global Change the time almost for radical change is now is going to happen is it going to happen i would like to be optimist and says yes but i just dont see enough signs and the you know the e. U. Rescue package is one example i mean what was happening in the United States is another american myself grew up in africa so i totally understand i live here so i can just sort of see how things are working and in none of those areas in terms of the political will i dont see the political will to changed. Things in the political world to really Work Together and come up with Global Solutions yeah i just wanted to pick up on this and talk a little bit about how some countries are using this for the political does i mean we saw with lebanon how the government used the coronavirus to stop the protests because there were people protesting every day on the streets demanding you know on to corruption losen someone and also in egypt some people are being arrested because they are demanding better governance for the for the epidemic in you know using the koran i know. That a far from here that was a low passed by the government by the by the problem with i mean now its been repealed by but gave the government or gave the Prime Minister orban power to do it by decree and some opposition now and jos are saying even if the government of the pond has appealed this low but the governments the law has a lot more power than it used to have before i dont know how of course where its ok to go and vote on constitutional reforms that might keep putin and power to the 2036 but its not ok to protest against those reforms because its going on and it might you know spread infections so its really being used by some politicians to advance their own agenda has been a very troubling discussion weve had hundreds there a light at the end of the total people need hope there is light for europe i think we can safely say that for europe the the measures that are being taken provide an element of light for that for much of the world i would say were nowhere near a stage of life in the town and that is why we need to act now to help them if you dont do so im going to you yeah theres not enough light in the end of the tunnel for the rest of the world i mean europe looks like its on a good path i wouldnt say thats the case for ways or africa especially the poor countries obviously. We have to be optimistic or we will be able to fight any more theres always hope theres always optimism just people need to push the agenda they want on that leaders. Ok weve been discussing the link between the corona virus and poverty i hope weve given you plenty of food for thought thanks very much to all 3 of my guests for coming along today. One last word on. Losing. Well i think im what you believe come ashore here and im intrigued to see how you were bring its owners are brought to. See how the e. U. Rescue package unfolds because i think that will help us figure out what happens for the rest of the world at least from the point of view. Ok thanks very much indeed. Staying up to date dont miss our highlights d. W. Program online d. W. Dark calm highlights. Of you all with words from. Where i come from you dont want a way from a confrontation. When i was 5 years old my father took me to his friends and i was hooked on the spot. A sport that you learned sold early enters your soul. Dancing as a language and a good source for it is a conversation. Must keep your opponents and understand the thinking new of the main to get close otherwise you can score a. Song like a tough interview really when interviewing politicians or corporate c. E. O. s you have to wait for the right moment just to get around that defensive then make your move dont feel. You have to take a risk to get was officer. Ive got office and i work a d w. All we can be the generation that ends it good malaria must so millions can live. This is you know you do is live from berlin escape from hong kong the u. K. Opens a door for hong kong ers who want to leave britain pledging to admit millions of people from its former colony after china imposes a sweeping security law but is leaving hong kong a realistic option also coming up tonight u. S. 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