A little nugget. You made for mines. Its a deadly sin. And the way most nature. Get motivated so soon to. And threatens to ruin the most. Greed. Insatiable desire. That drives our. Good city danger. Ive come to impose comfort alyson more because i see the harm is done to the world while south of it is going to take the top. Why are we greet me go in search of a new documentary feel. Greed starts may 21st w. Hello and welcome i am melinda crane in berlin for deutsche of aether and its also joe in paris for france 24 dont believe everything you see on television or read online especially these times of consignments whether its false kovac yours or grand theories and whos to blame this information on corona is spreading there yellin so much so that the United Nations says were fighting not one common enemy but to the virus itself and info demick. Conspiracies lies and the coronavirus info demick how conceives use are they its our topic today in shorts edition of the debate france 24 and so it sure velo with you and were pleased to welcome from paris is a form italian minister for European Affairs former member of the Italian Parliament today member of the European Parliament elected on the sleeve of french president in your next will not become a Party Central could see it for joining us thank you and its a pleasure to welcome here in berlin Francisco Bennett nationally is a member of the german bundestag and she is the Green Party Spokeswoman for european policy initiatives in the southwest of france gentry b. Sociologist of the 1st book was once the students john spoke author of the revolution that wasnt how digital activism favors conservative and if you for joining us happened to be there jen with more time to scroll or in time when weve certainly been exposed to all kinds of ideas since it was the endemic though how much have conspiracy theories give you traction. So conspiracy theories and so health news are something that seems you know still the airwaves of means meet politicians crying crying foul weather and us or france or elsewhere. But the reality is that fake news has always been around propaganda has always been around and yes there is an uptick in people going on line for information because of korean teams worldwide but its really important to keep a fake news and purse active in terms of the actual percentage of news and information that people are both. Boomers of and shares of its a very small part of once you start up small part of it but yet were all exposed to it out of a show you an example right now there was a demonstration over the weekend in stuttgart germany against the wall down and on twitter the euro perhaps or see it there were there was this one tweet about hash tag early were there shulmans to opinion conspiracy theories its a man wearing a plaque are talking about 5 biggest dictators in the last 100 years. Uncle merkel isnt there the head of the seriously party topping the list gentry is bill gates. The bill and Melinda Gates foundation which has been at the forefront of trying to fight the pandemic would you say who gives us more Police George soros as the bogeyman for conspiracy theorists well theyre on different sides of the political cooling right so. On the one hand yes soros has been the bane of. Conservative in terms of. The socalled. Terms of nonfunctioning not a lot of funding for conservative cause but yes bill gates people are targeting him of course because of the work the fascination were foundation has then burning world wide and yes there are ties clearly tie antivaccination movement but if we take a step back really what bill gates i mean a lot. Or a lot of people conservatives particularly the far right is representing what they call the. Right so if you follow what conservatives are to kill or are doing online anybody if you see some tests that are happening worldwide but especially in the United States and had lot down protests really what were seeing a. Long. Really trajectory of conservative being what they call the government right and 1st some vaccines represent a concrete way in which governments actually require him to be too old. To act right getting vaccines or in this case why why this is so much more extreme is the Public Health measures that people like symbolize are foreseeing and you know improving Public Health by requiring confinement were seeing some of those a lockdown the protests here in germany in fact in several different german cities over this past weekend now francisca brought their polls show that the overwhelming majority of germans in fact support the measures that have been taken by the German Federal government on kovac but there is a vocal minority out there that questions both the governments narrative and. Its approach now i know youve been talking to some of your constituents who apparently sympathize with those protests can you tell us what theyre telling you. Yeah i was in the beginning quite shocked when i got emails from people or like friends close to me who are you know saying that they will intention go to that demonstration and i dont really want to find out why and my impression was that many of them didnt know who was really behind those demonstrations was going to be in those demonstrations to get it with them like greeces new nasties at such massive there was not a lot of awareness about who is behind it who will be there what are their conspiracy theories that are you know spread in these frameworks and of course still very legitimate concerns by many citizens and we have screens are also voicing thout and many of those i spoke to because im coming from the southwest of germany with a lot of borders with rasff its a land and many are suffering from the regulation and germany goods that you cannot see your family members and less your for example narrates you must be married but you know usually we have a much broader definition of family in germany now which is you know broad and if you have been for 20 years with somebody you are still not allowed to see that person be married so theyre full who are in their sixtys seventys the day where is this country going to why are we back here if your family i dont understand this and im trying to tell him like its right to protest but please watch out who youre protesting with and as you say there have been concerns that these normal citizens with normal concerns could wind up being instrumental ised for example by the far right or by anti vaccine activists what do these 2 groups the anti vaccine activists and the right wing have in common and do you think that these protests show that the right wing which was marginalized in the beginning of the krona crisis may be about to make a big comeback. You know were trying to look more into the who is bringing the scripts together how does it really work so were still not completely you know we dont have all the knowledge we need but really searching is that what we know so far is that of course what combines these 2 groups is that they are skeptical of science that they dont trust scientific knowledge he said the same people who also deny Climate Change so this more general approach to you know how do we how do we do evidence based politics which is not accepted by you know by far right people to ignore to united Climate Change etc so there are some approaches that they have together and we also have evidence that actors like russia to day do bring 2 groups together and help to mobilize for those causes in very Defense Sector as of society and were trying to look more deeply into that who is catalyzing and which groups are activated. We are quite sure that there must be some help to get these groups together start to go through let me ask you on this in your leader who in the Previous Coalition government you had the 5 Star Movement where there are a lot of answers back cers and you have the far right if the pope 19 pandemic lasts that the sort of the shape of things to come with you. What i mean is that the only it was a fake face you may say one positive effect sofa d all that good on the virus drives the need that he made that they made these up he had the im not saying i mean we dont find them anymore i mean theyre way off represented in parliament by the fi stuff movement and they kept this copy to be very silent and the i would say that if it is supposed effect now it is going to have that them. The virus as showing why on the fundamental feature not only upstream of eastern right but that was a overseen by putin because you need that you got there and it is a deadly cocktail feasting right and 5000 men it is stronger than mistrust effect of science off. Point its based on how can they be dense and i said any of these as being one of the future also for the nice drops on the social networks during the crisis i want to pick up on something francis the promise that he said homespun conspiracy theories sort of fuels and eggs on by outside forces that she is looking into lets take a look Cornell University put together a list of top 10 conspiracy theories here a few of them well plenty bill gates talked about earlier the virus escaped from a chinese lab the other direction u. S. Military exported the virus to china. Plots by the pharmaceutical groups big pharma us theyre not. He doesnt exist thats another one topping the list in the alliance for so article is 5. Friends for the force observers website Catherine Bennett looks into one of the conspiracy theories about the current virus that weve been seeing the most is supposed connection with the building of 5 g. Communications networks around the world take a look at this video in flames engulfing a mobile phone mast in birmingham in the United Kingdom this video was taken on april the 2nd or 3rd he thinks the fire was set to deliberately since then at least 20 other mass across the country have been burned or vandalized but its not just the equipment telecoms engineers are being harassed while theyre trying to do their job but you know what youre doing now youre laying 5 here he realize that they. Say would you do that kills people but where did this theory come from it all began with this man thomas cowan an american doctor whos currently on probation for treating a patient with non approved drugs in a video posted on you tube of march the 12th dr callan claims that convict 1000 is caused by 5 g. Networks that 5 radio waves poison cells in the human body and that causes the virus anybody want to make one just has to wear the 1st completely blanketed by g. 30 in the world was. Exactly scientists have dismissed cowans claims as complete rubbish saying that 5 video waves are Strong Enough to affect the bodys cells all immune system but the video was seen hundreds of thousands of times you tube took it down but people are still sharing copies online and coming up with their own evidence like this map for instance that supposedly shows how the spread of the virus echoes the 5 year old out in france except that france doesnt even have 5 g. Yet the map shown in this tweet actually represent. The well out of 5 uptick in the country people who believe the steering are actually making it harder to tackle the virus type itself the u. K. S National Health Service says that move off most of vital they all want to connect to the countries and that is he said this is what the people who need the most chance are going to it without such a good sheep your thoughts on this 5 sheep theory whose fuel yes and and why well i mean from the means that the rubbish i mean it is im amazed to where he. Absolute theory is but the idea you got the problem however i mean the 1st problem is that as i saida everybody can say anything today because nobody i trust theres a whole experiment and the socalled official saying if you will and we have to walk on it we have to restore its trust to all those who carry out Research Study is. Carry out serious warka for the benefit or for. The 2nd problem that is the problem of the east up latham because that in your view you know you show that these ups of theory was spread out and then you tube intervene i think that we have to do much more. And we must be much more demanding with the platform because they must be our allies in fighting this kind of absolute theory and in fighting it war against machine for me which otherwise would really threaten our democratic regime in our society is and i think that the sound thing which as being a put down to my strong ally that you called me in 1000 cries. So let me ask about that very matter because in fact social media including Facebook Twitter they say that they are trying to remove covert 1000 dissin from ation from their platforms an unusual move actually from facebook that has in fact refused to remove quite a bit of other contact how good a job are they doing of policing this content. Social media platforms in general do a terrible job of policing misinformation because their algorithms are actually designed to promote dissent from ation and fake news right so the top 10 fake news around coben 1000. 00 that we just saw it was really easy in just a couple words of brief headline to seen what that information is and its also negative information and that type of simplistic. Hyperbole dramatic sensational information is really what social ringback media and its algorithms promote right so if we rely on yes a small group of content moderators or an algorithm that may draw a few keywords in and eliminate them yes that can happen but thats just tinkering with the margins it doesnt address the fundamental problem of the social media platforms which is that theyre designed for barry basic simplistic and in many cases false information so a quick follow up in regard to ourselves to the Mainstream Media as i mentioned a franciscan branton or in fact polls show that the vast majority of germans are absolutely confident in the government approach we in the media report quite a bit about the protesters who are not satisfied do we in a way give the conspiracy theorists and purveyors of misinformation too much of a platform. In many ways i think that. The right now what were seeing right if were covering it the media researchers are looking at whats happening with protesters right its the anti corn 1000 protesters who are in the streets right thats just a given and about your question of how many people they represent i think its a mistake this may vary country by country but it is a mistake to under estimate the entire conservative ecosystem that these protests represent right so if you look at far right. Officials that have been elected worldwide over the past 4 years. Including the bracks that vote whether were talking about trump and the west or both and narrow in brazil. Social media yet was a part of what was going on but the other key point is that if we just get rid of that that misinformation its not going to get rid of the ecosystems of grassroots conservatives who are meeting on a regular basis now theyre doing it online but for coping 19 were meeting in Community Centers and all over a lot of western European Countries as well as particularly in the u. S. But i think if we imagine that this is just a coping one teen issue or its just an information or science issue that were really missing and one more point its more than just the money its more than just rush and this information thats what weve seen throughout history is that. Authoritarian authoritarianism brought on by fascism or right wing movements. Often happen not because a leader comes in and fills a vacuum. But because there are a lot of Strong Civil Society really supporting that and we cant overlook that support so and i know that francisco bonded to Say Something to the same question if you would francisco be great if you could be brief because we do want to get on to one or 2 other topics but also just a very quick question on facebook it has now announced a new Supervisory Board that supposedly is going to help do a better job of content moderation what do you think is going to work you know we need much more legal frameworks of facebook and co we also need to split facebook from whats app from twitter its all one data were not really thats not acceptable so we too much more legal action to get that the huge problem for our democracy and the control and to the question do you report to match you know i think there is a lot of there are a lot of various out there about the Current Situation i dont know anybody whos not us in the south big life question so its understandable and none of us has all her knowledge and were still getting into more data so i think you know we should not underestimate how many people have to out and i think we need to have reporting that shows who is really demonstrate and who is behind it so its not enough to say there are 10 people in the street but your job is also to so was be i know how many races were there how many you know signs did you have that its a big lead in germany. And yes overall probably the biggest majority in germany is looking for some vaccine and is hoping that they can get one and only minorities afraid of it but still you know its important to report on that phenomenon but francisca rattner are hard to buy something gentry said earlier which is that these platforms theyre all humans arent cater to simply stick mr chips there its what theyre built for d so rotten you. No i you know. We also are left to come up with their easy answers that i understand it will to have a Clear Communication so im not against saying you know something must be complicated and only then is it true. But what we have to avoid is that we have you know really saved news that we have researchers we have these artists you know thats what we have to control and thats where facebook is not going far enough and not doing its job as well we need more immediate constraints on facebook and co and as i said we need to split it up that they dont normally not acceptable. What do you think the center goes away would you agree that we need to actually break up facebook. Well we certainly need a new approach. At least to your level because it is clear that the situation of global and go only go potty which i was also raised to fundamentally shows on. And on the protection and they i agree with that francisco we have also to promote or throw out the sources on the social network which is not being done in a simple way but also at the sources and not so much rubbish and we have seen that in the near before we have to be moved to kong and that is fox is full is always missed or misleading and we have been but we have to be very effective in doing the set and we have down got on vent all content that would provoke if you seek out or a ball that hard and now all these to do it is not being done enough and that is why i think that also in the light of the 1000 crisis myself and not only because of the coming i think crisis we are to promote at least if you will and that you regulate their approach in the new regulation especially for. Social platform both on seeing. The issue of the dot dot the story just and their active role in fighting fighting against the f. A. Q. Was amusing for me. So given the limitations of what social media can or are willing to do on their own lets talk a little bit about what we can and should expect from political leaders the french government put up a coping 19 detox a website that was aimed at exposing this information on the coronavirus but it quickly found itself compelled to take this website down so let me ask you this center gauzy french the french Journalists Association said that the website overstepped got the Governments Authority and violated the principle of freedom of opinion would you agree with that. I think it is they do our street is this and i think it was excessive and i think that in this a story called moment in these political face we have to find new means of fighting and provide and. On the social network and the media also the older media of certainty is a constitutional freedom also of course protect the in france the freedom of expression i do say that we have also and not a right as citizens in france and those who have the right to be properly informed the right not to be. Constant the big enough for white and so i think that if the france me yeah we are so worried about a website of the french government that way i mean i think thats true also dusan seem all to ensure our freedom of information and to ensure free all information hes. Putting forces to fight to fight misinformation unfortunately and not only in france let me say that the desert meaning that it will be the opposite it is not they do traditional media who are trying. To influence in a positive way their way information on these around or is denied in this social net going to social media i thought if the opposite is the other way around im for the old its a nation on used for example there are more and more looking for sensational news more and more looking for Conspiracy Theory since went inside somehow because they yanked around after dinner ok. Yeah well give us an example of that. And i mean and i still mean the example of the campaign and they think it thinks of some some some campaign that they even frank leading newspaper are doing based on something that they dont they havent verified. That they said stop this. I dont want to mention newspapers but they think that in france and since i think for me seems 2017 ive seen so many examples of these and also all the go all smaller camping against me in your file and around by means your friends your space without property very find the sources and i think that this is an effect of a social network a way of running the information treat you agree. So there are 2 ways to look at this question one is what is the role of the government and what is the role of the news media and what weve been talking about is this tension between. The governments right the role of the state and the role of the individual right and so when we talk about fake news i think we havent really defined what it actually is right because you also have a country like russia where 3 doctors so far have fallen from the floor as we have no idea what happened they spoke out about conditions with the krona virus theres also a fake news law in russia now in the name of protect you know promoting Accurate Information in russia around covert 19 but the result is actually. You know a way to you know diminish. Free speech right its just a ruse and donald trump talks about critiquing fake news so what are we today really critiquing who other really important piece it is that weve been talking about is how is the Mainstream Media a part of this distribution of socalled fake news. When i use it when its a critical city or in some. Publications from mr roberts are chasing after sensationalist. So some of it depends on what news outlet right but even very legitimate. Means stream media is that journalists often have a 2 sided approach to an issue right so especially as science is so new around cope at 19. And by the way we have this idea that science is this perfect truth which of course its not and its changed because its changing so quickly in fact the World Health Organization keeps changing what theyre what theyve recommended as more information has come forward that journalists want to present both sides so if donald trump for example or a politician says yes this drug is important what i see even legitimate outlets in the u. S. Like n. P. R. Or the New York Times will say well donald trump and some people say that you know clorox read news on. You know to prevent or treat kovan 1000 but when we talk to doctors they Say Something else right and so and thats an extreme example but i think that this idea of 2 sided ness doesnt work with science and thats what were talking about today let me come back to recommendations like the one that was made by President Trump that people might give some thought to ingesting either disinfectant or bleach francisca brander you have expressed concern that the corona crisis could actually wind up fostering and fueling populism what do we do when it is political leaders themselves like trump but also say brazils bosn r. O. Who are purveying this information. Yeah how many times have i thought how this crisis would have gone differently if we had instead of. Obama or Hillary Clinton they would 1st have called a g. 20 meeting we would have had some concerted action yet scary to have instead somebody like sean whos promoting fake news and conspiracy theories for me as you are in it just shows that we have to take out. A lot of cuties that a west of us would have taken in such a crisis so for me you know i cant do much about the us scary and i pity my friends who who are you know very worried about their own country and we can only strengthen the Progressive Forces and those who still go with the troops and with you know Scientific Evidence that changes every day but still you know it evolves in the end it exists and so i think we as europeans have to take on more have to be more concerted specially we have to be united and solidarity because if we dont get it nobody else will help us and Gen Chris Reddy maybe also to the question of a top down decision from ation like that which has been pervaded by President Trump is a part of the difficulty that its very difficult to contradict or deny false information like the police claim without immediately being falling into the trap of polarization essentially being stamped by Trump Supporters as as yourself part of the conspiracy. Absolutely the role of idiology is crucial here it doesnt and ways it doesnt matter what type of information is put out when you look at factors like idiology so for those of us who study this question around fake news there are a variety of factors that make a difference education level is one but idiology is key i can see on social media conservatives analyzing the exact same article as progressive and coming up with extremely different extraordinarily different reaction even beyond the question of right even with jim it articles about certain. You know drugs that are being tested right now very different viewpoints and in terms of your point about the how top down it is again we have to in order to combat this we have to start from the bottom up right so conservatives are effective because of a lot of organizing d thats happening as well as of course money conservative media etc but on the ground right so what kind of media education is happening Media Literacy lit literacy science literacy right now is really key and with so many people out of work right now i think it would behoove a lot of especially the more democratic countries to consider putting a lot of people to work in this type of grassroots effort for science and for information that serves the Public Health you know so you have donald trump whos got his message where if you know we talk about liege playing the chinese call you to hong virus. And you have the chinese little have belief that they have. Legal mystical look. Its overwhelming our medical system. The virus is killing doctors. Its here boy under multiple gara little prayer everyone stay at home towns that are floating around much our numbers are now dropping on his or her mothers. We wore masks the real crime you know to make of the tower of pisa starting to leave your son. What do you make of that that was put out last month. About the video youve just shown the. I going to be very blunt with you im very concerned with a global like this Information Campaign run by china. And not only china but china has played a key role in these and i was and was im still very concerned with the fact that that these provide ganda as being supported by the part of the day young government during the crisis we have seen the foreign minister and we can unite the face the moment and then he does so the face of movement basically promoting the chinese provide and making things that they they and that germany france that never had any and there is the me in this report by the way you and over emphasizing their support received by china also by russia but there was a that i would say that the chinese propaganda was indeed that he may not have by the then government itself and i think that is to me disturbing for the European Union i think that the chinese provide and has been very strong its way in europe and theres been also strong in the war that theyre going to is ation within the United Nations i dont see why the Security Council is not acting very quickly because they called me back and they called me one thing for example it is a threat to International Stability and there again youve got china our russia on that breaking down thats going down so i think that we have a major issue which is certainly as it was say before not only link to one theme i think theres been not only fight bike i mean 1000 and i think that is something that we have to watch out very closely and if the is not then and there will be important yeah youve got youve got European Union sort of in the middle of this battle between the superpowers france is the brother he had the. One voice that beijing was chastised for going the long china daily becoming just. Party newspaper in china. Pretty innocuous open letter calling for more cooperation they removed a reference or reduced the fact that the pandemic originated in china your forecast. Yeah i answered very worrying what joe chinese influence is doing right now already in the e. U. And i think we have to be extremely careful about it but let me also be very clear as dad we as european need to help each other much more strongly and you know yes i know and its elite and i sorry germany did have an export star off the magical devices you need of italy to italy that was terrible it was sold wrong and yes the chinese did have a better p. R. Campaign around it but still again do our job and if now we dont invest enough and its a leader who will not save Italian Companies yes the chinese investors will come and buy it emma you know if we are that stupid to allow that its our always take lets not target chinese or lets make sure we do the job we have to do so were just about at the end of our show but gentry if you would very briefly please will we see the info demick peter out of its own accord as societies start to move out of lock down and back into some semblance of normal life. So i think there is not going to be a big change in the problem with fake news and dissent from asia and until some of these broader political and social class issues are really addressed and thats something that were doing at the ends of the 2 are. So silly. Were studying so my advice is to Pay Attention to people on the ground and also Pay Attention to scientists and social scientists who are studying it so that policymakers can enact policies that actually make sense and are not at the bidding of a Silicon Valley so even if we see the pandemic when the info demick may well stay with us thank you very much to all of our guests for joining us for this special edition of the debate with daughter bella and false that cut by for not. Good. To. Get. Into the conflict zone. South korea has been hailed as a model country in bringing its corona virus infection rate under control but the methods have raised privacy and public shaming concerns and now there are the courts that the virus is back again my guest this week a south Korean Foreign minister can children off because her government made too many compromises on citizens privacy in its efforts to contain the chemical conflicts often to keep a close in 30 minutes on the d. W. M. Whole. Ongoing crazy thing in full time. How to handle our new allies in times of the corona and then x d w reporter. Just like arizona. And shes looking for answers and thankfully with the help of cleaning expect a few other well. Thank you bruce is not life as we know it. In this example our new web series of. How does a virus spread. Why do we panic and when well all understand and you just through the topics covered in a Weekly Radio Program show is called spectrum if you would like and more information on the crown of virus or any other science topic you should really check out our podcast you can get it wherever you get your podcast you can also find us at twitter dot com look for it slash science but. Some people dont care about me. Because they dont see my puti. Some people dont care about me because they think i have nothing to give. But 2000000000 people do. Too then i am everything. Their home. Their food. Their livelihood. But day by day i disappear. And so does everything i gain. 2000000000 people care about me. Me me. And now. I need you. Faces date over the news line from birth in the bundesliga is back the german football a becomes the 1st major league in europe to resume action no fans are allowed into the stadiums but while their absence felt on the pitch also coming up with infection so on the decline italy and ounces it will allow travel to and from the country from the early june tourists from the e. U. Will be able to visit without going to our intent and. Meeting at the border to germany and luxembourg fall