Transcripts For DW The Day 20240713

Until there are a lot of ways you can hold them accountable were doing very serious investigations as you probably know to secure the sole purpose of deflecting attention responsibility for the insufficient response to Epidemic Prevention and control this home because we believe it could have been stopped at the source it could have been stopped quickly and it would have spread all over the world and we think that should have happened we would have to have times by u. S. Politicians to shift the blame to china not denigrate chinas response to the virus and i would help the u. S. Also coming up tonight to the u. K. Health system is being hit by the full force of the corona Virus Outbreak tonight well hear from the doctor on the front line so trust that even. If you get people about this if you find a lot. It what you owe. It to our viewers on p. B. S. In the United States and all around the world welcome we begin the day with an attempt to hold china responsible for. With a pandemic and an attempt to make china a pig it is nothing new that u. S. President considers china part of the problem when reporters ask about the u. S. Is slow response to the coronaVirus Outbreak trump has been accused of scapegoat china for his own lack of action accusations and insinuations labeled as president ial hyperbole thats one thing but a formal investigation into china on orders of the Us Government well that is another level with serious consequences for all parties not just the president yesterday trump once again attacked china saying that beijing could have stopped covert 19 from ever leaving the country and for the 1st time he said that the u. S. Is investigating chinas handling of the outbreak and he suggested washington may seek damages from beijing a real threat to deliver justice or just Election Year posturing by the president we have more now in this report he failed to act so no trump and is it an adequate use by joe biden comes pain slamming President Trump for his handling of the condemning trump crease the chinese 15 times in january and february as the Coronavirus Spread across that this is no time and the trump come pain has its own ad portraying joe biden as too cozy with china by consulting a 1000000000. 00 deal with a subsidiary of the bank of china. China is going to. Come. Theyre not bad folks but in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic china has become a central compay an issue in the u. S. President and his likely challenge joe biden battle over who is tougher on that coming with regime in beijing and there seems to be bipartisan agreement that bashing china and projecting a strong man image has political benefit. For the nonce trump blaming china for the spread of the virus just like from his own habit he criticise response to the pandemic his relations strategist seem to believe it may be the best way to win a difficult election but is it. We catch up with Michael Steele a conservative commentator and former Republican Party officials says that you know all the hiring and noise about china now is to make up for what he said about china when this whole thing began or worse you were. Since you were. Going up the steps and actually the big thing in rwanda elsewhere so i dont think thats one of the benefits you know now coming back and saying oh sorry youre a bad boy from strategy may even backfire his flattery of president xi of china his initial praise of chinas transparency during that pandemic the biotin come pain can turn that against him but joe bidens own past china policy as a Vice President and senator and his son hunter his business dealings with the country make him vulnerable to. Bashing china is almost a tradition in here ask president ial elections but this time its happening and its a dangerous pandemic retesting aarons is executive director of the Asian Pacific american advocates shes a worry to about the impact the pandemic is already having an Asian Americans and as a result weve seen a huge increase in discrimination and harassment in americans within this country everything from verbal assaults dating brain is lashing Chemical Substances to outright physical violence even on young children. 3 to happen aaron says concerned that the political confrontation over china could lead to more harassment and is also likely to further deteriorate you ask china relationship whoever wins the election. Or relations between the u. S. And china have deteriorated this pandemic with washington accusing beijing of misleading the world in the early days of the coronavirus. Break a bill is now before the u. S. Senate that would allow a lawsuit against a foreign state that deliberately conceals information thats connected to a Public Health emergency and this week the u. S. State of mississippi joined missouri in its lawsuit against china which alleges that china misled the World Health Organization about the corona virus and even censored information about the outbreak litigation and legislation will tonight we want to take a closer look at International Law and how a case could possibly be made against china my 1st guest says that there is a case and a legal pathway for pursuing it now the foundation of his legal argument can be found in the book that he coauthored in titled trans boundary harm in International Law lessons from the trail smelter arbitration the book focuses on an environmental case toxic smoke from a smelter in the 1930 years in which canada agreed to allow itself to be sued by the United States Russell Miller is the coauthor of that book and hes my guest tonight russ is the j. V. Stump professor of law at washington and Lee University in the state of virginia in the u. S. Russ its good to have you on the day you and attorney william star shaq you took your book as a basis and you brought it into the present day pandemic you wrote an article laying out the argument that china is liable for damages under public International Law lets start very basic here what is public International Law. Well brant we have to distinguish between the cases referenced earlier in the story from mississippi and missouri and you might have mentioned a handful of class action lawsuits filed by individuals as well each of those cases seek to use u. S. Law domestic or International Law to assert liability in the case of the virus but public International Law involves the law that establishes rules that govern the relationships the rights and responsibilities between states is a much different regime its not the same thing as as expecting to bring china into a u. S. Court on the basis of u. S. Law this is a regime of law that governs all states so ok in the arguments you make then tell us what exactly are you claiming against china. Well the argument draws on as you mentioned the historic trail smelter arbitration case that case involved pollution drifting into the United States in the late twentys and early thirtys from a large smelter facility in canada and after private lawsuits like the ones we just mentioned in missouri or or mississippi or class action suits failed to produce compensation for the farmers in the state of washington who were harmed by the smelter after those cases failed the United States took up the cause of those farmers and International Law and remarkably candidate agreed to be brought before an Arbitrator Panel in that case and that Panel Established some fundamental rules of public International Law the 1st is that no state should be allowed to use its territory or allow its territory to be used to create harm in another States Territory and the 2nd principle was that if a state does that allows its territory to produce trans boundary harm then it should pay compensation for those damages and so the basis of our claims in the recent article draw from an analogy to that trail smelter incident in the thirtys and early fortys its possible to imagine that that chinas negligence in establishing affective food and Health Regulations is the basis for for trans boundary harm now emanating all over the world and rosie so you say there is president here so this is definitely more than just an academic exercise but im wondering how realistic is it to expect that this kind of legal challenge against china will ever gain a real traction and before you answer that i want you to take a listen to how the Chinese Foreign Ministry Last weekend responded to the u. S. State of missouri suing the peoples republic of china take a listen. How did you find the 1980 s. Aids was 1st found in the United States and is now spread all over the world and should i dont know how many people in the will suffer from aids has anyone found the United States to blame me would be the one im all right there ross when you hear that response rather outrageous there with aids in the u. S. Being responsible for aids how realistic is it in your opinion that china would ever recognize a legal claim against it like try it like canada did in the trails milter case but that clip doesnt give me a lot of hope that that china would take the past that canada did in the thirtys and fortys canada saw that it was in its best interests as a Good Neighbor and as a potential trading partner to engage in that the suit i described trail smelter so that clip isnt very promising i had more hope even just a few days ago as we saw other powers the United Kingdom and European Union representatives expressing dismay at chinas intransigents or in transparency but weve seen even in the last few days that europeans are walking back some of their criticisms in that sense its a matter of of china gauging its best interests whether it might see it as a good path forward to to submit to Something Like the trail smelter arbitration well lets assume that china were to go along with this what amount in damages are you suggesting that beijing should have to pay and to whom with that money good and who would administer it for example. Thats the maybe one of the more complicated parts of this proposal that that weve set out of course the trail smelter case involves a large measure of attempts to divine the actual liability for the harm that was detected in the United States and that might be the most valuable part of our proposal it it would submit claims of chinese liability to open transparent. Rational arguments and china could make its own case there and that setting for its responsibility but if you just take the at the Current Conditions produced by the pandemic. A few weeks ago we were willing to say that that this was Something Like a 6 trillion dollar liability of course the United States has already met something close to half of that in the emergency measures the congress hasnt acted. So maybe thats thats a generous under estimate but again the actual determination of damages would be would benefit from open in gauge mint and rational argument you know proceeding what you described rational argument cross a legal challenge like this would be very political im sure just even with you and i discussing this on this program that im going to get a lot of criticism at the end of the day in your opinion do politics do they hurt the search for justice in this case more than anything else. Certainly politics could be a barrier to this but i want to underscore that these claims were not in any way meant to be a kind of china bashing sura lesson from the trail case is that canada benefit immensely from its participation and we can imagine china benefiting at the very least reputational from engaging with its partners around the world to discuss try to identify liability here theres a hidden element that emerged from the trail smelter case as well and that is that canada emerged from the arbitration as a kind of technological leader with respect to pollution mitigation and china i could imagine seeing that as a Long Term Benefit as well this is not meant to be china bashing its an invitation for china to participate as a Global Partner in the way that it imagines itself participating well lets hope that the voices of reason and rational thinking that they do come to the fore and that its you know voices like you are get a bigger form than they have right now miller the. Law at washington and Lee University school of law in virginia we present your time in your insights tonight take care and stay safe stay healthy thank you thanks for the conversation. Today britain held a minutes silence to pay tribute to frontline workers who have died after contracting 19. 00 british media report that more than 100. 00 National Health Service Staff have now died from the virus and these were the scenes on Tuesday Morning in the u. K. The u. K. Government has announced that it will make a 60000 pounds compensation payment to families of Health Workers and social care staff who died fighting the outbreak thats about 70000 euros critics of the governments response to the pandemic say todays compensation payment offer reveals that the crisis within the ukase National Health system. Where the u. K. Has seen more than 21000 people die after contracting could 19 years of underfunding and Staff Shortages and now a severe lack of personal protective equipment have all left the british National Health system and its workers buckling under the strain of the coronavirus medics knowing that their work makes them a target of the virus. Went on and on flea found that protects him from corona virus dr assays munaf almost feels guilty every time he puts one on hes an emergency doctor so he does have access to past not protective equipment or people. But supplies across the u. K. Are very limited and simply arent enough gowns for every doctor i want to go to and take a chance of. Conscious use it to you they call box of supplies going alas alas alas thats every time because they only have to marry if you know we are in a high risk are not 3 quarters of all you can talk to say they dont have access to protective clothing mises and mosques are also in short supply some doctors are having to buy their own f f p 3 masks from the i y stores and from building that fence. And also having to do things like make their own aprons out of rubbish bin bags to try to protect their closing while staging these iris to see just over 100 medical staff doctors as well as nurses have already died from the virus on social media videos like this having said hospital workers paying their last respects to a continent even before the crisis the u. K. Was short of over 40000 nurses staff are now on the enormous pressure even very experienced nurses and pushed to the edge and we have a lot of newly qualified staff who only been in the job 6 months or one year and theyve really been pushed pushed to 2 to breaking point we are and. Already underfunded we need more doctors the nessus to work in the n. H. S. Even in normal times so at the moment we are above and beyond what we ever thought that we could be intensive and working and that were trying our best that we do need mostafa we need more equipment and that is a result of underfunding of the last decade and patients all suffering to hospitals are having to ration supplies make oxygen on dialysis food for patients with kidney failure. Dimona describe situations where older patients that might if benefited from intensive care has been denied treatment whereas a few months ago people who were 65 would sit at your basic events and its now if you scratch your soul stripped it so the trust of it even looks to you people the book there is a 55 i think you should which i deemed. By texaco you did but the i. C. U. People project a lot. It white full of rushing britains National Health service is facing its biggest emergency since its founding. Over moral of the story lets cross now to carlisle in the u. K. And bring in dr John Campbell he also works as an independent Health Analyst he has generated a large following on social media partly due to his reasoned and rational insights into this pandemic dr campbell its good to have you back on the day we just heard a doctor saying that he believes access to ventilators is being rationed in the u. K. Is that something thats happening across the country. No thats not really my experience now im not directly working in intensive care anymore but i do have quite a few contacts in intensive care units in different parts of the country and theyre telling me that in most parts of the country outside of the london area theres actually still some reserve capacity so for example in the local intensive care unit here there are empty beds at the moment so we still do have some intensive Care Capacity now it has been full and in parts of the country it will be full but that normally happens anyway so at the moment at the moment hospital beds and intensive care beds are available in most parts of the u. K. Most of the time i dont think its quite as bad as that doctor was intimating to be quite honest. We saw that today across the u. K. People held a moments silence for medical staff who have died during this pandemic in the u. K. Our medical staff are they working without the necessary for detection and if so why is that well again its not really my experience locally that my contacts in the local hospital are fairly well supplied with p. P. A. At the moment to not have a regular supply of it and some parts of the country probably do and out in some periods of time and these are the ones that do tend to make the headlines when people do go now because if people have plenty of p. P. D. Thats not really that no they are now where there has been problems is with the quality of p. P. A. Sometimes and particularly in the cassock so it seems that the the acute care sector is often prioritized for p. P. In the cas sector which has had a lot of deaths a lot of cross infection often has struggled much more than the acute care sector i think. Id like to bring in a quote from a leading german viral logis is named as christians or alston is a household name here in germany and he told the Guardian Newspaper that the rollout of testing in germany was driven in part by Market Forces which made it fast and that wasnt the case in the u. K. His words now though i have the impression that the u. K. Is really gaining momentum in this regard and that it is coordinating testing efforts better than germany and quote so christin the cost and says that the u. K. Is even ahead of germany when it comes to the coordination of testing so what is the British Government doing right here. Yeah i would i would say were doing as well as germany at the moment so far in this pandemic the British Government and or in britain with 8. 00 tests per 1000 people we have germany has out over 24. 00 tests per 1000 people so germany is still well ahead but youre right the importance of testing has been realised now in the u. K. Its gone from centralised to more regionalized areas where the testing is being carried out although its still on every hospital and over the past 24 hours weve carried out 43000 test which isnt a huge amount because 73000 eventually been available and of course the government is committed to getting up to 100000. 00 tests a day by the end of the month which of course is only a few days away its friday so parts of the problem has been the availability of tests but now its also a matter of the logistics of how those tests are administered and given to the people that need them so for example there were testing made available to workers in care homes last week but many of them couldnt physically get there whereas now this units which are doing mobile testing actually taking the testing facility to the cat home so the testing can be carried out there so its getting more targeted because its not just the amount of testing its how that testing is targeted and given that the death rates are so appallingly high in care homes at the moment in the u. K. Thats being given a priority now and all the stuff and all the symptomatic patients that are going to be tested but again weve got about one minute here how do you explain why britain has one of the worst rates of infections in mortalities in europe and in this pandemic i mean whats the reason in your opinion. I think its because there was a lot of Community Spread before people realized there was a lot of spread going on so there was generally a reactivity so the philosophy seemed to be that well when weve got a problem we will address it where is really what we should have been saying well no were going to have a problem 23456 weeks down the line and been much more proactive rather than simply reactive south think weve waited for problems to happen so the lockdown for example didnt start till the 23rd of march in the u. K. And really that was too late and i believe theres a lot of spread in schools for example which actually close quite late in the u. K. Not the children have suffered badly themselves but of course children pass it on to their parents and not to their grandparents as well so i think it was basically late recognition that we had a problem that there was a stoppage Community Spread and the lockdown measures were taken reactively not proactively dr John Campbell is always an example we appreciate your insights in your time tonight thank you pleasure. Well the day is almost done the conversation continues online youll find us on twitter you can follow me to broadcast t. V. Dont forget to use the hash tag the day every member whatever happens between now and then tomorrow is another day well see you then of. Influence perception. Thinking im. Going to change attractive appearances into forms to easily finally see the danger. More companies when the bubble. Get kind of clash the made in germany. Is never satisfied. I always have doubts something can only achieve artistic quality if you question it. 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