Merkels designated successor and party leader on the bridge from common by step to down the power struggle to succeed or is now in full swing our topic today fiasco in for india will the a. F. P. Destroy americas legacy and. On. And on and. Thanks for joining us on to the point and welcome to our guests Matthew Condon is chief correspondent for the us magazine politico he believes the a. F. P. Hasnt destroyed americas legacy the a. F. D. Is americas legacy what happened in the regio offers a glimpse of the chaos that lies ahead for germanys political system and great to have derek scally with us he is correspondent for the irish times and he says german politics is finally enter the 21st century but its been all the titians are too naive or scared to notice. And of a welcome to vent alina fun to plato she writes for the economist and she believes fragmenting politics and strong extremes are up ending germanys traditional parties with the social democrats in even worse shape than america c. D. U. So derek i think actually many people have the impression that german politics are staged to the point of perhaps the home this that you say they are now finally entering the 21st century what does that mean it means we have sort of the reality of fragmentation happening elsewhere in europe but never really happened in germany germany was solid like a sensible pair of shoes not very glamorous but you know you can go a long way and i mean next thing will be having a sex scandal you know in germany is very staid politics but maybe everything is possible at this stage that is that you refer to fragmentation and strong extremes germanys weekly site says that the party system is now more unstable than it ever has been before would you agree with that and what are the implications well i guess not since the why over public that was a time of great instability about i would agree with the assessment of that side and i think thats great uncertainty about what the future will bring given the fact that the 2 big traditional parties what they call here the people is a fox but i seem to be in decline the s. P. D. Is in if it was shaped the social democrats. Face then the question that will cross i met you somebody looking from outside germany at all of this could be forgiven for saying ok so the christian democrats in the small eastern state vote side by side with the a. F. D. Party whats the big deal doesnt democracy often creates rather unusual and uncomfortable bedfellows absolutely and i think thats why its difficult for a lot of people outside germany to understand the uproar that this is caused and that its led to these resignations and all of this soul searching and it really shows how how deep the 2nd world war really remain here and when people you know refer to weimar which obviously was you know this period that led to to hitlers rise it really strikes a chord with people and i think you know germans would do well maybe to stand back into to listen. People outside the country a bit and look to other systems and see that this is perfectly normal to have multiple parties in a parliament if you look at the netherlands they have i think 12 parties or Something Like that in their parliament you dont have to go to that extreme but germany has for so long had this very cosy system of just a few parties dominating their politics in hysterics says now theyre really moving into the century and i think for a long time they felt that this threshold that they have a 5 percent any party needs to get 5 percent in order to get into parliament that that would shield them from this kind of fragmentation and that has turned out not to be the case absolutely in fact that was decided post world war 2 partly because of the Weimar Republic and the fragmentation that occurred at that time so to see why this event in through india has since shock waves all the way to berlin let us take a closer look at what happened in their india. It was a scandal even though his party got the fewest votes thomas chemistry was surprisingly elected state premier of 13 jr. He secured the position with the votes from the c. D. C. You and a. S. D. For the 1st time in german postwar history with right wing populist straight the king makers. According to a court ruling heir to leader bjorn hooker may now be legally called a fascist many saw chemists handshake with him as a to break out. A gesture from this left Party Politician has become a symbol of protest even chancellor merkel who was on a state visit to south africa spoke out. Of this on this of action was unforgivable and so the results must be river. But even the new premiers resignation couldnt calm the storm democratic election or to break what message chancellor in just sent. Then to win it it is unclear to this day to what degree the christian democrats in theory actually overtly coordinated with the f. T. On that 3rd round of voting that occurred nonetheless the reaction from berlin was absolutely immediate and fairly negative as we have seen so why what is behind this taboo and even in direct coordination with the a. F. P. I think that merkel and the leadership of the party decided we cannot work with the f. T. There are extremists we can know if we dont want to and that would be the start of the decline of the c. D. U. And of course if you break that consensus if you start chipping away at the consensus then. Then it just doesnt work any more so thats why i think the reaction was also so strong as it impossible we have to live as that particular development yet derek it looks like not everybody within the Christian Democratic Party necessarily subscribes to this taboo the fact is that the local party leader there in the regio he was told before hand by a great crime Current Power dont do this he went ahead did it anyway and when she castigated him afterward he didnt take orders exactly so he is still in his job he said he would resign but he hasnt shes lost her job because she had no authority she couldnt imposes on these local parties because germany is such a big country every federal state 16 of the author individual character and for obviously for these people interns they felt doing a deal covertly or and uncle working with the f. T. With and to get a left wing premier out of the state of power in the state was the lesser of 2 evils for them. Having a left wing government was only acceptable on a partly the f. T. For them was acceptable really says a lot of a german politics that actually while berlin americal is sort of the brand name in particular in eastern germany you know there are a lot more conservative and they feel that the conservative side of their party has been neglected and this was their sort of howl of protest that if we continue to neglect the conservatives theyre going to go over to the f t and we were going to have to do a deal with them anyway so they are they are saying that the people in berlin are the people in denial matthew interesting really enough back in the 1930 s. Was the 1st of the german states in which a nazi minister was allowed into the local government that comparison has been made frequently since the events that were talking about into regina are comparisons between the current taboo and that event in the thirtys see air and appropriate in this setting or did they. Perhaps create more alarmed than is justified. Well you know john mccain like to say that history doesnt repeat itself but it put it rhymes and ive thought about that quote often you know with these with these comparisons you know the nazis arent in power theyre the fascists is the german media is now are now calling the if the chapter enter into you know this this was you know by several degrees of separation actually that they were supporting that they were somehow collaborating with the conservatives with merkels conservatives to make this guy this state premier so its a little bit different i think than what happened in the 1930 i think its also important to remember here that the the facts on the ground entering a n. And other eastern german states are such that it has become very difficult to form any kind of coalition if you are blocking out the 2 political extremes its important remember that entering the top party the party you placed 1st was the left party which some people see is an extreme left party that was actually the successor to the east european continent is germany a communist party the c. D. s and Miracles Party many of her party most part in the party refused to cooperate with with them as well so theyre ruling out 2 parties that collectively got about 50 percent 50 plus percent of the vote and you know but again this is this is an east german phenomenon if you look at where they have he is in the western german states and northern german states in particular there in the mid Single Digits so i think theres a too much history had what was their percentage i think its 4043 for example whereas i think the link you got 202829. You know said so there is a shift in in the east towards the f. T. Weve seen that over the past several Regional Elections and you know thats the real. This is the problem and i think this is what happened to regular last week is the inevitable result of the fact that a quarter of the population in east germany is voting for a far right party and even doing it in this particular case the a. F. D. In through india is in fact quite rapidly right wing is it not yes so its one of the more radical chapters of the a. S. D. And in particular who we see on the picture is a. Its very controversial and one of the most radical leaders of the posse so thats i think my guess of what that means being radically right wing what can you just quote a few things that he said are his positions i dont remember the exact quotes but he would certainly say things that are absolutely not politically correct and they make light of the nazi regime and thats for many absolutely to boot to even think about working with just imagine hes 180 degree turn in the way it deals with commemorating or recognizing what happened in the holiday as a guilt cult that is disgraceful he called a Holocaust Memorial in berlin a memorial of disgrace and so he has a few say in germany needs to get over itself its. Me stop chastising itself and look forward to a bright tomorrow when his party i like it also says that german nazi period the 12 years not the period was like burchett compared to all the glories of german history and so hes driving it hes driving the radicalization of the party so that of all places it for tough and here shows that you know hes very much in the driving seat but i would say all these did was just sort of stir the pot i mean he would very little effort they have just managed you disrupt the germs like a system theyve lost the leader of the largest parties gong and theyre just sitting back they have got to do nothing since wednesday of last week so for me i would agree matthew just shown how fragile it all was the facade looked great but term politics and the on the late merkel errors been a potemkin village a strong wind on the facades fault and lets find out why matthews Opening Statement said that the f. T. Is merkels legacy. Well i think its her legacy because it didnt really exist in its current form before 2015 in the summer of 2015 a of d. Was polling in the low Single Digits it had it peaked and some might remember that the Party Started as an anti euro party it did very well during the greek crisis by arguing that germany should not be be paying for these bailouts and so forth and it wasnt until the refugee crisis and merkel agreed to leave germanys borders open and accept over a 1000000 refugees that the party really took off so i think there is something to this criticism that she made decisions there against really the will of the base of her party and a. F. D. Immediately took advantage of that they switched their message away from the euro to a more when you could cause sort of classic far right message which and the immigrant anti immigrant which is what the issue that all of the populous in europe have really thrived on and all of a sudden they took off and you know we have been polling between sort of 12 and 15 percent ever since and in east germany which is particularly Fertile Ground for anti immigrant sentiment for various reasons theyve theyve done particularly so eventually to one of the arguments made by the local branch in thuringia of the chances party the christian democrats was that keeping the f. T. At arms length or refusing in any way to deal with them actually makes them stronger than weaker do you think thats right that might be a point to it in the sense that ostracizing a party that gets so many votes here no might might actually boost them and of course the recent episode has certainly given them this i wanted to basically just comment on matthews you know i find that maybe a little bit harsh to say that the if he is michaels legacy just given the fact that in many other European Countries you now have. Right wing potty on the 7 they didnt have michael impala so i think in a way the f. T. Is also part of the general trend in europe i mean even in the United States although in those countries the these far right party have been around for quite some time you know in austria for example the Freedom Party has been around since the 1950 s. In france obviously the phone as you know i mean theres an ebb and flow to these things but in germany this type of party in this kind of you know potent anti immigrant message hadnt really existed before the fight with terrorists so let us come back to the question of what all this means for berlin and to do that id like to take a look at the damage that those shock waves from there in shia have wreaked here in the capital. Comp intended as medical success is resigning as party chief after 14 months in the position it was a surprising move but cram current has long been a controversial figure in her party where shes widely seen as lacking the strength to lead compound i was exit is also a defeat for merkel who took a gamble on a k. K. It seems the era of women in the c. B. You may have passed. Now 3 men are vying for the top party post yet in spawn i mean less debt and free dish maps. The future configuration of the party also depends on these candidates with the party moved to the middle further to the right the challenges are huge debates about the direction of the party power struggles and sinking poll numbers is the c. D. U. Facing a major crisis. Would you answer that question how much damage has this done to the party here in berlin well its just going to ripped away this sort of nice facade that merkel has put on the party she had a centrist Party Everything was fine as long as she was winning elections as you do didnt really think about who are we what is our politics who we have paid into who we neglecting and all of that has just come crushing out into the open with this merkel has an even left in the city doesnt know what it is and theyre in this classic dilemma they say were not alone you know we need a new leader but lets not get obsessed with personality contest lets talk the content i want people like in your in eastern germany to so lets talk about content how far right is still acceptable you know can we pull back in voters people weve lost if they would have it more hard right conservative politics then they say no no thats a taboo were not allowed to the lets go back to the leadership contest so theyre going around and around in circles and they just have forgotten you need to pitch policy to various voter groups and of course the other parts will protest and say thats too extreme but if its back in the 1009000 to 2000 is they had people. In the party who are literally just the attack dogs that send them out to send the right messages hard conservative policies merkel sort of got rid of all of them so she sort of put a lot of proper conditioner into the machine of the cds nicely solved but some people like the towel with a bit of a scratch to it and some conservatives like a bit of politics that will irritate the left a market really has been during the and those people disappointed turned away gone to the f. D. A. And some of the rights of if these that are not lost yet with the right tone the right signal we can bring them back in otherwise were just going off work with the f. T. And we prefer to pull back the voters instead so matthew looking at that report and on the great trump count on about would you say that there really is really the problem here or was she the wrong successor and wrong party leader from the start i think she was clearly the wrong person from the start she was miracles you know protege more or less and i think it became very clear early on in her tenure as party leader that she was out of her depth she made one gaffe after another she didnt seem to really have the authority with the within the Party Leadership that one would expect and the reason for that to be fair is what she pointed to when she resigned which was that it was very difficult to be party leader when somebody else is chancellor especially somebody with this kind of aura and authority that angle americal has and it was quite interesting a couple of days ago to see the reaction to what comcast dollars said about to ring and people basically ignored her her statements even even the german press didnt really give it as much attention as one might have expected where she called for a new election and said that this was unacceptable but then when i go to medical came out during a trip to africa i saw that in the opening gave this this very dramatic statement saying it was unforgivable all of the focus was on her and what miracle had said and that further diminished come convo. Position. Is now still ahead of the party and she has a plan for where things go from here and id like all of us in a fairly limited amount of time to talk a little bit about that plan and what it means for the stability of this country because were talking about it chancellor whos been in power now for for a very very long time so 2 aspects to the plan time table and a reunification of the positions of party leader with chancellor candidate or chancellor so just tell us a little bit then delete about the workability of this plan once she wants to be in charge until the summer and sort of see this transition period and then as you said unify the 2 positions now that form and really waiting in the wings to to replace her one. Useful Health Minister michael sudan that the area i mean the shit in those finalists fadia lesh it kind of like a middle of the road person more along those lines right exactly and on the 4th one would be. Mad. Really yesterday didnt the absolutely. Massive course was beaten by a k k b 4 and quite narrowly that still so he could make a comeback but the old the other side they all strong candidates now people think its not a very workable plan because its too slow and there would be too much uncertainty until the summer and you already see internationally this uncertainty in politics is not very popular and the euro is quite weak at the moment so the markets dont like it is and i wonder whether a quick or needs a solution will Nothing Better at this stage suggest we move on to the next stage and not wait a little more let me just ask you when think is an operative word and what you said was men have thrown their hats into the ring. Many people are saying this good demo whole mood of the c. D. U. Is also. Demagoguing is that its the decline of the role of Women Leaders in the party do you think thats right i think that is something to it thats not a trend that has been in charge for a long time and in some ways it may be natural that its now a mans to an old you know that is i dont think its the end of a powerful women in the c. D. U. Party but secondly that they live a pause now so. What will this phase of reconfiguration mean for the stability of one of europes most important players germany is set to take over the rotating council praeger presidency in the 2nd half of this year is it going to be utterly in disarray yeah i mean it runs if i come to the side of germany is like a car on the blocks and people trying to clean would i cant be fixed or is it like one of those hell you know hellish shares where youve got these roommates and the sea discuss things and nobody wants to cite anything i mean this government the current government took 6 months to put together. Merkel had a crisis in 2018 and she handed over power that was 2 months gone the s. P. D. The grand Coalition Partner out of action for the 2nd half of last year theyve just got new leaders and 10 weeks later and to see to use locking somebody against the electorate for more than half of the 2 years theyve been in power this government has just been navel gazing and really im staggered by their ability to just computer ignore the world even kind of work theyre in denial about how deep the crisis is they really just think they can rearrange the deck chairs i dont think the seaview leadership actually realise this is a structural issue america was covering up for at least half of her her time and power shes been covering this dilemma what is the c. D. U. How many streams how many groupings kind of hold together or will there be a split and i think theyre still in denial about that im a fool this is a moon when germany will take over the e. U. Presidency soon and thats their excess that france is looking to they want strong leadership they want and not an inward looking gemini in pursuit of all this off the brakes its so its just everything at the wrong moment so. Matthew coming back to our title and whether all of this could destroy legacy if we look at the potential successors to her of the 42 of them are quite conservative would they take the party and possibly the country. Back toward something very different from where merkel has taken it i think so and thats my personal expectation is that whoever wins this coming leadership contest will be a more conservative figure and i think that the debate within the party will be well we went with a more moderate we went was contact bar after medical that didnt really worth now its our turn you know the true conservatives to field our own candidate im not convinced that the c. D. U. Talking about stability of germany itself im not convinced that the c. D. U. Will place 1st in the coming election it will be interesting in the coming weeks to see how this affects their poll ratings i suspect that it wont help them the greens are doing very well and coming back to your question about women in politics theres still a chance that the next chance there could be a woman because the coleader of the greens is a woman and might be their candidate for chancers and i think everything is sort of up in the air here at the moment this very very briefly if you would if one of those very conservative candidates were to become the new party leader would handle americal really serve out her terms or i dont think its a new elections i think she would be gone and maybe not new elections right away but i think that she would step down as chancellor before the end of the legislative term which runs until 2021 so a lot hanging in the balance for germany thank you very much to all of you for being with us and thanks to all of you out there for tuning in. Class interests here are informal my. Drivers here need nerves of steel. While passengers here can get an eyeful along the way. Taxis accommodate passengers the over the world. Drive most feel it. Read. The literature invites us to see people in particular. To see how soon as the kids find strength growing up her. Objective is to show. You the books on youtube. In the uk of climate change. Or so. Years do they have their future. Calling for chemicals to the making. Sure. Will be our fighters want to start families to become farmers or engineers every one of them has a plan for your children so nothing is just that the children who have already been the n. I. C. U. And those that will follow are part of a new process. They could be the future. Granting opportunities global news that matters d. W. Need for minds. Have fun in pyongyang. The capital city of north korea is reinventing itself. But only a few can enjoy the benefits of those the bush alone. Kim jong un has introduced an insidious reward system to coerce allegiance to the regime. Those who dont make it into the fun metropolis home from school and tom green. Have fun in pyongyang starts february 28th on d w. This is the news live from berlin cost words from germanys president for the worlds superpower. Frank focused on my accuses the u. S. Russia and china of stoking global mistrust and putting narrow National Interests of the International Cooperation also coming up the u. N. Wants of a humanitarian crisis as the fighting in Northern Syria into