In this turbulence arena but of course its both opposed to the conflict as in syria and to peace efforts so our question is moscow in the middle east who is in the power broker one and only. Thanks very much for joining us on to the point and my guests here in the studio include reggaeton naam who is a freelance journalist from lebanon she says russia wants to be in a position to ease all worsen tensions in the region that will deepen migration flows to europe and continue kyra saying america and its allies also with us is about american support for de w. s Russian Department and he points to a russian saying that goes holy space is never ends. Russia has filled the vacuum created by others. And a very warm welcome to Daniel Gallup editor in chief of the middle east. And argues that in the middle east russia is making very efficient use of its a very limited resources which can be said for countries in the west interesting for good thank you all free for being held like to begin with your akita full blown war between the u. S. And iran appears to have been avoided for the time being but where does that leave us in the middle east and what can you tell us about the role of russia in the region. Well of course i mean if we look at the last few years in the middle east of course we can all agree that russia has gained more weight. Recently especially in places like in syria and recently in libya but i think this is all because the americans have chosen to step back from the region at least militarily and at the moment politically they dont seem to be interested in and very caring any any peace deals or being involved much so when the russians so that void i mean we can go back to this and the course of the conversation to speak of all started what the russians saw an opportunity it can step in and try and v. Embrace the fact that it was once a big power in the world at once a big power and and really still a snow is once again the german magazine cicero described russia or is the central actor in the whole mideast region is that over the top or is the plausible i think it is a little bit over the top but i mean it as i said it is only a big powered at the moment because the americans have chose to be if the americans decide to step back and decide to be involved as they once were then the russians would not stand a chance to stay the big powers the big the big players they out at the moment but want to be russia is resurgent at the moment moscow has a real clout in this region were with them today out how do you explain the return to power and influence from your perspective while russia has a very strong and very long history of military presence in syria and libya from the soviet times Russian Troops and russian lupins were delivered to syria from late if 2 years very base there until the collapse of the soviet union the same for the very russian government soviet government was one of the 1st in the world to recognized. Qaddafi as a huge of state after the putsch and the year after. Troops are present in libya as well so its acquired the historical link but theyre both country and now we have 20 years in the power in russia last year in december so hughes is doing step by step reconstruction of the russian influence not to the soviet level of course but im quite agree with you that the russian trying to use was not limit not not putri sources its have but limit the resources but very very smart very very small indeed i just wonder. At the beginning of the show we have this quote from you holy spaces never empty was not all of it its about if you leave some space its not about geopolitics its a general life. Rise from the old weismanns saying if you leave a space which is very attractive for many parts many many participants someone will jump on that so if america leaves a place where europe least someone didnt jump jump in and try to them in the space and its goals not only for middle east which i dont you know theres a certain fascination for russia even after mitt among the analysts and on the people that are dealing with the middle east professionally. Sometimes the middle east experts jokingly saying that the reason why we are so fascinated with russia is because one of us made it to the top of the country because im talking about of course they used any pinnacle was a very influential in very influential soviet leader and it was a middle east expert and very eloquent arabic speaking but beyond this. There is myth and there is reality of course and the russian role is important but the strategies and tactics that russia applies are not so difficult to decipher and secondly i think it would be easy to follow the example of russian policies in the middle east europe could do that very easily but then it would have to stop caring about human rights it would stop caring about values whatever the russians challenged is well used and it would have to abandon certain of its Foreign Policy principles and thats the dilemma because what russia does basically is stabilizing governments they consider legitimate and. Well no its about values based policy of course not of course none of this is something that is completely i would say anathema to the russian Foreign Policy but its something that they consider hypocritical and a western idea and so they say our Foreign Policy argument goes we are with the state we are with the government regardless of expenses and. Russia is not limited by your limitations or so from intentions are the best of all theres no talks of democracy in russia or very close russia is very pragmatic and their Foreign Policy. Having thats why is that actions were never bothered by all the massacres that happened in syria. And they were facilitated by the russians mainly when when decided in 2015 when he said the russians were never told that are you talking about the russian the russian policymakers the russian the very there is i mean because of the russians you can help me but i mean that russia is no one who is a true bite i am if you look back in the 2nd floor and just now for the same script apply to syria are richer as a player purchase now in the 2nd for your destroy the mother rights and then you destroy the extremist and then you establishes the beauty of it nor regret it in no cost and that the people involved by the way because it was putins war at least with regard to the 2nd decision is not no its not a new script its quite right all for us russia have no limitations no valence but just clearly russia is here to start reflecting what you were saying about the just the fascination that some german commentators have with russian germans by the way not only journalism i want to see one senior german spokesman recently described russia as indispensable so clearly russia we mightnt i dont know i dont know im not sure whos going to break the lines here for the let me put in today but we might not like. Policies but the theyre here to stay i think i think they have putin has and this is probably the strategic i would want to call it genius but the strategic advantage of food in your daily. Lives i dont want to step back for from this dont want to express that too much admiration for this because if you analyze it is actually not so difficult he put himself in if into a position from which he can benefit from all the mistakes that others make in the region and he can somehow he can digest. Something that the others cannot and and by and by these Means Project power and this is a situation of really unique situation and also what is interesting is that weve been probably we will talk about the war of narratives that a boy on is the syria war is it a western conspiracy as Many Russians believe is it just like a terrorist uprising an attempt to destabilize the region or even to to oust russian interests in the region we have a lot of narratives going on my fascination my main rather intrigued i have to say also when i travel to moscow to talk to russian experts about this is that it doesnt really matter there is kind of you know theres a little there that is that they seem to be comfortable with with with these conflicting narratives as long as there is no western narrative that dominates and. I find this very very interesting aspect of Foreign Policy also if is it true that assad used chemical weapons or is it not true is it true that there is a conspiracy against the Syrian Government because the western countries wanted to allegedly establish a gas pipeline from the gulf to the mediterranean which would compete with russian interest no matter there is a lot of theories and a lot of narratives around and my feeling is that russia the russian the official russian state lets say or proponents of the official russian state narrative can very well live with these conflict narratives because it helps them to project their power in the region. Mayo may not be a genius but he has certainly played a county game in filling the vacuum with this slow withdrawal the United States from the middle east as a result russia is now perhaps the key broker in the rich. In turkey syria iran israel saudi arabia in egypt and libya. Strongman around the mideast are building closer ties with Vladimir Putin. And he provides incentives in syria his troops are fighting to defend Bashir Al Assad regime in return russia gets to military bases on syrian territory nato southeastern tip. Countries in the region are buying russian Weapons Systems even nato member turkey. Russian Nuclear Plants are also in demand russia provides them fully operational to egypt for example and promises investments along the suez canal. Offers Diplomatic Services as well mediating for instance between arch enemies iran and saudi arabia and between syria and turkey and between libya and german chancellor angela merkel. Is russia ousting the United States as power broker in the middle east. Just in a moment we were talking about the methods being employed by the russian leadership. Tell us a little bit more about what the strategic goals where does he want to take all this. Well 1st of all as mentioned there establishment russia is a major original power not the words power but the major Regional Power in the middle east back to the old soviet not a golden age of the soviet influence and in the region that we are closing to boost security 1st verity peace theres not talks about democracy or human rights from russian side and what i wanted to mention as well that in the russian Public Opinion syria doesnt play a huge role so there are politics do what they were they want the russian army as well on the ground but there are some public is not as much as concerned of the happenings in syria or leave as it wasnt its now not concerned all they actually pull of it then and not really consider their time to time have messages from russian contractors killed didnt leave it. On the vista level denies the involvement because its a private contractors which are on the ground in libya from private companies. Their time to times news about People Killed or injured in libya and deliver it back for treatment to russia but on the office all the things of the numbers are very low really has to be snowed in and i have no guilt or number because the russians dont deploy like massive troops like the american thats been in the movie miracle where they just send mainly experts and they deploy small number of troops maybe because russia is incapable of sounding like a big number of troops its ministries is lots of very well. And it lacks way behind the American Military when it comes to to financing it so it doesnt really have that much money to be able to fondle its ambition in the region and militarily emerged to mediate between some parties its i mean its bad if its aimed at the moment from it it has managed to has to be said that as managed a bit through the relations with the gulf news was with the gulf countries especially saudi arabia despite all the differences between them and 7. Topics to start was in syria but they managed to agree on the only market to be able to Work Together as the almighty markets and look at this is you just like how theyre dealing with their potential opponents and enemies the the friendship or lets say the very very personal and at the same template technical relationship between the other one and putin is something really fascinating to see like how how those heads of state in the region that are really afraid of russia because they say like the americans are far away but the russians can do us harm and we and we know they can do us harm and so they go to moscow and this is a fast and if you look at the Syrian Opposition the Syrian Opposition has i think rightfully claim that russia is responsible for many casualties many dead in the war in syria actively and directly responsible however the Syrian Opposition has always gone to moscow its always been open to moscow never tried to alienate moscow too much because they were afraid but but also because they thought that its absolutely important to to entertain relationships with moscow the russians have also brought up the negotiations and the attempts to bring in some Political Solutions alongside the military solution. The Constitutional Committee in syria thats being much talked about that is currently meeting or not currently but that that has started rethinking geneva thought it may be fail fail to be 40 even started but this committee was a russian project and the United Nations implemented this because they said that if the russians want this we will do it in order to be able to have the Initiative Im sure doesnt mean that its a successful as it has recently but youre youre right they might have the initiatives but doesnt mean that theyre capable of making them get to places all right but theyre but theyre theyre trying to offer a different scenario ive recently talked to a. Pretty i think influential Foreign Policy expert from russia was that the war in syria was was a successful startup but as every start up can be considered a cynical statement about if you look if you look at what would have the consequences but whoever said it was. It was a successful startup but like every start of you need to have an exit you need to sell it and we havent actually found a way to sell the start of successfully so they are trying theyre trying to keep the political process ongoing also to Gain International legitimacy and at the same time during this time they have blood try to find a military solution but i think the russians are honest about something they know that just conquering every bit of syrian territory with the bashar assad is not enough they need to find a political solution and they havent sounded so soon extend as a vacuum within a vacuum and a lot of people are saying the read the europeans should be doing rule is there are they right to say thats and if yes what should the europeans be getting up to well yes of course the europeans should do more because the you get these are the 1st suffered hours of anything that happens in the middle east and we saw the consequences of the syrian war on europe that it did not did not suffer from from the consequences it was germany particularly that suffered from the over 1000000 refugees from syria thats came here so of course that appears need to do more but if we look at the history of you know europes relation with russia its been really like nonexistent because we were the member in 2008 when russia had her small war with georgia and it was over a few days europeans the response was not like major and then there was also the other russians adventure in ukraine when they took over crimea and the europeans only imposed some small sanctions but russia 5 that it can get away with anything its doing basically and this made her feel empowered to go further and start in syria as well in the 1st kind of country which was harmed by war and sort of was not germany because turkey which got 2 millions of refugees red letter and if you want job done like why dont our jordan and almost 1000000 but there was no much talk and youre about the refugee crisis in jordan lebanon already turkey before 2015 because it was not a smart it was a very moderate not that it was height of public success. Do not lets just talk continue on the theme of the europeans they have tended traditionally to stand aside and leave the dominant role in the middle east in diplomacy at least to the more influential americans take one look at the current conflict in libya and you can see why after all they dont even have a shared strategy. Libyas defacto strongman is cody for have tar the field marshal was long an asset of the cia. And his Libyan National army parts of the country under their control and routed the islamist militias now his troops are poised to take the capital. Internationally recognized as libyas president. But his power is limited to the greater to poli area he receives military support from turkey and libyas former colonial power italy. France and russia back qatar but putin denies sending military support and. If there are russian citizens there they do not represent the interests of the russian state and do not receive money from the russian state. In the coming days the warring factions will attempt to negotiate a cease fire in berlin. Commit squabbling european players and russia agree on a common approach to libya. The crisis in libya. Together calling for us back to libya peace conference in berlin this coming weekend what can we expect for realistically you know well both both have so far failed in their endeavor to solve this conflict and its interesting that our now standing together russia has tried to broker a peace deal between the sections russia has supported the general. Operation took on the other side. Refused to sign this. For the moment there was a cease fire lets say he said he needs to get the backing off his tribal allies in libya before maybe he didnt want to be seen also as as a servant to russian interests and like show that he has a certain degree of independence however the german approached. Was to talk to all the parties involved the United Arab Emirates saudi arabia Turkey Russia egypt algeria. France and italy and others so to make sure that they do bilateral talks with all of these parties before somehow understand their interest and then bring them together to one table and this is happening now i think there is a realistic chance that they could force the warring parties into a cease fire because the government of the internationally recognized government has has no option has to agree with it because its militarily very weak and then on the other hand may. All his supporters if you refuses to sign this cease fire but what were not sure about to what degree his supporters is that cars are honest about about this because it could very well be that they speculate that huffed are would conquer tripoli the capital of libya and then groups just like broker a cease fire according to his own terms and so they have to make sure that his supporters his backers are really honest about wanting a ceasefire and then i think this conference can ultimately be successful. Yeah i mean this is another this is an attempt actually by russia to prove that it can broker a deal it is or it is a big player and it can be seen as a mediator and working together with germany could that be a template for other peace initiatives or peace or influence in the region while the germans or the russians have a good worker relations anyway its a little its a growing relationship that to the noise of the americans mostly but i mean we didnt we have to not forget that this process is also headed by the United Nations and the United Nations have seek the help of the europeans when it failed to get an agreement in the in the Security Council because of the big divisions between the russians and the western allies so yes it could mean this could get to places and if it does then russia would feel more empowered basically as a big player on the international scene. We come back to the same question of Vladimir Putin is he a war monger over a peace maker now thats been the theme of the show im very interested in in the light of these initiatives around libya and possible other old initiatives you know tell tell me about him what his role really means i think the simonton burning move will be a success for russian diplomacy because putin aura is back on the world stage the summit will be huge no no reason why how the result of the conference will be if any results at all but that distracting the Public Opinion in the war from the ukraine from the crimea on the book involved is done ukraine the im not going to mock normandy approach of completely gone youre talking about iran syria and libya and its a war politics and middle east is much more important to small regions and it is to me a grim so in this part of the russian political argument its a success. But whats got me the price we should be we should really be aware of this and i think and its realistic to us also. Put in well ask for a price able ask for for a compensations was that also to support a European Initiative that is going to be set like did he want to talk about sanctions against russia because we always talk about sanctions against libya against syria but lets not forget that what is really harmful and really hurting russian establishment they say about russian leadership are the individual sanctions against Many Russians because of. What happened in ukraine and in crimea and i think if the russians side with the europeans in their peace efforts they will there is the europeans will will have to pay a price for that and i think thats what putin is going to demand and probably has already started to look forward to going through to the weekend and regular just one more question that we said that we would come back to weve got trump the impulsive american president theoretic american president weve got. Vladimir putin the opportunistic russian leader if you so will the genius the dark genius who of these 2 gentlemen is going to whip out. I mean definitely not the Trumps Administration have made it much easier for russia to be involved more in the middle east of course the started before with obama when he broke his that had lines threats and he didnt offend syria but made it much quicker when he decided to pull out his the american soldiers from syria and left the scene for the russians who is going to weigh in with the bends if trump wins and other wins the elections next year again. Is going to stay in power. For to have been. The one thing we do know for sure apparently. We speculate. In the middle east. Very much for joining us on the point today. Showing up. Next week. Want. A are over. 2 worlds that have close economic ties europe and asia. How do they deal with social justice. And what are the working conditions like. Well visit 8 countries on 2 continents to find out how europe and asia Work Together. Our new series of workplace and. Global 3030 minutes on. Rebuilding mosul. Liberated from isis in july 2017 march and the city still mayan ruins. Reconstruction has been slowed by corruption and various conflicts. Many people just want to get on with their lives. Others wish that i else would come back in 75 minutes on doubling. Every 2 seconds a person does forced to flee their home nearly 71000000 people have been forcibly displaced and the consequences come into sastre us in our documentary series. Placed depicts traumatic humanitarian crises around the world you know. What a good thing you know he said i didnt go to university to kill people. Or to have my boss come to me and tell me to kill someone to get my and if i dont theyll kill me. People feel for their lives and their future so they seek refuge abroad but what will become of the person who stay behind and save our capital my husband went to peru because of the crisis that eliminated that if he hadnt gone there we would have died of hunger and anonymous down. The place just this week to. Plague. This is deja vu news live from berlin germanys diplomatic efforts in libya yield a potential breakthrough rebel commander klinghoffer says he will attend the berlin conference this weekend and has committed in principle to a cease fire but he said that before as libya a central transit country for refugees remains locked in conflict also coming up. The scars of the trade war as china registers its we could just economic expansion in decades