Vice president of the center for china and globalization how does he justified chinas catalogue of human rights abuses and the continuing pressure on hong kong. Welcome to congress thank you for having me china has always insisted that it will do anything to avoid chaos shot a large number of its own people in beijing 30 years ago to do that but its failed comprehensively to address the protest in hong kong why maintaining stability has always been a pillar for chinas Development Since the later 1970 years but its failed to do it in hong kong. Different ever since 9097 this part of china and china has practiced a one country 2 systems so in hong kong the primary responsibility of maintaining law and order is resting on the shoulders of the Hong Kong Government and the chief executive carried government thats approved by beijing absolutely hong kong is part of china and one of the one percent range ings business not doing it is not doing it. Well theres it its failed its failed to keep the hated extradition morden was forced to withdraw that it tried threats calling the demonstrators rampant in the range then warning that a blow from the sort of law was waiting for them in the future these threats and the effect well i think china will not understand what it is dealing with because i think there are many different ways to look at whats happening in hong kong i would say the primary situation right now is Law Enforcement you are talking about a restoration of law and order in hong kong and democracy of course when the british left hong kong in 9097 it did not leave behind a lot of democracy to talk about but the british did leave behind deeply entrenched the rule of law traditional i think we all need to be very grateful for that and it is now law and order very much at stake in hong kong we should not be confused with any other grievances and political pursuits in hong kong they are important and they need to be dealt with but law and order is the primary responsibility of the Hong Kong Government right now they think to look at the results of the local elections in november the enormous blow to chinas prestige 22 years after the territory was herded over by britain the prodemocracy camp tripled its vote from 2015 they won 17 out of 18 councils none of which they previously won allow me to make several points 1st of all the district election result speaks for itself however the District Councils in hong kong cannot operate without stability and evaluators prevailed none of the 18 District Councils can really serve the primary purpose they are set up for you are missing the point of my question perhaps intentionally i dont know but the point is that. This was the largest probe aging party which was forced to declare defeat for this major defeat we said we do not want to find any excuses and reasons this was starlee chair of the largest probating party this is a big blow to tell in this best pieces that no my reading is very different home closer to marcus e. And there is universal suffrage in hong kong for the people of hong kong for the District Council elections therefore the fact that the Election Results are such speak loudly for the favor of hong kong has democratic rights people can volta whatever they want to do for that speak for themselves because none of the persons are running for the described District Council had a in the courage to stand out for violence they stood for legal and lawful means of exercising their democratic rights i think that counts so so long as democracy democratic rights are exercised the peacefully and lawfully everyone is a winner no one is a loser what we need to the popes in hong kong is violence you have is the key you ignore the fact that chinas plan has been to chip away at hong kongs freedoms and democracy until they were all meaningless and then beijing reassert full control in the past been the plan hasnt it all wrong again with your respect i disagree why should beijing of the Central Government in hong kong take away any liberties or freedoms in hong kong but they did all they did mr y. Like the kidnapping of 500 cong booksellers is that and to turn up in Mainland China the crackdown on those who led the 2014 process the highly controversial decision to allow mainland Chinese Police to operate in the west kowloon station all this is chipping away at the freedoms of hong kong to beijing imagine that people wouldnt notice this i think we need to really keep. On the big picture that is ever since the 1997 hong kong has managed to keep its relative independence judiciary independence for example political system there has been no change is said if you talk about specific cases we can go into details if you have more time lets deal with universal suffrage because thats been most controversial the refusal of the Hong Kong Government to move towards universal suffrage for the chief executive position as outlined in the basic law even after the Standing Committee of the National Peoples congress in beijing route 2017 could see the start of universal service for this position the date came and went so the promise hasnt happened has it and perhaps beijing never intended for the promise should be fulfilled and i think we need to be clear as to what we are talking about universal suffrage no problem with that you already have universe of average for the District Council election in hong kong as we wish you saying it doesnt matter to them or its meaning because its a very important that you dont have it for the chief executive despite the fact that its promised its in the basic law then again allow me to measure you you are talking about universal suffrage or direct election of the chief exec exactly does the United Kingdom have to reelection for the Prime Minister not all were not were talking about whats in the basically moved from hong kong but were not talking about what things are like in britain or in america or on mars you can play the what about game indefinitely im talking about hong kong what it said was in the in the basic law the ultimate aim is the selection of the chief executive by universal suffrage upon a nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures and that didnt did these questions are everywhere for everyone to see the in is certainly universal suffrage is dollar problem directly led. Action that the protesters are now demanding is a problem because why do you want to give something that neither the United States nor the have had 400 years is what they see that they were promised mr get out right now as you pointed out hong kong residents have freedom of the press freedom of the internet actually dependent courts multiparty elections even with the District Councils this beijing seriously think that by 2047 these people are ever going to willingly give up. And i think the one country 2 system approach comes to an end in 24 plies only up to 2047 now remember when people were still alive and he was the key architect for the one country 2 system he said for the record that if the one country 2 a system will work out for the 1st 50 years why couldnt it be extended for another 50 years so there is an uncertainty as to what will happen in hong kong after 2047 i would say everything will come to their end if for example violence continues in hong kong however if stability Prosperity Development and the improvement of the peoples Living Standards are the normal things all the way leading up to 247 why couldnt the one country 2 systems apply more years ago give me you have to talk to the beijings leadership but if the if if things dont go to beijings liking and im sure theyre not too pleased about the protests then the demands for freedom and the demands for china to live up to its promises in its International Obligations. Do you think people are going to accept life in china crushing level of censorship what the Un High Commission for human rights recently called a context of increasing limitation on fundamental rights in china people in hong kong will ever accept allow me to measure one point you know put in hong kong in the overall magnitude of the scale of china or whatever bad things that have happened in the home of the past 6 months things in china is is is at best can be called a storm in a teacup its not going to change meaningfully anything thats happening in peoples republic of china at all what beijing is are happy about and adamantly is a pollster to is the violence in hong kong lets be honest as straightforward with their no country either britain of the United States will tolerate the level of violence that has engulfed hong kong for the past 6 months no country one or more of those china step in and stop it some of the. Well lets speak philosophical about it if you read the basic law the primary responsibility of maintaining law and order rests with the Hong Kong Government yes only failure approved government yes its a mandated by the basic law my point is though that if china fully takes over control of home in 2047 and think so little of human rights as the un says it does do you really expect the people of hong kong to embrace the kind of life you havent chosen i mean the legal obligations and commitments the multiple laws decrees and policies in particular those concerning National Security and terrorism which the un says deeply erode the foundations for the viable social economic and Political Development of society you think after having the freedoms that they have in hong kong theyre going to accept. Kind of life from china lets be honest about it china is in firm control of the situation in hong kong as far as all india is concerned no one in the world can really 2nd this 2nd guess this point or really take hong kong away from china thats for the record lets do not 2nd guess about that of course on the one country 2 Systems Hong Kong peeps its political system in hong kong the capital is the system but do you think anyone will realistically expect the hong kong can be misused as a stronghold against china no i the. Day i know all the way to 2047 or go unanswered the question i asked which is when the beijing imagines hong kong would set the kind of restrictions that. People on the mainland after 2047 china has folders question to decide what kind of political system will prevail in hong kong much more no one full of hong kong gets in return for being subsumed into children or a chance to be spied on by what Human Rights Watch called one of the worlds most intrusive mass Surveillance Systems whatever happens will happen in hong kong after 2047 their finest records of arbitrary detention torture and violations of right. You really think the people of hong kong are 2nd class i need some about in my life not only looking forward to that i think in todays world that we should be very objective and nonbiased about china lets look at how china is developing lets look at china lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty lets look at how our hong kong has benefited a tremendously over the past 22 years after being part of the one country to system after china we exercised is sovereignty over. This is no make it lets talk about says it was the in an interview earlier in the year you called. Unfortunate censorship in china you said hopefully eventually there will be less censorship leading towards no censorship at all and i hope theyll be a day when people in china can freely watch foreign broadcasters thats pretty full on hope isnt it when you consider that 400000000 extra c. C. T. V. Cameras are going online and the unprecedented degree of intrusion by the state into peoples lives that were seeing things are not moving in the direction you hopeful of the what you call to it was my view earlier this year it is still my view today and i think it will remain in my view for the rest of my life but its a lesson on how business things that are not going this way not lesser maybe good however every society has its own says divisions do says about look at the United States this says a lot of things that the people here in britain do not care about in britain you says other things in israel because as a mother you go youre talking about every other civilized yes just stay with china you admitted this you said the monitoring of social behavior of people in china does exist there are quite a few aspects of that which i personally do not mike is the detention of around a 1000000 with the muslims engine junge one of the aspects that you dont personally like i visited many times of many wheedle friends islamic friends in charge didnt ask you that i deal with them as brothers and sisters i think to really ask responsible questions about we need to know the spread of terrorism and separatism and extremism. Hasnt been a terrorism issue in general for the last 4 years why because you were the government as it was locked up people without rights and without recourse and without any redress and with the ability to challenge their own incarceration you think thats a good way of doing things were talking about the detention and so cool. Training centers which were 1st denied and then finally admitted by beijing last year the un says people were sent there under the guise of counterterrorism and the extremism policies which youve just mentioned and amid extensive limitations on the exercise of funder mental rights. Part of the. Make a point terrorism just do not come out of the vacuum terrorism is the result of a process and the process is very much dominated by indoctrination and extremism for example engine john there is no denying there is an increasing level of radicalization many families actually deny their kids the right to education which in china is considered as an offense or a crime no one in china has any right to deprive their kids mr ground war is i believe one was expressing concerns about increasing practices of arbitrary detention in forced disappearance absence of judicial oversight and we strictures on the right to freedom of expression freedom of thought conscience and religion quite a list isnt quite a list also the right to freedom of assembly and movement within what it calls an increasingly securitized environment this is a catalog of rights to which your government has formally signed up in Binding International treaties and which it is now violating wholesale a number of asking you whether youre proud of all of that 2 points 1st of all the United Nations generally speaking is in line with what china has been doing over the past 4 decades or so its a doesnt align with the treatment as you well know more than 50 countries in the world support what the Chinese Government is doing in dealing with terrorism extremism separatism hardly beacons of human rights many of which are muslim countries lets lets be honest about many of these countries. Islam and many of the inquiry states youre proud that the u. S. Challenge israel mind you say that all in the world no really youre proud that the un had to remind you that you have an obligation to respect and protect individual rights under the universal declaration absolutely human rights are only very important you know why do you think all are you of your International Obligations because youre violating them wholesale noise if you will put it in International Contests the United Nations keeps reminding the United States and many other developed countries of the rights that they failed to give to their people thats honorable t. V. Were not talking were not talking about the u. S. I know you want to evade it. You cannot you have to lay should we go thats we can absolutely talk about what china is doing in isolation but the one of the requests for information submitted to beijing last month by 12 u. N. Human rights rapporteurs was this please provide detailed information on the judicial oversight and control exercised by judges of a persons placed in reactor cation facilities following charges under the Counter Terrorism law let me make a bet with you this request is never going to be answered by beijing. This i hope with my help or with other peoples help you can do an interview in jail i can help you to read some of these you know are saying my question its not because i feel a thing is not going north of this because theres no judicial oversight over the 1000000 or so we get in detention most of the inmates have no the been charged with not convicted of any crime nor being given any chance to challenge their incarceration as i said earlier and thats fair and youre happy with all that no i think youll misquote the situation radicalization is a process at different stages of radicalization you need to come up with strategies to deal radicalize the population including for example what i emphasized for the reg. Thought denying any family is misbehavior of depriving their kids the right to go to School Thanks to leaked documents and despite considerable attempts at secrecy by beijing we now have massive amounts of detail about what these institutions are doing including a leaked manual for officials running and operating these places one of the documents that was released describe detailed controls on each individual the student should have a fixed bed position a fixed queue position a fixed classroom seat and fixed station during skills were strictly forbidden to be change you like this kind of repression you support this kind of oppression. You may call it repression or you may call it educational or Training School or teaching methods if you go to a cadet school for example if youre training for the u. K. Military you need to exercise alcohol as hard as a comparable mr gubb weve also seen beijings instruction to officials in these camps implement a view of the norms and discipline requirements for getting out rocor washing going to the toilet organizing and housekeeping eating studying sleeping closing the door and so forth youre trying to build robots in shin chan know what youre greed about reminds most of people of a Training Camp over training that reminds people of those camps and the amount of people of concentration and what will serve china to concentrate people up to lets say in using only at number 1000000 or 2000000 this is not a concentration camp as far as based on my personal knowledge of my dealings with the wiggles brothers or sisters in john this is not what you are describing are violent far cry from reality. Not not according to the evidence seen by the un and democratic governments around the world these camps lets call them concentration camps they violate all basic rights and freedoms belong to human beings under the universal declaration of human rights which you are supposed to abide by not i would say that china fight this war against terrorism let the british fight your war against spread terrorism and let stalled confused terrorism extremism and the separatism with what you would call human rights only marketers even if one accepted your pretense you have taken away every right that the set you have illegally incarcerated these people without trial and without any chance for them to challenge that incarceration that is illegal no i wouldnt that doesnt. To your International Obligations i would say youre imposing your view of rule of law onto china let china have its on the rule of law this is the rule of law all offenses at is as it see fits we are not talking about britain were not talk here by your United States we are talking about a sovereign government with legal rights to deal with the threats of terrorism and extremism were talking about lies asia thats the key in china no one in china wants to be a victim of terrorism is the guy you allow you know that he allows asia according to the doctors youre looking at people who harbor vague understandings negative attitudes or even feelings of resistance carry out education transformation to ensure that results achieved thats the instruction that beijing gives you look here people who harbor vague understanding is that all theyve ever done wrong and for that you put them in one of these camps and throw away the key so youre wrong and you think thats ok and i think a lot of people including the un and human rights organizations believe that you have forfeited the right country so you are quoting something as if it is from the bible no this is not sacred things this may not be verified already using your standard of journalism i hope youll be realistic its been validated by considerably people than journalists i hope you will really verify this with me its not all journalistic standards youre telling me its not true i dont think weve is true because what china is faced to with is terrorism radicalization and separatism and extremism thats the menace in china which is also faced by many other countries in the world look at the bombing here in lebanon look at the terrorist attack against innocent people you really want to have this kind of terrorist. Disease prevailing in your country or europe we have a common common task to do and you are united against terrorism and thats a challenge not faced by china long thats the challenge faced by mankind as a whole youre a lawyer mr yes youre even a lawyer whose license to practice in new york absolutely do you think out of this kind of behavior by you government is acceptable thats remarkable i think the libbers test is to put an end to terrorism thats the key no why shouldnt. Draw and human rights wholesale thats what you say you want thats a late im struggling with the reality on the ground problem i have no shame about these conditions protect young human rights protecting human rights will always be the most important thing as promoting democracy but on the other hand fighting terrorism and extremism is equally important in china as well as eagle k. Or anywhere else in the world thats the bottom line we need to Work Together to fight against terrorism. But to go thanks for being a. d clinic. Wait a 2nd. We want the whole picture perfect some sort of make idea shift deliver. Some of the reality to cryptocurrency its your top picks for live in an ever changing Digital World lets start with digitisation. W. The special Edition Comes in the topic this time our high cost of living the life of some families its a its insurance you know it it employed in. The nonwhite people you have to. Come in because that money is high cost you know. 30 minutes on d w. In the army of climate change. Because most of. Us im still a. Problem one day years to the end of their future. G. W. Dot com the 2nd largest city in the multimedia. Clicks counter. The big bang that created todays world. 79 a historical turning point in politics business religion. In iran up evil of the islamic revolution. In terms of making its initial flirtation but those are strengths in states of emergency things into chaos cojones of a 2nd time displacement hence the people of friends the old order. Water crisis. Is the start of an era that defines overmatched. 1700. 00 the big move to a small steps december 23rd come to dublin. I am. This is g. W. News live from berlin australia struggles to contain catastrophic bushfires both origins are warning that high winds and scorching temperatures could lead to even more devastation will get the latest from city also coming up work on a natural gas pipeline from russia to germany grinds to a halt after the u. S. President signs off on sanctions look at why washington doesnt want the projects completed. And at least 23 people died