Vice president of the center for china and globalization how does he justify chinas catalogue of human rights abuses and the continuing pressure on hong kong. Picture girl welcome to conduct so thank you for having me china has always insisted that it will do anything to avoid chaos shot on the large number of its own people in beijing 30 years ago to do that but its failed comprehensively to address the protests in hong kong why maintaining stability has always been a pillar for chinas Development Since the late 1970 s. But its failed to do it in hong kong the hong kong has a different ever since 9097 were told this part of china that china has practiced a one country 2 systems so in high. The primary responsibility of maintaining law and order is resting on the shoulders of the whole cot he said our government and the chief executive carried the Hong Kong Government thats approved by beijing absolutely hong kong is part of china and one of the one percent is doing beijings business not doing it is not doing it very well is it its failed its failed to keep the hated extradition law didnt it was forced to withdraw that it tried threats calling the demonstrators rampant in the range them warning that a blow from the sort of law was waiting for them in the future. These threats. Well i think there are china not understand what its dealing with because i think there are many different ways to look at whats happening in hong kong i would say the primary situation right now is Law Enforcement we are talking about a restoration of law and order in hong kong and democracy of course when the british left hong kong in 1997 it did not leave behind a lot of democracy to talk about but the british did leave behind a deeply entrenched the rule of law traditional i think we all need to be very grateful for that and it is now law and order very much at stake in hong kong we should not be confused with been the other grievances and political pursuits in hong kong they are important and they need to be dealt with but law and order is the primary responsibility of the Hong Kong Government right now they think to go and look at the results of the local elections in november the enormous blow to chinas prestige 22 years after the territory was herded over by britain the prodemocracy count tripled its vote from 2015 they won 17 out of 18 councils none of which they previously were allowed me to make several points 1st of all the district election result speaks for itself however the District Councils in hong kong cannot operate without stability and evaluations prevailed none of the 18 District Councils cared release of the primary purpose they are set up for you are missing the point of my question perhaps intentionally i dont know but the point is that this was the largest probating party which was forced to declare defeat for this major defeat we said we do not want to find any excuses and reasons this was star chair of the largest probation party this is a big blow to tell in this best days. No my reading is very different hung closer to marcus e. And there is universal suffrage in hong kong for the people who call for the District Council elections therefore the fact that the Election Results are such speak loudly for the favor of hong kong has democratic rights people can vault whatever they want to do for the results speak for themselves because none of the persons are running for the described District Council had a in the courage to stand out for violence they stood for legal and lawful means of exercising their democratic rights i think that counts so so long as democracy rights are exercised the peacefully and lawfully everyone is a winner no one is a loser what we need to the popes in hong kong is violence you that is the key you ignore the fact that chinas plan has been to chip away at hong kongs freedoms and democracy until they were all meaningless and then beijing reassert full control in that thats been the plan hasnt it will not again with due respect i disagree why should beijing of the Central Government in hong kong. Take away any liberties or freedoms in hong kong with a deal they did mr y. Like the kidnapping of 500 cong booksellers is that and to turn up in Mainland China the crackdown on those who led the 2014 process the highly controversial decision to allow mainland Chinese Police to operate in the west kowloon station all this is chipping away at the freedoms of hong kong to beijing imagine that people wouldnt notice this i think we need to really keep an eye on the big picture that is ever since the 1997 hong kong has managed to keep its relative independence judiciary independence for example political system there has been no change is set or if you talk about specific cases. We can go into details if you have more time lets deal with universal suffrage because thats been most controversial the refusal of the Hong Kong Government to move towards universal suffrage for the chief executive position as outlined in the basic law even after the Standing Committee of the National Peoples congress in beijing route 2017 could see the start of universal service with this position the date came and went so the promise hasnt happened has it and perhaps beijing never intended for the promise should be fulfilled and i think we need to be clear as to what we are talking about universal suffrage no problem with that you already have universal suffrage for the District Council election in hong kong as we wish using it doesnt. It or its meaning well its a very important that you dont have it for the chief executive despite the fact that its promised its in the basic law then again allow me to measure you you are talking about universal suffrage or direct election of the chief exec exactly does the United Kingdom have to reelection for the Prime Minister nor we are not were talking about whats in the basically for hong kong because were not talking about what things are like in britain or in america or on mars you can play the what about game indefinitely im talking about the hong kong what it said was in the basic law the ultimate aim is the selection of the chief executive by universal suffrage upon a nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures and that didnt happen did these questions are everywhere for everyone to see the in a certain universal suffrage is not a problem direct election that the protesters are now demanding is a problem because why do you want to give something that neither the United States nor the dollar can have had 400 years is what they see that they were promised mr gao. Right now as you pointed out hong kong residents have freedom of the press freedom of the internet absolute dependent courts multiparty elections even with the District Councils this beijing seriously think that by 2047 these people are ever going to willingly give up you know i think the one country 2 system a problem comes to an end in 24 plies only up to 2047 now remember when shopping were still alive and he was the key architect for the one country 2 system he said for the record that if the one country 2 system will work out for the 1st 50 years why couldnt it be extended for another 50 years so there is an uncertainty as to what will happen in hong kong after 2047 i would say everything will come to their end if for example violence continues in hong kong however if stability Prosperity Development and the improvement of the peoples Living Standards are the normal things all the way leading up to 247 why couldnt the one country 2 system apply more years of asking me you have to talk to the beijings leadership of this if if things dont go to beijings liking and im sure theyre not too pleased about the protests than the demands for freedom and the demands for china to live up to its promises in its International Obligations. Do you think people are going to accept life in china crushing level of censorship what the Un High Commission for human rights recently called a context of increasing limitation on fundamental rights in china people in hong kong will ever accept allow me to measure one point you know putting hong kong in the overall magnitude or the scale of china or whatever bad things that have happened in the home of the past 6 months things in china is is is at the best can be called a storm in a teacup its not going to change meaningfully anything thats happening in peoples republic of china at all what beijing is are happy about and adamantly is a pollster to is the violence in hong kong lets be honest as straightforward with their no country i the president of the United States will tolerate the level of violence that has engulfed hong kong for the past 6 months no country and one or more of those china step in and stop it and what would the. Well lets be philosophical about it if you read the basic law the primary responsibility of maintaining law and order rests with the Hong Kong Government yes and the failure approved government yes its a mandated by the basic law my point is though that if china fully takes over control of whole kong in 2047 and i think so little of human rights as the un says it does do you really expect the people of hong kong to embrace the kind of life you have and challenge i mean the legal obligations and commitments the multiple laws decrees and policies in particular those concerning National Security and terrorism which the un says deeply erode the foundations for the viable social economic and Political Development of society you think after having the freedoms that they have in hong kong theyre going to accept. Kind of life from china lets be honest about it china is in firm control of the situation in hong kong as far as over india is concerned no one in the world can really 2nd this 2nd guess this point or really take hong kong away from china thats for the record lets do not 2nd guess about that of course on the one country 2 Systems Hong Kong peeps its political system hong kong the capital is the system but do you think anyone will realistically expect the hong kong can be misused as a stronghold against china no i that. Day oh all the way to 2047 go unanswered the question is which is when the beijing imagines hong kong would set the kind of restrictions. On the people in the mainland after 2047 china has full discussion to decide what kind of political system will prevail in hong kong more known one full of hong kong get in return for being subsumed into chile in a chance to be spied on by what Human Rights Watch one of the worlds most intrusive mass Surveillance Systems whatever happens will happen in hong kong after 2047 their owners records of arbitrary detention torture and violations of rights. You really think the people of hong kong a 2nd class i need some of out of my life not only looking forward to that i think in todays world that we should be very objective and nonbiased about china lets look at how china is developing lets look at china lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty lets look at how our hong kong has benefited a tremendously over the past 22 years after being part of the one country to system after china we exercised is sovereignty over hong kong this is the make it lets talk about says it was the guy in an interview earlier in the year you could. It unfortunate censorship in china you said hopefully eventually there will be less censorship leading towards no censorship or taught and i hope theyll be a day when people in china can freely watch foreign broadcasters thats pretty full on hope isnt it when you consider that 400000000 extra c. C. T. V. Cameras ago alive and the unprecedented degree of intrusion by the state into peoples lives that were seeing things are not moving in the direction you have of the what you call to was my view earlier this year it is still my view today and i think it will remain in my view for the rest of my life but its a lesson on hope business things that are not going this way not lesser such a ship may be good however every society has its own says divisions do says all about look at the United States this says a lot of things that the people here in britain do not care about in britain you says other things in israel because as a mother you go youre talking about every other civilized gesture stay with china you admitted this you said the monitoring of social behavior of people in china does exist there are quite a few aspects of that which i personally do not like is the detention of around a 1000000 with their muslims engine junk one of the aspects that you dont personally like i visited many times of many wheedle friends islamic friends in charge didnt ask you that i deal with them as brothers and sisters i think to really ask responsible questions about we need to know all the spread of terrorism and separatism and extremism. Hasnt been a terrorism issue joe for the last 4 years why because you were the governor was it locked up people without rights and without recourse and without any redress and with the ability to challenge their own incarceration you think thats a good way of doing things were talking about the detention and so cool. Training centers which were 1st denied and then finally admitted by beijing last year the un says people were sent there d under the guise of counterterrorism and the extremism policies which youve just mentioned and amid extensive limitations on the exercise of fund the mental rights. Part of the. Make a point terrorism just do not come out of the vacuum terrorism is the result of a process and the process is very much dominated by indoctrination and extremism for example engine john there is no denying there is an increasing level of radicalization many families actually deny their kids the right to education which in china is considered as an offense or a crime no one in china has any right to deprive their kids mr gerlach oldest what is it i believe when i was expressing concerns about increasing practices of arbitrary detention in forced disappearance absence of judicial oversight and restrictions on the right to freedom of expression freedom of thought conscience and religion quite a list isnt quite a list also the right to freedom of assembly and movement within what it calls an increasingly securitized environment this is a catalog of rights to which your government has formally signed up in bungling International Treaties and which it is now violating wholesale a number of asking you whether youre proud of all of that 2 points 1st of all the United Nations generally speaking is in line with what china has been doing over the past 4 decades or so if there isnt a line with the treatment as you well know more than 50 countries in the world support what the japanese government is doing in dealing with terrorism extremism if the inventor separatists who are hardly beacons of human rights many of which are muslim countries lets lets be honest about many of these countries. Islam and many of the entire states youre proud that the u. S. China israel minus they that all in the world no really youre proud that the u. N. Had to remind you that you have an obligation to respect and protect individual rights under the universal declaration absolutely human rights are a very important you know why do you think all you want your International Obligations because youre violating them wholesale noir feel put it in International Countries the United Nations keeps reminding the United States and many other developed countries of the rights that they failed to give to their people thats on a routine were not talking were not talking about the u. S. I know you want to have a did. You cannot go have a lation we can have that we can absolutely talk about what china is doing in isolation is the one of the requests for information submitted to beijing last month by 12 un human rights rapporteur was this please provide detailed information on the judicial oversight and control exercised by judges of a persons placed in riyadh to patient facilities following charges under the Counter Terrorism law let me make a bet with you this request is never going to be answered by beijing is this i hope with my help or with other peoples help you can do an interview joe i can help you to read some of these you know armstrong my question its not because i thought aging is not go answer this because theres no judicial oversight over the 1000000 or so we get is in detention most of the inmates have no the been charged with not convicted of any crime nor being given any chance to challenge their incarceration as i said earlier and thats fair and youre happy with all that no i think you missed called the situation radicalization is a process at different stages of radicalization you need to come up with strategies to deal radicalize the population including for example what i emphasized for the reg. Thought denying any family is misbehavior of depriving their kids the right to go to School Thanks to leaked documents and despite considerable attempts at secrecy by beijing we now have massive amounts of detail about what these institutions are doing including a leaked manual for officials running and operating these places one of the documents that was released describe detailed controls on each individual student should have a fixed bed position a fixed queue position a fixed classroom seat and fixed station during skills were strictly forbidden to be change you like this kind of repression you support this kind of oppression. You may call it repression or you may call it educational or Training School or teaching methods if you go to a cadet school for example if youre training for the u. K. Military you need to exercise alcohol as hard as we are comparable mr gubb weve also seen beijings instruction to officials in these camps implement behavioral norms and discipline requirements for getting up rollcall washing going to the toilet organizing and housekeeping eating studying sleeping closing the door and so forth youre trying to build robots in japan knowing what your breed about reminds most of people of a Training Camp over training that reminds people a lot of contrition camps in the mind of people of concentration and what will serve china to concentrate people up to lets say in using only at number 1000000 or 2000000 this is not a concentration camp as far as based on my personal knowledge of my dealings with the wiggles brothers or sisters in this is not what you are describing are violent but are cries from reality. Not not according to the evidence seen by the un and democratic governments around the world these camps lets call them concentration camps they violate all basic rights and freedoms belong to human beings under the universal declaration of human rights which you are supposed to abide by not i would say that china 5 is war against terrorism let the british fight your war against spread terrorism and let stoled confuse terrorism extremism and the separatism with what you would call human rights and democracy even if one accepted your pretense you have taken away every right that the set you have illegally incarcerated these people without trial and without any chance for them to challenge that incarceration that is illegal now i would hope that doesnt. To your International Obligations i would say youre imposing your view of the rule of law onto china let china have its on the rule of law this is the rule of law all offenses at is as it see fits we are not talking about britain were not talk here by your United States we are talking about a sovereign government with legal rights to deal with the threats of terrorism and extremism were talking about lies asian thats the key in china no one in china wants to be a victim of terrorism is the guy you allow you know that he was a shirt according to the doctors youre looking at people who harbor vague understandings negative attitudes or even feelings of resistance carry out education transformation to ensure that results achieve thats the instruction that beijing gives you look here people who harbor vague understanding thats all theyve ever done wrong and for that you put them in one of these camps and throw away the key so you arent and you think thats ok and i think a lot of people including the u. N. And human rights organizations believe that you have forfeited the right country so you are quoting something as if it is from the bible no this is not sacred things this may not be verified already using your standard of journalism i hope youll be realistic its an validated by considerably people than journalists i hope you will really verify this with me its not journalistic standards are you telling me its not true i dont think this is true because what china is faced to with is terrorism radicalization and separatism and extremism thats the menace in china which is also faced by many other countries in the world look at the bombing here in lebanon look at the terrorist attack against innocent people you really want to have this kind of terrorist. Disease prevailing in your country or europe we have a common common task to do and you are united against terrorism and thats a challenge not fazed by china long thats the challenge faced by man kind as a whole youre a lawyer mr yes youre even the lawyer whos licensed to practice in new york absolutely do you think being out of this kind of behavior by government is acceptable thats remarkable i think the libbers test is to put a end to terrorism thats the key no why shouldnt. Draw and human rights wholesale thats what you say you want thats an 8 arms for darren with the reality on the ground probably have no shame about these conditions protect young human rights protecting human rights will always be the most important thing as promoting democracy but on the other hand fighting terrorism and extremism is equally important in china as well as eagle k. Or anywhere else in the world thats the bottom line we need to Work Together to fight against terrorism. But to go thanks for being. Born. Im not often taught at the gym. Just sometimes out but most end up in which at that point the german thinks deep into the german culture looking at the stereotype quietly or think this is the country that im not playing. Yeah i needed to take this drama they asked me. Its all that. Look im a joker join me to meet the gentleman from t. W. Post. The clue to todays world story to simulate. The turning point in politics business religion. In iraq the up people of the Islamic Revolution under tough. Opens up making its initial flirtation with those. Strong some states of emergency britain sinks into chaos Margaret Thatcher remarks in coverage them to work and they will was at the start of neoliberalism. Trying to circumstances explain pants that she cant print in steel border. Crisis people. The stories in iraq that defines overmatched plane 970 the big clue to todays race starts december 23rd w. But dusty boots muddy tires and drums we deliver urgent lifesaving boxes we give our everything to reach those who need us the most every box feeding their futures. Boxes with our hope of lifesaving food and theres so much more down roads with no names we feel asleep to live relentless in our promise to make every delivery special. Not just next day but every day. Thousands of children are still waiting for their delivery sponsor a box today so together we cherish to live the future is. This is g. W. News live from berlin a song for historic day in the United States says donald trump is set to become the 3rd u. S. President in history to be impeached u. S. Lawmakers are in their final debate before a vote the speaker of the house nancy pelosi calls trump a threat to the United States but Vice President mike pence is defending his bosses saying that the Impeachment Vote is a disgrace well go to washington for the latest also coming up. Is roasting its hot