Transcripts For DW To The Point 20240713

Each other a miracle it seemed to come to pass and the wall on which it appeared so in lootable was pierced the town it was then and now its now so we are 30 years since the fall of the girl in wall what happened to the euphoria. Thanks very much for joining us and with me in the studio today i have got linda fear eka who grew up in the former g. D. R. And was 7 years old when the wall came down today she works as a reporter here d. W. And just completed a documentary about the full of the war and linda says its only now 3 decades after the wall came down that we realize how radical the change was for people in the east also with this anglofrench Catherine Nicholson shes European Affairs editor with the broadcast of friends to. And believes that permanent euphoria is realistic its boring porton to learn lessons from the past. And a warm welcome to the british freelance journalist only patterson who witnessed the fall of the wall 1st round he points out of the 30 years on from before the wall the far right is winning a worry governments who supported the ones communist east. Thank you once again all 3 for being with me today id like to begin with you charlie inevitably because you were there what do you remember most i remember most. Listening or watching television and hearing reports coming in that there was some movement at the crossing points in the body in wall and so we got into a car and drove flat out to a crossing point at the war. And people were walking towards us as we drove along this wide thought and we thought i would this must be just west berliners have come to have a look and now walking back into west berlin as we got closer and closer more and more people started coming through and it was a maelstrom of people by the time we actually managed to walk there and the mood was just incredible it was there were people crying hugging each other. You know when i think about it today it almost makes me cry can we speculated for so long about this happening and people would always ask themselves you know do you think its going to happen in our lifetime and then suddenly my sense is that it came right out of the blue. Or you experienced absolutely nobody who i speak to now says oh it was inevitable that it would happen and it was absolutely a shock and a wonderful shock as well. A wonderful shock catherine you were talked up in bed and i was in that think i was. There my my father had been to germany just a few weeks before i think in september quite close to you know the parts of. The south and hed taken. Tasing shows the watchtowers and soldiers with guns pretty scary when youre in a boat so we knew what the berlin wall was like brother and i and on the night my mum came up as you go just as i just said come downstairs whats this on t. V. This is historic and i dont even really remember her explaining what was going on we just watched and sort of drank its in then you know obviously much harder to get the feeling than if youre actually there like you were but you know if you grew up knowing about knowing about the berlin wall and having had that experience of my dad telling us about it it seemed like you say what this huge scary thing is i put it its god what is this and today you are with friends 24 and i wonder from the french perspective when you look burkas theres those great days and once you know it you dont how much of a of a triumph or liberty was it from the french perspective or was there something scarier going on yeah i think you know in the in the maimane of the berlin wall coming down i think as you say in the program there was euphoria quite generalized around the west part of your referendum show behind the iron curtain as well but there was a say that was fair in france for many people i mean even today there is that ambivalence for a certain part of the population when it comes to the idea of a big strong germany and of course the idea that to germanys like come back together was a worry so all the more important perhaps there was such a peaceful revolution exactly yeah sometimes actually when we talk about the problems of reunification whether we forget some whats actually what a miracle it was that it was peaceful you know this death zone that people was on the allowed to come up say not a shot fired nobody killed on that leisel the following days as people pass through the wall. And of course people were suddenly into the business of working out what was going on and things like perhaps that passed everybody by a little bit but i do think it is worth remembering it was a peaceful revolution of simply must bring linder and linda you were born in 1902 in the city of Brandenburg West of berlin. How happy was your childhood when you look back because after all we do describe we just heard about you know before getting images of eastern germany it was a dictatorship i was growing up in a dictatorship and you know i was really young and so i would say i had a perfectly happy childhood my grandparents lived in the countryside so we went there to you know what kids do we climb on trees and you know we we have our friends and i didnt exist i didnt i never felt like i was in i was living in a cave to ship thats not a word that would have appeared at me being 7 years old but still i mean i remember that night and i remember that from my parents it was kind of like a liberation yeah i mean where and suffering much in the g. D. R. But they still felt unfree and we had family in that in west berlin we had family and western parts of germany so you know of course that was the most happy moment of their lives as well and like for me you know the feeling afterwards that it has so much to do with with me i always you know i shiver when you talk about that night because i always think like oh man i wish i would have been older or so would have gone there and my mother was a teacher big ben and. We will watching it on t. V. And she was saying like ok she kono and i have to work tomorrow. And they didnt go to the syndrome daniel about and also because i dont really think she was working going to extend. Well as weve already seen linda has made a very thought provoking documentary thats being broadcast here on v. W. To mark the fall of the wall its all about 3 generations of one family the family the family over again who the brunt who was a very popular politician in these 2 sadly passed away 18 years ago now lets hear from each of those 3 generations and for blender again. I think the marches and you home School Spirit being well dim we felt like wed been imprisoned for one simo and survived but we tried to keep the wall out of our thoughts 100 and tell the children that inner freedom is what counts of lying i think so you can make anything you want of it and gain from it someone whos given an interest and im caught in my mind the west was different in the lynn wood been near the wall many times by the church of reconciliation and had peeked over the wall it looked more colorful and vibrant your book let him stand watch him when i was 12 i stood in front of the mare and swore i would not settle for saying i would get out of a stoplight does it make you standing up on your mother just imagine this was actually the death strip and one wall was here and another one was there and now we can just walk across we can dance and make music how beautiful it is that were all here and dancing together all of you in the. Whole time. Interesting stuff lenders the the grandfather of the 3 year he says we will wolves didnt we were imprisoned but its the freedom that counts tell us more. I mean hes a he and his wife they actually they lived invent that this is where the wall was you know was built so they really experienced how cruel this this whole. Divide of germany was when they saw it with their own ice but they decided to stay in the east which was you know people didnt do that reeking ahead of ones own brother he went to the west you know so it was really a family that said ok we dont want the regime to when i was over you know so that was i think something that not a lot of people did and they of course they were part of the church so there you know they have been a little word world of freedom where they could also talk about you know their of course they were also you know like. The i watched by the stasi so you know but it was a family that always you know they didnt. They were still heads up you know in the system they still live their life as they wished you interesting and then what about the granddaughter cecilia we also heard from her she says that these days you know people can and do go and actually done some poncey and hang out on the form of death strip how much of how typical is that lightness in that op to miss and for her generation i think its you know this is a burden you know i mean you can see and this is to me every day i mean i dont know i cross every day from west to west berlin to east berlin and its just really normal and for them as well i think theyre really benefiting from a reunited germany and this this generation i mean they feel that there are still differences but also in burleson i think a lot of the things are complete it. Thats sort of youre not going about the Younger Generation benefiting from the from the economic developments of recent years but theyre all you know there are many problems out there in this minute theres great inequality absolutely yes i mean the state of reunification perhaps was necessary in some senses if it was going to be done maybe it does have to be done that quickly but it was quite a brutal process was met with the toy and the privatizations of all these businesses and all those people made on employees was 3000000 within just a couple of years i think and open to 5 percent of people lost their jobs in the in the ninetys that was totally traumatic yeah and when you think about i mean when theyve been periods of mass unemployment in france or in the u. K. Its never been on that scale and thats left scars for such a long time for those generations and so i think it is interesting what you say about the new generations have only named a unified germany i think that they will have a you know theyll be coming at it from a different point of view and some of those scars wont be as present for them bob i think thats very true i mean i know people in their thirtys who they think now germans and they speak only english among themselves because theyve gone together a whole community of young people of their age from croatia from all over europe and they have english as a common language and the book has just gone for them its really is history. Books when we talk about the younger gen will be told of these germans in general when we mention the inequalities that you were just describing how outrageous is it that people are told these germans are told constantly and of over a long period of time know that they are ungrateful and they moan sue you go. Again and i mean if i talk about the young generation and then the differences are not there so much anymore im talking about berlin you know when you need to see it you know i wouldnt say that germany is united fully big because we can see i mean we can see the different. Paychecks we we see differences on you know where people are represented so yes difference is still there and i think hearing for 30 years that you know this isnt that bad to my parents also heard you know you just wait and its everythings going to be why you can see your parents in the ones you know and to say well my father like many others lost his job he was working in the steel factory that was gone afterwards and. It was just you know there was not a lot of jobs you could get into and its also he was same age like me now 36 but he never got back on this feet and this is something it was a it was a brutal change and i think a lot of people around all my friends have different stories to tell so you know and just realizing how brutal and how you know not only losing a job but also the values that are in the system you know that changed everything changed you know people went to the west the soldierly and people were chilling and steeples so you know social network also was gone in a way so i think were just only beginning now to really fully understand it and also kind of like understand the people because really something that you always heard was your cmon its only about its only about money you know its not only about money its about learning a whole new system in a really really short amount of time and i think there was a lot to much for and i think something is interesting that we spoke about before the program. It was about how the people in west germany that life didnt really change you know there was this sense that perhaps they were paying. And all of that but in times of day to day life things went changing in the same way they were for the east germans with this as you say an entirely different system of democracy is capitalism a completely different way of thinking about yourself in the world because the case and i think that it was really with hindsight a complete western takeover the east and west and as still occupy good to have been avoided should have been avoided this takeover as you describe it well i think if you have a situation that you had in 1809 that the majority of east germans were screaming for the mark i think i wanted you read if occasion really badly as a battle 3 weeks earlier there was screaming for democratic social yes but it that its something happening its noble very very quickly people realized i think as soon as they went over and got their socalled greeting money they got to get a 100. 00. Each and they soon realized that that was new get them anywhere so they wanted to reification very very quickly in the zone people consequence of it was that it would be a western take of them because they had the cash to do it or they have the numbers as well as a number of commission differences and i think we looked at it a lot back then market wise which i understand in the context and it was also nobody knew how long we would have to bring you reunify it was an alternative logic that was the problem to the market logic yes here but you know i mean i think i agree with the take over because you know what would have been nice looking back 30 years is looking at what are things that we might could take over from one system to the other to help us all together to bring you know bring our germany forward and i think they never did that i mean there was. You know theres also its about solidarity and i think we lost by looking at it from a market point of view. Well internationally Angela Merkel has been far and away the most visible former east german of hope its a different story though the question is why. From the outside until americas rises the 1st eastern german woman to become chancellor of a reunified germany sounds like a Success Story American Business magazine forbes named her the worlds most powerful woman 7 years in a row. U. S. President obama honored with the president ial medal of freedom americas highest civilian award partly because of her efforts for freedom in east germany. After the unpredictable Donald Trump Took Office many turned to america to be the leader of the free world. But in germany chancellor merkel often encounters hostility bordering on hatred when she appears especially in the east. Colors yellow beaded many reject a refugee policies and chant we are the people. Protesters feel angry and disappointed with the women from the east many of them feel that she doesnt represent their interests america is being worn down by political bickering at home. As chancellor merkel only divided germany. Well its an interesting question but the one i would really like to us linder is why is an american such a red rag to so many people in eastern germany. Difficult question i think one thing as you know she never did like really east german identity never came through really and so you know people dont see her as an east german petition but as a politician you know working for the system as they call it or shes one of the others and shes playing and really well shes really successful within the system but i think. Many of these germans or especially the ones voting for rather populist parties like you know they they dont identify with her and her politics so this is why this is my explanation tony i know youre very interested in the rise of the populist the right in you are. I wonder whether you fight then to find a special eastern german and go on that narrative well i think its very much this feeling that people in the east feel that they left behind because but plays back into this whole thing the west and take over which it was and i think people are beginning to realize that it was that now and a lot of people dont feel represented they feel that theres an elite up there its like bricks in britain theres an elite up there which tells them all what to do and theyre not the elite is not telling them what they want to hear they dont want to be told that theyve got refugees coming to live next door to them and they say who lost this and it it all comes together if you have a right wing Political Party that can pull in all these arguments and vocalize them then youve got Something Like the a. F. P. And thats why its making such such begin with my concerns kathy want you to go to. The marginalize left behind absolutely i think there are parallels in so many parts of the western world for want of better was you know in france the movement i really struck me what you said about young people in cities in germany feel that unifications happened well similarly in paris there is a big Movement Even if thats where a lot of demonstrations happen its people who live in the countryside. Having fewer of your g. P. S. And shops and even you know the bakeries are closing down which is really symbolic an important thing for us you know it means that there is life in these places a little bit like a menu and it was like a king in paris sort of directing without knowing about their life so i feel like here in germany its a different its a ration of quite a similar phenomena of what to do here in germany about the 57 percent are very strong german people people in eastern germany who say they feel like 2nd class citizens i mean its not just another poll that says 57 percent i think peoples lives do need to be paid attention say 0 sense of self is that of pride your sense of purpose its going to matter and sorry to interrupt you but thats the pressing question why im going to merkel not addressed and why is she not establish that dialogue perhaps its easier to address hits into. When youve got a country that 2nd nominally stable and prosperous larry i think perhaps the downed thing full cost as coming in the next controversy is it could be a massive test and i think its the theres a lot of things you can do i mean if there if there is to for instance you can see on the paycheck 30 years off the wall came down we have to equalize equal it but then one thing the people in the west will say thats so unfair because the cost of living in the the red and somewhat heavy doesnt exist you know it doesnt make up for it and i always say you know the narrative were saying is you know you people in the east you do you didnt pay the same amount of money the best in people and its not you i mean somebody decided to draw a lie to you to build a wall but it wasnt the people in the east so you know if you start the story to tell the story from there you know you get. You distance yourself a little bit from the whose fault it is that the people where there are there and i think 30 years of the war why does my mother was a teacher for 43 years why as you have to earn less than a teacher in the us i dont get it you know angry as you get about these things i get really angry now you know im not 53 of the percent of the population are really unsatisfied and you know not all of them vote for the a 50 but you know i think it is a problem if theyre not represented thats from you thats the most precious issue if you dont if youre not and thats figures 1. 7 percent of the east germans are in leading position top positions only only 1. 7 percent of them are east germans so if you are going to show that in fact the over days its in virginia eastern german universities and colleges of Higher Education about how many there are several dozen at least all of the heads of all of these institutions indeed just from the from the from the west that we have say this is something you have to change and there you are you know if you dont feel well i thought if this is a look at look at race in across the board i mean east germany has profited enormously since the fall of the believe in the thing and people are a lot richer and job this is for. Ford completely but i think now we got to the stage where people are beginning to realize really what happened and then looking back properly at history and saying well what really happened to me and what are these peoples concerns but its taken a really long time for that to happen and i think that young generation that you would say ok about is probably a really big part of the k. Part of the solution to this because you know people who do not have that mental will the people who before the fall of the wall talk about you know they theyve grown up with unified germany cyberspace if that generation can feel a desire to stay in east germany to start businesses that to start their families that has been the big brain drain as well population transfer you know if the new generation of east germans can feel east german and feel hopeful about east germany just explain to that i mean there are more people going back to east germany now than there are leaving so thats a tough times but so many have gone already i think theres a small percentage of them thats true but if you look at the numbers and in the last elections yeah it was actually people. Younger than 30 that also voted for a large percentage for the a 50 story risk your own viewers want to watch. Thats so of course your insanity is problematic i mean i think it has a lot to do with like cities and like really areas where theres not much structure theres not much jobs high paying jobs you feel left out i think thats really a big because also in the east we have great cities that are functioning that dont vote for the that much money you know its there its a big part of the problem and its also what i said about representation of you know part of the system you know you know you dont you dont vote for the system and the f. T. Claims to be an Antiestablishment Party and thats where they come in and. Tony would be down with you you know what happens to the euphoria what became of the euphoria well i think if you thought you for years sort of given way to reality and i think that what happened is that people have realized how much theyve actually sort of lost out and that now have to really really stablished their own identities not only in east germany look at countries like poland like your colleagues reported you know people thought oh its the end of history in 1009 everybodys going to be a nice liberal theyre not i mean people are trying to find out who they really are through right movements but that will change things are changing in 100 i think last month obamas party lost in budapest budapest is no longer controlled by open sporty so its moving in the opposite direction the brics it has not been decided. To. Go for it how long is it going to take for east and west to Grow Together its good question isnt there well i think that this issue of euphoria way as they go and it only gets you safe is a constant process isnt historys happening all the time say you know perhaps the end point people full saw in 1909 will never happen that germany is going to get somewhere else linder if you got a one sentence message of optimism yes im pretty optimistic in tears. It will take maybe a little more but. 2 or 3 generations shes very angry but she said it with a lot of areas that were closely for effect for you for joining us here on to the point if youve enjoyed the show as much as i have to go by next winter lunch a spot by. The bottom of. The. Earth home to millions of species its. Worth saving. Google ideas tell stories of creative people and innovative projects around the world ideas that protect the climate boost Green Energy Solutions and reforestation. Using interactive content to inspire. People to take action a little up gives us a clue before tells a lie on t. W. And on line. Closely. Listen carefully. Dont look there soon. To be a good. Action flick discover the. Clinton. Subscribe to documentary on you tube. He wanted to smash the berlin wall before it finally fell. A little zeal to show the new york state you know linda bags are actually better as the female legends of german rock music. Lets find. This amazing mr limit player costs 21. This week on g. W. Play. Play. Play. Play play. Play play. After the fall of the berlin november night. This is the news live from berlin form a brazilian president lula seek natio Lula Da Silva has been released from prison full of was jailed on corruption charges in april last year a Supreme Court judge ordered his release until his appeal has been hood. Germany marks the 30th anniversary of the full of the berlin wall