Phone calls on an almost daily basis and ahead of celebrations on october the 1st to mark the 70th anniversary of the peoples republic on question is the long march chinas path to global supremacist. Sorrow a very warm welcome indeed to the 1st edition of the ws new International Political talk show to the point with me peter craven the focus this week is on chinas expanding global role and my guests chen so on a freelance journalist from china she says Angela Merkels visit to china came as a difficult moment but she accomplished a Mission Impossible also with us is out ill never i must form a china correspondent for germany say on the network and arianna. Believes that china has excellent strategic qualities and capabilities europes answer must be a strategy old unity and under very warm welcome to sonoma basket an american journalist who is currently a fellow at the mike leach institute for china studies here in berlin they arent used quite simply the germany must show woolly dishes on china. Thank you all 3 of you for being here today id like to begin with you chen soon and begin with the latest developments surrounding Joshua Walton how much of a controversy is it being and how well the chinese side likely to react. I think china reacts quite strongly in a way that they know they have to show that its their stance that this is not what they expected that but because especially one it was just thing china and decisis kind of. Almost like a balance of. Criticism from the german media side that mark hasnt been folk have enough about this issue ok well talk about im going to visit to china in just a 2nd but 1st of all joshua one visited d. W. Studios right here in berlin and he made this appeal. We hope people in germany and the chancellor castro a strong stand to support hong kongs democratization how to meet and fundamental call for us is to elect our own government. Thats very clear people from just how far should germany go the German Government go in supporting the pro dont democracy demonstrators in hong kong i think chancellor merkel has made clear in her visit in beijing that she asks for nonviolent response of china and hong kong and for peaceful peaceful solution of the hong kong conflict at the moment that she made it clear at the press conference of beijing thats one side the other side is should she have not a wall here in berlin i think no i think it was a good idea not to meet with him because she. Has met also with members of society in beijing like she also she didnt movies with germanys foreign minister in that clearly angered beijing considered definitely definitely and that was it was it a good idea for the Foreign Ministers to meet with joshua well i think it was not a good idea to have a photo of the meeting and to have it like to have it as a big symbol and the media of think that was a little bit of a too much i think meeting with activists meeting with with those of society with people who are struggling for freedom for democracy is a very good idea its one of the core values also of germany but you might get like public at a party of one of the german biggest newspaper im not sure whether that was a good idea and what new things because you know quote to the top of the show no we dont do calling for more leadership from germany this is Leadership Meeting the foreign minister meeting which im sure a woman is of the right kind of leadership because it can be it will be explosive well the timing of it of course as as you mentioned is a bit awkward merkel had come back only a few days before from china and i think that is probably seen in china as. A form of disrespect that one was was a welcome to hear that. The foreign minister high command went to this party was photographed with him but i think you know medical when she was in beijing gave made very clear that she wanted a peaceful settlement of this conflict i dont see a big problem in the German Foreign minister meeting with joshua why hes here in berlin. What i feel is that theres a bit of an overreaction on the chinese side the Chinese Ambassador summoning the press and condemning this which is quite unusual some of the certain. Sure when he compared the situation in hong kong with the protests here in germany as a peaceful revolution here in germany that led to the fall of the berlin wall what do you make of that comparison and i think its i think also this comparison is a bit of overstretching my opinion that 1st the where you know very defend his talk about it were very you know a different time now he compared this as the new cold war thing right now the whole world is not as bipolar as back then and also i think one thing we always try to make it clear is why chinas so im very at this point and also somehow this metaphor is that what has come as i as what has josh if he actually is just the activist the fighting for democracy or is he actually separate and thats a very distinctive point to that what is even though this is your answer to your own question i think from the point of view of the Chinese Government he definitely wanted to hong kong to be not just democratic but also into pendent and thats a big question so are there is hong kong a frontline city in a global battle between the rich area and systems and democratic systems i think a bit more complicated than that its definitely at the front line at the moment. Yesterday at this press conference and berlin sad about that in the polls have been tibet and now its home to more theyll be taiwan so he he put it in there like for a perspective and i think. There is some truth to that picture but on the other side im not sure whether its like whether it is the symbol for the big new world it is one symbol of many many they are existing at the moment we have to we have to look also out the right war at the moment of the track conflict between china and the yes we have to see what position europe has in between whether to put themselves where to put themselves or whether to have a known position on. That point so i think its more complex than this just to put hong kong at the front line thank you all 3 of those initial comments lets just take a quick look now at the role that human rights played during the chancellors trip to china. Criticism is unwelcome and thats why german correspondents in beijing were not allowed to attend the press conference but chancellor Angela Merkel did answer the question of whether she had mentioned the protest in hong kong during the meeting she said she talked about the rights and freedoms underpinned by the sino british declaration the. Number dont think of even the sniper pointed out that these rights and freedoms have to be guaranteed. The joint declaration is still valid. And it entails a number of Citizens Rights that should and must be respected conan. The Prime Minister read a prepared statement. The Chinese Government safeguards the principle of one country 2 systems. We support the hong kong governments efforts to end the violence on the streets and to return to order the Chinese People have the ability and wisdom to handle their own matters well. Can western politicians wield any influence regarding human rights in china. Who is on something that question chance to go back to your comments at the top of the show will how do you saying this. Mission impossible to china and will tell us exactly what you mean and i think just the timing is a very. In a way very complicated right so what what this main goal of next visit to china i think to one is the address the issue thats whats going on hong kong because she faces a lot of pressure from back home and the other one is for sure truth trump and the bilateral relationship between germany and china specifically focusing on comic development but this 2 topics actually contradict each other because if the shes too loud about the hong kong and then it will make of the common angry and then of course what have consequences in a way they can ship but if she is too quiet she will face tremendous criticism i should come back to germany so i think she funder somehow or other to a good balance between those 2 topics what do you say no about our question of under the mattress to cling to this policy notion of room 100. And ryan there is trees trade will create a better china or a more human rights oriented china or a more liberal china critics on the americans critics say thats a totally outdated strategy with yeah i mean i think broadly she would have been happy with the way this trip went it as as you were saying there was potential for for problems and tension and i think she when she headed back to berlin those the there hadnt been really any tension there hadnt been some big blow up. The protests in hong kong for example but i would say that what was missing from this trip was sort of the european approach weve seen europe taking a much tougher approach with china over the past year. Back in march i think it was french president Emmanuel Michel invited merkel and the European Commission president Jeanclaude Juncker to paris to meet with seeds in paying to sort of send a message europe is united on china we cant be divided and going to beijing at this time after this year of reforms investment screening to protect german and European Companies from chinese chinese acquisitions to go there with a large contingent of german c. E. O. s to put the focus back on business i think some of germanys partners in europe may be questioning you know where whether the priority whether americas priorities are in the right place in the backdrop what youre telling us there is there is what is often described by commentators and pundits as a sea change in relations but with china in the last couple of years china is becoming more globally ambitious china becoming more dangerous pops yeah well i think weve seen this here in germany back in 2016 we had this the acquisition of this german robotics maker kuka and that kind of was a wake up call for a lot of people in germany also in europe we need we need a level Playing Field if if we cant make acquisitions like this in china we need to prevent maybe china from from making such acquisitions here so but but but its not just the these these corporate matters its also the spread of the debt and political influence through belt and road chinas surveillance state which is also being exploited to 3rd countries so there is a great deal of concern in in berlin and and in other european capitals about this. Were going to systemic rivalries what theyre calling of the European Union commission is called about im going to medical school that surely that is rivalry is healthy well rive really is only healthy to a certain point to the point when it can create innovation for example when there is like a proper competition for for example but i think we had them at a point at the moment which can be very dangerous especially to germany to an exporting country because. Germany and europe at the end caf no on sun no problem on so to whats going on between china and the u. S. At the moment if you if we look at the discussion about the Chinese Company huawei and zte and then to eat and all which is like the i. T. Industry of china of china like is there a way of of that industry becoming part of the european 5 g. Networks for example or whats the u. S. Reaction and what is like with all the Companies Supporting like the tiny parts for any of the goods to u. S. Companies than so that big danger i think is that europe and germany will be kind of a might be a victim of a decoupling system of 2 systems so the rivalry at that point will not be healthy a tall it will lead to a very very big problem for for the germany common a commie for the european economies and then also for the World Economy so i think there is a point where we everybody has to go back and say do we do we really want thought and to what extent do we to do we want to to put our positions for wood and not and not withdrawal who is touched on its already according to critics of beijing business with china really takes place on an even Playing Field and thats not the only problem. Chancellor Angela Merkel in china with the whos who of germanys business sector at her side you know 11 deals are signed. In 2018 china was germanys biggest trading partner for the 3rd year running by letter. Trade reached almost 200000000000 euros. But the price of trading with china is high with regard to free Market Access for example despite many promises German Companies complain theyre at a disadvantage in china. With regard to industrial espionage and counterfeiting Foreign Companies that work with china lose millions to piracy. And then theres the social Credit System beijings way of monitoring evaluating and penalize ing citizens and businesses. German companies fear all encompassing surveillance. Is china using to tell us here in methods to conduct trade. Is china creating a. Style system of controlling its own citizens. About the social Credit System for example. I think its very interesting to look at how that discussion whats going on here in germany for example and whats going on with the discussion going on in china now specially if for example about the Credit System and believe it or not many think its actually a good thing because if you look at the crime rates. And then people feel safe im not saying that it come as a cost or im saying its what a lot of chinese. People. Think its 50 is somehow more important than privacy because they also help people look at privacy is a very different you feel look at the privacy issue through the chinese lens they somehow rather sacrifice their privacy in order to get convenience and also safety so i think from that point of view a lot of chinese doesnt even look at it as a Monitoring System so i think its a quite interesting to just try to i think the chinese has its point of view and how easy it is actually for the Chinese Government to build up a system. Well but youre right that different kind of countries have different. Sense of what is acceptable and what isnt acceptable in privacy here in germany theres quite a strict view in china i think if you look at Public Opinion polls people are accepting of this i think maybe one of the worrying things is that this is being exported to 3rd countries in latin america. In africa etc so i think here in europe theres a concern that if if the west doesnt pull together europe along with the United States and set certain standards of data privacy theres a debate in the u. K. Right now about surveillance. For example at kings cross station. In london so this is a debate that that europe United States other western countries have to have what is acceptable and what for them goes too far in talking about control and influence over and over there were going to talk about the rebels and Road Initiative its the biggest Infrastructure Project in the world they say its bringing jobs and Economic Opportunity to very many countries that havent have jobs and Economic Opportunity in the way that we do in europe it has to be a good think well no not necessarily because they also has to be stunned ots what theyre european you know what your money is focusing on the stuff that of course infrastructure investment. Investment is an investment that any at any level should come with a certain standards and such transparency goals and certain standards of how investments and who how investments are done and who is doing this is rich coming from europe with that it was the colonial background of the practices in many Southern Hemisphere countries in the past century that thats true that perspective is true but on the other sought thats also the danger and that danger has been felt already by some all countries who have been like dealing with china and big infrastructure. Projects longer for example because they cant pay the debts at the end because the infrastructure programs and all those in roads and trains cant they dont bring the money they thought they will bring and then these countries with these poor countries on deficit and debt to china and at the end big infrastructure programs constructions will be chinese hands as has as has happened in sri lanka with the harbor so its not only an advantage and i think even those countries who might be also quite disciplined who has a very complicated history with european colonial. History with those they are also now kind of. Courses how and whether to deal with china because they have seen already quite bad examples so the interesting thing about the Road Initiative is that its not anymore brought forward in any talk of has been like a year ago and a year and a half ago when we held the road emissions of any any chinese official was talking this word definitely was even and now its kind of gone for the moment and why is it gone because its not as successful as they thought and we maybe we thought other countries thought it from the very beginning. I think sometimes i honestly i never understood why do they have to come up with such a big concept and a name and for people to talk at times since and whats just sort of i actually because i think this comes to the sort of the chinese tradition they need a big title for they need a sort of almost like a monument to make sure that theres certain credits by a certain leadership theres a great impression the world one of the chinese ordinary chinese you dont know its very difficult to generalize but it is a. Comfortable with the status quo or do they do they yearn for their country to be an expansionist nation i think its always deep down rooted in the sort of the chinese psych psyche in a way thats because the with. What you feel grow up in china then you learned the chinese. History what with some how well the time as a nation suffered through the opium war and whats going on happen in the 2nd world war over and over again for 3 or 4 times that low on us when you come to just study and most of this kind of ingrained ingo bring that they want china to be bigger and stronger and then really sort of. Get rid of the humiliation the chinese have suffered in generations and i think the sentiment is still there and the such a big country thats involved from pyar which is no clear borders they need this sort of a concentrate forcing order to hold this country together and thats always there and still wont be there and probably will be there for a long time you know a big country big big Major Military force is not going to be a Major Military parade to theres this is the biggest presentation of military hardware that china reserve made on what sort of whats the message. What is the message that chinas trying to send out well. I dont know the answer to that i think in ping 70th anniversary is a big deal in china and you know you have this gathering nationalism of the china dream and that shes been paying as he described it and its tell us a little bit about the china dream could possibly impose down special which will continue well i think this is just this idea that china is rising up in it suffered through the centuries of the Industrial Revolution and trying to sort of left behind and this is about a revival of trying that you know returning to its rightful place as as a global leader. I think but this nationalism can get out of control of course and i mean china had traditionally has not been an expansionist country like the United States or britain. So we need to remember that important yeah we need to remember that but of course this us china trade war with some people calling it a new cold war is inflaming these these nationalistic these not only in china but also in the u. S. And thats something that can get out of control if the politicians inflame it too much both in telling us about chinese sensibilities and china is very most adamant to put time the message we are a values based society where a values based economy want all the values that china brings to the global table that a good values that make the world a better place. It was less i didnt really know. It was a rabbit. Well they may not be the same values that. Traditionally associated with western values i mean you know chinas often chris ive criticized for human rights for its human rights record its response is look at all these millions of people that weve taken out of poverty. There are different values right and we talked about the social Credit System in china it may be acceptable for a good portion of the population and in many countries certainly in germany it would be totally unacceptable. So. What is trying to get contribute to Global Governance i think that is a big question and thats thats something that a lot of a lot of other countries are wondering you know what is the chinese model is it a model that can be. Can be translated to on a global scale as as perhaps we saw after world war 2 with the United States and western europe. Which always sort of Marshall Plan to reassure you yeah yeah. I think there are Big Questions about whether this is the china model has has broader appeal. You know in beyond beyond china and so forth and jumping i think for you simply fissions is that to come come has a value or it kind of has the advantage sure what the fishes that chinese im buying on the table say germans are proud of their missions they do so waving force one feels and also for them they get we always have to sit through the stereotype of the hot lead king right sometimes even chill rush and then that might be. A rivalry a so i think that to a 3rd take that is actually good its also good to make for example a big opening thats for lots contradictive germany feel a bit nervous about you have to operate gaming us our tanks time so i think thats also maybe bring some. Technology i think its not about is china striving for global supremacist us old love i think for what from the chinese side they always been bad from anything that you can remember a couple of years ago doubtless a peaceful writes that was especially referring to whats going on with us the asia and if there are thats never neighbor area. We dont support model ok were going to leave it there not also quietly yes although it was a good answer thanks very much for joining us here on the shows are going through the points the new. Ones around bunches. Of them of a. Alexander 100 with our series on tomorrow today we want to see what he saw to experience what drove the journey to latin america following in the footsteps of the great scientist the. Last stop beyond the living soul and the river and tropical forests unique biodiversity. To borrow to do it in 30 minutes on w. Doesnt make i. Aggressive selfcentered it. Doesnt make them friendlier more sociable maybe even smaller. Testosterone and these other means a lot more complex than you would think at 1st assisting. You discovered. And making them a. Natural riches of precious resources. And a rewarding investment. Foreign land has been called ethiopians green gold the country has an abundant supply and leases it to international and her giants. The government is after high export revenues and the corporations high profit margin. But not everyone benefits from the booming business. Expropriation of environmental destruction starvation. The price for government going to corporate. Selling out of. Fear no how you. Start september 18th on t w. This is t w news coming to you live from berlin hong kong prepares for another weekend of prodemocracy demonstrations but there could be harsh consequences for those caught up in clashes with police we meet a young man due to go on trial he faces a daunting jail sentence if found guilty also coming up i know you cant score ok i know how to fix it and im going to lead the fight to get it done. In the u. S. The leading democratic president ial hopeful share the same debate stage for the 1st time clashing