Phone kong on an almost daily basis and ahead of celebrations on october the 1st to mark the 70th anniversary of the peoples republic on question is the long march chinas path to the global supremacist. So a very warm welcome indeed to the 1st edition of the ws new International Political talk show to the point with me peter craven the focus this week is on chinas expanding global role and my guests chen so on a freelance journalist from china she says Angela Merkels visit to china came into a difficult moment but she accomplished a Mission Impossible also with us is our own ever i must form a china correspondent for gemini say on the network and i. Briana believes that china has excellent strategic qualities and capabilities europes answer must be a strategy of unity and a very warm welcome to sonoma basket an american journalist whos trying to be a fellow at the make age an institute for china studies here in berlin beyond whos quite simply the germany russia bullied to shame on. All 3 of you for being here today id like to begin with you chen soon and begin with the latest developments surrounding joshua wolf and how much of a controversy is it being and how well the chinese side likely to react. I think china react quite strongly in a way that they know they have to show that its their stance that this is not what they expected that what because especially one was just thing china and decisis kind of. Almost like a balance of criticism from that german media side that market hasnt been spoken enough about this issue ok well talk regular michaels visit to china in just a 2nd but 1st of all joshua one visited d. W. Studios right here in berlin and he made this appeal. We hope people in germany and the chancellor castro a strong stand to support holocaust democratization to ultimate and fundamental call for us is to elect our own government. Already on us very clear people from joshua will know how far should germany go the German Government go in supporting their production democracy demonstrators in hong kong i think chancellor merkel has made clear in her visit in beijing that she asks for nonviolent response of china and hong kong and for peaceful peaceful solution of the hong kong conflict at the moment that she made it clear at the press conference of beijing thats one side the other side is should she have met a wall here in berlin i think no i think it was a good idea not to meet with him because she. Has met also with members of society in beijing like she also she didnt and maybe its with germanys foreign minister that clearly angered beijing considered definitely definitely and that was it was it a good idea for the Foreign Ministers to meet with josh in a while i think it was not a good idea to have a photo of the meeting and to have it like to have it as a big symbol and the media of think that was a little bit of a too much i think meeting with activists meeting with with those of society with people who are struggling for freedom for democracy is a very good idea its one of the core values also of germany but to make it like public at a party of one of the german biggest newspaper im not sure whether that was a good idea and we will know of things because in your quotes even some of the show no we dont do you calling for more leadership from germany this is Leadership Meeting this is the foreign minister meeting which im sure along is of the right kind of leadership because it can be it will be explosive well the timing of it of course as as you mentioned is a bit awkward americal i had come back only a few days before from china and i think that is probably seen in china as a form of disrespect that one was was a welcome to hear that. The firm mr high command went to this party was photographed with him but i think you know medical when she was in beijing gave made very clear that she wanted a peaceful settlement of this conflict i dont see a big problem in the German Foreign minister meeting with joshua wang hes here in berlin. What i feel is that theres a bit of an overreaction on the chinese side to the Chinese Ambassador summoning the press and condemning this which is quite unusual one of the surgeons im sure and sure when he compared the situation in hong kong with the protests here in germany as a peaceful revolution here in germany that led to the fall of the berlin wall what do you make of that comparison i think its i think also this comparison is a bit of all of a stretch in my opinion that 1st the where you know very different his target of it was very you know a different time now he compared this as the new cold war i think right now the whole world is not as bipolar as back then and also i think one thing we always try to make it clear is why time is so im great at this point and also somehow way this metaphor is that what is his eyes what is josh is he actually is just the activist the fighting for democracy or is he actually separate and thats a very distinctive point to that what is in a nutshell what is your answer to your own question i think from the point of view of the Chinese Government he definitely wanted the hong kong to be not just democratic but also into pendent and thats a big question so are there is hong kong a front line since you are in a global battle between the rich area and systems and democratic systems i think a bit more complicated than that its definitely at the front line at the moment. Yesterday at this press conference and berlin sat that that in the polls have been tibet and now its home to more theyll be taiwan so he he put it in there like a 4 up specked and i think. There is some truth to that picture but on the other side im not sure whether its like the weather it is the symbol for the big new world it is one symbol of many many they are existing at the moment and we have to we have to look also out thats right war at the moment of the track conflict between china and the yes we have to see what position europe has in between whether to put themselves where to put themselves or whether to have a known position on. That point so i think its more complex than this just to put hong kong at the front line thank you all 3 of those initial comments lets just take a quick look now at the role that human rights played during the chancellors trip to china. Criticism is unwelcome thats why german correspondents in beijing were not allowed to attend the press conference but chancellor Angela Merkel did answer the question of whether she had mentioned the protest in hong kong during the meeting she said she talked about the rights and freedoms underpinned by the sino british declaration of the. Covered all of the movies in the us and i pointed out that these rights and freedoms have to be guaranteed. The joint declaration is still valid. And it entails a number of Citizens Rights that should and must be respected kannan. The Prime Minister read a prepared statement. The Chinese Government safeguards the principle of one country 2 systems we support the hong kong governments efforts to end the violence on the streets and to return to order which the Chinese People have the ability and wisdom to handle their own matters well. Can western politicians wield any influence regarding human rights in china. Or in that question perhaps this chance to go back to your comments at the top of the show will have to saying this i went on a Mission Impossible to china and will tell us exactly what you mean and i think just the timing is a very. You know with very complicated right so what whats this main goal of the next visit to china i think to one of the dress that issue thats whats going on hong kong because she faces a lot of pressure from back home and the other one is for sure 2 of strength in the bilateral relationship between germany and china specifically focusing on cannot make development but this 2 topics actually contradict each other because they feel that shes too loud about the hong kong and that it will make of the government angry and then of course would have consequences in a way if they can i mean with a ship but if she is too quiet she will face tremendous criticism i should come back to germany so i think she funder somehow relative a good balance between those 2 topics what do you say you know about our course you know my theory still clings to this policy notion of the 100 suits of. German rhyme that is truly trade will create a better china or a more human rights oriented china or a more liberal china critics are going to michaels critics say thats a totally outdated strategy would was youll say yeah i mean i think broadly she would have been happy with the way this trip went as as you were saying there was potential for for problems and tension and i think she was he headed back to berlin those the there had been really any tension they had and some big blow up. The protests in hong kong for example but i would say that what was missing from this trip was sort of the european approach weve seen europe taking a much tougher approach with china over the past year. Back in march i think it was french president Emmanuel Mccall invited merkel and the European Commission president jim crow juncker to paris to meet with season paying sort of send a message europe is united on china we cant be divided and going to beijing at this time after this year of reforms investment screening to protect german and European Companies from chinese chinese acquisitions to go there with a large contingent of german c. E. O. s to put the focus back on business i think some of germanys partners in europe may be questioning you know where whether the priority whether metals priorities are in the right place and the backdrop to what youre telling us there is there is what is often described by common sadism pundits as a sea change in relations but with china in the last couple of years china is becoming more globally ambitious china becoming more dangerous pops yeah well i think weve seen this here in germany back in 2016 we had this the acquisition of this german robotics maker kuka and that kind of was a wake up call for a lot of people in germany also in europe we need we need a level Playing Field if we cant make acquisitions like this in china we need to prevent maybe china from from making such acquisitions here so but but but its not just these these corporate matters its also the spread of the debt and political influence through belt and road chinas surveillance state which is also being exploited to 3rd countries so there is a great deal of concern in in berlin and and in other european capitals about this are in a systemic rivalry is what i call it the European Union commission is cold about im going to medical school to that surely that is wrong have already healthy. Well rivalry is only healthy to a certain point. To the point when it can create innovation for example when there is like a proper competition for example but i think we had them at a point at the moment which can be very dangerous especially to germany to an exporting country because. Germany and europe at the end. Of 2 whats going on between china and the u. S. At the moment if you if we look at the discussion about the Chinese Company huawei and zte and sente eat and all which is like the i. T. Industry of china china like is there a way of of that industry becoming part of the european 5 g. Networks for example and whats the u. S. Reaction and what is like with all the Companies Supporting like tiny parts for any of the goods to u. S. Companies than so the big danger i think is that europe and germany will be kind of might be a victim of a decoupling system of 2 systems so the rivalry at that point will not be healthy a tall it will lead to a very very big problem for for the germany common economy for the european economies and then also for the World Economy so i think there is a point where we everybody has to go back and say do we really want thought and to what extent do we to do we want to put our positions forward and not and not withdraw. Its already according to critics of beijing business with china really takes place on an even Playing Field and thats not the only problem. There chancellor Angela Merkel in china with the whos who of germanys business sector at her side you know 11 deals are signed. In 2018 china was germanys biggest trading partner for the 3rd year running bilateral trade reached almost 200000000000. 00 euros. But the price of trading with china is high with regard to free Market Access for example despite many promises. German companies complain theyre at a disadvantage in china. With regard to industrial espionage and counterfeiting Foreign Companies that work with china lose millions to piracy. And then theres the social Credit System beijings way of monitoring evaluating and analyzing citizens and businesses. German companies fear all encompassing surveillance. Is china using to tell us here in methods to conduct trade. China creating a. Style system of controlling its own citizens. About the social credit me for example i think its very interesting to look at how that discussion whats going on here in germany for example and whats going on whats the discussion going on in china especially if for example about the Credit System and believe it or not many think its actually a good thing because it used to look at the crime rates at such a low and then people feel safe im not saying that it come as a cost or im saying its what a lot of. Concern to many people in general i think its 50 is somehow more important than privacy because also help people look at privacy is a very different if you look at the privacy issues through the chinese lens they somehow rather sacrifice their privacy in order to get convenience and also safety so i think from that point of view a lot of chinese doesnt even look at it as a Monitoring System so i think its a quite interesting to just try to i think the chinese citizens point of view and how easy it is actually for the Chinese Government to build up a system. Well youre right that Different Countries have different. Sense of what is acceptable and what isnt acceptable. Oversee here in germany theres quite a strict view in china i think if you look at Public Opinion polls people are accepting of this i think maybe one of the the worrying things is that this is being exported to 3rd countries in latin america. Africa etc so i think here in europe theres a concern that if if the west doesnt pull together europe along with the United States and set certain standards of data privacy theres a debate in the u. K. Right now about surveillance. For example at kings cross station. In london so this is a debate that the that europe the United States other western countries have to have what is acceptable and what for them goes too far in talking about control and influence of iran over there were going to talk about the rebels and Road Initiative its the biggest Infrastructure Project in the world they say its bringing jobs and Economic Opportunity to very many countries that have them have jobs and Economic Opportunity in the way that we do in europe it has to be a good think almost not necessarily because they also has to be stunned dogs and what the European Union and what your money is focusing on the stuff that of course Infrastructure Investment and investment is an investment that any at any level should come with certain standards and such as transparency laws and certain standards of how investments and who how investments are done and who is doing this is a bridge coming from europe with that it was the colonial background of the practices in many Southern Hemisphere countries in the past century that thats true that perspective is true but on the other side this also the danger and the danger has been felt already by some all countries who have been like dealing with china and big Infrastructure Projects as for longer for example because they cant pay the debts at the end because the infrastructure programs and all those in roads and in trains they build. Ring the money they thought they will bring and then these countries with these poor countries on debt at a debt to china and at the end big infrastructure programs constructions will be chinese hands as has as has happened. So its not only an advantage and i think even those countries who might be also quite disciplined who has a very complicated history with european colonial. History with those they also know kind of. Courses how and whether to deal with china because they have seen already quite bad examples so the interesting thing about the Red Initiative is that its not anymore brought forward in any talk it has been like a year ago and a year and a half ago when we held the Road Initiative of any any chinese official was talking this word definitely was even now its kind of gone for the moment and why is it gone because its not as successful as they thought and we maybe we thought other countries thought of from the very beginning. I think sometimes i honestly i never understood why do they have to come up with such a big concept and a name and then for people to target times or whats dicer i actually because i think this comes to the sort of the chinese tradition they need a big title for they need a sort of almost like a monument to make sure that theres certain credits being done by a certain leadership cares or praising an impression the world one of the chinese ordinary chinese you dont know its very difficult to generalize but it is a very comfortable with the status quo or do they do they yearn for their country to be an expansionist nation i think its always deep rooted in the sort of the chinese psych psyche in a way that because the weve been told what you feel dropping china then you learned the chinese history of what with somehow the 10 as a nation suffered through the opium war and whats going on happen in the 2nd world war over and over again for the. 4 times that last one yes what you accomplish just that and that for this kind of a thing grading over bring that they want to turn out to be bigger and stronger and that really sort of. Get rid of the humiliation that the chinese have suffered in generations and i think that sentiment is still there and if thats a big country thats involved from which is no clear borders they need this sort of a concentrate forcing out of whole of this country together and thats always there and the still wont be that and probably wont be there for a long time you know a big country big only big Major Military force is not going to be a Major Military parade or those are the biggest presentation of military hardware that china has ever made on october the 1st whats the message. What is the message that chinas tribes and well. I dont know the answer to that i think shes in things 70th anniversary is a big deal in china and. You know you have this gathering nationalism of the china dream and that shes been paying as he describes it and this tell us a little bit about the china dream got some very important aspects always open to doing well i think this is just this idea that china is rising up it it suffered through centuries of the Industrial Revolution and trying to sort of left behind and this is about a revival of trying to. You know returning to its rightful place as as a global leader. I think but this nationalism can get out of control of course and i mean china had traditionally has not been an expansionist country like the United States or britain. So we need to remember that important yeah we need to remember that but of course this us china trade war some people calling it a new cold war is. Inflaming these these and nationalistic views not only in china but also in the us and thats something that can get out of control if the politicians inflame it too much youve both been telling us about chinese sensibilities and china is very most adamant to bottom of the message we are a values based society were a values based economy want all the values that china brings to the global table that good values that make the world a better place. But lets not did it when i opened. It was a private. Well they may not be the same values that are. Traditionally associated with western values i mean you know china is often criticized for criticize for human rights for its human rights record its response is look at all these millions of people that weve taken out of poverty. That there are different values right and we talked about the social Credit System in china it may be acceptable for a good portion of the population and in many countries certainly in germany it would be totally unacceptable. So. What is trying to get contribute to Global Governance i think that is a big question and thats thats something that a lot of a lot of other countries are wondering you know what is the chinese model is it a model that can be. Can be translated to on a global scale as as perhaps we saw after world war 2 with the United States and western europe. Which always sort of Marshall Plan generation yeah yeah. I think there are Big Questions about whether this is the china model has has broader appeal. You know in beyond beyond china and so forth and jumping i think for example the fish and see if that come come has a value cut it has the advantage sure what the fishes that chinese im going on the table mr jevons are proud of their patients who say waiting for someone feels and that also for them they get we always have that stereotype the chinese the cane rice sometimes even chill much and then that might be and you also mention a rivalry a certain extent to a certain extent is actually good its also good to make for example a big Old Industrial as contradictive germany feel a bit nervous about you have to upgrade your gaming us our tanks to so i think of thats also maybe bring some key. Specially in terms of technology i think its not a bad thing is china striving for global supremacist yes although i think for one from the chinese side they always say that from a thinker you remember a couple of years ago there was they tend as a peaceful rights that was specially referring to whats going on with us to asia and if their. Neighbor neighbor area right knowledge say we dont export models out there were going to leave it there and that was required for us all over that was a good answer thanks very much for joining us here on the show today to the points the new. Show on doors. Come back around bunch of us. As. Much. Of a. Few. Minutes. The for. The World Economic forum 2019 going to africa from capetown this data africas new oil. Data is below its probably be offshoots read the book and are sort of versions of the african government tough to make sure that each country can be using the details to hold down problems d. W. Presents a High Profile Panel Discussion hosted by david came on. In 15 minutes on d w. So youll want to save on the rent soon why not move here to barcelona just 200. 00 euros a month. So whats the catch. Good zone lead 3 square meters. Deep insight into europes housing crisis. In 90 minutes on d w. O. Im not laughing at them well i guess sometimes i am but i stand up and women havent needed to have been thanks even to the german culture of looking at the stereotypes the question that is included in the country that i now know im playing the piano needed to be taken as grandma day out to me its all about hey look im a joke join me from the gym sunday w. Post. Natural riches. Precious resources. And a rewarding investment. Farmland ministry called easy options gringo and. Country has an abundant supply of leases it to International Law from china to the government is after hire next month and here are some of the corporations high profit margin. But not everyone benefits from the booming business players creation played fundamental destruction of starvation player selling out of the country dead donkey. Starts to turn retains on d. W. You. Claim. This is deja vu news live from berlin the World Health Organization sounds the alarm over declining vaccination rates officials meeting at a global vaccination summit say the growing antivaccination it is putting childrens lives at risk for me one family devastated by a muse also outbreak also coming up after the storm a homicide are reeling from Hurricane Dorian devastated communities from the lying on aid shipments of those shipments still havent reached some isolated air