Transcripts For DW To The Point 20240714

Phone calls on an almost daily basis and ahead of celebrations on october the 1st to mark the 70th anniversary of the peoples republic on question is the long march chinas path to global supremacist. So a very warm welcome indeed to the 1st edition of the ws new International Political talk show to the point with me peter craven the focus this week is on chinas expanding global role and my guests chen so on a freelance journalist from china she says angle americas visit to china came into a difficult moment but she accomplished a Mission Impossible also with us is our own ever i must form a china correspondent for germany say on dean at work and on. Ana believes that china has excellent strategic qualities and capabilities europes answer must be a strategy of unity and a very warm welcome to sonoma barket an american journalist whos trying to be a fellow at the make age an institute for china studies here in berlin he argues quite simply the germany must show woolley to shit on china. Thank you all 3 being here today id like to begin with you chen soon and begin with the latest developments surrounding joshua wall how much of a controversy has it been and how the chinese side likely to react. I think china react quite strongly in a way that they know they have to show that its their stance that this is not what they expected that what because especially one was just thing china and decisis kind of. Almost like a balance of. Criticism from the german media side that america hasnt been spoken enough about this issue ok well talk about our visit to china in just a 2nd but 1st of all just do one visit d. W. Studios right here in berlin and he made this appeal we hope people in germany and the chancellor castro a strong stand for support hong kongs democratization to automate and fundamental call for us is to elect our own government. Ariano thats very clear people from just go will now how far should germany go the German Government go in supporting the production democracy demonstrators in hong kong i think chancellor merkel has made clear in her visit in beijing that she asks for nonviolent response of china and hong kong and for peaceful peaceful solution of the hong kong conflict at the moment that she made it clear at the press conference of beijing thats one side the other side is should she have met a wall here in berlin i think no i think it was a good idea not to meet with him because she. Has met also with members of society in beijing like she also she didnt win maybe its with germanys foreign minister and that clearly angered beijing considered definitely definitely and that was it was it a good idea for the Foreign Ministers to meet with joshua while i think it was not a good idea to have a photo of the meeting and to have it like to have it as a big symbol and in the media that was a little bit of a too much i think meeting with activists meeting with with those of society with people who are struggling for freedom for democracy is a very good idea its one of the core values also of germany but you might get like public at a party of one of the german biggest newspaper im not sure whether that was a good idea and we will know things because you know quote to consult with us no no we dont do you calling for more leadership from germany this is Leadership Meeting the foreign minister meeting which im sure a woman is of the right kind of leadership because it can be it will be explosive or the timing of it of course as you mentioned is a bit awkward americal had come back only a few days before from china and i think that is probably seen in china as a form of disrespect that one was was welcome to hear that the firm mr hi cmon went to this party was photographed with him but i think you know medical when she was in beijing gave made very clear that she wanted a peaceful. And of this conflict i dont see a big problem in the German Foreign minister meeting with joshua why hes here in berlin. What i feel is that theres a bit of an overreaction on the chinese side to the Chinese Ambassador summoning the press and condemning this which is quite unusual one of the surgeons im sure and sure when he compared the situation in hong kong with the protests here in germany as a peaceful revolution here in germany that led to the fall of the berlin wall what do you make of that comparison and i think its i think also this comparison is a bit of overstretch in my opinion that 1st the wearing a very different his talk about it was very different time now he compared this as the new cold war i thing right now the whole world is not as bipolar as back then and also i think one thing we always try to make it clear is why chinas so im very at this point and also somehow with this metaphor is that what is Chinese Governments eyes what is josh is he actually just the activist the fighting for democracy or is he actually separate and thats a very distinctive point to that what is in a nutshell what is your answer to your own question i think from the point of view of the Chinese Government he definitely wanted to hong kong to be not just democratic but also into pendent and thats a big question so is hong kong a frontline city in a global battle between the rich area and systems and democratic systems i think a bit more complicated than that its definitely at the front line at the moment and. Yesterday at this press conference in berlin sat that that in the past have been tibet and now its hong kong more theyll be taiwan so he he put in a like a more for a perspective and i think there is some truth into that picture but on the other saw it im not sure whether its like whether it is the symbol for the big new world it is one symbol of many many there are existing at the moment. We have to we have to look also outright war at the moment of the track conflict between china and the yes we have to see what position europe has in between whether to put themselves where to put themselves or whether to have a known position on. That point so i think its more complex than this just to put hong kong at the front line thank you all 3 of those initial comments lets just take a quick look now at the role that human rights played during the chancellors trip to china. Criticism is unwelcome thats why german correspondents in beijing were not allowed to attend the press conference but chancellor Angela Merkel did answer the question of whether she had mentioned the protest in hong kong during the meeting she said she talked about the rights and freedoms underpinned by the sino british declaration of the. Dont think of these in the us and i pointed out that these rights and freedoms have to be guaranteed. The joint declaration is still valid. And it entails a number of Citizens Rights that should and must be respected conan. The Prime Minister read a prepared statement. The Chinese Government safeguards the principle of one country 2 systems. We support the hong kong governments efforts to end the violence on the streets and to return to order the Chinese People have the ability and wisdom to handle their own matters well. Can western politicians wield any influence regarding human rights in china. Who question his chance to go back to your comments at the top of the show will how do you saying this. Mission impossible to china. Will tell us exactly what you mean. I think just the timing is a very you know with very complicated so what whats this main goal of the visit to china i think 21 is the issue thats whats going on because she faces a lot of pressure from. Back home and the other one is for sure truth strengthen the bilateral relationship between germany and china specifically focusing i cannot make development but this 2 topics actually contradict each other because if the she is too loud about the hong kong and then it will make of the government angry and then of course would have consequences in a way if they cannot be where they ship but if she is too quiet she will face tremendous criticism i should come back to germany so i think she funder somehow relative a good balance between the 2 topics what do you say you know about our question of on demand for still clings to this policy notion of the 100. And rhyme that is treated trade will create a better china or a more human rights oriented china or a more liberal china critics are going to have those critics say thats a totally outdated strong suit you would like yeah i mean i think broadly she would have been happy with the way this trip went it as as you were saying there was potential for for problems and tension and i think she when she headed back to berlin those the there hadnt been really any tension there hadnt been some big blow up. The protests in hong kong for example but i would say that what was missing from this trip was sort of the european approach weve seen europe taking a much tougher approach with china over the past year. Back in march i think it was french president Emmanuel Michel invited merkel and the European Commission president roh juncker to paris to meet with seeds in paying to sort of send a message europe is united on trying and we cant be divided and going to beijing at this time after this year of reforms investment screening to protect german and European Companies from chinese chinese acquisitions to go there with a large contingent of german c. E. O. s to put the focus back on business i think some of germanys partners in europe may be questioning you know where whether the priority whether miracles priorities are in the right place in the backdrop so what youre telling us there is there is what is often described by commentators and pundits as a sea change in relations but with china in the last couple of years china becoming more globally ambitious china becoming more dangerous pops yeah well i think weve seen this here in germany back in 2016 we had this the acquisition of this german robotics maker kuka and that kind of was a wake up call for a lot of people in germany also in europe we need we need a level Playing Field if we cant make acquisitions like this in china we need to prevent maybe china from from making such acquisitions here so but but but its not just the these these corporate matters its also the spread of the debt and political influence through belt and road chinas surveillance state which is also being exploited to 3rd countries so there is a great deal of concern in in berlin and and in other european capitals about this on a systemic rivalries what i call it the European Union commission has called it out im going to medical school to that surely that is wrong have already healthy. Well rive really only healthy to a certain point. To the point when it can create innovation for example when there is like a proper competition for for example but i think were at the point at the moment which can be very dangerous especially to germany to an exporting country because. Germany and europe at the end. To whats going on between china and the u. S. At the moment if you if we look at the discussion about the Chinese Company huawei and zte and sente eat and all which is like the i. T. Industry of china of china like is there a way of of that industry becoming part of the european 5 g. Networks for example or whats the u. S. Reaction and what is like with all the Companies Supporting like tiny parts for any of the goods to u. S. Companies than so the big danger i think is that europe and germany will be kind of might be a victim of a decoupling system of 2 systems so the rivalry at that point will not be healthy atoll it will lead to a very very big problem for for the germany common economy for the european economies and then also for the World Economy so i think there is a point where we everybody has to go back and say do we really want thought and to what extent do we to do we want to put our positions forward and not and not withdraw. Its already according to critics of beijing business with china really takes place on an even Playing Field and thats not the only problem. Chancellor Angela Merkel in china with the whos who of germanys business sector and her side you know 11 deals are signed. In 28000. 00 china was germanys biggest trading partner for the 3rd year running bilateral trade reached almost 200000000000. 00 euros. But the price of trading with china is high with regard to free Market Access for example despite many promises. German companies complain theyre at a disadvantage in china. With regard to industrial espionage and counterfeiting Foreign Companies that work with china lose millions to piracy. And then theres the social Credit System beijings way of monitoring evaluating and analyzing citizens and businesses. German companies fear all encompassing surveillance. Is china using to tell was here in methods to conduct trade. Is china creating a. Style system of controlling its own citizens. About the social Credit System for example i think its very interesting to look at how that discussion whats going on here in germany for example and whats going on with the discussion going on in china especially if for example about the Credit System and believe it or not many think its actually a good thing because you say look at the crime rates. And then people feel safe im not saying that it come as a cost or im saying its what a lot of chinese. People in general i think its 15 is somehow more important than privacy because they also help people look at privacy is a very different you feel look at the privacy issues through the chinese lens they somehow rather sacrifice their privacy in order to get convenience and also safety so i think from that point of view a lot of chinese doesnt even look at it as a Monitoring System so i think its a quite interesting to just try to i think the chinese says of view and how easy it is actually for the Chinese Government to build up a system. Well youre right that Different Countries have different. Sense of what is acceptable and what isnt acceptable. Agassi here in germany theres quite a strict view in china i think if you look at Public Opinion polls people are accepting of this i think maybe one of the worrying things is that this is being exported to 3rd countries in latin america. Africa etc so i think here in europe theres a concern that if if the west doesnt pull together europe along with the United States and set certain standards of data privacy theres a debate in the u. K. Right now about surveillance. For example at kings cross station. In london so this is a debate that that europe the United States other western countries have to have what is acceptable and what for them goes too far in talking about control and influence over and over there were going to talk about the bells and Road Initiative its the biggest Infrastructure Project in the world they say its bringing jobs and Economic Opportunity to very many countries that havent had jobs and Economic Opportunity in the way that we do in europe it has to be a good think well no not necessarily because they also house to be stunned thoughts what their european you know what your money is focusing on the stuff that of course infrastructure investment. Investments and investments of any at any level should come with a certain standards and such as transparency goals and certain standards of how investments and who how investments are done and who is doing this is rich coming from europe with the who was the Colonial Bank around of the practices in many Southern Hemisphere countries in the past century that thats true that perspective is true but on the other side thats also the danger and that danger has been felt already by some all countries who have been like a dealing with china and big Infrastructure Projects as for long because they cant pay the debts at the end because the infrastructure programs and help us in roads and trains cant they dont be. Ring the money they thought they will bring and then these countries with these poor countries on debt a debt to china and at the end big infrastructure programs constructions will be chinese hands as has as has happened. So its not only an advantage and i think even those countries who might be also quite disorder who has a very complicated history with european colonial. History with those they are also now calling of. Courses how and whether to deal with china because they have seen already quite bad examples so the interesting thing about the Road Initiative is that its not anymore brought forward in any talk and has been like a year ago and a year and a half ago when we held the road emissions of any any chinese official was talking this word definitely was even and now its kind of gone for the moment why is it gone because its not as successful as they thought and we maybe we thought the country thought it from the very beginning. I think sometimes i honestly i never understood why do they have to come up with such a big concept and a name and then for people to target time and see whats dicer i actually because i think this comes to the sort of the chinese tradition they need a big title for they need a sort of almost like a monument to make sure that theres certain credits being done by a certain leadership cares or broaching an impression the world one of the chinese ordinary chinese you dont know its very difficult to generalize but it is a. Comfortable with the status quo or do they do they yearn for their country to be an expansionist nation i think its always deep down rooted in the sort of the chinese psych psyche in a way thats because a weve been told as what you feel grow up in china then you learned the chinese history what with somehow the time as a nation suffered through the opium war and whats going on happen in the 2nd world war over and over again for so. They are 4 times that low on us what you accomplish a study and most of this kind of thing grading over bring that they want tended to be bigger and stronger and that really sort of. Get rid of the humiliation that the chinese have suffered in generations and i think the sentiment is still there on the fetch a big country thats involved from which is no clear borders they need this sort of a concentrate forcing out of whole of this country together and thats always the and the still wont be dead and probably will be there for a long time you know a big country big big middle of military force is not going to be a Major Military parade to the biggest presentation of military hardware that china has ever made on october the 1st whats the message. What is the message is that chinas trying to send out well. I dont know the answer to that i think shes in pink 70th anniversary is a big deal in china and. You know you have this gathering nationalism of the china dream and that shes been paying as he described it and just tell us a little bit about the china during these massive marine poles dusters always welcome to well i think this is just this idea that china is rising up if it suffered through centuries of the Industrial Revolution and trying to sort of left behind and this is about a revival of china you know returning to its rightful place as as a global leader. I think but this nationalism can get out of control of course and i mean china had traditionally has not been an expansionist country like the United States or britain. So we need to remember that important yeah we need to remember that but of course this us china trade war has some people calling it a new cold war is. Inflaming these these and nationalistic views not only in china but also in the u. S. And thats something that can get out of control if the politicians inflame it too much if nothing telling us about chinese sensibilities in china is very most adamant to put time the message we are a values based society were a values based economy want all the values that china brings to the global table that a good values that make the world a better place. It was lets not deter me. It was a private. Well they may not be the same values that. Traditionally associated with western values i mean you know chinas often chris ive criticized for human rights for its human rights record its response is look at all these millions of people that weve taken out of poverty. There are different values right and we talked about the social Credit System in china may be acceptable for a good portion of the population and in many countries certainly in germany would be totally unacceptable. So. What is trying to get contribute to Global Governance i think that is a big question and thats thats something that a lot of a lot of other countries are wondering you know what is the chinese model is it a model that can be. Can be translated to on a global scale as as perhaps we saw after world war 2 with the United States and western europe. Which always sort of Marshall Plan generation yeah yeah. I think there are Big Questions about whether this is the china model has has broader appeal. You know in beyond beyond china and so forth and jumping i think for you simply fish and see if that come come has a value cut it has the advantage sure what the fishes that chinese im bring on the table and say germans are proud of their missions here but its a waiting force one feels and also for them they get we always have this sort of stereotype of the hot lacking rice sometimes even chill much and then that might be and you also mention a rivalry so i think that to a certain extent is actually good its also good to make friends the whole big old industrialized contradict of germany feel a bit nervous about you have to operate gaming us our tanks so i think thats also maybe bring some. Technology i think its not a bad thing is china striving for global some promise for us although i think for what the from the chinese side they always been bad from anything that you remember a couple years ago they always say china as a peaceful rights that was specially referring to whats going on with us asia and if the us route to that neighbor neighbor area right knowledge say we dont export models ok were going to be very quietly yes although it was a good answer thanks very much for joining us here on the shows are the only 2 points the new. Until one bunch of us. Have a horse. Of a. Clue. I subscribe to g. W. Books to meet your favorite writer right. But iraq is too short to find beautiful. Over your books on you to. Stay in school in the jungle. Or 1st climbing less of a minute or as grand a moment arrives. Joining a reckoning on her journey back to freedom. In our interactive documentary during an orangutan returns home on t w dont come to tanks. I am the rain forest i watched them grow up here theyve left but they all ways come back. Yes they always come back. For my trees theyre. My plants their medicine its. For my beauty their escape. And ive always been. And i. Think sometimes i get. Nothing. For cover. Push humans theyre so smart so smart such big brains and opposable foam. They know how to make things Amazing Things now why would they need an old forest like me any. Chunk of tree. Well they do breanne the bear. And i make a. Half they sort of that. Bill thing it really. Human making air thatll be fun to watch. This is. From. Cheaper money to boost europes slowing economy the European Central Bank Launches a new Stimulus Program the bait is buying bonds and cutting Interest Rates in a bid to increase lending to businesses and consumers will have the desired effect also coming up tonight the killer diseases that are preventable the World Health Organization sounding the alarm over the facts in the nation. 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