Chile about suzy welcome to conflicts on thank you very much on welcome to the i. C. C. Thank you the u. S. National security advisor john bolton has said he wants your court to die and he is happy to help bring about that demise do you realize what a serious blow that is to your work it is not a serious blow the court is not because a 123 States Parties to it too strongly supported this is the most powerful country in the world and we want them to be part of the court theyre not and they want we hope there will be we will not cooperate with the i. C. C. He said we will provide no assistance to the i. C. C. We will not join the i. C. C. We will let the i. C. C. Die. Only after all to all intents and purposes the i. C. C. Is already dead to us now he said to you you want them to join this is the answer couldnt be clearer couldnt stop the that is the answer from him the moment we are confident that. They will reconsider we are confident about confidence based on what many tell me tell. The sort of hostility had been shown in the past never to the sixten that and later on another ministration came in even though the maintained in principle that they have difficulties with the i. C. C. And its jurisdictional reach they still did assist the court in very many ways including referring to the darfur situation to the court the United States government did move for time and in doing so when youre dealing with them trying to take ministration over the next one cycle and when they voted in the Security Council to refer to the 4 situation to the i. C. C. They said they thought it because they did not like the idea of impunity and for that reason that they refer notwithstanding the reservations about the court this is not just a refusal to cooperate this is a threat to take punitive measures against anyone even daring to investigate the actions of americans on the club or their closest allies with a view to holding them accountable in an International Court i. C. C. Judges and prosecutors who investigate americans will be barred from entering the u. S. And their friends in the us will be targeted i think thats actually or a question you should be casting about what that means and the rule seriously alone seem to take this serious you seem remarkably complacent about the fact that the most powerful. Country and you say it wants you dead why do you think its complacency it is not complacency what i am saying is leave plant and we them to reconsider their position and join the court and cooperate because this court was established for reasons that america can pan out in the 1st place america has been quite strong in the past about International Criminal justice they were at the forefront of nuremberg proceedings they have hoped with the administration of International Criminal justice along the way since terminals on time or in the past youre talking to me about the past im talking about the present because if youre putting your head in the sand who youre not putting my head in the side what im saying here is that we need them to join us we the reasons the court has created for which the court in its creation have not made the idea is that there should be a place of accountability for those who commit genocide and those who commit crimes against humanity those who commit war crimes but reason those reasons are many imperative that is important to the United States as much as it is for the rest of the world and that is why this court was created you you keep repeating the 2 weeks ago the u. S. Secretary of state might pump air referred to a 27000 request from the i. C. C. Prosecutor to initiate an investigation into the situation in afghanistan that said paul impale could illegitimately target american personnel for prosecutions and sentencing in 2018 the trumpet ministration warned there would be consequences if you went ahead with that request pompei understands that request is still pending is it still pending i dont know i dont know that my answer to you will change as to what i already said but these are just the specifics of what compiler is throwing to he says that. Could illegitimately target american personnel for prosecutions and sentencing that 27000 requests from the i. C. C. Prosecutor to investigate the situation in afghan i cannot comment on pending matter that is a matter now pending before the chamber of this court and we need to be was at that are you going to challenge this incredibly hostile threat from the u. S. Or bow down clearly accepted. When you put it you would use those sort of a mood of the language becomes a little difficult. Other things that can happen between cow towing and the media as you put it and was the other thing you said the point is now we. To consider that this court case important for the global interest for the interest of humanity they want you to change course the i. C. C. Is attacking americas rule of law its not too late for the i. C. C. To change course and we urge that it do so immediately direct direct appeal from the u. S. Secretary of state michael well. As i said he wants an attack yet not half so bad as i already told you that a matter pending before the team but what do you want me to tell you to tell you all right the temper is going to drop it like one so tell me this does the court stand by its 2016 report which said there was a reasonable basis to believe the u. S. Military had committed torture at secret detention sites in afghanistan operated by the cia again to match your report again and matter pending before the trial actually when i can tell you its been in the Public Domain its come from your court what i can tell you is that lets understand the jurisdictional premise of the court. It is that states have the primary responsibility to do justice the court is only a court of last resort is one state unable unwilling to do justice that the i. C. C. Is. Entitled to intervene now that means that for some states the ones we call the evil states they caught them as a mirror of conscience that they need to do justice so that justice does not become an orphan in the territory of Sovereign National sovereignty i understand that your answer can the other. Question and this is relevant to it and the 2nd part of the cause the restriction those who are not able to do justice there are a lot of countries around the world where when these things theyre up they cannot administer justice it is easier to do atrocity than to justice we saw that in rwanda a before the time so i understand that right my question was do does the court stand by its 2016 point 2 percent there was a reasonable basis to believe the us military had committed torture secret tensions do you mean that because they really mean in the Court Reporter youre talking there are examination reports sunday which are made public we were given to the General Assembly this is one of the entrances let me explain to you have a clock now i am a judge the chief judge of the court or. So i speak to you from the perspective of the judiciary i cannot speak to you from the perspective of the office of the prosecutor that is not to say that if i dont answer any question in relation to the office of the prosecutor there is no answer but youre the president of the school the president polygamy the fun its not georgina roundings question liz and im refusing to answer whats already been in the public may be what people to make of that you can characterize it anywhere you want the point is there are ways. And ask the judge i speak from my judgement i cannot be making comments on Something Else that is not in the within the ram it because i have to decide what youre talking about its not the for me as a judge ok so mr pompei was not going to get a. Apply from new to his appeal to change course is he hes not going to get hes going to get the same answer that ive got to listen to which is no answer yeah it definitely shook the case yes ok its not just america is it america is far from being the only country that thats refuses to do with you in fact the most powerful and populist countries in the world have decided that your type of justice isnt for them im talking about china India Pakistan russia thats 3 out of 5 permanent members of the Security Council with the power to block your investigations in countries that are not signed up to your court was a question their veto is another serious block to work isnt it why is that a problem for me. Its for the court all right thats what i mean for the court if stage who should join the court havent joined this is a big problem is that the most powerful unpopular states in the but there are 123 states lets not ignore those the one mistake people make often quite frankly is the ignored those who are in focus and those who are not in thats not fact to those who arent these that all 3 of them have intended you know in weeks months or to come we must be able to respect the participation of the 123 States Parties who continue to have faith in the one hope the court lets not get all lost in the preferences of those who have not yet joined whom we hope will join at some point these 223 countries do not by and large vetoes theyre not permanent members of the Security Council they do it with a veto yes china it poses russia and the United States have a veto it is a factor of concern of course that. One of the weirdest cases come to court is where the Security Council refers it refers a case to the court because we call them situations in respect of countries that are not States Parties of course when you have the possibility of somebody blocking that possibility of dream justice. Where the court would naturally not reach by where of its membership it is a matter of concern it is a lets give you a concrete example you want to investigate the abuses suffered by the right injured people and me and mine thats thats already china has warned you off your claim of jurisdiction last year in the General Assembly was based on an appropriate interpretation of the clickable legal concepts and might make the i. C. C. Is work in the future more contentious undermining further its own 30 and credibility this is a certain. This is the kind of resistance youre facing among the permanent 5 members of the Security Council russia and similar criticisms accusing you of subjectively interpret in what it called the standards of International Law it doesnt matter if theyre right or wrong does it it matters that they have the power and the veto to block you again had to know would write improve on the answer the answer i give you is that. 123 state you have faith in this court and we continue to. Just now we continue to watch those who have not joined to do so so that humanity all over the world come under the umbrella youre watching is pulling on deaf ears well. If you actually asked yourself why it is that those states who have not joined havent done so. Well that should be a question you may want to ask or reflect upon what it means we can write and number of pages thesis on doubles were not here to write ph d. Thesis we can do oh yes lets stay with the facts and what she was set up to do which is to try to the most Serious Problems of the planet and that is very important we should know who signed on and i find the veto that the 3 members that i mentioned permanent members of the Security Council have will keep you for instance from any serious prospect of trying any syrian officials that might be responsible for the mass killing and torture that has taken place that its their veto that has prevented what Human Rights Watch called a path to justice for syrias victims the fact is most go will not allow any referral of syrian leaders to your court under any circumstances we can thats a big gap. It is it is a very important theres no question about that but i staked vitos situation that should ordinarily be brought to court so that humanity is protected by virtue of the mandate of the i. C. C. It is a serious problem but it is one that all of us think that protections including the use of mr sebastian would need to get them to reconsider because this is about humanity it is not about the i. C. C. Everyone keeps focusing i. C. C. I. C. C. We need to look beyond wind i. C. C. Was created there were 6000000. Jews killed because of their faith. During the 2nd world war we 800000 people when the genocide in the night and night i only know what i see see you keep going back and im staying in the present im talking about the relatives of the 400000 victims of the assad regime who have absolutely 0 chance of getting the kind of justice that you would wish to deliver for them ill just say you will not be a kindness to tell them that finally passed but i can do what im doing now using your program to them to reconsider. That position and joining. Because the protection humanity under the rule watch this well that is what we hope to see happen we live in a world that despite your honorable intentions we live in a world where despite still get away with pretty much everything we are hoping that that changes that is why this court was brought into play and theres an irony you have reason to think that that has actually changed theres an irony here isnt there if you kill one person with luck youll be arrested tried and youre convicted you order the death of 400000 people and we all know who were talking about here and youll get invited to peace talks just as i have not invited anybody no you havent you havent so why dont you but syrian officials have and thats the reality of today isnt it thats the america well have more International Law great a body of International Law more courts more experts more judges but thats the reality one person you get tried you kill 400000 you get invited to peace talks thats hardly justices think you and i might be able to. Extend. Thinking loudly whether i should even commented on that but i want to see where youre coming from but i would say that it is a matter that passed all of us you me to the actions of i can judge those concerns in these decisions the stork the reach of isiss jurisdiction to reconsider their position you told the General Assembly last year that the mere existence of this court serves as an obstacle to those wishing to commit crimes against humanity if that were true we would have seen the use of chemical weapons in syria along with the torture and extrajudicial killings the continuing slaughter in yemen the killings in south sudan the targeted executions in the slums of venezuela and the massive loss of life in your own home country nigeria. You cant offer the kind of protection and you can offer the obstacles that you claim a little less for lets back up to full support the reality doesnt match your rhetoric does it i can tell you this i can tell you that yes this court. Has been an obstacle. To the conscience of those who would ordinarily pay it in ways they would not be if we didnt have the schools well i think you havent you can see how its really done not in venezuela not in syria when i cannot comment on some of those issues its a matter of you read the news well i can read you read the news you see whats happened i read the news but never seen some can i tell you something because a week this is them but as i said judge i cannot comment on the propositions you trust me i can speak in general terms about the need for everyone to remember why the court was here the reason why i cannot comment on what you said distinct takes any of those. Cases come up at the i. C. C. It be a problem for me not her chances that hes not shot and so sure that its not much chance we have to keep hoping. That you can not fail to notice is a human gene its manners will and the states men and women who make these decisions will reconsider their position so that everybody subscribe to the i. C. C. Laws and there are some not for reconsidering their positions you have the withdrawal of existing signatories to the room treaty like the philippines and burundi and i ask you whether you can blame them because the big powers refused to collaborate with you why should the spores and we just recently had the malaysian join us dont forget this you have thats what about the withdrawal of the philippines and burundi where there are clear cases to answer why not clear cases of Human Rights Violations what what what what do you expect me to say to that it is for them they made the decision to draw for reasons that reasons we q. And i. Can discuss in under circumstances but thats not for the i. C. C. Its not ice he says its a baby. To work isnt it. Because not only are you having countries withdrawing you having others that are flouting their commitments to the cause of the philippines and burundi the dimensions. Drew because they say that i. C. C. Was investigating cases in relation to that now what is the other problem for the i. C. C. In the moral sense that youre trying to apply because i. C. C. Is doing its work and people who choose to withdraw and then thats a problem for the i. C. C. I dont see it but youre doing your work i would be that because i. C. C. Was precisely doing its why some people didnt like it that they made this unfortunate decision that we regret in 2016 the group of former World Leaders known as the elders called for the urgent reform of the i. C. C. Required it said to improve its overall performance and effectiveness in delivering justice for all in a timely manner not such a reform as they said would lead to the enhance credibility of the court there have been no reforms since 2060 reforms. It depends on what we mean reform. Id be the faster to tell you that as a Human Institution this court yes. Of erotic review of it manner of doing 1. 00 to 2. 00 to do battle like we do in our lives not like every other site institutional company would do that is taken for granted but in a battle of what people are talking about the rather some reforms that are more difficult to achieve because. You need to amend the rooms tattooed on thats a more difficult proposition but closer to home judges will want to keep on reviewing how we do the one to improve how. We do things there have been some serious missteps doesnt help when you have there. With all of the former every coast president Laurent Gbagbo for instance earlier this year this was seen as a stunning defeat wasnt it for what was the 1st prosecution of a former head of state Amnesty International code it a crushing disappointment to victims of post election violence in the country do you share that disappointment i do not share the counter rises of stunning defeat i do. Understand the concern of those who speak on behalf of the victims i could see. They would be disappointed by such results but understanding oh i think with the victims. One can say they should not lead us to taking short cuts to the Washoe County you need better prosecution central to the judge to no toughest one of your colleagues said the prosecutor had failed to submit sufficient evidence to demonstrate the responsibility of mr gbagbo as well as his former youth minister i can satisfy the burden of proof this is a prosecution failure isnt it i cannot comment on that because i mean the Appeals Court will be of this court and that kids might come of the appeal and because of the time something i cannot comment on it because what i want to see what i was saying is that. You know its not just like with all the prison procedures it means perfect in the court and certain that theres too much of it hes not high that everything is possible to have everything is imperfect he had a string of losses there in a string of reverse and you listen to me please along the way theres all kinds of continuum that we must take into account the judge i must tell you that i do not regard acquittal its a stunning defeat citing understand. Victims will be disappointed. But we handle other ways of trying to attend to the victims for instance the something we call the trust fund for victims by the way. To donate is not just this message thats not justice to donate to the trust fund for victims Something Else thats not just them Systems Program takes there is no conviction am i right or wrong in thinking that a prosecutors job is to bring to court he will pull case based on solid evidence that will stand up in court and that hasnt been happening the last meal is questions and he did not want to be easy if he seems to be written out that is simply what we can write appears if he says now you know if you where you can give me a much simpler than that i cannot give you about simple answers some things are not susceptible to simplistic answers you sense an excuse is not it is not an excuse the fact of the matter is this if you focused on accountability and we need to focus on the room started promised come to belittle people he did not promise that every case that comes to court must result in a conviction that do you know. We are not here running for you called i think. The holy inquisition even. Right did not convict everybody or else when failed to stand up fortunately were running out of temp you know that we really have child the only money to get really 3 percent of went through the. City thank you very much for being a complex thank you. Surrounded by coal mines. This is the village of a creamy in northern green. People were getting ready to move away until it turned out theres no cool here. That was 8 years ago. Up our job is a disaster but no one seems to care for the government the. 30 minutes w. They are aiming high. For the donors of the caricature of. Their hope to become the most in guidance of. Their dream a Better Future for their families. Their past a rocky and dangerous one. Where giving up is not an option. Simply from a small w. Look closely. Carefully. Dont know super. Nice to do good. Old fashioned. Discover the im. Going to. Subscribe to the documentary on you tube. 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