Incursion into Northern Syria so our question here on quadriga this week then as you joe is free but what game is turkey playing and to discuss that question im joined here in the studio by. Who writes on turkey for the front for the argument its item he says freedom for dennys you joe doesnt symbolize a serious change in turkey unfortunately there is no place for hope he adds also with us his mission to man as a Foreign Policy specialist for the weekly treat sites he lived for several years in istanbul and he argues that turkey is hoping for transactional deals but values stand in the way of closer relations with germany and a Warm Welcome Center or rekha how man author and journalist with the berlin based daily the target sites on board says it is also more commonly known as you joe work for many years and during college he. Is that Everyone Wants to make sure hes not fighting on too many fronts he needs germany because in syria hes provoking the america. But i mean my lets begin with you you are a friend of dan is huge ill explain for us why his case and his personality his person became so important for so many people in germany well actually you should start first at the personal too often hes rich and he was one of the most ambitious most reliable journalists in turkey i mean as a foreign journalist so he always his stories were always made the government so angry so. To silence him they just created a case to put him in prison but then as a person who has two different pest ports he become one of the symbols about the tension between turkey and germany actually he was kind of the host that took i took his government against germany i mean his his arrest went had no links with law and even his release has no relation with low it was just the case it was kind of a negotiation between two countries and something happened behind the curtains and he is now free ok lets just hear what dennis you joe had to say he had himself to say specifically about that point of view that was just mentioning you know we go. The funny thing is i still do not know why i was arrested a year ago to be more precise why i was taken hostage a year ago and i also dont know why i was released today. Didnt you also spent time in a turkish jony for a couple of days i know but what insights did it give you well if you speed that. We always read above the best history of talk is joining this they suffered a lot in turkish republic the thing is i have learned personally that your government never forgets what you have did before even if you dont have any links with the good in this even if you didnt take any role in the military coup in the input they dont forget your past what you did as a journalist and read one has a he which has a huge faith and he never forgets about the germans and they always punish you at the right time and after the port they use the pooch to punish their old enemies frightening and fascinating i would. Have on you were worked together with them as you generate the tops where you were presently what was the reaction of you among yourself and your colleagues to the news that he had been released in july because of even immensely relieved us news five it was also very stressful time because of course it was very obvious that we had to support dennis went on in prison sylvia mounted. Actions of a free dennis movement in order to get in free so for us that was really. Enormous relief finally to be successful and to get him free but at the same time and thats something id like to add it is of course tragic that while dennis came free three other attackers joined as the condemned for life and now is a life sentence in jail you know its kind of problematic of course we had to concentrate on tennis because otherwise you cannot if you want to get some for one frame cannot talk about turkey as a whole. About everyone sitting in jail but at the same time of course it is a problem that now everyone focuses on dennis and the other target on this that andrea somehow forgotten. The short term and whats your view on her or what can you tell us about the connection between denise you joe his release and dennis you joe the person and the Current Situation in syria the war the incursion that turkey finds itself whats the connection between those two. Well at first sight i think theres a little connection of course but if we look take the general picture of how and taki tries to mend fences on the one hand and wage war on the other hand. In a year or two years ago the main focus of on was europe and so far as he described europe and particularly germany as the as the enemy at the s. As the adversary he stirred up Public Opinion against europe and germany. With the war going on in syria things have changed no he is in a very difficult position in with the americans arguing about the role of the syrian kurds. There was even the prospect of a possible conflict between the u. S. And turkey in syria so there are lots of problems at that front and. Since. I think late late summer fall last year tried to mend has tried to mend fences with europe and particularly germany and in his youth his release is the result of the house he in some way been used as a bargaining chip against the backdrop that youve just described. I think not really i mean as far as we know and this is what both the German Foreign minister and the text found is that there is no deal struck. We dont know more than this because both foreign ministries and governments dont talk about that if we look at the longer prospect if he was a bargaining chip for anything he is part of this normalization process which turkey would like to see happening on the one hand and of course what the europeans might return and here i think we need to focus especially for example on things like the modernization of the e. U. Turkey Customs Union which is something where theres a lot of money in for turkey and which could also really come as a relieve to many other financial challenges and political challenges turkey has been and what do you say about this question is be much discussed here in germany about whether there is you joe has been used as a bargaining chip or what turkey wants for his release the German Foreign minister says there is no deal has been struck and im wondering whether hes telling the whole truth well the first thing i think the mission is very jealous i mean because a country a whole country and the whole ministers the whole recruited you dont try to go over the guy. When they try to you know rescue a journalist from a country you know its something that we have never witnessed in our country and in the country other countries trying to put much more journalists in jail so its really the thing that we need to add my first but the thing is theres a still he would poke recy in the German Government like one year ago. Told to the press that took his government is getting away from being a democratic and the rule of law country he said it in may two thousand and seventeen and after the news has been released the same minister mr guppy told to the press that talks government is always careful about freedom of the judgments system from the government so its really unbelievable and the things the details that we have learned about the news release it shows us that there was a huge negotiation and both are both governments they knew that the will be released the government had sent a private plane two or three days before this has been released to arrange the plane we learned from d. P. A. Yesterday and we know that mr benoliel did the docks Prime Minister when he came to berlin before he met from work and he thought that i hope that the news will recently it will be so happy that you got released and one day later the prosecutor they prepared the indignant and one day later he was released and two days later the turkish Prime Minister in munich in the in the security conference he told that they are ready to produce a common thanks together with germany so unfortunately these small details shows that the news wasnt and then israelis were so happy about it really very very close on nothing. Just briefly on the tank issue i think we are still quite far from that because. The commonly produced tank is basically. Tacky ones this ones this turkish tank and so they can provide some things to that but the main technical technologically advanced parts would come from iran mittal. And i think we are still. Very far from that kind of an agreement because at the moment its politically you cant implement you cant explain that and particularly why that campaign is open to question of the future but i think what is what this what youve just said shows is that it was surely political the whole process to put him to rest him to release him it was all political dealings and but but it all happens in the framework of what the turkish government wants at the moment normalization and gabrial i think he played that game with the turkish government by said by saying quote unquote independent judicial system of turkey. Was it ironic wasnt second asked was it cynical i dont listen lets pick up on the point of normal normalization germany and western countries have criticised turkeys response to the two thousand and sixteen failed coup tens of thousands of people have been jailed many more have lost their jobs in turkey is reported to be a world leader in the imprisonment of journalists. The authorities moved the site of the trial of the joe maria journalist from the palace of justice in histon bull to a high security prison at celebrity thats where denise you gel was held in pretrial detention. But the defendant supporters turned out again and again to protest what they consider the antidemocratic policies of the turkish government. Is the best known journalist among the defendants hes been in jail for more than a year. Another journalist at all times his brother and four others were sentenced to life in prison just hours after your job was released. How far has turkey moved away from the rule of law. The big question how far is turkey moved away from the rule of law and michel i was just talking about the prospects of normalization of relations between germany and turkey gemmas to be a very prominent green politician with turkeys german roots has come out and said normalization of this point in time is absolutely not possible is he right to review. And i think its clear to everyone here in germany that you cannot its not pleasant chancellor merkel it but you know what she tries her best you know she is someone who never ever escalates. A to go ahead get ahead of developments she is very very cautious and of clothes it would be for her it would be completely it would be dangerous to somehow incense that adeline but i think at the same time everyone knows that hes a dictator and that youve really cannot count on what hes doing next and what add one ones is that more tourists come to come to the turkey i think thats is fine aim that. Germany to. Issue its own inhabitants that they can. Travel safely to the turkey because turkey really needs this money from the German Tourists and many of the tourist stayed at home because they were fed of turkey and of course the whole issue often is usually the daily made it clear to the germans that is safe to travel to turkey i think thats the main reason why dennis was finally released somehow. Pop up business. Blew my we see meetings between angloamerican and the Prime Minister were seen meetings between two Foreign Ministers they were they engaged in a two ceremony to friendly together that sounds like normalization to me. Well it sounds i mean thats thats what the politicians do i mean the thing is we as journalists we need to tell the realities i mean of course i will i would never ask or wait that my country would have huge problems with john of course these two countries should vote together they have a long tight in history i mean like more than three or four Million People living in germany or just people thats quite good the relations should be good but the thing is. We shouldnt get used to the politicians people crissy we should always force them to come first to talk about the realities i mean when the news is free we shouldnt think that everything is ok everything got normalized between two countries and we shouldnt tell the scenes of the turkish government what theyre still doing shall we keep silence no we should still continue criticising them but whats really happening nowadays especially in the German Government is they stop criticizing whats really going on in the country like every a picture to buy d. P. A. And until an agency which shows that at a tank produced by germany was used in syria and they showed that picture to the press guy of the German Government and he said that we dont have any information if these low part tanks are being used in syria or not but there are still pictures even denver is the reality theyre trying not to talk about it but thats thats really didnt thats the face of the politics when you talk about realities just tell our audience a little bit about what the situation is like for you on the ground into you because you are of fiercely critical. Journalist working criticizing the turkish government and living into it he was like well its not easy actually when youre sitting on your desk and try to type youre trying to type your article you always think that after a couple of days and when your when your story is very a column is being to translate them published in germany they can knock your door in the middle of the night if that didnt happen you dont feel yourself free to write everything but the thing is someone should do that i mean even my very. Because france are in jail and we should do something for them theyre not outside and they can try to we should do the realities on the ground the problem is. They side with the whole community i mean they always think that we put that journalist in the jail and. Nobody will be able to criticize of actually putting some joins in the jail is the message to the rest of the media so the rest of the media are frightened not to write and think about that we dont have any Mainstream Media in the country thats the biggest problem for it you know michel to money is rigid tired to want a dictator. If we if we talk about dictatorship we talk about a concept of the Twentieth Century i think. I think what he is doing is hes establishing and strong the authoritarian system with some democratic decoration so he insists. Hes is having elections and he but by having a lections he makes sure that hes going to win these elections and tidy he you still have every time you say dictatorship and somebody comes along and says well but there there are newspapers which are still reporting more or less freely but of course these newspapers are insignificant so that is basically what we today call a hybrid autocratic hybrid offering tarion system thats what we have so and that leads me to that point where we were just talking about the normalization question i think this is the reason why there cant be and you know normalization because what we have in turkey is the end is the total absence of the rule of law. Germany is a state with the rule of law and that is why these two states are to a certain degree incompatible and this is the reason why i think in the future well have lots of problems precisely because of the because turkey is asking for the extradition of turks living in germany germany wont do it all these kinds of things so well run of new it into numerous problems because of that that mismatch of the two systems where weve mentioned already the president that iran has ordered a military offensive in Northern Syria its getting a lot of backing back home in turkey a lot of International Criticism here is some of the images of whats going on. Turkish president regift type heir to one portrays himself as an uncompromising defender of National Unity and he will do whatever it takes to block kurdish demands for more autonomy. Or to one has also vowed to crush terrorist groups that he claims threaten turkeys sovereignty. Turkish troops continue their offensive against a Syrian Kurdish rebel group called the white p. G. D. But the u. S. Considers the y. P. G a key ally in the fight against whats left of the Islamic State organization. The alliances among the states involved in the syrian conflict are constantly shifting. His or her to one leading turkey into International Isolation. So lets pick up immediately oh my question already koreas president had one leading took into International Isolation well he is leading turkey into a confrontation with the us but of the same time he counts on russia thats very obvious that now is somehow a that he things that his biggest ally is pluton event at the same time of close turkeys the v cup hot fourteen is the one who says what is happening in turkey has some haldol bay but thats at this find i think the best option. Adlon thinks he has because he wanted to have a wall in order to somehow. Have good news for his own domestic base because at home they have a big economic problems and the economy is collapsing theres a high unemployment so he needed to somehow put himself into the role of a big war hero so that fulfill it was about to move how is turkey status as a nato member affected by the the crackdown at home in the military incursion abroad. Who is a is a values based alliance its a values based alliance that is what basically the wisdom of the past ten years or so if we look further back into history of course we had examples like port hugo and then. We had three s and turkey for that matter during the coup times nine hundred sixty seventy eighty so that as. Nato has always been an alliance of members with. Some doubtable credentials and matter but here what were we face is the problem of turkey and the us on two sides of the battle battle trench and syria and that is a problem so if we will come i think the visit of foreign minister to lesson in ankara has led to some easing of the tensions between the u. S. And theres an agreement that they dont want to confront each other on the battlefield but i dont know if a ha long that lasts and all depends on how far and where add one will turn his troops to so if he goes in the direction of men beach town in Northern Syria. Controlled with u. S. Soldiers i think well definitely see a confrontation because. The socalled adults in the room and washington. The ministers of. The dhamma transit and they are not willing to concede this kind of control because its the last stronghold of the us in syria so that might then have effects after all and that on it might have effects after all also on nato but we are not there yet i think even if i missed it because in the. Everyone knows that trump has no personal interest in syria and that he will not engage in syria but of course if the if one attacked us soldiers then being in much will just as adeline but no longer tolerate it and you know it and i think thats something i dont really understand i think he knows what trump is like because he is like trying to solve so he would never ever attack i think you know if i sell your rice but mind you add one did that mistake with russia ones hold on a russian x. And handed to me still i have no trust in this man this Riyadh Police but lets see i meant. Well everything is based on the elections in the one where i was there was right there in the president ial leadership president ial elections at the end of twenty nine to this is the stepping stone the reason that our government and overarm say is that the kurdish guerrillas theyre linked to peter king and their thirst organizations so we need to them all the stuff thats thats going to understandable reason for turkish government but the question is recently for a couple of years this area is in the in the score discuss why today why the turkish troops today started a war there and its all about the elections in two thousand and nineteen and all polls show that before the operation i guess of before that like before christmas we all saw that the poll showed that heres whats around forty and they were less than the last referendum because you want economic collapse with the economy cries of International Problems they all creates really unhappiness in the country and he needed that he needs and they should list week three to be able to be like the emperor of a free we know that. Today there was that there was kind of a. Story in a turkish newspaper a calmness or wrote that if he cannot win the first round in two thousand and nineteen between two elections he can open the third saw conflict zone in syria two to be able to win it so he can do anything to win that election because its kind of a race for him he will he will be able to stay or not in two thousand one hundred three important for ok we began with you but im sorry i theres one question id like to go off and its sort of a little bit of a tangent and just ask you we talked weve talked in the discussion about how dependent turkeys on germany turkey is perhaps on nato membership how dependent is germany on turkey. There are hostages that turkeys a big nato partner and of course the refugee problem and the british you share a refugee problem is number one here is turkish population here in germany and as you are thats right but the poll that had been published by b. Of last week it shows that they had the whole of the fear in this country is getting bigger and bigger about the refugees and that helps if the in this country so anything can happen in the Country Trains or whats going to in the german you tube ok thank you very much for those thoughts thank you all for in for being yeah weve been discussing turkey dinners you jellys free what again is turkey playing was the question if you knew weve given you plenty of food for thought come back next week bye bye interest. This is full of sensory overload delis has just about everything. Seems to have a. Place people scurries. And smugness to pass an aging story. To. The old lady of the fifteenth. Lying dormant shell like the biggest favorite seamlessly all the best goals weve got all the action. Is the whole of german football shared experience every match if someone does league of the weekend cheer on g. W. Birth place home tubes of species. 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Russia has used its veto at the Un Security Council to block a resolution that would have set up a cease fire in syria the thirty day truce proposed by sweden and kuwait would have allowed humanitarian aid to be delivered to the heavily bombarded damascus suburbs since sunday an estimated three hundred people have been killed in a road