Olli welcome to conflicts thank you very much for having me you told a newspaper in india last november two zero is now as secure as any country in the world is not true is that when i think compared to two thousand and fifteen and sixteen i can repeat the same statement. As secure as any country in the world are five areas listed as no go areas by the state department u. S. State department no but when they said this because they compared with two thousand fifteen when we had the first terrorist attack attack and then on the night two thousand sixteen today i think that our forces are better trained well equipped but not as secure as any country in the world as most of the countrys elite yes when you read what the state department. Has to say give you an example western mountains and Champion National park terrorist groups continue to operate in the mountains of western tunisia ok for kasserine the algerian border terrorist groups continue to operate in these areas city busied in central tunisia terrorist groups continue to operate in this area that doesnt sound very stable exaggerated frankly these are the first days a part of those no was talking about let me tell you these are the fringes i mean on the border of tunisia these are you have talking about mountains and these mountains of course we never said that about territory in tunisia yet but these are. These are very small groups they are very well tackled by our forces we know them where they are moving and we are following them but i put it to you that your advice is dangerously misleading limits not people believe the state department with the biggest most sophisticated Intelligence Service in the world or the ministry of a country who wants to revive its tourist electorate in which this state department is not saying that we need is not secure and i just sang places not to go again not go there yeah but do not go in you know also you have places where not to go where and where what would work very very close up no terrorist threats they are all over the world yes but they are not no go areas because listen to i think there is no territory in tunisia held by terrorists there is no one i know that they said no terrorist groups continue to operate in this area three three four five areas yes but he said that they are not Holding Territories they are a few groups they are acting we are following them but they have been this threat we are aware of it but they are not targeting we are not going like other middle Eastern Countries where the terrorists were able to hold the reprise tunisia is completely and their control of the state mrs you know your own interior minister gave a vivid picture of the hugely extensive terrorist operating in your country. He said in twenty seventeen it broken up fourteen network sending terrorists to conflict zones six Terror Networks more than one hundred twenty terrorist recruiting cells how many hundreds of others are there that you dont know about you havent got this is a huge Extensive Network of terrorists operating in new york yes but these are thats when youre in syrian doesnt honor these scenes these these shows first of all that our forces now they know about the sense they were working to give us the cells they dont know about the next one yeah but they know that but lets be very happy that to tell you that the last two years tunisia was immune of any terrorist threat this is the belief that of our Security Forces. You have several thousand tunisians who went off to fight with isis and reputed to be the largest per capita number from any country some of them have been filtering back home we dont know how good your border controls are in twenty fifteen report by Transparency International said your security and Customs Officials suffered from a lack of transparency and scrutiny so we dont know how good your border controls are these people coming back in first you cant be complacent frank frankly speaking first of all speaking about several thousands i think here you are exaggerating these are reports by the media these are reports they said several several thousand dollars i didnt say seven i said several several thousands nobody is able to count them to say that there really is these are people working i mean fighting in the hot spots nobody when they are coming and they have suffered and you have no property Radicalization Program in your country no property Radicalization Program according to the tunisian form for economic and social rights theres not theres not a program there is no problem of what sort of radicalization of course there is of course there is there is a comprehensive policy regarding trying to direct radicalize or these young people its a reason that they are they say whatever they like but im telling you on behalf of the government that there is a National Comprehensive program that link with the working with women with the in education in social affairs and its involvement on the department of them maybe but a lot of these people have come back are sitting under house arrest but even if youre going to do with them of course if some of them thats not the radicalization know if an israeli can in any in any democratic country were which is the respecting the rule of law these people when they come back of course they are held and theyre awaited where the police and if found guilty there. To the court and of course they would be prosecuted because it lets talk about your claim to be respecting the law because your governments commitment to human rights and democracy has also been contested the International Crisis group warned last month or two zero was drifting back towards its old or thora tarion reflexes something im sure you will deny but Freedom House reported that your failure to consolidate democracy meant a sharp decline in this years Freedom Index reflecting its patent of authoritarian behavior and the president subsea but Freedom House rated treaties are the first. And the meta reason Freedom House to easy is the most free country and that but its not living up to the hopes says with the latest downgrade theyve downgraded it is number one now they downgrade let you check clearly and that is about one but they have downgraded our lead to better late just downgrade tunisia has come dangerously close to losing its status as the only free greece to emerge from the arab states these kind of reports this is not reported by everybody. Frankly speaking i dont know on which most of the human rights organizations western youre right organization they do not have a good picture and i want to go into some of these they do not have a good picture of your progress towards a democratic swell let me tell you what we are doing in the program well explain to you that we are but i just want to make the point that it didnt inspire confidence last september that three of the new faces in the government had served as ministers during the dictatorship of ben ali and if they are able and capable to do or to handle the department i mean that does not mean they have not got prosecuted by the by the justice they were never said that these people you know the committed any crime that one of the old system what signal does that send what depends what the purpose of revolution for if you didnt bring back all these old faces yes all traitors but the these people be they didnt serve in the dictator here. But they are they were not. Implicated you know involved in any criminality is there is no reason not to or frankly speaking in a democratic system there is no reason to recruit able people to run the country when there arent that the country is going through thought dition so we are losing as a test of our generally did you really imagine tunisia and staged a revolution in order to see these old and discredited faces brought back according to the Carnegie Endowment bensalem. Hatem ben salem was widely seen as an apologist of the old regime for denying its Human Rights Violations also controversially or finance minister really the child whom who was named in the Carnegie Endowment posting as being close to the ben ali family and these billions of people you want that will factor. A lot about that over a better engine is. Not that many where people are but these people going to think about what signal theyre all sending will theres no signal we didnt choose them because they belong to the old regime i mean the chief of the government the Prime Minister choose them because he thought that these people are the right people for the this time the department of education and the finest it is not you want to collect you want to correct the evils of the past and you bring back the people who are sometimes back in sociate it becomes eagles led by that these people they were not involved in security they. Could have thirty people or they were not and werent in touch or these people are a Civil Servant the ministers they were minister yes they have these two people they were running technical departments they were not related to politics. Months tunisia saw widespread social protests in january there was widespread concern among western human Rights Groups the way your government handled them even the uns High Commission we have the right how our government handled this that i yes the uns High Commission. If a human right is particularly exercised by the many hundreds of people you arrested and felt the need to remind you that all those detained should have full respect for their rights those concerns were justified let me first tell you of the protest in the democracy its a healthy sign. Our Financial Savvy about the way let it going to play being about here wages handle yes throwaways a house fire to protest let me tell you openly and that actually and that our forces handle these protests with a lot of professionalism there was no single casualties these that are were running towards that. But no single country things if in any democracy in the world it can happen some or some accident but here sitting over there at these wild accidents and on january the thirty first Human Rights Watch accused your police of beating up some of the people detained and denying their right to a lawyer under two new zealand law thats a direct violation of your own laws. No im not aware of this practice because i dont know from where youre reading this Tunisian League of human rights just visited twenty three suspects yes in the morning or gear prison on january the seventeenth they reported that most of them had marks consistent with beatings on their bodies but assistant allegations of mistreatment mistreatment of police see a deliberate policy introducer today i can tell you know if there are so you americans are out of control yeah no but if theyre out incident i cant i cant say one hundred percent the didnt happen but this is not what they can afford to do today but this is not a deliberate state police to get back the military is not a privilege careless then if it isnt a state policy because its going on there is no witnesses were interviewed and victims were interviewed as well according to Human Rights Watch some people were arrested simply for distributing leaflets that the government didnt like calling for so no chance there if there is. A resolution or commitment of a free speech yes they arrested six had that people on seven hundred are want to point out a lot more than seven hundred more than seven hundred these people most all of them they have been freed those who were involved in looting vandalism they went to the court and they have been persecuted according to the low twentys or today is a country which respects the role of the rule of law to call them all criminals and looters its the same kind of no matter the old regime in the you see you got all of them now frankly speaking of the i didnt say theyre all of them there some of these people are expressing real social despair well yesterday and they are in the last week they are because now like governments in the last seven years and failed to meet their expectations of the nine governance system. Let me tell you with this living in the transition and in any transition period of course you. Have stability of the government that this is this that the question is does the know is the transition going forwards or backwards its going as a lot of these reckon i would suggest that theyre going to announce that there is a National Consensus not just the government including the opposition the demarc that it is a National Rule to consolidate the Traditional Democratic transition in tunisia and there is no going back there is no return link and there is no there is a strong will to continue on the path of course we did take the democratic process were told of that during last years universal periodic review of the Union Human Rights council your country came under sustained criticism for aspects of its behavior Amnesty International as well as many other groups waste concern about impunity for torture and pointed out there have actually been few if any successful prosecutions of your officials for torture thats a disgraceful cannot mention first of all let me these cases they are in the court and if they are in the court today in tunisia we will keep to have an independent justice so its up to the Justice Courts to decide above the street and not in the special rapporteur on the promotion of truth justice and reparations said last year many alleged perpetrators of gross Human Rights Violations remained active in your Security Services how can that be. So special rapporteur on the promotion of truth justice and resurrection is he truly is you see hes a un special rapporteur so he reported actual universal periodic review session here last year at the un Human Rights Council saying that the we continued saying that many alleged perpetrators are still employed and active in your Security Services so you dont even suspend them when they are no suspicion and well i think most of them they have. Suspended i dont say that one had percent now there is no people suspected to be be involved in these kinds of practices but the most of them one of the penalties for torture in your country its all relative such the torture is forbidden by law an example of that is not is in two cases in july twenty fifteen where officials were found guilty they received a suspended sentence but thats not bad not a deterrent yes but thats not the government meeting torture yes but thats not a government that presiding over a country that doesnt deal with basic justice here but this is a very matter of justice is not a matter for the you are talking to executive minister alexander you proud of this and im not of course im not so whats going to be even about is happening if we are i am sure my people and our people let their looking into to these shall come in there trying their best to address them that Ministry International put it since two thousand and eleven the overwhelming majority of credible allegations of torture and other serious violations by Security Forces have not been independently and impartially investigated is that the sort of country that you want to preside over the theres another bit of the like i think that its not about making this stuff up mark most people have lost most most of the tunisian people most of the political families in tunisia this is not the kind of country they want they want to full fledge a democratic country we are proud of the she went we have already made we are not yet a democracy to be honest we are not yet a democracy we never pretended that we are full we finished actively our promises we have over masses we are on the path of reaching a democratic system where transparency the rule of law will be respected decision we have not yet mrs you told the Human Rights Council your government last year in response to their many criticisms that you would ensure all allegations of torture. Impartially investigated when but let me when you heard. That commitment of the government if my my people you know said to the reliever this that shows that of course they are doing but but when asked how frankly you are asking me question detailed question which if you knew that you were going to ask me this i would have brought to the defense for you what i always human rights minister met told Amnesty International last year it was taking time he said taking time to overcome the ben ali legacy my question to you why is it taking time if you tell your police not to torture people anymore why is it taking time for them to have daily or when first of all we have to educate our police we have to train them so there was a lot of that we dont always have people you know that is yes but you dont torture p. T. S. Yes but not so difficult when others are it is not a matter of torture its a matter of working and serving a democratic system this is for them out of their out of control youre saying you cant control i mean i dont say that they are out of control but i mean this is not the mainstream of the Reason Police what we have depicted here is a wrong picture the mainstream is trying to respect the rule of law to respect the market existence but maybe in these there are some cases and never pretended that this is over its going to take time but there is a political will strong will to work towards having a full fledged democracy where the respect for human rights and the rule of law will be the rule of the government mr generally what makes your promise so difficult to believe is that you are pressing ahead with a new law that would actually extend the impunity of your Security Services this is the repression of attacks against Armed Forces Bill this bill that is in Committee Stage at the moment. Human Rights Groups say if your promises to human rights committee. Genuine youd scrap the stairwell extension peel is the last Security Services to get away civilians not yet violations this bill is not yet adopted it is under discussion it has been controversial that means that the government and those who present that be listening to the people and them sure they will be reform and get according to the will of the people. Youre sure about that when i said it so why are you sure you that there are two very controversial aspects of this law and your interior minister said the other way this law was going to go through it wouldnt be withdrawn theyre not going to withdraw it criminalizing socalled denigration of police and other Security Services and. The law about its secrets the proposal that anyone who discloses publishes National Security related secrets can spend ten years in jail and well well the idea is that its now and the discussion and if there are any reforms amendment to that law there will be taken care of and they will be. Met accordingly theres a huge protest thats caused huge protests from Civil Society in the tunisian their oppression from the police do you think that you understand now today tunisia is a free country so there are pressure from the police the those Police Forces who would like to get more like to get away with any violation they want to practice thats the truth isnt it this law if it goes through as it is written of them i would allow that it will not get as it is as i said its and the discussion and im sure all these observations will be taken care of when the law will be out of the bureau already under attack if it is and that discussion by the parliament and that are the parliament then Political Parties so its not the government which is around it this is your ballot youre already under attack for the law that you have passed which is the socalled administrative reconciliation law lets be clear it grant amnesty to Civil Servants who facilitated corruption under the bally regime without putting them through any Legal Process what so i let me explain to you this is getting away with everything going on none of this is not getting weve passed this here this is already gone through let me explain to you this low because you are getting a wrong ever measurable. This is a law regarding those judge and Civil Servant who are working under the benign you who got the instruction the political instruction to you know so that the israelis a lot of responsibility because they were ordered to do something bad what are you saying that they had no personal responsibility not only the difference no right and wrong not whether they were instrumental or not see what happens now and the administration which is a quite an important tool for guaranteeing you know the success of the transition in the Administration Today nobody is able and ready to sign anything. He wants to get you know protection the law directly contradicts what the Prime Minister said when he came to power in twenty sixteen he said our slogan today is no immunity for corruption to anyone but no to hiding behind political cover which is what they do is corruption crimes will not pass and then you pass this law of these which allows that i do say to these people they didnt get money in that book they didnt come after anybody they just you know they were in the lower iraqi theyre just and clementon decision so this law has been utterly rejected by the International Center for Transitional Justice as well as your own National Council of the Bar Association so popular is it that this is sort of the ocular virtual view although that is a debate going on in tunisia we should let the laws being passed here but the no i mean we thought that this is a way to help the administration running the daily business of the government so theres a way to help people escape their responsibility to know that thats not for their part in the dictatorship if they have committed any crime and this law does not protect them them from being prosecuted for any crime or corruption because this is just related to the civil civil part of the job you have to read the law it has nothing to do i mean if you have bill Bar Association with the law and they came up with a completely different career because of this this or so whos looking after justice them or you know that they are there but and the justice is not us who are looking after we are the executive branch and we are not the world that the justice you keep passing these laws which are so unpopular you want the west and the i. M. F. To continue funding these anti democratic processes its not counting them a critical process because it is not going to this is according to your lawyers a. S. L. s according to the International Organization of some of our lawyers not all of them some of their big contest grow they are in the right accountancy but that doesnt mean that the other night we havent a democracy. People are waiting for milestones theyre waiting for the much delayed Constitutional Court yes which was probably theyre waiting for municipal elections i have delayed and delayed we see a Prime Minister who promises that this will be the last difficult year for the people of tunis yet hes in no position to make a promise like why not well you know now that well let me first regarding the cause of the Constitutional Court it will be there before the end of two thousand and eighteen the very was a. Prime minister pledges a promise this and it is and now there is a proposal in front of the parliament thats the way it is late today and thats the way it is late yet but this is where this is before the end of the one date of the government of this government deal of the municipal election would be taking place all the six of me and just the Prime Minister said that that date will be respected and the election will will take will take place thats a promise is a it is not probably is a commitment all right this just always been good to have you on the program thank you thanks very much for being with us thank you you thank. The. Kitchen elf. Statues of theres an old phrase because hes become famous. By bringing his explicit christian into the company canteen. Let others have failed to close steps if this gets the flu mist cool may feel. Good news. Make your smart t. V. Smarter with the d. W. Force more. What you want when you want to move up to the extraordinary. Depth of the song what song sunday morning. Comes more cheesy. We make up about three quarters of cox the undergraduates we are the sum of the surface of. The want to shape the continents future. Going to be. Comforting youngsters especially share their stories their dreams and their challenges. The seven percent to the big platform for africa. Its charging. Dangerous and while. Im hungry. Venture of china. Trip by airplane seventeen thousand kilometers in six weeks worth checking back. On for a good experience. Touching. On the cement longest from china starting february twenty seventh just a. Bit on what it is you know i mean in your minutes in. Kosovo now theres this indico media. Us all with out about. Vision of getting. It on what it. This you know i mean in your monotonous incline you know what ink i park is on a moment out is. What im focused on in the studio but im with what an organizer ive got is a term of. This you know i mean in your mind are a single and you are getting and when you cry i dont want to. Mean im going to end unanimous. The show could go because i see it right yes it said. I should. Put out ive only said but i thought of going on with her today finding. Guns here because as if to say i said. That in Syria Government backed airstrikes in eastern good to have reportedly killed more than two hundred seventy people since sunday the w. Hite show describes widespread destruction of civilian infrastructure in the rebel held on klav on the outskirts of damascus the u. N. Is warning that due to its on the brink of becoming a second aleppo. Billy graham the man described as the most widely heard christian evangelist in history has died aged ninety nine