Michael of well come to the conflicts in a recent report the agency has said that Civil Society is under threat across the block the report paints a poor cheap picture of the state of fundamental rights within the European Union its a mixed picture its a picture of whats working and whats not working we have to stay very vigilant in europe just like everywhere else in the world to protect the incredible institutions we develop and Second World Wars as every word in the word our foundation the idea of the European Union human rights democracy and its not Getting Better its changing we have some improvement its a very diplomatic were changing to a good changing to the bad shape. To the good in some places but right i am very concerned about the situation of human rights in europe today we have a lot to do across so many issues so many groups migrants older people at the disabled theres a huge programme of work to be done but match the challenges with the achievements but you have said that crow twenty seven t. Was not a great year in terms of respect of protection and the promotion of human and fundamental right not a great year thats an understatement now i agree it was a it was a very very challenging time it remains a challenging time take the migration crisis its still a crisis we still are not a crisis because of the migration it is the crisis of democracy in the Member States of europe its a crisis of migration policy in other words i largely agree with you its about a failure to show solidarity to risk to share the responsibility across Member States its about failure to get the basics in place in so many places weve been following the story very closely for the last two years and yesterday in some achievements but in the Bigger Picture were not there yet and in some ways were worse off at this fortress of europe it has less doors than it had previously lets argue in the speech in dublin at the institute of international and European Affairs you suggested that the european human Rights Groups act is under threat frankly you are accusing your own men states thats correct im saying that we have a threat because of unacceptable levels of abuse under resigning of pulling away from the commitments in too many places and on top of that a lack of conviction in large parts of our citizens that human rights are important for them and not just for others so thats very big project of work but i think we know where we need to go so lets look at the european political map some examples austria hungary poland islamophobia anti semitic ism hate speech again minorities. They have every day practice in these countries i dont i dont dispute with you that we have really serious and growing problems and its the job of my agency to get the data about those problems out there in the Public Domain the Actual Experience of muslims in europe the Actual Experience of jews in europe put that in front of the policymakers the Decision Makers and then challenge them but a liberal Human Rights Committee is the problem not the solution in some countries its not that simple at there is theres an enormous diversity of of willingness to make for better societies but its not just the policymakers the politicians who make our societies its also about Civil Society its also about the faith groups its the citizens themselves and a large part of our work is to engage with them and to convince them that this is something worth fighting for i will repeat my question in some countries are the governments the problem or the solution like poland for example. I just wouldnt put it that simply in some countries but far more Serious Problems than others but it ranges across all human rights that is responsible for these problems the government some even of the head of the governments part of the movements of the right radical movements and this is something after World War Two which is coming back and nobody would have believed that this could be and it is yeah but the great difference today is that we have Strong International human rights standards by which we can and must hold these people to account im worried that theres a lot of hate speech out there that goes unchallenged on prosecutors thats unacceptable and so a large part of our work is demanding that the laws in place which we did not have in place at the time of the Second World War are complied with but were getting more convenient with this since zias all these hate speeches are not anymore coming from the streets these her. Hate speeches are coming from president s from governments from politicians look at the European Union the European Union is also one of the reasons where we are listening to hate speeches and this wouldnt be possible before it is new well as legit from my eyes i also look at the European Union which is doing a good job of taking hate speech off line which is pushing back and weve seen some improvements in this regard in the last few months im not discouraged at all i see a long way ahead its a difficult its going to be a difficult pathway but i think in the end well get there with the commitment of young people in our societies the resilience of Civil Society at the increasing convergence of faith communities to do something meaningful to challenge understands that you are optimistic thats your job but lets be realistic again. Lets have a look in poland lets have a look in hungary lets have a look in france lets have a look even in germany a very successful growth of parties who are anti democratic a part of their rhetoric is the headline hate discrimination of my sexual discrimination Racial Discrimination religious discrimination these people partly are working with you. They are sitting in the European Parliament but they are also sitting in all other institutions in europe well our job is to uphold and demand respect for the system of human rights we do that were putting evidence out there in the Public Domain tackling the fake news which in large part informs some of the phenomena youre describing getting the data out there for the actual situation no muslims dont bring Sexual Violence into europe we have our own problem for example no the recent migration crisis did not bring at the semitism event in europe thats longstanding custody will be evident in deliberations and behold as a politician is in saying if the muslims bring the problems well to the extent thats being said were pushing back against us with the hard data but isnt it hypocritical that such an organization who is fighting against racism is be pilloried by countries like poland and hungary these governments are responsible that youll work is increasing ok we are an agency of the European Union which means were somewhat separate from the from the Decision Making institutions were also independent i think were very safe a position to do our job with integrity and its a hell of a job to do and its body needed right now more than ever indeed to take your own words which you meant the state is respecting human rights beliefs to the states im not going to answer that question because i dont think its helpful that we see where forever is such an information not helpful because were forever scanning the horizon of the point to a question to all your research yes which e. U. Member state is respecting human rights the least these days you can also mention two or three but it isnt information which is very important ok the response id give to you is that its neither helpful nor useful to name a particular country because there are problems everywhere and human rights is not just about civil rights and Political Rights its also about social and economic growth. Its and when you see it broadly understood like that the problems are everywhere theres no worst and by the way theres no best either theres serious efforts a lot of serious talk about these countries were you have a lot of problems where you feel that you are worried which these countries well certainly undoubtedly were concerned about the situation in poland and in hungary and a number of other states i visit those countries whenever i have the opportunity or meet with the government i meet with Civil Society i offer the tools and the experience of this agency to assist them and engage in their problems and we see some small progress in this area for example i was in hungary just a few weeks ago and i was invited by the government to send a team to the socalled transit zones these are the border points the Border Crossing points to see how a more human rights respectful system could be put in place those conversations are underway right now but i thats exactly the way our agency can make some small progress in contributing to the challenges in such places you mention counterterrorism and fundamental rights you mentioned a concern with legislation around security laws and dangerously human rights you mentioned spain for instance yes well certainly in terms of counterterrorism we have an issue right now that we have a legitimate need for Strong Security and we want to support that in a way thats respectful of human rights and doesnt compound the problems its attempting to solve and this means we have some challenging conversations we need states to slow down but at the childrens slowing down for instance taking proper care looking at the unintended consequences of actions making sure that the limits on human rights and there must be limits on human rights that they truly are necessary for the purpose thats being sought to achieve were delivering research to assist the sex of the hill yeah youre talking with the governments you explain its the governments but the things. Going on as you want to go in spain the counterterrorism law was used for example to jail artists one of the most famous cases was the arrest of two perpetrators who in a street performance used a pen best that a judge rules to be an excuse for terrorism this seems like a clear violation of the right of Free Expression everything is argued with come to terrorists sure well twenty gauge issues such as when you describe what you find in a number of countries we need the strong human rights legal analysis to challenge the practices of the state its not necessarily just the law its how the law is applied to profiling we all recognise that youve got to make choices in policing of who to stop on a street thats profiling but profiling can be respectful of human rights or it can be discriminatory and in violation of human rights and its one of the things our agency is doing is developing tools for intelligence and for Police Services so that they can avoid exactly the types of situation you gave in your example that nobodys really intervening from the political level the terror law was used in spain lets have another example by the high court now we are on the level of the high court sent thirteen hip hop artists to jail for years for what they called praise of terrorism in the song i mean whats going on in the European Union in a country like spain people are in jail because they said. Well look im singing a song you know the most important thing right now is to reignite passion about the europe of values were not an economic europe were one founded in human rights and if we can better embed that culture of bettering gauge it with the with the policy makers then exactly the type of situation youre giving will be much rarer in the future youre talking about poland we have talking about one hundred west talking about spade with talk about other countries and the research your comments your papers. Also describing countries like spain and so was the judgment what is the judgment which is so important if a person like you is judging why are you so shy. Well our function really is to gather the data so that the policymakers and the decision and the judgers courts and elsewhere can take the necessary action get the data out there do the analysis make that available its a vital function because as i said earlier if we base our Decision Making on fake news unfolds news on myth were going to end up obviously with ridiculous are you information. Youre going to mation you so the question as to what are you doing with this stuff is better put to the decision wizard who has been joining something with you in for me ultimately a human rights body like ours with only advisory functions is only as good as those who make the decision with my you giving you the governance of the e. U. Member states the e. U. Institutions but in all of their knowledge you insist you understand the paradox understand the problem you are bringing information to countries which you are criticized and you demand that these countries will react but they dont want to react they are very happy as they are im not going to give europe a clean bill of health the problems are serious the issues are grave but i do see small chinks of light i see small improvements i gave an example of better oversight of Intelligence Services here were having valuable conversations with governments about how to put in independent oversight thats achievement ive seen refugees children locked in cages when i first went to the hotspots in greece a couple of years ago theyre not in cages anymore thats an improvement its the thousand small steps that are making an important contribution to a better european future. Said that what happened in spain was an internal affair also what you describe by elation of human rights in a member state can be and fair and it a human rights are not an internal affair where sounds like a website so mr york is wrong no im framing this in terms of human rights and by by that i mean that spain and all the other e. U. Amber states are bound to human rights commitments which transcend the state and i and its very important that that the issues of human rights are surveilling motion a violation of rights only member state in this internal affair or not it depends on the context for purposes of the e. U. And how its structured it may well be an accurate statement for for purposes of human rights compliance no raises issues under International Human rights law so lets look at another important country france the french emergency law has been replaced with the anti terror law the new legislation which went into effect last october gives Security Forces the authority to shut places of worship with out warrants that means without actual proof religious freedom is one of the most important principles of modern humanist societies how does this go hand in hand i think its very important to speak with religious communities about that because again its you its not necessarily the law thats the problem its the application of the law and we need to speak to them and listen to the extent to which there are practices that they consider violations of their rights and in that way we form a consensus about the actual practice of the government of the parliaments who are deciding these restrictions i once ran a Human Rights Commission in an e. U. Member state and i was i was struck by the extent to which its not the face of the law thats the problem its the way in which its applied and the manner of which richard supply can violate a right as easily as be respectful of the right thats why its important to generate the evidence figure out what the principles that apply and i think that its not like in reality of the state of law. We cannot make decisions without the hard data but whats the situation is and how it impacts affected communities you can really run or you can arrest people today in france if he seems to be a terrorist also without warrants. If you can the law is allowing this ok and then but in terms of a question what are you asking me to respond to. What is your reaction on this well my reaction is as i say the our job is to advise the e. U. So that the actions of the states be that the laws are the application of the laws of human rights compliant but were not some overall judge we dont have that capacity were not set up in that manner can somebody be trill. Being an advocate for human rights no i were circling not neutral you trilogies typically taking the side of an oppressor in the context of human rights i want to quote again you your report im journalist says about hungary in hungary there were Civil Society reports that Public Officials continue to use libel and defamation laws to silence criticism from citizens and journalists. What are the consequences of the support something changed well we are making sure that the debates get triggered around europe on the basis of that report there was a discussion yesterday in the European Parliament in which the report was cited extensively triggering conversations about the report in budapest in other capitals. By that means we give Civil Society the tools for it to push back against unacceptable practices and were providing the basis the Knowledge Base as i mentioned earlier for other states and for those with influence at to engage the unacceptable behaviors of the countries you dont have the freedom of speech as it has to be and we choosing for example countries like turkey. What is the difference what we have to be just as hard on ourselves as we do with any other state outside the European Union and again as i say thats thats a thats a job for the entire of the European Political Community not just for a Single Agency which is providing the data and the evidence so that those hard words can be spoken and i see those hard words spoken increasingly. Again. Is the situation Getting Better or not at the moment were in a bad situation but i do see a change of light towards the future and why why because i see more and more governments in this european your union. All and socalled sort of economic rights the dimension of human rights we havent had a chance to speak much of in this conversation i see it in young people it could sound condescending but genuinely from traveling around europe meeting with youth groups and with childrens groups i see solutions being offered i see a willingness to to go over the divisions too and i see more and more government power which are representing all the issues were talking about certainly there are populist tendencies out there against which we have to push very hard but we can do that as i said earlier by shattering myth by dispelling these crazy stories on the basis of which people are being rallied by delivering for People Better tackling inequality by showing that we can have fair societies based on human rights and there are so many other dimensions by the way also you see and as i said i think your earlier in faith communities a greater desire to come together to resist these these tendencies islam a phobia is today in several countries a dick liberation of governance i think is an official aeration certainly hatred against muslims and patterns of discrimination as we see from our surveys are very worrying Something Like forty percent how can a country still be a member in the union in the European Union if a country is not anymore respecting human and fundamental rights how does this go on what is the message that such a country is still. Representing the fundamental idea of human rights ok well first human rights is much broader than the framing of our discussion its also about putting food on the table delivering health care we have to make broad assessments about human rights compliance taking all those dimensions into place that said i dont disagree with you we do need stronger mechanisms and tools in europe to hold states to account we hold them to account before they enter but once theyre in the club it doesnt work so well and thats an area that isnt receiving attention right now in the context of strengthening the rule of Law Framework to do something where the mansion that before lets look at the migration issue in march twenty sixth the e. U. Signed a deal with turkey intended to keep back the refugee flow i mean Just International says turkey quote is not a safe place for g. s struggling the meet peoples basic needs the turkish authorities of failing to ensure that refugees and Asylum Seekers are able to live in dignity Human Rights Watch calls it a problematical deal has the e. U. Abandon its principles in order to keep away refugees we have a great deal to do we have to be a more welcoming europe and not for everybody but for those who need International Protection once they get here and by the way we ate people to get here in the mediterranean by a dramatic level of sea rescues which i think is under acknowledged but still we have too many walls once they get here they have to be treated with respect were still not there and we still dont have that respect for sharing of the responsibility so this remains a very grave issue of human rights sounds good is not the reality of the European Union today another country which is resolving the influx of refugees is libya Human Rights Watch says the u. S. Tries to prevent Asylum Seekers and irregular migrants coming by shifting responsibility for migration control onto. Huntress i would say the u. Borders notability libya in ways that expose people to human rights abuse do you accept display i accept that a much better job could be done of honoring the human rights of people trying to get into europe that does not mean letting everyone of them in it mean abiding in those and going to be closer to us and we know consciously that these peoples are in libya in a failed state. We agree that these people are living in the failed state only with the argument we dont want to have them in europe our human rights guarantees extend to what we do outside europe and that has to be held in mind regardless of whether its turkey or libya or any other country its the same degree of attention for the basic human rights and dignity of those people but then as i say i really want to insist once they get here we have to do a better job of protecting their human rights that is no less important which country is on your mind when you say Something Like that what i have in mind actually is the intolerable burden weve placed on greece and italy weve left them to deal with this in a manner which is is is impossible. And where is all of europe was needed to resolve the problem including towards respectfully receiving a fair number of people from greece and italy which is still not taken place now where hes we greatly since this agency has come into existence nothing has improved and the contrary human rights have to tolerate it and i wouldnt accept that at all since as agencies come into existence we have adopted in europe a charter of fundamental rights which is hardwired protection of human rights into policymaking and i see that on a day to day basis how the outcome is better because of the charter since its agency came into existence we have evidence on the situation in europe of a quality that youll find nowhere else in europe we know about the incidence of violence against women because of the service weve done the incidence of anti semitism the instances of islamophobia sand if i may finish we have also seen that data has fed into better policies so i understand we know more but the situation didnt. 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