Well i want to welcome to conflict zone thank you jim thanks for having me where you have your new president saying that he was inaugurating a new democracy this is a man who invented seventy years has shown no inclination to promote democracy in any form whatsoever whats to suggest that hes going to change and i think. Thats a very correct steam to say that he didnt show any inclination to promote democracy what im talking about is a man that has been a speaker of parliament who showed and even handedness in parliament for the tempi for the time he was one were talking here of a man that lost elections and was happy to accept the results therefrom were talking of a man whos been individually named and sanctioned by the e. U. First in two thousand and two when the European Council expressed serious concerns among about Human Rights Violations by the government of zimbabwe among two hundred seventy three other people absolutely collective responsibility yes going to councils back was extended in two thousand and four and two thousand and nine they accused him with them and then god work as a member of the government of engaging in activities that seriously undermine democracy respect for human rights and the rule of law seriously undermine democracy that doesnt sound good for the future thats that you know hes seen a lot thats thats your parlance which would have been a play to. It isnt but when it attempted were talking two hundred seventy three members of the establishment so youre basically saying that theres an army there all of this mob and military forces should because the top iraqi or then well youre saying the bureaucrats are saying the general is that were there were undermining democracy in the famous reza make it already does it went along with the system doing its best to extinguish democracy home here and of the narrative thats not correct whats what so everybody else got it wrong well go around the u. S. Which also sanctioned him got it right everybody got what they work in tandem no you know so misunderstood. Thats correct the point im making is yes they way Human Rights Violations that starts goes without saying and yes were in mission of building but yes weve taken responsibility was weak went and put in place a new constitution you have a say than any responsibility to because nobodys been brought to justice but because its not a cause because of the cause of course its because of course to what we have a new acts which is coming police of National Reconciliation where this all of these matters will be dealt with so we do all really yet National Recognition of healing yes i think also going to deal with the most serious allegations made against mr goh which came in a two thousand and two un report to the Security Council it called him the key strategist of an elite group involved in illicit Diamond Trading if you read that when i read the reports and that report is full of conjecture and innuendo eleanore fact was wherever they were simply calling him the benjamin if you read into an embarrassment for an investigation what investigation then you enjoy these allegations what allegations that you are the big men of all have a whole bunch of them report to the networks which he was a senior figure made money through what they called a variety of criminal activities including theft embezzle meant diversion of public funds and devaluation of goods smuggling false invoicing nonpayment of taxes kickbacks to Public Officials and brian. If you had read that reports as you want to pretend you did you would not have a chance ok ok as much as you did but these vitalistic theres no specific theres no specific allegation what you simply say is that when i was in a certain or tell he was the bad man it was was the speaker of parliament was the best man for the government of zimbabwe government of zimbabwe thats what the thats what the report says but theres Nothing Specific the government investigators here not even worth investigating hes above the law anyway so why if the if why but if they know if theyre in the congo or lost some damage or lost money to nangarhar or allegedly they should its for them to investigate whats theirs but would investigate its what has been demonstrated nobody is what its done so thats ok then if they came from the same democratic republic of congo i was in a fine i was in it so this is not theyre not im saying its not our responsibility is to use money to investigate things that happened in the congo when its not as well as the man in the congo if there most anybody because the accusations are not on when and where they are on im out in multiple operations the many governments organise many governments so let them investigate mr miller do you expect zimbabweans never mind the International Community simply to gloss over all this instead of seeking a detailed accounting of what took place or dont you care or dont you simply dont care or dont just sit there on the rose petals which are which mr man under way in the in the generals are being thrown i mean being fitted with the been fitted with rose petals right now they are heroes including the generals are talking about all were involved in all of this that youre talking about so it means muslims are happy with the situation the people that have had these you are really you know were happy on the borders of iraq when we come on to that illuminate lets talk about the Public Theater of the last ten days to talk about here mr mugabe wasnt pushed out in order to bring in democracy thousands of p. F. Had been perfectly happy trashing democracy for thirty five years the thing that brought change was the turbot realisation that mr. He was going to bring his wife into the top job and that would have upset all the vested interests in your country people who counted on. Coming in to protect their interests and their secrets you know couldnt now couldnt risk of that now could you risk that not us of course what people cannot risk is somebody who they thought would be unstable in who appeared in behaved in a stable way to take over the controls of power in zimbabwe it would establish it would have destabilized the whole country it would have to serve as the region that was the concern thats not the view of did the most with us a veteran of the liberation struggle he was close to mugabe for fifty years he was quite clear the army intervened he said to save zanu p. F. Not the country but he was you know this must not turn out just because there is a member of the opposition who also is with vested interests in the veteran of the liberation in the sonata he says member of the of something is wrong he says the armed forces in saturdays opinions and yet he says the armed forces made up of zanu p. F. Members he said not democrats intent on are sharing in a pluralistic system not democrats intent on pushing in a pluralistic system so in other words forget about democracy not just isnt it in other words for just a sense because it is a bitter said orme and thats what im saying lets not forget for democracy lets forget about what a member of the opposition would say again as an cuts they also go in saying that the movie set forward of even at the swearing in ceremony there were people were taken a look at them because the president of botswana for one in karma he said it pretty clearly i dont see why i should wish him mugabe well if he cared nothing for his own people why should i care for him and then there were the crowds that booed the Police Commissioner general gus the ensuring there were calls for him to step down you think gave you talk about rose petals for everybody its not rose positon this im sure you didnt actually check the relationship between the people of zimbabwe and the Police Commissioner general the generals the rest of the army or the. Of the city secure kratz and the general in the room and with the jury why do you think the police were made to stand down why are they wanted right now as im talking to your starting joint patrol patrols with the army because the police were not trusted by the people they were not trusted by the army they were not trusted by the support they were trusted by only president mugabe why because the person that was second in command of the police is his cousin and and the war point was to serve god that president s mr rohani what is disturbing to many people to be in your country plenty of silence at the new president is no different from the old one you take is warning about pluralism and political opposition those who oppose us will park and park he said they will continue to park but the zanu p. F. Train will roll on ruling and ruling while they park again its all about the pasty theres nothing about the crash last thats a misinterpretation of what actually thats a direct quote of what you said yes but i would tell you any court get taken out of his context loses many you think this man is ever going to allow the barking dogs of the opposition to sweep him out of power. If they win not a chance if they win you would if they really would its when uses the backing phrase its not only about opposition its its even included grace what you are simply saying is when im focused on Something Like a train or a locomotive every job which runs around alongside the tracks can bark and bark but the locomotive does not stop its called the locomotive is not the country zanu p. F. As far as hes concerned he is a honeymoon live via a call for true force transformation within the country three years falls it has its a miracle from thirty five years its trash we made mistakes trash democracy were trash now cant we didnt trust democrats but yes we made mistakes and yes we messed up the economy state last year we disaster whatever whatever line you turn youre in. Very friendly guy youre a nice jovial sort of falling over the edge for whatever line you turn you know full well the system and god is hostage to the brutality of the brutal record of zanu p. F. Hes been our theory is period as head of Central Intelligence in the mid 1980s coincided with the most brutal of all mugabes massacres the socalled cooler killings in which up to twenty thousand from the in the billy tribe were killed disappear he was denied any role but actually the state controlled by the way a chronicle reported at the time that he compared to citizens to bugs cockroaches that is such an epidemic the government needed to bring in d. Day a little thing to get rid of the actual thing so its worth it yeah i hear i had you now give me a chance to respond to you first the thing is we way in a very intimate very formative years of our country mistakes were made and the excuses massacre not even other times and it doesnt excuse him one of the he says and simply say we made mistakes so thats an admission that he made mistakes was number one number two during that period when he was many sort of security he quest coming to poland into account for his actions all the time with a very robust parliament at that time and they were distant things yes ministry of crimes this was these were parking offenses for which you know to quell or pay a fine this was murder on a grand scale there were mistakes call it mistakes and there will be just an understatement in history this is a man or not mistakes its not its a slow made mistakes that is stalin made mistakes you know there were mass murderers this was mass will last will diminish it no will of the militia no will last we lost people we lost is about wins and. For u. K. I was for it too its unfortunate that it happened but in the formative years of any nation if we go back to the history of britain who find that there were pages there were people that died it does not it doesnt it doesnt clear people it doesnt make it any better but the fact still remains in a formative years of a nation things will happen which notions must happen now in the dark should not have happened mr and i with violence stamped into your partys d. N. A. And thats already been proved yet again in the last week the very day the new president was sworn in the former finance minister Ignatius Trumbo was handed over to the police by the military who had beaten him up severely and while he was held in custody and. Were two testimonies total emissions trouble is that the minister talking about salvation in these various vision told what he himself in his testimony in chief he never said was when he was president wrong is he wrong you know he says he was tortured yes the minute they did it in the activist lawyer is wrong because the actual person didnt allege and didnt tell me and i didnt beat him up no they didnt get him anywhere but you know in the sense that youve investigated you never said that he was here this refers to fight in court one for the court record isnt it when when somebody says surprise and off if thats what we go by thats all noise why we making it up as his lawyer said it was a very brutal and took only in way dealing with opponents if he says that that i can accept very much so and i tweeted about it myself that this is not the way were to do this but so thought the country created a few weeks ago yeah you calling us from going out but not. Let me finish the man who is now president had to flee for his life a couple of weeks ago and it doesnt and thats an unfortunate set of gay she isnt its not furnish i dont like him why dont i see any of the politicians had to flee him i dont know i said i dont accept you calling him a countryman but i would say that it was it wasnt conventional it was wrong it shouldnt have happened that way but when it starts it isnt and you know right before you is not suited a thug isnt it time you came out whats been going on in your country all these years apart from just. Trying to get out of it by calling it a few mistakes and meet it that people deserve Something Better than p. F. Or that people really dont know people deserve what they vote for exactly thats what does that what democracy about it if People Choose an appeal then that deserves an opinion isnt it are you going to prescribe leaders was an all for prison for the peoples republic they made a choice theyll make a choice in july or so theyll make a choice again with a chosen to be if thats what they deserve i put it to troy smith who was mugabes Vice President for ten years yeah yeah that under mugabe zimbabwe became a byword for corruption murder child cities and torture she didnt argue with that she didnt know she said its a fact whats know again when you quote opposition we was good she was going to visit she was with him for ten years yeah but then Vice President by then but then if you had said sorry for any of these mergers corruption atrocity you know its too much corruption is there and its a problem there you go ive made an admission made us not to the scale you want to say things happened as i told you nine hundred eighty we shouldnt be in the one hundred eighty which shouldnt have happened there you go you love those understatements things happened no these were murders and massacres carried out this was brutal brutal violence and you know it was a satanist it was things that happened when im saying but if you are playing it down well they want you know where youre assuming they were told this way when. They were dissidents one to their way tory so we actually kidnapped and killed there with there were some what age of infrastructure there were elections violence especially around the point thousand and eight am i explain what i mean by things happened so the response to the response to that was disproportionate yes and thats why im saying things happened because things happen on both sides and thats the phrase i. Is it would not raise temperatures in ethnic tension in zimbabwe in china exactly i think what youre trying to do in january on the voice of america you were asked why your party hasnt been more successful in improving lives for the majority of zimbabwe yes three and a half decades. And you replied its a matter of time its not going to happen overnight of course when the end of it and there are you trying to and its never like the seventy years and you say its a matter of time see im not going to have another one i want people to spin saying this status of in years mantra they will be held they pretend that theres not nothing good happened in zimbabwe when when who electrification went around when people when they were a lot of educated people when schools were built when the provincial was president for all spittles were built with the university only sort of the university and now weve got sixteen things positive things happened in zimbabwe you know if you look tonight because nobody denies you ok its only its not its your education but in the last not achievements its not a wasted thirty seven years that you see but as for the economy you know the man i work you certainly dont want to buy one go yes im sorry but it will certainly set records but they want the records you wanted and they your policies grotesque mismanagement inflation peaked around three thousand and eight two hundred thirty one million percent congratulations thank you very much to all that record but why because you the west undermined our economy its the worse off for well not you know were not talking about you know your staggering in terms of course made in capital wed love to do this well i give you that but lets not lets not completely dismiss the role of the substance plate because the whole point was to bring down this moment economy and but that is a problem government and its how it worked to some extent but the only thing that didnt happen is the coming out of the dark. Marias ration now is running at more than fourteen percent in just two output is less than ten percent of g. D. P. Compared to twenty five percent one thousand nine hundred ninety s. Nobodys under it in the world the world before the new president its a lot of work fast which he has to embark on right now thats why its a day to have to hit the ground running and the first top Government Official to make this admission when he was Vice President he went to china and he made admissions of them but was twenty years behind in development and when somebody of that stature and that level makes that admission its a very important admission and because of that its not underwriting the trust before him there are plenty of signs that your public wants justice and these last few days plenty of zimbabweans have been speaking out because they feel theyre able to say they have to no more awful Small Business owner in harare he reacted pretty badly to the news that mugabe and his family have already secured immunity from prosecution he said why do people think that once a crook is out its now ok for them to keep their empire why even overthrowing them if were not going to reclaim money and assets could die in bad so made working one of the wealthy suburbs he said let them live peacefully in zimbabwe but they must find out how much they have if its a lot maybe take half forward must retire or one of your Party Officials mugabe should be prosecuted and sent to jail for a long time he said if i meet him one day ill give him a blow in the street he squandered my life. You really think people except this is the issue isnt it is enough for the people but i can tell you this that our constitution does not grant immunity post incumbents so president mugabe was immune to prosecution when he was in office now how the new government will process this whole thing or has it this immunity or Something Else because. Its only binding us for is their own good will and the gentleman the gentleman ness is concerned hes already been told that he can keep his assets he and his family and get at least ten million george children by mugabes principle told the Times Newspaper last week that the expresident had been assured his assets were secured and which assets of those ok they own the largest landowners in the country they own a deadly two private schools they control the running of an orphanage they own a twenty five bedroom house in harare known as the blue roof along with a Second Property in the same city and the three story home in the country they have a two point four million house in the center and suburb of johannesburg an apartment in hong kong and a room and also to have property and in malaysia and singapore not bad actually not half of lebanon is right underneath all that not bad but and no consultation on this shoddy little deal that allows him not actually to see when the referendum be beyond the law what precedent do you want to see ocracy did you did did you really want a referendum on that or this thing was negotiated and its about and celebrate they didnt care they didnt mind what it was they wanted wanted our lives why dont you dont have a democracy talk of new democracy well think well no one is beyond also do you think democracy is a blood test amiss and in the end of indigenous as well as a Little Britain its not if i took over yes what of the office of the us but not youre not the type of democracy where you would think well lets go back and read and rock to temperatures and oh no lets not have any justice i dont know what is definition of justice to what additional justice brought to account. From massive fraud and from crimes. And war and people are being brought to account who well who use them yeah but you raise the defense minister mcabee reza the finance minister a few minutes ago what about the man who run the show well the man the man who ran the show unfortunately well fortunately for him but zimbabwe needed one and we and indeed this was the best solution rather than our circumstances teamed up with any shortages you know that the energy seem if you have a referendum if you have a referendum on this i would tell you ninety percent of the bubbly and would endorse this deal the opposition. Sources concede unconstitutional yes well they have quite a few things about which is around the shelter if they can challenge it isnt it thats the whole essence of having a Constitutional Court that would line judges private judges who can we can overturn it if its unconstitutional lets go thats the whole point thats the whole point of having institutions are independent and what you dish out is independent grace mugabi she gets seventy five thousand dollars a year for life when we have is that you have you think thats fair everything you think you can have an opinion is wrong think she paid tax on anyone. Do you have a problem with people getting pension i didnt set that i wasnt dollars in the country our point as the elements are in telling him. You arent genuinely is respect your constitution because our constitution says those things should happen when when the president is of his or in a Vice President s office if theyve said to him that his one term so theres no answer shame to these shoddy little deals how do you have a diversion from a question you know i dont im not ashamed of my cause you should hold it in there and thats what the off of the even the president took to uphold the constitution so were not a shift of focus today is one of the best in the world and will be rated very highly. If the elections take place next year as they are should you to do so your party can hardly campaign on its record killing thirty seven years of corruption thirty seven years of blood on its hands and now this deal this immunity deal presumably to buy mr mugabe silence because he has capabilities that when you take a lot of people what are you going to him what a very interesting feeling should anyone vote for you even when you have won a very interesting future look at what your fluted have told you that we have what more than sixty percent outreach and coverage in intrastate of told me Everything Else that we have done ive told you about our Literacy Rate ill tell you about the was because weve built weve got a lot to come before i will have told we were resettled people weve got a lot to combine with but not human rights no human rights oh yeah we want that doesnt mean we have a lets not react or may not we have we have a lot to improve on that twenty we have a lot improve and this is a bit you know the m. D. C. Has got violence to you know the Vice President in the m. D. C. Was charged if you if you weeks ago on both sides when she was in the m. D. C. Office of senegal when she was in the m. D. C. She was bashed that again by batons its unfortunate what a culture very well is around us which you want to do you advocate and whatever did this violence during this period give us give give us some credit from the thirty for the fourteenth with i mean after this point where we didnt even see it is over and this has been over a period of time that man one of you had thirty seven years of credit thanks very much for being uncovered so thank you for having me tell you how bad the bit above. The bit because. Eleven. Eleven. Eleven eleven. Eleven. When cities are engulfed by the. More. And costly protective measures. For. Our future fifteen minutes on. Meet the germans new and surprising aspects of noise and culture joining. 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