Independence republican left on the city council here really now admit that the movement has bitten off way more than it can chew. Out for bush welcome to conflicts of thank you a new country has been born those were your words big words couple of days ago you spoke too soon and you know because the republicans been proclaimed and newly born baby and small its fragile and we have to make it grow a baby from which the leaders have already fled to belgium to escape possible arrest thats hardly a glorious start to it is that well we might see again something we hadnt seen in europe for decades. Which is politicians looking for a political asylum within europe so thats a development we should follow closely but im curious a start to your to your republic is it shows the nature of the Spanish State and how something which has been eminently democratic which has been done to respond to a popular mandate Something Like that is absolutely questioned and persecuted by the Spanish Powers so it shows the nature of your leaders that the first sign of trouble they were worried well obviously we need to pursue an International Agenda and the best place to do that is brussels and this isnt pursuing the International Agenda this is running the way it lets lets lets call it what it is this wasnt planned was it that they would go off on some trip to consult foreign powers this was to get away from the possibility of being arrested was that well thats the sole reason well obviously the prosecutor came out yesterday and he stated all the accusations the offenses which hang on these people now one of them is rebellion which could mean up to thirty years and jail the other one is sedition up to fifteen years etc and you have and that was a surprise because they hadnt considered that well thats a bit disproportionate isnt it for somebody who has been democratically elected who has organized a vote and afterwards tries to deliver on that vote now for once that politicians deliver we might as well respect them if they really hadnt considered that possibility they did the obvious around the state would level charges not that it has done yet but its considering ok now the question is why is half of the Catalan Government here in town in barcelona why is the other half in brussels obviously the half which is which is in brussels is pursuing the International Agenda the catalan republic has to be regular perfect you know theres not much they didnt intend to go they got frightened they got cold feet maybe ran away what commander leads the battle for. You in the middle of the battle what kind of example is that to everybody i mean there they are telling everybody to resist democratically and they run as fast as their legs will carry them well preps we should interview your views and try to find your view because you you seem to know very well but those people are thinking why theyre doing these things im trying to give you my vision of this from within and what i know is that there is right now two people in jail there accused of sedition which was something about which for instance Mahatma Gandhi was accused in nineteen twenty two and these guys face penalties of up to thirty years in jail and this is happening we are having Political Prisoners in spain now why should we have active politicians in jail when they can they can be in brussels working for the recognition of the catalan republic thats all consulting lawyers about how they stand theres half of the cattle in government thats doing exactly that they are staying here and theyre consulting lawyers to see how can they can face all these accusations and penalties but if you dont think they should have what we now get for well maybe but this is how it is right here we have king it up as you go along. Well we have half of the cattle in government abroad working for the cattle republic the other half staying here facing whatever rests might fall on them so i think thats quite a logical and understandable behavior isnt it. Perhaps things are happening in an unexpected way and then you have to take decisions on the run obviously you mean and you cant foresee absolutely everything not everything can be planned meanwhile the Spanish Government has outmaneuvered you as in that its taking control of the regions of ministration with very little opposition when the grassroots support seems to be ebbing away and that the Spanish Government has actually bowed down to International Pressure and pressure from other parties because its plans were and we saw that i mean we heard greg hoy speaking like we could go and its plans were clearly not calling for an election and finally it had to call for an election and its a knowledge that the solution has to pass through democratic procedures so it has actually acknowledged the Spanish Government has actually acknowledged that by sheer use of force and by sheer power they wont solve the question so thats a development and we we read it in a positive way it puts them in the driving seat though doesnt it well i mean you say you have a state a state has been born but there they are theyre setting the date for the elections people are coming forward saying yes theyll take part in the elections Pro Independence groups are saying theyll take part in the elections. Two leading catalan unions the u. G. G. And the c c o which is supported the referendum they now back the elections as well and they oppose any what was distance on the street as a party we will run for elections obviously we love elections we love the ballot boxes we defended them on october the first with our bodies and citizens who followed this referendum with their trying to help people. About and they were being clobbered and they were being beaten up of the police the elderly ladies whole families theyre defending the vote so were not going to go against the vote were going to go to vote and well try and even if its the Spanish State thats managing because it now acquires a plebiscite tarion kind of sight to it this vote will be a vote to show who has the numbers and who has the majority so we accepted they threw a glove to us we accept that challenge we have to do it and we are democratic obviously weve pursued this always in a democratic manner were not going to lose that quality and maintaining all the time the fiction that you have an independent state that it set up and its in active whatever you call it a fiction moment well im sure your question you are taking what i heard from from one of the political scientists at the Autonomous University here are real bad to males who said yesterday i dont know if the same quote other scientists who say other things actually says i dont know if the separatists can keep up this fiction of being a real independent republic for much longer well you see that sounds very much like the Spanish Governments view because they say exactly that i wouldnt call it a fiction in the sense that when little mania was declared for instance the independence of lithuania it looked pretty much like thats it took one year and a half to get an important recognition more than when you to get any recognition at all from other countries they were it was a very different situation lithuania had been illegally annexed and it was accepted that it only had expired the soviet union yes completely different situ even more so even more so i mean obviously in that case the United States were kind of backing whatever was happening and even so it took more than one year and a half for them to recognize little ania so this kind of fiction went on for a year and a half and it wasnt any action and meanwhile well i mean thats an opinion is respectable but meanwhile the red army was there in fact its the. There for ten years the red army occupied the television the Administration Offices of lithuania so it was pretty much the same you could have set there nobody recognized lithuania the European Union said it wouldnt recognize it they they backed gorbachev and in that in those times lets say lets come back to catalonia not because we know this is about to look this is an important these International Examples help us there all the Different Things they help us to realize that its not so strange whats happening here is not so awkward its something very common when newly born country is born it is fragile its unavoidable and we are fighting against Spanish Power its a very well established state its a kingdom has been there for years and it has an army as a navy it has a Financial Assets obviously its hard obviously obviously we have a very little creature and weve got to cater for it and we go to nourish it december twenty one and youre going to take part in the elections that the Spanish Government will be managing are we going to see a continuation of some of the pretty questionable methods used by your movement before the the referendum im thinking of attempts to intimidate and pressure those who didnt agree with you but we can see that before the election weve never seen yours and can you give mean exactly for example give you a concrete example your d ballot member of the Catalan Socialist Party the p. S. C. Which was against the referendum. He described on facebook the kind of pressure and intimidation that he had suffered for opposing the referendum they called me a quisling he said a turncoat a sellout a coward a wimp and a traitor theyve told me that im a bad cattle and a moron but im a display im despicable im a disgusting faggot you proud of that sort of thing not at all this sort of democracy novell unleashed let me bring you my cellphone and show you of the comments i get there are hundreds of them hundreds of them call me things like that or even worse i mean of course its crazy people all around especially in the times of the global the Global Networks but i think. Im sol has not suffered physically from anybody he said has not been attacked but this is intimidation straight out intimidation how would you compare that for instance to the one thousand people who were injured during the referendum and took over the first who were brutalized not by any crazy people who were brutalized by the state police and by the Spanish Military Police they attacked just in barcelona twenty eight voting station they have apologized for the violence who has they want to avoid not know and repeal laws and re camillo ok the Spanish Governments representatives and you have to know youre here apologized for ok said he could not help but regret and apologize on behalf of the officers who intervene yes but a horde of the opposite ok so. Does the apology mean that that justified. Thats a question you have to know to them not just say not a bit to not just the right thing obvious knowledge eyes so but they did it and apart from that they have two people in jail for their ideas theyre being accused of sedition again call it Political Prisoners how welsh would you call it but im talking about the pressure the intimidation nuria marine mare of catalonia second you know her very well to us must be telling she complained to president expresident more about the pressure being put on her and her colleagues she said i told him what a lot of people are thinking a lot of my colleagues are having a rough time putting mayors in the crosshairs wont fix anything itll just add fuel to the fire she said yes look who is being beaten up whos being put in jail whos being prosecuted was being who had to go to exile now youre talking about people who are still there theyre in office i thought they were there a consultant there actually powers one of them going into exile theyre going to do it so yes they have to pursue an International Agenda thats what governments in exile do exactly that they are they run away to do the well they cant do it here because theyll be put in jail probably like so many other people have been. Dealt with so. I i think of course any excess on any side has to be put forward has to be condemned and we do it but lets face it who has the power. And whos whos whos preventing people from voting whos preventing people from deciding something and once they decide it was preventing that decision from taking place or what did you expect senate on our government to do they have a mandate as a legally elected got a question of expectations and a question of justice but they have a man about to talk about just as not make it look like hes got not going to be very serious about this very serious talk about proportion and justice and what im saying is the Spanish Government has never been proportionate has never been fear now you dont think they would trigger article one five do what is necessary to defend the constitution well unfortunately we feared they would do it but you know what article one five five is about the International Press your colleagues called it the Nuclear Button that was imposing direct rule that in whatever elections took place in catalonia before thats ruling a place without going through the ballot box they offered mr putin will a chance to address the Senate Last Week when he chose not they offered to set up a commission on constitutional reform you didnt want that your foreign minister said it was just a distraction from the legitimate demands of the cattle and people they said they talked to you just set aside the gun that you were holding to their head which was your declaration of independence but you wouldnt do that going to the senate to be due to be shouted at thats not a very how do you know they were in. Yes ive been there i was i was in madrid for four years one whole legislature and thats where they used to do to me when i spoke clearly so imagine the catalan president going there for that put them on offered as you know offer talks. And he suspended the declaration of independence or october tenth in order that there could be holding talks with the Spanish Government but it was only when the international taken off the tour the International Mediation he offered it and accepted the Spanish Government didnt want to sit at the table so there has been constant offers to talk about this since two thousand and seven first with a statute of autonomy it was completely cancelled. By the Constitutional Court who as you know is a highly politicized court then the financial deal the catalan president went to madrid to try and negotiate a financial deal a financial deal the door was slammed on his face and then we offered to talk about the referendum and the greek referendum it was impossible once and again i was there in madrid we offered it sixteen times this according to finance minister of oil who was that right there said no were not going to hold a vote on thats just about how do you solve a question of political influence true why does the merit alone. Whos been highly critical of your declaration talk about you advancing at a canny karzi pace after what she calls your mistaken reading of the results of the catalan election process your speed has been the result of partisan interests ahead long dash that has been consummated with a declaration of independence that doesnt have the support of a majority of cattle perhaps because she belongs to a Different Party might perhaps because she is not in favor of pursuing the freedom of catalonia perhaps because shes ruling the city in correlation with a socialist who approved and who wrote with marianne of the holy and who agreed to decree article one five five which is imposes direct rule on bars on barcelona in catalonia as a whole perhaps because she is in that line and she holds different ideas but youre asking me but lets pick up if you want to be going to have an interview with the mayor barcelona you asked for an interview with her but youre asking us and i will tell you our view yes because of their point about the speed of this drive for independence the reason was clear was that youve known that at least since june when the Catalan Center for opinion studies gave you an unpleasant wake up call it said that only about forty one percent of catalans looked like voting for independence and how many against. Doesnt say forty one percent and only forty only forty one percent would vote for independents what they said in june less than forty one percent against and in between you have the underside of what you saw read all the facts but you saw it with but you saw that your support was waning and you thought we were if we dont was growing up going to happen its not going to happen so you rushed things. You rush things weve been in this for seven years now perhaps some of the International Opinion and attention has not been here for seven years constantly but it was seven years ago that we started this process there were some consultations here nonbinding nobody could tension of that in spain and madrid after that we asked for the financial deal nobody listened to that after that we hold we held a government consultation nonbinding the result was very clear in favor of independence so weve been doing with his mind was in favor of independence of them in twenty fifteen separate is parties won the most seats here but only forty eight percent of the how many of the unionist parties went and when you tell me you tell me thirty nine percent those are the difference was really quite remarkable and lets look at the polls in line you know the undecided parties who are for selfdetermination but not for independents lets lets play up all this and then i was slain anything lets look at the polls in the last few days both show your Independence Movement with less support than the unis one poll in el pais has fifty five percent against the declaration of independence forty one percent favor another poll for sigma das still has the prounion this to head of you by forty three point four to forty two point five less than one percent you studied all the right surveys and i can bring to you some different surveys and opinion polls if you wish but lets go to the actual voting when people vote they decided on independence in favor of necessity to vote by ninety percent against a ten percent percentage youre asking me about zen or im asking more than percent mortons three points more three percent more than those who decided for breakfast in the u. K. Thousand matter when its already so x. In britain over forty three percent is the actually thats exactly the issue nobody nobody questions breck said even of the percentage of those who voted for separating from the european this only difference is the law but it was a legal resident it was in my. Can just listen reservoir stefano it will be wonderful to be able to express myself and say more than one sentence out of the clear as if. Bracks it was voted for by thirty eight percent of the british now here we had forty two percent of catalans voting for independence is that valid why isnt that valid why is that in one case and not in our case your figures a rope fifty two percent voted for brits no im talking about the census in both cases as you are talking about the sense im talking about the actual vote well we can percent of the referee or census people want to compare vote to vote then at the actual referendum and its fifty two percent against ninety percent that vote to vote if you compare the same things lets compare the same ninety percent with one side not taking part ok but they were invited let me remind of a small detail you had a ballot i went there i voted like any other citizen who wanted to vote and you had the yes option you had no option and you could choose in fact there were hundreds of thousands of people who voted no to independent so not only was it possible it was followed by hundreds of thousands of people now that made up only ten percent so you of the layering of the mandate which the mayor of bus alone that among others is contesting youve youve got why is she contesting the mandate if she went to vote she voted. She said half the battle is like shes very good with it now how can you go in vote to a binding referendum because the Catalan Government said it was binding it passed a law saying it was binding and how it was binding and then you go to vote and you say thats not binding and youre not going to obey your own vote its our opinion thats a bit bizarre isnt interpret i know thats why im doing something or lets look and lets look at the opinions of the rest of the world since youre the audience who fredricka who are consulting with them at the moment. And tony attention on the president of the European Parliament couldnt have spelled it out more clearly no one in europe will recognise an independent catalonia. Junkfood younger also pour cold water on the enterprise were not in favor of letting europe develop so that tomorrow wed have ninety five Member States twenty its in the us lets go back this is clear enough isnt that they want to recognize state thats why were going for this youll go in for recognition but there isnt any of the mud survey United States is a clear European Union exactly aside from exactly exactly you got it it always carries wheat anywhere on it we were already independent we wouldnt go for it because we would already be an independent reckon i suspect and were not and thats why we dont feel free enough in this political environment the kingdom of spain apart from being the most corrupt country in the world has tried to prevent us from vote you havent been to has anyone and if you think this is the most corrupt in the midst of most of the country or but thats not the issue the king of spain has tried to prevent a vote from taking place it has given orders to police the beat of people you saw the images all over the world and what you think of that is that. A place where you would like to stay in there would you really like to stay in a place where theyve tried to put in jail your leaders elected leaders where they try to beat up your grandmas and grandpas to try to preserve the place where you would like tried to attack the law your big problem no big snarling dogs the constitution of one thousand nine hundred Seventy Eight catalonia accepted overwhelmingly and which makes reference to the indissoluble unity of the spanish nation your own risky legal ground here you know that but that you know that thats exactly what you that exactly why you want to change it. Because if we thought that was unchangeable you were offered a commission to change the constitution and you just laugh at that not whats a commission if you compare it with the vote of the people first the killings will even those of dozens do you believe in Citizen Rights do you believe in peoples empowerment we do and thats why we think thats more important theres a lot of theres a lot but we think that after seven years of denials of constant and repeated denials by the Spanish Government we have a right to propose to our people to take a vote and to decide on that one counsel and printer so were just waiting for a sentry what were up one cattle and professor of constitutional law at the Autonomous University to raise a freshness thinks youre dead wrong she says independence is legally just not possible you cant simply hold a referendum and comply and proclaim independence the state has to be recognized by the u. N. Without recognition we would be just like Western Sahara or the palestinians or Northern Cyprus is that what you and i not as a fit pressure she was a colleague of mine because the teacher is the stuff yes i was a professor with her very close to her and i also taught about International History and from there we had many discussions now my experience as a professor as a doctorate in International History is that the people ultimately decide what they went to what they want to have which kind of state they want to live in and its up to the people to decide that and the laws can be changed if you can change the laws we would still have slavery and if we move your knowledge of womens votes no womens rights they were running out of time then why did the large fight in south africa i started the case of south africa for a long time i just want to ask your own final question go running right into the hands of the constitution against the last which were completely and. Fear obviously if you lose the elections december twenty first when you forget about this lets talk after the elections about us were going to win those elections we have won them over all the last elections weve won so why should we also win these were ready to go to the polls we love the polls we protect them with our bodies so lets go there lets vote and lets turn this into a plebiscite we accept the challenge now for bush good to have your conflicts. Meet young entrepreneurs eager to tackle novel challenges in our series founders valley. A race against the machines. A wall between progress and tradition. The. Founders value. Thirty minute spot. And enjoy. Hes reminded what that means on a daily basis presenter. She traveled across germany to meet other people. It seems as. Though i grew up in a white family in a white neighborhood it was definitely a challenge. She decided to put me up for adoption. So the main thing was to keep your head down and your mouth shut of course of the face like this i could never completely disappear if you see all these stereotypes about africa its good to see you. Do something for your country but youre still the black guy so i thought. Afro germany starting december tenth d. W. Health. And here in studio law. Solidarity. They fall by the wayside when the gap between rich and for grows. Life in an equal society is. The divide starting november fifteenth on d w. As you govern your country not from but end but the right to our correspondent news in central istanbul im joined by the helicopter did up his Political Correspondent on those stories in just a minute but first this news just in its all about the perspective closer d. W. News faster. This is due to the news coming soon five from for a land of Texas Church Shooting reportedly leaves at least twenty people to add a gunman opened fire on sunday services at a rule church in the u. S. State of texas witnesses say the children